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Debian and GitLab Open Source Partnership

From Donald Norwood@21:1/5 to debian-publicity on Sun Jul 25 11:50:01 2021

To: debian-project@lists.debian.org (debian-project)

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Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source
Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which
include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming
GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

One of the first items we are sharing is that GitLab has committed to a
Silver level sponsorship for #DebConf21, and Debian will be listed as an
Open Source Partner at their upcoming conference: GitLab Commit 2021.
More info and registration (free of cost) at https://gitlabcommitvirtual2021.com

With the sponsorship arrangement we are able to have a virtual booth at
the GitLab Commit Conference (#GitLabCommit) which runs from 4:00AM PDT,
August 3rd, 2021 through 11:59PM PDT, August 4th, 2021.

With many apologies for the short notice, we ask any Debian
Developers and Contributors who have available time if they would be
willing to assist in getting our booth up and running. The easiest and
quickest setup for us would be to select a series of slides that can
play on their main video player and a call button that will link to our
very own website. There are certain hours during August 3rd and 4th
where attendees are encouraged to visit the virtual booths so there's possibility to schedule live sessions or chat too.

Interested people please contact us in #debian-publicity or debian-publicity@lists.debian.org for more details.

Be Well,

-Donald

--
--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

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From Dominik George@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 25 14:50:02 2021

Hi,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

Without the intention to criticise the idea in general, has the responsible team considered any conflicts between GitLab's practices how they do open core rather than free software, and the DFSG? Are they compatible?

Will this partnership help improving the use and support of GitLab in Debian, i.e. will GitLab start supporting the GitLab packaging efforts in Debian, and help the Salsa team?

Cheers,
Nik

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From Agata Erminia Pennisi@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 25 15:20:01 2021

Dear Sir, Dear Madame,
we don't know each other and I'm not part of the Debian Project or GitLab.
I am only a Debian end user. I guess if the parties reached an agreement,
it was all written in a document. In order to avoid unpleasant and useless discussions, it is recommended to share the document. Unless the agreement
is confidential or it has not been written. I hope I have helped you.

Thank you Debian 🙂

Il dom 25 lug 2021, 14:36 Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> ha
scritto:

Hi,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

Without the intention to criticise the idea in general, has the
responsible team considered any conflicts between GitLab's practices how
they do open core rather than free software, and the DFSG? Are they compatible?

Will this partnership help improving the use and support of GitLab in
Debian, i.e. will GitLab start supporting the GitLab packaging efforts in Debian, and help the Salsa team?

Cheers,
Nik

Da: *Donald Norwood* <donald@debian.org>
Date: dom 25 lug 2021, 11:38
Subject: Debian and GitLab Open Source Partnership
To: debian-publicity <debian-publicity@lists.debian.org>, debian-project < debian-project@lists.debian.org>

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

One of the first items we are sharing is that GitLab has committed to a Silver level sponsorship for #DebConf21, and Debian will be listed as an
Open Source Partner at their upcoming conference: GitLab Commit 2021.
More info and registration (free of cost) at https://gitlabcommitvirtual2021.com

With the sponsorship arrangement we are able to have a virtual booth at
the GitLab Commit Conference (#GitLabCommit) which runs from 4:00AM PDT, August 3rd, 2021 through 11:59PM PDT, August 4th, 2021.

With many apologies for the short notice, we ask any Debian
Developers and Contributors who have available time if they would be
willing to assist in getting our booth up and running. The easiest and quickest setup for us would be to select a series of slides that can
play on their main video player and a call button that will link to our
very own website. There are certain hours during August 3rd and 4th
where attendees are encouraged to visit the virtual booths so there's possibility to schedule live sessions or chat too.

Interested people please contact us in #debian-publicity or debian-publicity@lists.debian.org for more details.

Be Well,

-Donald

--
--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

<div dir="auto"><div><div dir="auto">Dear Sir, Dear Madame,</div><div dir="auto">we don't know each other and I'm not part of the Debian Project or GitLab. I am only a Debian end user. I guess if the parties reached an agreement, it was all
written in a document. In order to avoid unpleasant and useless discussions, it is recommended to share the document. Unless the agreement is confidential or it has not been written. I hope I have helped you.</div><div dir="auto"> </div>Thank you
Debian 🙂 <div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il dom 25 lug 2021, 14:36 Dominik George <<a href="mailto:natureshadow@debian.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">natureshadow@debian.org</a>> ha scritto: </div><
blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, 

> Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source > Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions, > shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or 
> publicity channels. 
> 
> There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which > include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case > study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming 
> GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for > example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity > networks to promote each others work where applicable. 

Without the intention to criticise the idea in general, has the responsible team considered any conflicts between GitLab's practices how they do open core rather than free software, and the DFSG? Are they compatible? 

Will this partnership help improving the use and support of GitLab in Debian, i.e. will GitLab start supporting the GitLab packaging efforts in Debian, and help the Salsa team? 

Cheers, 
Nik </blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"> </div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family:sans-serif"> Da: Donald Norwood <<a href="mailto:donald@debian.org">donald@debian.org</a>> Date: dom 25 lug 2021, 11:38 Subject: Debian and GitLab Open
Source Partnership To: debian-publicity <<a href="mailto:debian-publicity@lists.debian.org">debian-publicity@lists.debian.org</a>>, debian-project <<a href="mailto:debian-project@lists.debian.org">debian-project@lists.debian.org</a>> </

 Dear all, Debian and GitLab

have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions, shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels. There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses
GitLab for a case study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming GitLab
Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity networks to promote each others work where applicable. One of the first items we are sharing is that
GitLab has committed to a Silver level sponsorship for #DebConf21, and Debian will be listed as an 
Open Source Partner at their upcoming conference: GitLab Commit 2021. More info and registration (free of cost) at <a href="https://
gitlabcommitvirtual2021.com/" style="font-family:sans-serif">https://gitlabcommitvirtual2021.com</a> With the sponsorship arrangement we are able to
have a virtual booth at the GitLab Commit Conference (#GitLabCommit) which runs from 4:00AM PDT, 
August 3rd, 2021 through 11:59PM PDT, August 4th, 2021. With many apologies for the short notice, we ask any Debian Developers and Contributors who have available time if they would be willing to assist in getting our booth up and
running. The easiest and quickest setup for us would be to select a series of slides that can play
on their main video player and a call button that will link to our very own website. There are certain hours during August 3rd and 4th where attendees are encouraged to visit the virtual booths so there's possibility to schedule live sessions or chat too. Interested people please contact us in #debian-publicity or <a href="mailto:debian-publicity@lists.debian.org" style=
"font-family:sans-serif">debian-publicity@lists.debian.org</a> for more details. Be Well, -Donald 
-- -- - ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚�
��⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174 ⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05 
</blockquote></div></div></div>

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From Laura Arjona Reina@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 25 16:50:01 2021

Hi all

El 25 de julio de 2021 15:07:38 CEST, Agata Erminia Pennisi <agataerminiapennisi@gmail.com> escribió:

Dear Sir, Dear Madame,
we don't know each other and I'm not part of the Debian Project or GitLab.
I am only a Debian end user. I guess if the parties reached an agreement,
it was all written in a document. In order to avoid unpleasant and useless >discussions, it is recommended to share the document. Unless the agreement
is confidential or it has not been written. I hope I have helped you.

Thank you Debian 🙂

Thanks all for the comments.
For now, what we have is 'mutual promotion of our conferences', and we'll send a micronews about it. If we get people to stuff the booth, it's also an opportunity to promote Debian.

They are interested in writing an article about how Debian uses Gitlab. We chose to participate on it to ensure that the article attention to the Debian needs and perspective, and how could GitLab improve or help towards them ;) This didn't started yet,
we'll contact the Debian teams related to Salsa, Salsa-CI soon.

Kind regards

Il dom 25 lug 2021, 14:36 Dominik George <natureshadow@debian.org> ha >scritto:

Hi,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source
Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or
publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which
include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming
GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for
example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

Without the intention to criticise the idea in general, has the
responsible team considered any conflicts between GitLab's practices how
they do open core rather than free software, and the DFSG? Are they
compatible?

Will this partnership help improving the use and support of GitLab in
Debian, i.e. will GitLab start supporting the GitLab packaging efforts in
Debian, and help the Salsa team?

Cheers,
Nik

Da: *Donald Norwood* <donald@debian.org>
Date: dom 25 lug 2021, 11:38
Subject: Debian and GitLab Open Source Partnership
To: debian-publicity <debian-publicity@lists.debian.org>, debian-project < >> debian-project@lists.debian.org>

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source
Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or
publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which
include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming
GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for
example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

One of the first items we are sharing is that GitLab has committed to a
Silver level sponsorship for #DebConf21, and Debian will be listed as an
Open Source Partner at their upcoming conference: GitLab Commit 2021.
More info and registration (free of cost) at
https://gitlabcommitvirtual2021.com

With the sponsorship arrangement we are able to have a virtual booth at
the GitLab Commit Conference (#GitLabCommit) which runs from 4:00AM PDT,
August 3rd, 2021 through 11:59PM PDT, August 4th, 2021.

With many apologies for the short notice, we ask any Debian
Developers and Contributors who have available time if they would be
willing to assist in getting our booth up and running. The easiest and
quickest setup for us would be to select a series of slides that can
play on their main video player and a call button that will link to our
very own website. There are certain hours during August 3rd and 4th
where attendees are encouraged to visit the virtual booths so there's
possibility to schedule live sessions or chat too.

Interested people please contact us in #debian-publicity or
debian-publicity@lists.debian.org for more details.

Be Well,

-Donald

--
--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

--
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona
Sent with K-9 mail

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From Hanno 'Rince' Wagner@21:1/5 to Donald Norwood on Sun Jul 25 18:00:01 2021

Hi Donald!

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, Donald Norwood wrote:

include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming

would you mind to tell more about this "case study"? do you use
tracking mechanisms about what the developer use gitlab for or how
they use it? if so, is this accepted by everybody within the EU
according to the GDPR?

I do not want to sound negative, but to be informed about that there
are tracking mechanisms and they wil be used for analysis of peoples
behaviour is nothing I would like to be part of without consent,
especially if gitlab is meant as the platform to develop and maintain
packages.

best regards, Hanno Wagner
--
| Hanno Wagner | Member of the HTML Writers Guild | Rince@IRC |
| Eine gewerbliche Nutzung meiner Email-Adressen ist nicht gestattet! |
| 74 a3 53 cc 0b 19 - we did it! | Generation @ |
#"Wahh! Ist das alles kompliziert! Ich will meine Blocks-World!"
# -- Marit Hansen, Haeckse, LISPelnd

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From Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Donald Norwood on Sun Jul 25 18:40:01 2021

Donald Norwood <donald@debian.org> writes:

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

There are several segments for this upcoming and future endeavor which include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming GitLab Commit 2021 Conference, mutual support with media (peertube for example), and a hand in hand expansion of both our press/publicity
networks to promote each others work where applicable.

One of the first items we are sharing is that GitLab has committed to a Silver level sponsorship for #DebConf21, and Debian will be listed as an
Open Source Partner at their upcoming conference: GitLab Commit 2021.
More info and registration (free of cost) at https://gitlabcommitvirtual2021.com

With the sponsorship arrangement we are able to have a virtual booth at
the GitLab Commit Conference (#GitLabCommit) which runs from 4:00AM PDT, August 3rd, 2021 through 11:59PM PDT, August 4th, 2021.

With many apologies for the short notice, we ask any Debian
Developers and Contributors who have available time if they would be
willing to assist in getting our booth up and running. The easiest and quickest setup for us would be to select a series of slides that can
play on their main video player and a call button that will link to our
very own website. There are certain hours during August 3rd and 4th
where attendees are encouraged to visit the virtual booths so there's possibility to schedule live sessions or chat too.

Interested people please contact us in #debian-publicity or debian-publicity@lists.debian.org for more details.

Out of the blue, without any more context and content, I am not sure to
be happy with this news.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian Members being consulted.

Last but not least, what kind of data would be shared regarding how we
use gitlab in Debian?

Cheers,
--
PEB

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From Geert Stappers@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 25 20:10:02 2021

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 06:19:37PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott B�cue wrote:

Donald Norwood <donald@debian.org> writes:

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

...

Out of the blue, without any more context and content,

???

"Debian" and "Gitlab" are speaking with each other
since the very start of "Salsa".

I am not sure to be happy with this news.

To me is the news that "press" and "marketing" are more involved.
Because I assume good faith, I allow meself to focus on other stuff
in (Debian) life.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian Members being consulted.

Yes, a DD is allowed to represent the project.

Last but not least, what kind of data would be shared regarding how we
use gitlab in Debian?

Please give the (humble) Salsa admins time to elaborate.
I have no insight information about "the data",
but imagine (dull??) statistics on accounts, active accounts, projects,
active projects.
I do trust my fellow Debian Developers to deal wisely with it.
For (gory??) details I recomment to join the Salsa admin team.

Groeten
Geert Stappers
DD
Thinks that peb made a valid request,
has no idea what would be a valid answer to that request.
--
Silence is hard to parse

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From Micha Lenk@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 25 21:30:01 2021

Hi Donald and publicity team,

thank you for taking initiative on talking about the upcoming GitLab
Open Source Partnership. This is great news and I am curious to see how
Gitlab is now helping us to spread the word about Debian and its mission.

Best regards,
Micha

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From Donald Norwood@21:1/5 to Hanno 'Rince' Wagner on Mon Jul 26 02:00:02 2021

Hi Hanno!

On 7/25/21 11:36 AM, Hanno 'Rince' Wagner wrote:

Hi Donald!

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, Donald Norwood wrote:

include a few requests from them on: How Debian uses GitLab for a case
study, some highlighting and promotion from us regarding their upcoming

would you mind to tell more about this "case study"? do you use
tracking mechanisms about what the developer use gitlab for or how
they use it? if so, is this accepted by everybody within the EU
according to the GDPR?

I do not want to sound negative, but to be informed about that there
are tracking mechanisms and they wil be used for analysis of peoples behaviour is nothing I would like to be part of without consent,
especially if gitlab is meant as the platform to develop and maintain packages.

Your concerns have merit, especially if there were tracking elements or
the exposure of any Personal Identifiable Information (PII) made
available. However, the inquires for the Case Study will likely be to
see how Debian uses GitLab and perhaps questions as to why we chose them
and so on, any information shared would come from our own DDs and teams
that work on or with GitLab. I don't think any information we provide
them will drill down to specific individuals, this seems more like
metrics and analytics with a personal touch on the end.

I would imagine the completed Case Study is mutually beneficial for each
of our organizations in light of documenting how an organization of our
size uses GitLab and for them showcasing how they are able to provide
services.

Be well,

-Donald

--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

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From Donald Norwood@21:1/5 to =?UTF-8?Q?Pierre-Elliott_B=c3=a9cue on Mon Jul 26 02:30:01 2021

Copy: debian-publicity@lists.debian.org (debian-publicity)
Copy: debian-project@lists.debian.org

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --IWx51W9xHyj4hG63KaZ7YMFzt3aJa7hVQ
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Pierre,

On 7/25/21 12:19 PM, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Out of the blue, without any more context and content, I am not sure to
be happy with this news.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian Members being consulted.

Last but not least, what kind of data would be shared regarding how we
use gitlab in Debian?

Apologies if you thought this was out of the blue, we are currently and
still in the process of bringing the awareness of the partnership to the
community prior to the main announcement, but as with any news it is
about the timing of the message delivery.

Rest assured there were several hands on our side that went into the
initial discussions from Debian Partners to DebConf Sponsors, to the
DPL, and Press, all of us tasked with seeing things through that will
benefit the project.

We have many Partners[1] working with and helping to support Debian,
this particular partnership starts with each of us promoting each others conferences, sponsorships, and then expanding the relationship forward
into the future with the other items mentioned.

The data sharing as I understand it is only toward a Case Study of how
Debian uses GitLab, it would be with information that we provide to them
on our use, selection, and goals. As more information about the Case
Study becomes available we will be sure to share it with the community.

[1]https://www.debian.org/partners/

Be well,

-Donald

--
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

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From Alexander Wirt@21:1/5 to Geert Stappers on Mon Jul 26 08:30:02 2021

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:59:26PM +0200, Geert Stappers wrote:

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 06:19:37PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott B�cue wrote:

Donald Norwood <donald@debian.org> writes:

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions, shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or publicity channels.

...

Out of the blue, without any more context and content,

???

"Debian" and "Gitlab" are speaking with each other
since the very start of "Salsa".

I am not sure to be happy with this news.

To me is the news that "press" and "marketing" are more involved.
Because I assume good faith, I allow meself to focus on other stuff
in (Debian) life.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian Members being consulted.

Yes, a DD is allowed to represent the project.

Last but not least, what kind of data would be shared regarding how we
use gitlab in Debian?

Please give the (humble) Salsa admins time to elaborate.
I have no insight information about "the data",
but imagine (dull??) statistics on accounts, active accounts, projects, active projects.
I do trust my fellow Debian Developers to deal wisely with it.
For (gory??) details I recomment to join the Salsa admin team.

To be honest - and to my suprise - we weren't involved in this
discussions. We don't share any personal data and we won't do that.
We share rough numbers (numbers of projects, users,
groups, storage used), but we also do that regulary in talks (at least
when there were real conferences).

Alex - Salsa Admim

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From Hanno 'Rince' Wagner@21:1/5 to Donald Norwood on Mon Jul 26 08:40:01 2021

Hi Donald,

On Sun, 25 Jul 2021, Donald Norwood wrote:

Your concerns have merit, especially if there were tracking elements or
the exposure of any Personal Identifiable Information (PII) made
available. However, the inquires for the Case Study will likely be to
see how Debian uses GitLab and perhaps questions as to why we chose them
and so on, any information shared would come from our own DDs and teams
that work on or with GitLab. I don't think any information we provide
them will drill down to specific individuals, this seems more like
metrics and analytics with a personal touch on the end.

Okay, thank you for the answer. This is then more a questionnaire and
less analysis of technical data. That is fine with me and if that
questionnaire is available I'll be happy to answer the questions ;)

best regards, Hanno Wagner
--
| Hanno Wagner | Member of the HTML Writers Guild | Rince@IRC |
| Eine gewerbliche Nutzung meiner Email-Adressen ist nicht gestattet! |
| 74 a3 53 cc 0b 19 - we did it! | Generation @ |

# "Sie koennen den Benutzer jetzt ausschalten."
# -- inspiriert durch eine Signature von holger@mms.de (Holger Koepke)

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From Adrian Bunk@21:1/5 to Donald Norwood on Mon Jul 26 08:40:01 2021

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 08:23:21PM -0400, Donald Norwood wrote:

...
On 7/25/21 12:19 PM, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Out of the blue, without any more context and content, I am not sure to
be happy with this news.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian Members being consulted.
...

Apologies if you thought this was out of the blue, we are currently and
still in the process of bringing the awareness of the partnership to the
community prior to the main announcement, but as with any news it is
about the timing of the message delivery.

Rest assured there were several hands on our side that went into the
initial discussions from Debian Partners to DebConf Sponsors, to the
DPL, and Press, all of us tasked with seeing things through that will
benefit the project.
...

Debian as a project actively promoting open core software would be quite
a change since so far Debian was the major distribution pushing the most
for a system with only free software as defined by the Debian Free
Software Guidelines.

The Social Contract we all agreed to states that "Our priorities are our
users and free software".

There are many developers, and also many companies some of them close to Debian, for whom fully free software is a mission.
Debian promoting a company with an open core business model is a slap
in the face for many people.

Why has such a major change for the whole project not been discussed
with all developers?

Be well,

-Donald

cu
Adrian

BTW:
It is clear that open core software whose open source version is under a DFSG-free licence is welcome in Debian, users are free to use non-free
software on Debian, and mentioning sponsors at an appropriate place has
not been controversial.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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From Marc Haber@21:1/5 to Adrian Bunk on Mon Jul 26 12:20:01 2021

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 09:13:53AM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:

Debian as a project actively promoting open core software would be quite
a change since so far Debian was the major distribution pushing the most
for a system with only free software as defined by the Debian Free
Software Guidelines.

I agree. As long as we still ship installation DVDs that won't cleanly
install on the majority of end-user workstation hardware and even on a
sizeable portion of server hardware, call this a feature and dismiss the working DVD image as "unofficial and not part of Debian proper" this
looks at least a bit skewed.

There are many developers, and also many companies some of them close to Debian, for whom fully free software is a mission.
Debian promoting a company with an open core business model is a slap
in the face for many people.

Alone going for Gitlab as the software platform for Salsa was
problematic, but OK for me due to lack of a viable alternative.

Greetings
Marc

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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From Jonathan Carter@21:1/5 to Marc Haber on Mon Jul 26 13:20:01 2021

Hi Marc

On 2021/07/26 12:05, Marc Haber wrote:

Debian as a project actively promoting open core software would be quite
a change since so far Debian was the major distribution pushing the most
for a system with only free software as defined by the Debian Free
Software Guidelines.

I agree. As long as we still ship installation DVDs that won't cleanly install on the majority of end-user workstation hardware and even on a sizeable portion of server hardware, call this a feature and dismiss the working DVD image as "unofficial and not part of Debian proper" this
looks at least a bit skewed.

Do you mind explaining your statement?

As far as shipping non-free software/firmware/drivers are concerned, the
Debian Free Software Guides and Social Contract is very explicit about
what we can do in what we call Debian. It's a very far stretch to
compare DFSG free software, which the upstream also has non-free
versions of, to including non-free software on any kind of installation
media.

-Jonathan

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From Ansgar@21:1/5 to Jonathan Carter on Mon Jul 26 16:00:02 2021

On Mon, 2021-07-26 at 12:43 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

Do you mind explaining your statement?

As far as shipping non-free software/firmware/drivers are concerned,
the Debian Free Software Guides and Social Contract is very explicit
about what we can do in what we call Debian.

It is indeed very explicit about including non-free packages if
possible:

+---
| We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of the packages in
| these areas and determine if they can distribute the packages on
| their CDs.
+---

I believe the licenses of most firmware should pose no problem for
their inclusion on Debian's CD images.

Ansgar

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From Jonathan Carter@21:1/5 to Ansgar on Mon Jul 26 18:10:01 2021

Hi Ansgar

On 2021/07/26 15:50, Ansgar wrote:

It is indeed very explicit about including non-free packages if
possible:

+---
| We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of the packages in
| these areas and determine if they can distribute the packages on
| their CDs.
+---

I believe the licenses of most firmware should pose no problem for
their inclusion on Debian's CD images.

The text you quoted covers 3rd party distributors who wish to include
the firmware on media that they would distribute (which would not be
considered official Debian media either).

For official media, it would go against #1 of the SC and (depending on
the exact firmware) at least #2 and #3 of the DGSG.

-Jonathan

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From Ansgar@21:1/5 to Jonathan Carter on Mon Jul 26 21:20:02 2021

On Mon, 2021-07-26 at 16:56 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

On 2021/07/26 15:50, Ansgar wrote:

It is indeed very explicit about including non-free packages if
possible:

+---

We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of the
packages in
these areas and determine if they can distribute the packages on
their CDs.

+---

I believe the licenses of most firmware should pose no problem for
their inclusion on Debian's CD images.

The text you quoted covers 3rd party distributors who wish to
includethe firmware on media that they would distribute (which would
not be considered official Debian media either).

It doesn't say "3rd party CD manufacturers", so I assume it means all
groups creating CD images.

For official media, it would go against #1 of the SC and (depending
on the exact firmware) at least #2 and #3 of the DGSG.

Including files for optional use does not imply that non-free
components are required, so it doesn't violate SC #1: We already
include non-free packages in the archive. Surely taking the archive and
putting it on a BluRay doesn't turn the free system available from the
archive into a non-free system that requires use of non-free
components.

Obviously packages in non-free don't need to comply with the DFSG, no
matter whether including in the archive or on BluRay images.

Ansgar

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From Jonathan Carter@21:1/5 to Ansgar on Mon Jul 26 22:20:02 2021

On 2021/07/26 20:27, Ansgar wrote:

Obviously packages in non-free don't need to comply with the DFSG

Indeed they don't, because non-free isn't formally part of Debian.

-Jonathan

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From =?UTF-8?Q?Louis-Philippe_V=c3=a9ron@21:1/5 to Alexander Wirt on Mon Jul 26 23:10:02 2021

This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --P94RiSOaQN6jIBmGl3xri7eTb4cJh5nzt
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 2021-07-26 01 h 50, Alexander Wirt wrote:

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 07:59:26PM +0200, Geert Stappers wrote:

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 06:19:37PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Donald Norwood <donald@debian.org> writes:

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source
Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or >>>> publicity channels.

...

Out of the blue, without any more context and content,

???

"Debian" and "Gitlab" are speaking with each other
since the very start of "Salsa".

I am not sure to be happy with this news.

To me is the news that "press" and "marketing" are more involved.
Because I assume good faith, I allow meself to focus on other stuff
in (Debian) life.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian >>> Members being consulted.

Yes, a DD is allowed to represent the project.

Last but not least, what kind of data would be shared regarding how we
use gitlab in Debian?

Please give the (humble) Salsa admins time to elaborate.
I have no insight information about "the data",
but imagine (dull??) statistics on accounts, active accounts, projects,
active projects.
I do trust my fellow Debian Developers to deal wisely with it.
For (gory??) details I recomment to join the Salsa admin team.

To be honest - and to my suprise - we weren't involved in this
discussions. We don't share any personal data and we won't do that.
We share rough numbers (numbers of projects, users,
groups, storage used), but we also do that regulary in talks (at least
when there were real conferences).

Alex - Salsa Admim

I was under the assumption the Salsa Team would somehow benefit from
this partnership in some way (technical help, extra resources, etc.),
but I guess it's not the case. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm not sure I understand what Debian has to gain from this "Partnership".

More media exposure? I don't think we really need it: the Publicity Team
was already doing a great job.

More money? Gitlab is a silver sponsor for DebConf21, but so are ARM,
Ubuntu, HRT, Two Sigma and Globo.

Although I'm happy Gitlab the git forge exists, Gitlab the enterprise
(Gitlab BV) is a for-profit, venture-capital backed entity. If we're OK partnering with them for more exposure [1], why are we not partnering
with other similar enterprises?

DSA has been using Puppet forever to maintain their infrastructure. Why
not strike a partnership with them?

If anything, I think this muddies Debian's image more than promotes it.
Had Gitlab BV been a non-profit, I don't think this would've been a
problem to me.

:(

[1]: Clearly this is rhetorical, I'm not.

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Louis-Philippe Véronneau
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ pollo@debian.org / veronneau.org
⠈⠳⣄

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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From Steve McIntyre@21:1/5 to Ansgar on Tue Jul 27 01:10:01 2021

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 08:27:33PM +0200, Ansgar wrote:

On Mon, 2021-07-26 at 16:56 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

For official media, it would go against #1 of the SC and (depending
on the exact firmware) at least #2 and #3 of the DGSG.

Including files for optional use does not imply that non-free
components are required, so it doesn't violate SC #1: We already
include non-free packages in the archive. Surely taking the archive and >putting it on a BluRay doesn't turn the free system available from the >archive into a non-free system that requires use of non-free
components.

Obviously packages in non-free don't need to comply with the DFSG, no
matter whether including in the archive or on BluRay images.

Can we please stop exploring this rabbit hole until after the bullseye
release?

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com < liw> everything I know about UK hotels I learned from "Fawlty Towers"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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From Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Donald Norwood on Wed Jul 28 13:10:02 2021

Hi Donald,

Thanks for taking the time to answer to me, and sorry that I did not
reply earlier, I'm a bit swamped IRL. :)

Donald Norwood <donald@debian.org> writes:

Hi Pierre,

On 7/25/21 12:19 PM, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Out of the blue, without any more context and content, I am not sure to
be happy with this news.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian
Members being consulted.

Last but not least, what kind of data would be shared regarding how we
use gitlab in Debian?

Apologies if you thought this was out of the blue, we are currently and
still in the process of bringing the awareness of the partnership to the
community prior to the main announcement, but as with any news it is
about the timing of the message delivery.

Rest assured there were several hands on our side that went into the
initial discussions from Debian Partners to DebConf Sponsors, to the
DPL, and Press, all of us tasked with seeing things through that will
benefit the project.

We have many Partners[1] working with and helping to support Debian,
this particular partnership starts with each of us promoting each others conferences, sponsorships, and then expanding the relationship forward
into the future with the other items mentioned.

The data sharing as I understand it is only toward a Case Study of how
Debian uses GitLab, it would be with information that we provide to them
on our use, selection, and goals. As more information about the Case
Study becomes available we will be sure to share it with the community.

[1]https://www.debian.org/partners/

It is not my objective to make things change or to put the principle of partnership into question. But to me, promoting (ie advertising) Gitlab activities is a bit more than what we do for other partners. Am I wrong
here? I could have missed some things.

Thanks!
--
PEB

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From Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue@21:1/5 to Geert Stappers on Wed Jul 28 13:10:02 2021

Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> writes:

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 06:19:37PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Donald Norwood <donald@debian.org> writes:

Dear all,

Debian and GitLab have been in discussion regarding an Open Source
Partnership toward which we will jointly produce mutual promotions,
shared stories, and announcements using both organizations press and/or
publicity channels.

...

Out of the blue, without any more context and content,

???

"Debian" and "Gitlab" are speaking with each other
since the very start of "Salsa".

Interacting on a technical aspect because we use gitlab is far from
promoting what Gitlab does.

I am not sure to be happy with this news.

To me is the news that "press" and "marketing" are more involved.
Because I assume good faith, I allow meself to focus on other stuff
in (Debian) life.

I also assume good faith. But Debian ang gitlab going on the promotion
path, even if done in good faith, is not necessarily something that
makes me happy.

To me, such a partnership is something quite stronger than sponsorship
and I'd be a bit ill-at-ease with it being done without the whole Debian
Members being consulted.

Yes, a DD is allowed to represent the project.

I did not ask such a question, but rather expressed that Debian promoting Gitlab would be something worth prodding the whole project, IMHO.

--
PEB

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