• on the lack of a `python-` prefix for source packages

    From Sandro Tosi@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 12 02:30:01 2022
    Proposal: the DPT will start adding a `python-` prefix to NEW source
    packages names, unless the upstream project already contains it

    AFAICT all other major languages ecosystems packaging teams use a (semi?)mandatory tag to identify their source packages (results below
    from a very quick look at Sources, top results only):

    prefix: golang, rust, r, node, ruby, haskell, php, ocaml, python (on a voluntary basis), and others
    prefix+suffix: perl

    At the beginning, I remember being in favor of the current status quo
    in DPT, where each maintainer can choose to add `python-` if they feel
    like it, or just use the upstream name.

    Thru the years, i've grown more uncomfortable with this situation and
    i think the fact we dont mandate a `python` prefix in the team source
    packages names (and thus guiding the rest of the python packagers
    within Debian towards a common style) is detrimental to Debian as a
    whole, and we should change it.

    My proposal as stated at the top is to start from now on to prepend
    `python` to all NEW source packages in DPT, with the option to rename
    existing packages at a later date.

    What are other team members' opinions on this?

    Regards,
    --
    Sandro "morph" Tosi
    My website: http://sandrotosi.me/
    Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/sandrotosi

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  • From Scott Kitterman@21:1/5 to Sandro Tosi on Mon Dec 12 03:00:01 2022
    On December 12, 2022 1:24:35 AM UTC, Sandro Tosi <morph@debian.org> wrote: >Proposal: the DPT will start adding a `python-` prefix to NEW source
    packages names, unless the upstream project already contains it

    AFAICT all other major languages ecosystems packaging teams use a >(semi?)mandatory tag to identify their source packages (results below
    from a very quick look at Sources, top results only):

    prefix: golang, rust, r, node, ruby, haskell, php, ocaml, python (on a >voluntary basis), and others
    prefix+suffix: perl

    At the beginning, I remember being in favor of the current status quo
    in DPT, where each maintainer can choose to add `python-` if they feel
    like it, or just use the upstream name.

    Thru the years, i've grown more uncomfortable with this situation and
    i think the fact we dont mandate a `python` prefix in the team source >packages names (and thus guiding the rest of the python packagers
    within Debian towards a common style) is detrimental to Debian as a
    whole, and we should change it.

    My proposal as stated at the top is to start from now on to prepend
    `python` to all NEW source packages in DPT, with the option to rename >existing packages at a later date.

    What are other team members' opinions on this?

    For packages that on contain a python module/extension, I think it's not horrible, but I don't see why it's better to diverge from upstream naming.

    For packages that contain or are primarily applications, I don't think it's a good idea.

    What problem are you trying to solve?

    Scott K

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  • From Sandro Tosi@21:1/5 to debian@kitterman.com on Mon Dec 12 03:50:01 2022
    My proposal as stated at the top is to start from now on to prepend
    `python` to all NEW source packages in DPT, with the option to rename
    existing packages at a later date.

    What are other team members' opinions on this?

    For packages that on contain a python module/extension, I think it's not horrible, but I don't see why it's better to diverge from upstream naming.

    I tend to agree with Sandro on for this use case.

    True, i was mostly referring to modules, as that's the most numerous
    type of packages we have

    For packages that contain or are primarily applications, I don't think it's a good idea.

    Ditto on that one, I don't feel having "python-supysonic" would be a
    good naming scheme...

    please note that would be just for source packages, the user-facing
    ones can still be `supysonic` as that's what you expect to install

    On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 8:53 PM Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> wrote:
    What problem are you trying to solve?

    no problem specifically, i just feel that having a consistent scheme
    would benefit Debian and then team.

    --
    Sandro "morph" Tosi
    My website: http://sandrotosi.me/
    Me at Debian: http://wiki.debian.org/SandroTosi
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/sandrotosi

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Scott Kitterman@21:1/5 to Sandro Tosi on Mon Dec 12 05:40:01 2022
    On December 12, 2022 2:43:48 AM UTC, Sandro Tosi <morph@debian.org> wrote:
    My proposal as stated at the top is to start from now on to prepend
    `python` to all NEW source packages in DPT, with the option to rename
    existing packages at a later date.

    What are other team members' opinions on this?

    For packages that on contain a python module/extension, I think it's not horrible, but I don't see why it's better to diverge from upstream naming.

    I tend to agree with Sandro on for this use case.

    True, i was mostly referring to modules, as that's the most numerous
    type of packages we have

    For packages that contain or are primarily applications, I don't think it's a good idea.

    Ditto on that one, I don't feel having "python-supysonic" would be a
    good naming scheme...

    please note that would be just for source packages, the user-facing
    ones can still be `supysonic` as that's what you expect to install

    On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 8:53 PM Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> wrote: >> What problem are you trying to solve?

    no problem specifically, i just feel that having a consistent scheme
    would benefit Debian and then team.

    If it's a case where multiple languages would likely have a package with similar naming, I can see it's a good thing to be clear. When we already don't use the same name as upstream in the binary (what upstream has python3- in the package name?), I
    think there's value in using the exact upstream name for the source package.

    As an example, I maintain dkimpy (also the upstream name) which has the python3-dkim binary package. If this were a new package that would follow your proposed rule, what would the source package be named? If it's python-dkim, that would follow your
    proposal, but a new user that knew the upstream name would find nothing if they searched for it. Python-dkimpy would solve that, but seems redundant.

    I don't see how having an additional rule is helpful. I think every rule we add makes it more complicated for new contributors, so we should be careful to avoid adding new ones without good reason (and it wouldn't hurt to revisit old ones and ditch
    things that have outlived their usefulness).

    Scott K

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  • From Steffen Moeller@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 20 01:00:01 2022
    Am 12.12.2022 um 02:24 schrieb Sandro Tosi:
    Proposal: the DPT will start adding a `python-` prefix to NEW source
    packages names, unless the upstream project already contains it

    AFAICT all other major languages ecosystems packaging teams use a (semi?)mandatory tag to identify their source packages (results below
    from a very quick look at Sources, top results only):

    prefix: golang, rust, r, node, ruby, haskell, php, ocaml, python (on a voluntary basis), and others
    prefix+suffix: perl

    At the beginning, I remember being in favor of the current status quo
    in DPT, where each maintainer can choose to add `python-` if they feel
    like it, or just use the upstream name.

    Thru the years, i've grown more uncomfortable with this situation and
    i think the fact we dont mandate a `python` prefix in the team source packages names (and thus guiding the rest of the python packagers
    within Debian towards a common style) is detrimental to Debian as a
    whole, and we should change it.

    My proposal as stated at the top is to start from now on to prepend
    `python` to all NEW source packages in DPT, with the option to rename
    `python-`
    existing packages at a later date.

    What are other team members' opinions on this?

    I agree.

    The only exception should be a package with an executable that just
    happens to be implemented in Python. That is likely self-evident, but
    when packaging such a new package then one is likely also packaging a
    handful of its dependencies. Then all the dependencies likely got that
    python- prefix and then one may be tempted to also give it to the
    package featuring the executable.

    Best,
    Steffen

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  • From Joseph Nahmias@21:1/5 to Scott Kitterman on Tue Dec 20 15:50:01 2022
    On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 04:36:53AM +0000, Scott Kitterman wrote:
    On December 12, 2022 2:43:48 AM UTC, Sandro Tosi <morph@debian.org> wrote:
    My proposal as stated at the top is to start from now on to prepend
    `python` to all NEW source packages in DPT, with the option to rename >> >> existing packages at a later date.

    What are other team members' opinions on this?

    For packages that on contain a python module/extension, I think it's not horrible, but I don't see why it's better to diverge from upstream naming.

    I tend to agree with Sandro on for this use case.

    True, i was mostly referring to modules, as that's the most numerous
    type of packages we have

    For packages that contain or are primarily applications, I don't think it's a good idea.

    Ditto on that one, I don't feel having "python-supysonic" would be a
    good naming scheme...

    please note that would be just for source packages, the user-facing
    ones can still be `supysonic` as that's what you expect to install

    On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 8:53 PM Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> wrote:
    What problem are you trying to solve?

    no problem specifically, i just feel that having a consistent scheme
    would benefit Debian and then team.

    If it's a case where multiple languages would likely have a package
    with similar naming, I can see it's a good thing to be clear. When we already don't use the same name as upstream in the binary (what
    upstream has python3- in the package name?), I think there's value in
    using the exact upstream name for the source package.

    I agree with Scott's reasoning here. Given that we prefix the binary
    packages with python3-, I strongly prefer to keep the source package
    name the same as upstream. I feel that way even for python modules and
    would vote against the requirement, but can understand and appreciate
    the other side of the argument.

    I don't see how having an additional rule is helpful. I think every
    rule we add makes it more complicated for new contributors, so we
    should be careful to avoid adding new ones without good reason (and it wouldn't hurt to revisit old ones and ditch things that have outlived
    their usefulness).

    Agree here as well. Guidelines & reasonable defaults can be helpful for
    new contributors, but I really don't think we need a rule here --
    whether or not it enshrines my (current) preference.

    Scott K
    --Joe

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