On Thu, 18 Mar 2021, Jonathan Carter wrote:
I think as things stand now, every DD pretty much already has the entire Debian budget available at their disposal if they can think of a way to spend it that benefits the project.
I was reflecting on the way the Peertube funding was achieved.
There were enough people keen on that happening that if we'd each had an earmarked e.g. 1k budget to allocate, we could have just agreed it
amongst ourselves, and done it
On Thu, 18 Mar 2021, Philip Hands wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2021, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
I'm considering paying someone to identify useful
projects. That person could talk to various teams, make proposals based on
their own experience, and even run a poll among Debian developers.
I've been pondering how it might be possible to spend more of Debian's money, and it occurred to me that we could allocate a budget to each DD which they could spend on pretty-much anything
Encouraging people to pool their budgets to fund bigger things would hopefully result in them forming teams of mentors to oversee the work.
I really like your idea! I wonder if there would be some infrastructure
that would make it easy to describe projects and track how much money
has been allocated by the various DD.
But if we find something usable, we could have a volunteer in charge of entering the "votes" of the DD by adjusting a Debian pledge in a open
system (and have some associated ledger where the DD allocations are tracked).
I've thought about what such a system could look like, perhaps signed
commits to a salsa project or a simple site like mentors. I came to the conclusion that there's already a working system in place for counting
DD support of suggestions. debian-vote has proposals, low-bureaucracy seconders, and the Project Secretary validating signatures.
I propose creating an experimental debian-spending mailing list based on
the same rules to test this idea. The equivalent of the GR here would be
a filled out project proposal for consideration by the DPL or Freexian.
Another example is that debian-android-tools has all the DD availability
for sponsoring Kotlin uploads, and most initial work done by GSoC
students, but no-one had free time to work on it betwen Oct and Mar. Now
it turns out that no less than 3 other teams are depending/awaiting a
kotlin upload: Java, Freedombox for Jitsi, Games for Mindustry. That's a
lot of potential DDs who could have seconded a tender for a third-party contractor to bid on say a week to a month's work.
I think this will lower the barrier for proposals. I looked up what the current process is and it's literally "email the DPL and convince them", which could be offputting without knowing how many other people support
your idea. Similarly I would expect a lot of teams to know their own
problem areas but be unaware of the level of support outside the team
through multiple levels of reverse dependencies.
Hopefully that's enough to convince you, and it's clear I'm only
offering to do the administration, not make any actual decisions. I'd
also like to help the list get started in a personal capacity by digging
up old BudgetIdeas and writing up proposals say once a week.
I would be saddened if this system turned only into a way to give our
money to other free software projects instead of using that money to help
us towards our common mission.
On Fri, 02 Apr 2021, Phil Morrell wrote:
I think this will lower the barrier for proposals. I looked up what the current process is and it's literally "email the DPL and convince them", which could be offputting without knowing how many other people support your idea. Similarly I would expect a lot of teams to know their own problem areas but be unaware of the level of support outside the team through multiple levels of reverse dependencies.
It's certainly good to lower the barrier for proposals but for your Kotlin example, the issue is more "who will be paid to to the work"? Someone has to select a winning bid and having that kind of responsibility within Debian
is the historical friction point related to use of money in Debian.
IMO the bulk of the work is not in finding ideas, but on transforming
them into actionable projects
and on selecting which project can have the largest impact on Debian.
Please keep in mind that I'm proposing this list purely as a practical experiment, it does nothing that can't already be done elsewhere, and if
it doesn't work out after say 6 months, then so be it. All I'm looking
for is an indication that it would not be a complete waste of my time to
set up, that doing so has the potential to help Debian, and that some
DDs would be willing to review and Second proposals.
It's certainly good to lower the barrier for proposals but for your Kotlin example, the issue is more "who will be paid to to the work"? Someone has to
select a winning bid and having that kind of responsibility within Debian is the historical friction point related to use of money in Debian.
Isn't that the same issue you have for Freexian?
Presumably the Proposal
would be either an Executor or (implied by default) Reviewer by your terminology, so then the Seconds are agreeing who will review the work.
a point where that is a concern. For now I am happy giving more
visibility to actionable projects with *any* reasonable impact on
Debian.
On Sun, 04 Apr 2021, Phil Morrell wrote:
Please keep in mind that I'm proposing this list purely as a practical experiment, it does nothing that can't already be done elsewhere, and if
it doesn't work out after say 6 months, then so be it. All I'm looking
for is an indication that it would not be a complete waste of my time to set up, that doing so has the potential to help Debian, and that some
DDs would be willing to review and Second proposals.
I think it's important to experiment in this direction but for a low-key experimentation I'd rather go with a gitlab project where you file ideas
as issues, people vote up and down various ideas with the usual +1 -1
buttons (gitlab can then show you a sorted list by popularity). You can
have draft projects in text files and people can collaborate with MR on enhancement to those drafts.
We could have a "debian/spending-ideas" if you want so that all DD have
write access by default. We could restrict access to issues for project members (that automatically includes all DD + selected non-DD directly
added to the project).
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 10:14:50PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
We could have a "debian/spending-ideas" if you want so that all DD have write access by default. We could restrict access to issues for project members (that automatically includes all DD + selected non-DD directly added to the project).
Understood, I'm happy to organise it that way too if folks would prefer.
It just *seems to me* that the email workflow of seconds and inline
quoting is less structured and very familiar to DDs for fleshing out an
idea, perhaps augmented with an ad-hoc jitsi call.
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