• Contacting DPT

    From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 6 17:50:01 2024
    Hi,

    I'd like to officially contact all our teams to learn about potential
    issues that might affect your work. I would love to learn how you
    organise / share your workload. If you do some regular meetings - be it
    on IRC, video conference or whatever I'm interested in joining one of
    your next meetings. I included individuel Uploaders of python3-defaults package into this contact. I'm aware that you are not necessarily
    identify yourself as DPT members but I think this package is related
    and I would love to see you as well in the DebConf BoF (see below) and
    if you could also answer my questions below.

    Like previous DPLs, I'm open to any inquiries or requests for
    assistance. I personally prefer public discussion whenever possible, as
    they can benefit a wider audience. You can find a list of contact
    options at the bottom of my page on people.d.o[1].

    I prefer being offline when I'm away from my keyboard, so I don't carry
    a phone. In urgent situations, I can provide the number of my dumb
    phone, though it may not always be within reach. Feel free to ping me
    via email if I don't respond promptly to ensure I address your concerns.

    Please let me know whether I can do something for you. I'm fine joining
    your IRC channel if needed but please invite me in case I should be
    informed about some urgent discussion there since I normally do not lurk
    on this channel.

    I'd also like to inform you that I've registered a BoF for DebConf24 in
    Busan with the following description:

    This BoF is an attempt to gather as much as possible teams inside
    Debian to exchange experiences, discuss workflows inside teams, share
    their ways to attract newcomers etc.

    Each participant team should prepare a short description of their work
    and what team roles (“openings”) they have for new contributors. Even
    for delegated teams (membership is less fluid), it would be good to
    present the team, explain what it takes to be a team member, and what
    steps people usually go to end up being invited to participate. Some
    other teams can easily absorb contributions from salsa MRs, and at some
    point people get commit access. Anyway, the point is that we work on the
    idea that the pathway to become a team member becomes more clear from an
    outsider point-of-view.

    I'm sure not everybody will be able to travel this distance but it would
    be great if you would at least consider joining that BoF remotely. I'll
    care for a somehow TimeZone aware scheduling - if needed we'll organise
    two BoFs to match all time zones. I'm also aware that we have pretty
    different teams and it might make sense to do some infrastructure
    related BoF with your team and other teams that are caring for Debian infrastructure.

    I have some specific questions to the Debian Python team. I'm really interested into individual answers from single contributors either here
    on this list or in private.

    - Do you feel good when doing your work in Debian Python team?
    - Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
    members?
    - Do you have some strategy to gather new contributors for your team?
    - Can you give some individual estimation how many hours per week you
    are working on your tasks in youre team? Does this fit the amount of
    time you can really afford for this task?
    - I guess you will have your regular DPT meeting at DebConf (which I
    intend to join). What do you think about the general team meeting
    I registered.
    - In the beginning of this year there was a change in the policy of DPT.
    I'd like to hear your opinion about:
    * The process how it went (possibly with suggestions to do better)
    * The final result after a couple of months
    (I'm specifically interested also in the opinion of people who were
    not happy about the change.)
    - Since a long time we try to migrate from Python3.11 to Python3.12.
    * What are your thoughts about the transition process?
    * Can you identify some blockers?
    * Do you have some suggestions for enhancements of this process?
    - Can I do anything for you?


    Kind regards and thanks a lot for your work
    Andreas.


    [1] https://people.debian.org/~tille/

    --
    https://fam-tille.de

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  • From Andrey Rakhmatullin@21:1/5 to Andreas Tille on Thu Jun 6 18:50:01 2024
    On Thu, Jun 06, 2024 at 05:40:15PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    I'd like to officially contact all our teams to learn about potential
    issues that might affect your work. I would love to learn how you
    organise / share your workload.
    I don't think we do, I think it's all ad-hoc. There are some bug lists
    in the IRC channel topic.

    If you do some regular meetings - be it on IRC, video conference or
    whatever
    We do not.

    I have some specific questions to the Debian Python team. I'm really interested into individual answers from single contributors either here
    on this list or in private.

    - Do you feel good when doing your work in Debian Python team?
    Yes.

    - Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
    members?
    No idea if this question makes sense. I think most people just work on
    their own packages.

    - Do you have some strategy to gather new contributors for your team?
    No.

    - Can you give some individual estimation how many hours per week you
    are working on your tasks in youre team? Does this fit the amount of
    time you can really afford for this task?
    <1

    - In the beginning of this year there was a change in the policy of DPT.
    I'd like to hear your opinion about:
    * The process how it went (possibly with suggestions to do better)
    * The final result after a couple of months
    (I'm specifically interested also in the opinion of people who were
    not happy about the change.)
    It showed yet again that with any change, and equally lack of change, in
    Debian there is a possibility that some people will resign.

    - Since a long time we try to migrate from Python3.11 to Python3.12.
    * What are your thoughts about the transition process?
    It's not transparent.

    * Can you identify some blockers?
    I have no idea.
    I know many RC bugs are open but I don't know if any of them are blockers
    and not things to be removed from testing.

    * Do you have some suggestions for enhancements of this process?
    If DPT is expected to be involved besides looking at the RC bug list at
    the IRC channel topic, I would like to know how.

    --
    WBR, wRAR

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  • From Scott Kitterman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 7 00:08:46 2024
    On Thursday, June 6, 2024 11:40:15 AM EDT Andreas Tille wrote:
    - In the beginning of this year there was a change in the policy of DPT.
    I'd like to hear your opinion about:
    * The process how it went (possibly with suggestions to do better)
    * The final result after a couple of months
    (I'm specifically interested also in the opinion of people who were
    not happy about the change.)

    Personally, I found the entire exercise quite disappointing. I sensed little to no interest from members of the team in trying to understand other perspectives on the proposed policy change. It seemed to me to be an exercise in individuals trying to get what they thought best for themselves with little interest in the consequences of winning the argument.

    Myself, I would have preferred not to change, but I don't find the change itself a major issue either way. I am mostly disheartened by the lack of interest in trying to find consensus in the team (note that this lack of interest was not exclusively from one side of the discussion or the other, I think it was both).

    As far as I can tell, they most concrete result is some people left the team. Some packages got picked up by other people, some packages were removed from the team, some packages were orphaned, and some packages were removed from Debian as a result. Any benefit is theoretical as far as I can tell.

    I have reduced my participation in the team. I have been working my way through packages to see if I was working on them because I want to or because
    I thought I ought to as a part of being a good team member. I have removed myself from uploaders, transferred packages to other uploaders, and orphaned several packages in the latter case.

    If someone thinks this change helped anything, I'd be curious to see the data on that supports it. Maybe I just missed it.

    Scott K
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  • From Emmanuel Arias@21:1/5 to Scott Kitterman on Tue Jun 11 21:30:01 2024
    Hi all!

    On Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 12:08:46AM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
    On Thursday, June 6, 2024 11:40:15 AM EDT Andreas Tille wrote:
    - In the beginning of this year there was a change in the policy of DPT.
    I'd like to hear your opinion about:
    * The process how it went (possibly with suggestions to do better)
    * The final result after a couple of months
    (I'm specifically interested also in the opinion of people who were
    not happy about the change.)

    Personally, I found the entire exercise quite disappointing. I sensed little
    to no interest from members of the team in trying to understand other perspectives on the proposed policy change. It seemed to me to be an exercise
    in individuals trying to get what they thought best for themselves with little
    interest in the consequences of winning the argument.

    Myself, I would have preferred not to change, but I don't find the change itself a major issue either way. I am mostly disheartened by the lack of interest in trying to find consensus in the team (note that this lack of interest was not exclusively from one side of the discussion or the other, I think it was both).

    As far as I can tell, they most concrete result is some people left the team.
    Some packages got picked up by other people, some packages were removed from the team, some packages were orphaned, and some packages were removed from Debian as a result. Any benefit is theoretical as far as I can tell.

    I was one of the people that accept the policy changes. At the beginning
    IMO there were some movements en the packages, there were volunteers
    picking orphaned packages, people left the team as you mentioned, but
    the team is working as was working before the policy change. I'm not
    sure if the policy change had the effect that we expected.

    I have reduced my participation in the team. I have been working my way through packages to see if I was working on them because I want to or because
    I thought I ought to as a part of being a good team member. I have removed myself from uploaders, transferred packages to other uploaders, and orphaned several packages in the latter case.

    If someone thinks this change helped anything, I'd be curious to see the data
    on that supports it. Maybe I just missed it.

    Scott K



    --
    cheers,
    Emmanuel Arias

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ eamanu@debian.org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: 13796755BBC72BB8ABE2AEB5 FA9DEC5DE11C63F1
    ⠈⠳⣄

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  • From Emmanuel Arias@21:1/5 to Alexandre Detiste on Thu Jun 20 07:00:01 2024
    On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 06:41:58PM +0200, Alexandre Detiste wrote:
    Hi,

    Le mer. 12 juin 2024 16:22, Thomas Goirand <thomas@goirand.fr> a crit :
    On 6/6/24 17:40, Andreas Tille wrote:
    - Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
    members?

    The team probably lacks organization, and there's no clear enough
    strategy for end goals.

    I know we're moving toward getting rid of:
    - six
    - mock
    - nose

    and unittest2,
    and zombie-imp,
    and 2to3,
    and cython3-legacy
    and m2r
    and mistune0
    and ...

    Even only listing all of these on wiki with
    what they could be replaced with would be good starter.
    Hi, could you please share the list of those? I have in mind six, mock,
    nose unittest2, 2to3 and cython3-legacy. If the team are OK I can update
    the wiki with this information.

    Cheers,


    We could rely on the standard transition tracker to see what remains:
    https://release.debian.org/transitions/
    or having those get from FTP-Masters an "oldlibs" overide.

    I've my own tracker but it's mostly a toy I build to see what could be
    done with UDD
    and playing around with matplotlib.

    An optimal moment to check whether these old dependencies
    can be removed seems to be when a new upstream is available.

    (m = mock, n=nose, s=six)
    $ cat snap
    androguard m (depends on Java stuff..) backblaze-b2 m n s (huge)
    elasticsearch-curator m n (depends on new spun out library too ITP)
    fabric n (I tried)
    heudiconv m (attempted uploaded to experimental)
    mu-editor m (discussion on mailing
    list about packaging style went nowhere)
    pagure m s

    Now I think I could sort this by upstream release date & make an RSS
    out of it ;-)


    but is anyone doing any type of coordination for the work to be done ?

    I guess people being members of several Teams could give precious help.
    I don't see myself pledging to join Teams just to remove
    a handful lines from d/control files, and then be gone forever.

    It's been a waaaaay too long.
    Agree

    Greetings


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