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  • Proposal IRC meeting DPT

    From Emmanuel Arias@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 00:10:01 2024
    Hi team,

    As the Louis-Philippe and Andreas response to my last mail [0]
    I would like to propose a (regular?) IRC meeting to try to organize
    the work inside the team. I would like to propose an IRC meeting
    on 5 July, perhaps a good time could be around 12PM UTC and 4PM UTC?
    That date and time work for you? Any different idea, time, hour is
    welcome.

    I would like to propose the next points:
    * List of packages that need to be removed [1] and how could we tackle
    them.
    * Effort needed to fix py3.12 or should be go directly to 3.13?
    * Check possible agenda for Python BoF for DebConf2024.

    This is not the final agenda for this possible meeting, I would like
    to hear your opinion first :-)

    [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2024/06/msg00045.html
    [1] https://wiki.debian.org/Python/Dead%20Batteries
    [2] https://pad.dc24.debconf.org/p/python-team-bof


    Cheers,
    Emmanuel

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  • From weepingclown@21:1/5 to Emmanuel Arias on Sat Jun 22 00:20:01 2024
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    Hi,

    I do support the idea of an IRC meeting. although the availability of others (maybe even myself) is something I can't comment on. But I still think trying this out, at the very least, would be nice. Hopefully this can be a catalyst for finishing up the 3.
    12 migration. 3.13 migration is probably a topic suited for the debconf BoF.

    Best,
    Ananthu

    On 21 June 2024 10:06:47 pm UTC, Emmanuel Arias <eamanu@debian.org> wrote:
    Hi team,

    As the Louis-Philippe and Andreas response to my last mail [0]
    I would like to propose a (regular?) IRC meeting to try to organize
    the work inside the team. I would like to propose an IRC meeting
    on 5 July, perhaps a good time could be around 12PM UTC and 4PM UTC?
    That date and time work for you? Any different idea, time, hour is
    welcome.

    I would like to propose the next points:
    * List of packages that need to be removed [1] and how could we tackle
    them.
    * Effort needed to fix py3.12 or should be go directly to 3.13?
    * Check possible agenda for Python BoF for DebConf2024.

    This is not the final agenda for this possible meeting, I would like
    to hear your opinion first :-)

    [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2024/06/msg00045.html
    [1] https://wiki.debian.org/Python/Dead%20Batteries
    [2] https://pad.dc24.debconf.org/p/python-team-bof


    Cheers,
    Emmanuel

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    <html><head></head><body><div dir="auto">Hi,<br><br>I do support the idea of an IRC meeting. although the availability of others (maybe even myself) is something I can't comment on. But I still think trying this out, at the very least, would be nice.
    Hopefully this can be a catalyst for finishing up the 3.12 migration. 3.13 migration is probably a topic suited for the debconf BoF.<br><br>Best,<br>Ananthu</div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="auto">On 21 June 2024 10:06:47 pm UTC, Emmanuel
    Arias &lt;eamanu@debian.org&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
    <pre class="k9mail"><div dir="auto">Hi team,<br><br>As the Louis-Philippe and Andreas response to my last mail [0]<br>I would like to propose a (regular?) IRC meeting to try to organize<br>the work inside the team. I would like to propose an IRC meeting<
    on 5 July, perhaps a good time could be around 12PM UTC and 4PM UTC?<br>That date and time work for you? Any different idea, time, hour is<br>welcome.<br><br>I would like to propose the next points:<br>* List of packages that need to be removed [1]
    and how could we tackle<br>them.<br>* Effort needed to fix py3.12 or should be go directly to 3.13?<br>* Check possible agenda for Python BoF for DebConf2024.<br><br>This is not the final agenda for this possible meeting, I would like<br>to hear your
    opinion first :-)<br><br>[0] <a href="https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2024/06/msg00045.html">https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2024/06/msg00045.html</a><br>[1] <a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Python/Dead%20Batteries">https://wiki.debian.org/
    Python/Dead%20Batteries</a><br>[2] <a href="https://pad.dc24.debconf.org/p/python-team-bof">https://pad.dc24.debconf.org/p/python-team-bof</a><br><br><br>Cheers,<br>Emmanuel<br></div></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>
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  • From Emmanuel Arias@21:1/5 to weepingclown on Sat Jun 22 03:10:01 2024
    Hi,

    Thanks for your reply. Yes, day and time it's just a proposal.

    Cheers,
    Emmanuel
    On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 10:16:51PM +0000, weepingclown wrote:
    Hi,

    I do support the idea of an IRC meeting. although the availability of others (maybe even myself) is something I can't comment on. But I still think trying this out, at the very least, would be nice. Hopefully this can be a catalyst for finishing up the
    3.12 migration. 3.13 migration is probably a topic suited for the debconf BoF.

    Best,
    Ananthu

    On 21 June 2024 10:06:47 pm UTC, Emmanuel Arias <eamanu@debian.org> wrote: >Hi team,

    As the Louis-Philippe and Andreas response to my last mail [0]
    I would like to propose a (regular?) IRC meeting to try to organize
    the work inside the team. I would like to propose an IRC meeting
    on 5 July, perhaps a good time could be around 12PM UTC and 4PM UTC?
    That date and time work for you? Any different idea, time, hour is
    welcome.

    I would like to propose the next points:
    * List of packages that need to be removed [1] and how could we tackle >them.
    * Effort needed to fix py3.12 or should be go directly to 3.13?
    * Check possible agenda for Python BoF for DebConf2024.

    This is not the final agenda for this possible meeting, I would like
    to hear your opinion first :-)

    [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2024/06/msg00045.html
    [1] https://wiki.debian.org/Python/Dead%20Batteries
    [2] https://pad.dc24.debconf.org/p/python-team-bof


    Cheers,
    Emmanuel

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  • From Mechtilde@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 08:40:01 2024
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  • From Matthias Klose@21:1/5 to Emmanuel Arias on Mon Jun 24 10:50:01 2024
    On 22.06.24 00:06, Emmanuel Arias wrote:
    Hi team,

    As the Louis-Philippe and Andreas response to my last mail [0]
    I would like to propose a (regular?) IRC meeting to try to organize
    the work inside the team. I would like to propose an IRC meeting
    on 5 July, perhaps a good time could be around 12PM UTC and 4PM UTC?
    That date and time work for you? Any different idea, time, hour is
    welcome.

    I would like to propose the next points:
    * List of packages that need to be removed [1] and how could we tackle
    them.
    * Effort needed to fix py3.12 or should be go directly to 3.13?

    The current status is tracked in https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1061188

    it's now uploaded to unstable, and we'll start doing the binNMUs.

    Going directly to 3.13 is really not an option, Debian is relying on the upstream status of many packages, something that Debian cannot do on
    it's own.

    * Check possible agenda for Python BoF for DebConf2024.

    3.13 definitely is a topic for the Python BoF, especially when trying to default to 3.13 for the next Debian release. I will be there for the two
    last days of DebCamp, and will have time to work on any 3.13
    preparations. I know, Stefano will be there as well, and hopefully not
    only involved with the video team ;p

    Matthias

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  • From Matthias Klose@21:1/5 to Matthias Klose on Sat Jun 29 10:50:01 2024
    On 24.06.24 10:42, Matthias Klose wrote:
    On 22.06.24 00:06, Emmanuel Arias wrote:
    Hi team,

    As the Louis-Philippe and Andreas response to my last mail [0]
    I would like to propose a (regular?) IRC meeting to try to organize
    the work inside the team. I would like to propose an IRC meeting
    on 5 July, perhaps a good time could be around 12PM UTC and 4PM UTC?
    That date and time work for you? Any different idea, time, hour is
    welcome.

    I would like to propose the next points:
    * List of packages that need to be removed [1] and how could we tackle
    them.
    * Effort needed to fix py3.12 or should be go directly to 3.13?

    The current status is tracked in https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1061188

    it's now uploaded to unstable, and we'll start doing the binNMUs.

    binNMUs are now done, next thing is to get python3-defaults migrating,
    filing bug reports and fixing for all the failed autopkg tests triggered
    by https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/python3-defaults

    plus looking at the messages on the same page like

    migrating python3/3.12.2-1/amd64 to testing makes FOO uninstallable

    and fixing those.

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  • From Scott Kitterman@21:1/5 to Alexandre Detiste on Sat Jun 29 18:00:01 2024
    I would say no. Distutils is going to be with us for quite some time, even though it's no longer part of the standard distribution.

    Scott K

    On June 29, 2024 2:07:56 PM UTC, Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> wrote:
    Hi,

    Should the severity of the distutils removal bugs be bumped now ?
    Example such bug: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1065939


    Greetings

    Le sam. 29 juin 2024 à 10:46, Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org> a écrit :
    binNMUs are now done, next thing is to get python3-defaults migrating,
    filing bug reports and fixing for all the failed autopkg tests triggered
    by https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/python3-defaults

    plus looking at the messages on the same page like

    migrating python3/3.12.2-1/amd64 to testing makes FOO uninstallable

    and fixing those.


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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 29 10:36:41 2024
    Scott,

    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 8:58:09 AM MST Scott Kitterman wrote:
    I would say no. Distutils is going to be with us for quite some time, even though it's no longer part of the standard distribution.

    Scott K

    Can you please elaborate on this some more? As a maintainer of a couple of packages that use distutils in some fashion I would appreciate understanding the detail of what is happening with distutils in Debian.

    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org
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  • From Scott Kitterman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 29 14:29:06 2024
    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 1:36:41 PM EDT Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Scott,

    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 8:58:09 AM MST Scott Kitterman wrote:
    I would say no. Distutils is going to be with us for quite some time,
    even
    though it's no longer part of the standard distribution.

    Scott K

    Can you please elaborate on this some more? As a maintainer of a couple of packages that use distutils in some fashion I would appreciate understanding the detail of what is happening with distutils in Debian.

    I can't say for sure. I am assuming we will keep it in Debian in the short term independent of the Python interpreter packages, since removing it would break so many other packages.

    According to codesearch.d.n over 600 packages reference disutils in their
    code. That doesn't mean that they all use it, but it's a lot of packages.

    I think it's smart to work with upstreams to migrate away from it ASAP, since it isn't going to stick around forever, but I don't know the timeline.

    Of course, if no one volunteers to do the work to seperate it out of python3- stdlib-extensions, then it might come up pretty soon. Is anyone planning on working on this (I confess I thought someone already had).

    Scott K
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  • From Soren Stoutner@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 29 12:10:54 2024
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    --nextPart3912631.flHnXpF0lk
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

    Thanks for the followup information.

    For reference, one of the packages I maintain, electrum, only uses one command from
    distutils, which compares version numbers to determine if there is a new upstream release.
    Upstream decided to simply incorporate that distutils file with that one command into their
    own codebase and maintain it themselves going forward. The code itself needs little
    modifications over time, so it shouldn’t be too difficult for them to maintain it.

    The other packages I work on that use distutils are qtwebengine-opensource-src and qt6-
    webengine. qtwebengine-opensource-src is version 5 of Qt WebEngine. Qt WebEngine is a
    highly-modified fork of Chromium. Chromium contains distutils, which I believe it is only
    used as part of the developer tools that inspects web pages. They are actively working on
    removing the dependency on distutils.

    https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40283283[1]

    Once Chromium has removed distutils, this will eventually filter down to a future qt6-
    webengine release. qtwebengine-opensource-src is EOL, and is unlikely to receive an
    upstream change that removes distutils, but once Debian transitions to KDE 6 as the
    default, qtwebengine-opensource-src probably won’t be an issue anymore.

    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 11:29:06 AM MST Scott Kitterman wrote:
    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 1:36:41 PM EDT Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Scott,

    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 8:58:09 AM MST Scott Kitterman wrote:
    I would say no. Distutils is going to be with us for quite some time, even
    though it's no longer part of the standard distribution.

    Scott K

    Can you please elaborate on this some more? As a maintainer of a couple of packages that use distutils in some fashion I would appreciate understanding
    the detail of what is happening with distutils in Debian.

    I can't say for sure. I am assuming we will keep it in Debian in the short term independent of the Python interpreter packages, since removing it would break so many other packages.

    According to codesearch.d.n over 600 packages reference disutils in their code. That doesn't mean that they all use it, but it's a lot of packages.

    I think it's smart to work with upstreams to migrate away from it ASAP, since it isn't going to stick around forever, but I don't know the timeline.

    Of course, if no one volunteers to do the work to seperate it out of python3- stdlib-extensions, then it might come up pretty soon. Is anyone planning on working on this (I confess I thought someone already had).

    Scott K


    --
    Soren Stoutner
    soren@debian.org

    --------
    [1] https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40283283

    --nextPart3912631.flHnXpF0lk
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Thanks for the followup information.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">For reference, one of the packages I maintain, electrum, only uses one command from distutils, which compares version numbers to determine if there is a new upstream release.&
    nbsp; Upstream decided to simply incorporate that distutils file with that one command into their own codebase and maintain it themselves going forward.&nbsp; The code itself needs little modifications over time, so it shouldn’t be too difficult for
    them to maintain it.</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Louis-Philippe_V=C3=A9ron@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 30 05:40:01 2024
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    Cg0K

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  • From Matthias Klose@21:1/5 to Scott Kitterman on Mon Jul 1 20:10:02 2024
    On 29.06.24 20:29, Scott Kitterman wrote:
    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 1:36:41 PM EDT Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Scott,

    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 8:58:09 AM MST Scott Kitterman wrote:
    I would say no. Distutils is going to be with us for quite some time,
    even
    though it's no longer part of the standard distribution.

    Scott K

    Can you please elaborate on this some more? As a maintainer of a couple of >> packages that use distutils in some fashion I would appreciate understanding >> the detail of what is happening with distutils in Debian.

    I can't say for sure. I am assuming we will keep it in Debian in the short term independent of the Python interpreter packages, since removing it would break so many other packages.

    short time meaning, that we will remove it once we are stopping to have
    3.11 as a supported version, which is usually as the final step of a
    python transition. Please note, that python3-distutils has not been
    available for 3.12 at any time.

    According to codesearch.d.n over 600 packages reference disutils in their code. That doesn't mean that they all use it, but it's a lot of packages.

    this analysis is not good enough. it probably includes all stuff that
    can be used with the distutils included in setuptools.

    I think it's smart to work with upstreams to migrate away from it ASAP, since it isn't going to stick around forever, but I don't know the timeline.

    Of course, if no one volunteers to do the work to seperate it out of python3- stdlib-extensions, then it might come up pretty soon. Is anyone planning on working on this (I confess I thought someone already had).

    it will be removed once we stop having 3.11 as a supported Python version.

    Matthias

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  • From Scott Kitterman@21:1/5 to Matthias Klose on Mon Jul 1 20:20:01 2024
    On July 1, 2024 6:08:31 PM UTC, Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org> wrote:
    On 29.06.24 20:29, Scott Kitterman wrote:
    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 1:36:41 PM EDT Soren Stoutner wrote:
    Scott,

    On Saturday, June 29, 2024 8:58:09 AM MST Scott Kitterman wrote:
    I would say no. Distutils is going to be with us for quite some time, >>>> even
    though it's no longer part of the standard distribution.

    Scott K

    Can you please elaborate on this some more? As a maintainer of a couple of >>> packages that use distutils in some fashion I would appreciate understanding
    the detail of what is happening with distutils in Debian.

    I can't say for sure. I am assuming we will keep it in Debian in the short >> term independent of the Python interpreter packages, since removing it would >> break so many other packages.

    short time meaning, that we will remove it once we are stopping to have 3.11 as a supported version, which is usually as the final step of a python transition. Please note, that python3-distutils has not been available for 3.12 at any time.

    According to codesearch.d.n over 600 packages reference disutils in their
    code. That doesn't mean that they all use it, but it's a lot of packages.

    this analysis is not good enough. it probably includes all stuff that can be used with the distutils included in setuptools.

    I think it's smart to work with upstreams to migrate away from it ASAP, since
    it isn't going to stick around forever, but I don't know the timeline.

    Of course, if no one volunteers to do the work to seperate it out of python3-
    stdlib-extensions, then it might come up pretty soon. Is anyone planning on >> working on this (I confess I thought someone already had).

    it will be removed once we stop having 3.11 as a supported Python version.

    Can python3-setuptools Provide: python3-distutils?

    That would reduce the number of packages that have to be touched?

    Scott K

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