X-Post: <https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/Community/issues/1524>

Hi,

try to get uscan working with an upstream repo hosted at Codeberg.org
(Forgejo based).

The Wiki page <https://wiki.debian.org/debian/watch> is not up-2-date
and I try to figuring out how it works to update that page. Uscan don't
work without having a changelog. So I created one. But uscan can not
find my tarball.

I assume I have not yet understood the purpose of the changelog in
context of uscan. What do I miss?

This is "debian/watch":

version=4
# RegEx in Perl dialect https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/archive/v(\d+).(\d+).(\d+).tar.gz

This is a dummy "debian/changelog":

hyperorg (0.0-dev) UNRELEASED; urgency=low

* Changes made in this version

-- Maintainer Name <maintainer@example.com> Thu, 01 Jul 2021 12:00:00
+0000


The output of "uscan --no-download --verbose --debug":


uscan info: uscan (version 2.21.3+deb11u1) See uscan(1) for help
uscan info: Scan watch files in .
uscan info: Check debian/watch and debian/changelog in .
uscan info: package="hyperorg" version="0.0-dev" (as seen in
debian/changelog) uscan info: package="hyperorg" version="0.0" (no epoch/revision) uscan info: ./debian/changelog sets package="hyperorg" version="0.0" uscan info: Process watch file at: debian/watch
package = hyperorg
version = 0.0
pkg_dir = .
uscan info: Last orig.tar.* tarball version (from debian/changelog): 0.0
uscan info: Last orig.tar.* tarball version (dversionmangled): 0.0
uscan info: Requesting URL:
https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/archive/
uscan warn: In watchfile debian/watch, reading webpage
https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/archive/ failed: 404 Not Found
uscan info: Scan finished

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On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 07:21:48PM +0500, Andrey Rakhmatullin wrote:

I assume I have not yet understood the purpose of the changelog in
context of uscan. What do I miss?

It needs debian/changelog to know the current upstream version of the package.

(also this is answered explicitly in uscan(1))



--
WBR, wRAR

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On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 02:05:41PM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:

The Wiki page <https://wiki.debian.org/debian/watch> is not up-2-date

What's wrong with it?

--
WBR, wRAR

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Am 29.03.24 um 15:05 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:

I assume I have not yet understood the purpose of the changelog in
context of uscan. What do I miss?

This is "debian/watch":

version=4
# RegEx in Perl dialect https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/archive/v(\d+).(\d+).(\d+).tar.gz

This is a dummy "debian/changelog":

hyperorg (0.0-dev) UNRELEASED; urgency=low

* Changes made in this version

-- Maintainer Name <maintainer@example.com> Thu, 01 Jul 2021 12:00:00
+0000

You need to use "opts=mode=git, ...", see the man page of uscan.

e.g. like this

$ cat debian/watch
version=4

opts="mode=git, \
uversionmangle=s/(\d)[_\.\-\+]?((RC|rc|pre|dev|beta|alpha)\.?\d*)$/$1~$2/, \
dversionmangle=s/\+ds(\.?\d+)?$//" \ https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git \
refs/tags/v(\d+\S+)

And uscan will find the most recent version matching the regexp.

$ uscan --verbose --no-download
uscan info: uscan (version 2.23.7) See uscan(1) for help
uscan info: Scan watch files in .
uscan info: Check debian/watch and debian/changelog in .
uscan info: package="hyperorg" version="0.0-dev" (as seen in debian/changelog)
uscan info: package="hyperorg" version="0.0" (no epoch/revision)
uscan info: ./debian/changelog sets package="hyperorg" version="0.0"
uscan info: Process watch file at: debian/watch
package = hyperorg
version = 0.0
pkg_dir = .
uscan info: opts: mode=git, uversionmangle=s/(\d)[_\.\-\+]?((RC|rc|pre|dev|beta|alpha)\.?\d*)$/$1~$2/, dversionmangle=s/\+ds(\.?\d+)?$//
uscan info: line: https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git refs/tags/v(\d+\S+) uscan info: Parsing mode=git
uscan info: Parsing uversionmangle=s/(\d)[_\.\-\+]?((RC|rc|pre|dev|beta|alpha)\.?\d*)$/$1~$2/
uscan info: Parsing dversionmangle=s/\+ds(\.?\d+)?$//
uscan info: line: https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git refs/tags/v(\d+\S+) uscan info: Last orig.tar.* tarball version (from debian/changelog): 0.0 uscan info: Last orig.tar.* tarball version (dversionmangled): 0.0
uscan info: Execute: git ls-remote https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git uscan info: Found the following matching refs:
refs/tags/v0.1.0 (0.1.0)
HEAD ()
refs/heads/fix/131subfolders ()
refs/heads/fix/30_and_70_links ()
refs/heads/latest ()
refs/pull/138/head ()
refs/pull/139/head ()
uscan info: Looking at $base = https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git with
$filepattern = refs/tags/v(\d+\S+) found
$newfile = refs/tags/v0.1.0
$newversion = 0.1.0
$lastversion = 0.0
uscan info: Upstream URL(+tag) to download is identified as https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git refs/tags/v0.1.0
uscan info: Filename (filenamemangled) for downloaded file: hyperorg-0.1.0.tar.xz
Newest version of hyperorg on remote site is 0.1.0, local version is 0.0

Newer package available from:

=> https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git refs/tags/v0.1.0
uscan info: Scan finished

--
Regards
Carsten

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On 2024-03-29 19:26 Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 02:05:41PM +0000, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:

The Wiki page <https://wiki.debian.org/debian/watch> is not
up-2-date

What's wrong with it?

I was not clear in my initial mail, where I only wrote that "Uscan
don't work without having a changelog.". The Wiki page do not mention
that.

But I will edit the page after I figured out some details.

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Dear Carsten,

thank for your reply and your patience with me. :)

On 2024-03-29 16:23 Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> wrote:

You need to use "opts=mode=git, ...", see the man page of uscan.

Are you sure. For example this watch file do not use "opts=" https://sources.debian.org/src/backintime/1.4.3-1/debian/watch/

Also some examples on the wikipage about "debian/watch" do not use
"opts=".

Please be aware that I don't only want to solve one technical problem
with one specific package. I want to understand the whole thing ("big
picture") to improve the documentation.

opts="mode=git, \
uversionmangle=s/(\d)[_\.\-\+]?((RC|rc|pre|dev|beta|alpha)\.?\d*)$/$1~$2/,
\ dversionmangle=s/\+ds(\.?\d+)?$//" \ https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git \
refs/tags/v(\d+\S+)

And uscan will find the most recent version matching the regexp.

I see 3 different regex patterns in this line. Why?

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Am 29.03.24 um 17:39 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:

Dear Carsten,

thank for your reply and your patience with me. :)

On 2024-03-29 16:23 Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> wrote:

You need to use "opts=mode=git, ...", see the man page of uscan.

Are you sure.

Of course I'm sure, I've tested the snippets before posting it on the
list. Did you test this on your side and have any issues?

For example this watch file do not use "opts=" https://sources.debian.org/src/backintime/1.4.3-1/debian/watch/

You need to ask the person that did probably this creation or
modification. I can't answering this.

Also some examples on the wikipage about "debian/watch" do not use
"opts=".

You seems to expect that the wiki is all known and answering place. No,
that is this not. It's by nature always "outdated". But it's a wiki,
everyone can edit it.

Please be aware that I don't only want to solve one technical problem
with one specific package. I want to understand the whole thing ("big picture") to improve the documentation.

Well, that's not that complicated for uscan, it does mainly one thing
(which is done in multiple steps, have a look into the man page), it's
scanning upstream resources, fetching data and creates an tarball ready
for importing.

opts="mode=git, \
uversionmangle=s/(\d)[_\.\-\+]?((RC|rc|pre|dev|beta|alpha)\.?\d*)$/$1~$2/,
\ dversionmangle=s/\+ds(\.?\d+)?$//" \
https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg.git \
refs/tags/v(\d+\S+)

And uscan will find the most recent version matching the regexp.

I see 3 different regex patterns in this line. Why?

I see one that is relevant to your original question. The other two you
mean are used in other "opts" variables, these variable are also
explained too in the man page of uscan.

--
Regards
Carsten

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On 2024-03-29 18:07 Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> wrote:

Am 29.03.24 um 17:39 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:

On 2024-03-29 16:23 Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de>
wrote:

You need to use "opts=mode=git, ...", see the man page of uscan.

Are you sure.

Of course I'm sure, I've tested the snippets before posting it on the
list. Did you test this on your side and have any issues?

Again I was not clear. You wrote "need". So it is mandatory?
Then I gave you an example where "opts=" is not used. So it seems not
to be mandatory in all cases.

For example this watch file do not use "opts=" https://sources.debian.org/src/backintime/1.4.3-1/debian/watch/

You need to ask the person that did probably this creation or
modification. I can't answering this.

This line seems to work:

https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/tags .*\/v(\d+).(\d+).(\d+).tar.gz

There is no "opts=". So again. Why would you suggest to use "opts="? I want to learn. I don't want to fight.

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On Friday, 29 March 2024 17:39:04 CET c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:

On 2024-03-29 16:23 Carsten Schoenert <c.schoenert@t-online.de> wrote:

You need to use "opts=mode=git, ...", see the man page of uscan.

Are you sure. For example this watch file do not use "opts=" https://sources.debian.org/src/backintime/1.4.3-1/debian/watch/

If I look at your releases page, I see that you have one release that you will probably be wanting to package:

https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/releases

However, uscan seems to be driven by the debian/changelog and debian/watch files, with the former supplying the version or release to be searched for,
and the latter specifying the mechanism by which the searching will occur.

So, I imagine that your debian/changelog would need an entry starting with something like this:

hyperorg (0.1.0-1) unstable; urgency=low

If you hadn't tagged a release in the repository, then you would probably have to invent a suitable version number based on the changeset identifier. Something like this perhaps:

hyperorg (0.1.0+git20240329.4a77811214-1) unstable; urgency=low

Here, I've used the changeset identifier of 4a77811214 which is the latest commit that I can see, and that hopefully serves to illustrate the principle.

I suppose that the watch file would then need to use the "mode=git" option.

[...]

And uscan will find the most recent version matching the regexp.

I see 3 different regex patterns in this line. Why?

I must admit to just copying the recommended patterns for my packaging exercises, largely because although I can happily explore the process of downloading a Web page - in your case, the one mentioned above - and parsing the HTML to get at the download links, I assume that someone has already done that hard work.

But to answer your question, what is happening is that the release or version from the changelog is transformed into something that might appear on the downloaded page. You need to get from "hyperorg-0.1.0-1" to this:

https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/archive/v0.1.0.tar.gz

Or if a specific changeset is involved, the process is a bit more complicated, but would involve transforming "hyperorg-0.1.0+git20240329.4a77811214-1" into this:

https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg/archive/ 4a77811214e5bd73247a197dbb5d1a4367c99109.tar.gz

To summarise, uscan is just searching a page listing releases or, in the
second case, a specific Web page for an appropriate download that it can then obtain.

Hope this helps a little!

Paul

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Copy: c.buhtz@posteo.jp

On Friday, March 29, 2024 10:16:56 AM MST c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:

There is no "opts=". So again. Why would you suggest to use "opts="? I want

to

learn. I don't want to fight.

One of the interesting things about uscan is there are often multiple different ways to connect to an upstream source and get what you want out of it.

So, for example, if upstream posts tarballs, you can scan the HTML for those and find one that matches the latest version number in the changelog (or one with a newer version number, which uscan can use to notify you an update is available).

However, uscan also speaks git. If you use `opts=git`, then instead of scanning the HTML looking for a tarball, it connects through git and looks at the tags to find a suitable release. It then clones that commit and uses the source to produce a tarball.

Some upstream repositories both produce release tarballs and tag their
releases in git, so either approach would work. Some only do one or the
other.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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On 2024-03-29 11:29 Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:

One of the interesting things about uscan

This is that kind of "big picture" explanations that should be written
to the Wiki. Texts like this are the missing link between man pages,
references and policy documents.

Thanks in advance

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Copy: c.buhtz@posteo.jp

I agree. Much of Debian’s documentation is not written for people who are new
to the topic, but for people who already know the information and just want to be reminded about some of the tricky parts.

Anything you can do to improve the documentation would be greatly appreciated.

On Friday, March 29, 2024 1:12:12 PM MST c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:

On 2024-03-29 11:29 Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:

One of the interesting things about uscan

This is that kind of "big picture" explanations that should be written
to the Wiki. Texts like this are the missing link between man pages, references and policy documents.

Thanks in advance

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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Dear Soren,

my primary intention is always to improve Debian. That also involves a
better image to the public and potential new users and contributors.

On 2024-03-29 13:42 Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> wrote:

Much of Debian’s documentation is not written for people
who are new to the topic, but for people who already know the
information and just want to be reminded about some of the tricky
parts.

That kind of "documentation" is called a "reference". You point to one
of the problems of the Debian Wiki and other Debian documents. They are
often not focused enough to one purpose and/or target group. It is
often not clear to readers what the purpose and target group of a
specific wiki page or document is. And especially in a Wiki there are
too many authors not following any design rules except their own way of thinking. Sometimes to much freedom is not healthy. A "head of docu"
person or institution watching the quality is missing in Debian.

I am aware of <https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DDP>. But it seems they
don't have the power in Debian to establish rules about documentation
quality. And even there own wiki team page has much potential for
improvement.

Anything you can do to improve the documentation would be greatly appreciated.

No, no, no! Sorry. I tried to give a polite hint in my previous mail
but it seems it did not reach you.

Don't write and explain such things in emails. Save your time and
resources. Write it into the wiki just one time and then you can link
to it. You wrote it. I won't copy and paste your stuff. Ladies and
Gentlemen please do edit your own wiki pages yourself. You are the
experts here. I am not.

This attitude is also one of the reasons why the wiki is in such a bad
shape.

Otherwise just delete the whole wiki. That would be an increase in
the quality of Debians documentation. In its current state it is
embarrassing and it harms the project called Debian.

Debian is not a hobby. Doing FOSS shouldn't be an excuse for not taking responsibility.

I tried. But it seems I am the only person caring for new contributors
and how the read documentation. I am tortured with man pages and links
to out dated documentation (e.g. "New maintainers guide").

The situation is not healthy to me. So I need to stop from here with
fixing other peoples documentation.

Best,
Christian Buhtz

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Hello.

Am 31.03.24 um 15:31 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:

Otherwise just delete the whole wiki. That would be an increase in
the quality of Debians documentation. In its current state it is
embarrassing and it harms the project called Debian.

Do you really think, deleting for example this pages

https://wiki.debian.org/Teams
https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/PythonTeam

would be an improvement in documentation?

The quality of Debian documantion is improvable; but the Debian project
is a do-ocracy [0]

Kind regards
Michael

[0] https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Do-ocracy&oldid=206673492 (sorry, there is no english version)

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On Sunday, 31 March 2024 15:31:36 CEST c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:

Don't write and explain such things in emails. Save your time and
resources. Write it into the wiki just one time and then you can link
to it. You wrote it. I won't copy and paste your stuff. Ladies and
Gentlemen please do edit your own wiki pages yourself. You are the
experts here. I am not.

I agree broadly with these sentiments.

This attitude is also one of the reasons why the wiki is in such a bad
shape.

I somewhat agree with this, although it is actually why documentation is in such bad shape across the entire industry, not just the Debian Wiki. However,
I sympathise with developers that there are only so many hours in the day,
too, and that they are often tasked with getting working code out of the door, condemning supposedly optional activities like testing and documentation to perennial neglect.

I sympathise less with the school of development where everything is thrown over the side, redone with little benefit to everyone, and then the developers claim that they didn't have time to document anything, not least because they are about to go through the same performance all over again.

Otherwise just delete the whole wiki. That would be an increase in
the quality of Debians documentation. In its current state it is
embarrassing and it harms the project called Debian.

I don't agree and I am evidently not the only one. There have been situations where the only usable documentation I could find was in the Debian Wiki.

Debian is not a hobby. Doing FOSS shouldn't be an excuse for not taking responsibility.

Well, it should be more than a hobby, and it is indeed a job for some people. To upgrade it from hobby to job involves money, and that would definitely be
an incentive for people to "take responsibility". Otherwise, nobody should believe that they can set people's work priorities: that is the job of the
boss in an actual employment relationship.

I tried. But it seems I am the only person caring for new contributors
and how the read documentation. I am tortured with man pages and links
to out dated documentation (e.g. "New maintainers guide").

I certainly care about it. Did you find my previous message about uscan helpful? I don't maintain any of these tools, but I am willing to share my experiences in order to evolve a reasonable consensus about how these tools might be used, eventually providing concise, usable documentation that would help newcomers quickly become productive.

The situation is not healthy to me. So I need to stop from here with
fixing other peoples documentation.

I think that you can make a difference, so don't stop trying to do something about it.

Paul

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Dear Paul,

thanks for your feedback.

On 2024-03-31 17:17 Paul Boddie <paul@boddie.org.uk> wrote:

then the developers claim that they didn't have time to document

That is the advantage when doing FOSS. You do have the time. There is
not boss or customer behind your back. Teh problem in FOSS is just the priorities of the developers and their management of time and
resources.

Did you find my previous message about
uscan helpful?

Yes, I did.

The situation is not healthy to me. So I need to stop from here with
fixing other peoples documentation.

I think that you can make a difference, so don't stop trying to do
something about it.

One important skill of a FOSS developer/contributor is to know when to
stop and saying "no".

Anyway, I also think I won't make a difference when the whole system
(Debian) is against me. There is much more to do then just updating
wiki pages. I do respect the docracy but there are limits. And that is
where the project management should be somehow involved.

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