https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

gggg gggg <ggggg9271@gmail.com> wrote:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

Anthropologists will lecture you until the cows come home about how you
need to immerse yourself in an alien culture to be competent about its
stance in the world.
I follow them when it comes to classical literature. Greek language for
Homer, Sophocles, Aristotle; Latin for Vergil, Livy, Tacitus, St Augustine. Otherwise you’re not only at the mercy of some translator’s whims, but you’re quite incompetent to comment on them.

--
Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 9:52:38 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:44:04 AM UTC-7, e:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

gggg gggg wrote:

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:44:04 AM UTC-7, e:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic

WTF? Is racism the driving force here? Jeez! Is Harvard trying to avert
civil war? Dumb down and avert civil war?
WTF? I would have thought that a classics professor could see beyond
some ephemeral Zeitgeist, be braver than some wee sleekit, cowrin
tim'rous beastie, make a stand at the barricades against the barbaric
threat, sort truth from polemics, and lead.

Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:

gggg gggg wrote:

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:44:04 AM UTC-7, e:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic

WTF? Is racism the driving force here? Jeez! Is Harvard trying to avert
civil war? Dumb down and avert civil war?
WTF? I would have thought that a classics professor could see beyond
some ephemeral Zeitgeist, be braver than some wee sleekit, cowrin
tim'rous beastie, make a stand at the barricades against the barbaric
threat, sort truth from polemics, and lead.

Ed

Having read the first two Atlantic articles cited in this thread, I think that the issue is being (a) misrepresented and (b) thereby overblown.

Princeton is *not* removing the requirement to study Latin and Greek if the student is interested in "lang and lit" studies at a higher level.

What they *are* removing is the requirement that students who want to study, for example, Classical architecture _per se_ must first study a couple of years of languages which will never be useful to them in their further studies.

*This* strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, just as I would think ill of a program which required me to study 2 years of architecture and engineering in order to pursue my interest in Indo-European linguistics.

It's all a tempest in a teapot, brewed up by the professional "look what the effin' liberals have done now!" crowd.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Rich Alderson wrote:

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:

gggg gggg wrote:

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:44:04 AM UTC-7, e:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic

WTF? Is racism the driving force here? Jeez! Is Harvard trying to avert
civil war? Dumb down and avert civil war?
WTF? I would have thought that a classics professor could see beyond
some ephemeral Zeitgeist, be braver than some wee sleekit, cowrin
tim'rous beastie, make a stand at the barricades against the barbaric
threat, sort truth from polemics, and lead.

Ed

Having read the first two Atlantic articles cited in this thread, I think that
the issue is being (a) misrepresented and (b) thereby overblown.

Princeton is *not* removing the requirement to study Latin and Greek if the student is interested in "lang and lit" studies at a higher level.

What they *are* removing is the requirement that students who want to study, for example, Classical architecture _per se_ must first study a couple of years
of languages which will never be useful to them in their further studies.

*This* strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, just as I would think
ill of a program which required me to study 2 years of architecture and engineering in order to pursue my interest in Indo-European linguistics.

It's all a tempest in a teapot, brewed up by the professional "look what the effin' liberals have done now!" crowd.

If it's reasonable to remove it, was it unreasonable to have it? Does
reason change?
No! What changes are human viewpoints and motivations. And this sets a precedent to view future removals as "reasonable".

Classical architecture was produced in classical times. It was produced
within a culture that had its linguistic norms, its literature, its history. Classical revival architecture (perhaps better called Palladian) came
later, under a different culture.

Have you ever hung around the Piazza Della Rotunda in Rome, where all
the tourists flock to see the Pantheon? Germans, Japanese, Spanish,
Brits, Americans? Listen to what they say, and you'll soon see my point
of view. What does it say on that front? What does oculus mean? Why does
it have a dome?
The Japs see it through the eyes of their Great Wall; the Germans
through the Brandenburg Gate; the Brits through Palladian eyes.

I see it through the eyes of emperor Hadrian and his Roman contemporaries.

Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/13/21 6:59 AM, Ed Cryer wrote:

Rich Alderson wrote:

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:

gggg gggg wrote:

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:44:04 AM UTC-7, e:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-classics-major-latin-greek/619110/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/06/princeton-greek-latin-requirement/619136/

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/12/1005833496/critics-concerned-about-princetons-removal-of-latin-greek-requirement-in-classic

WTF? Is racism the driving force here? Jeez! Is Harvard trying to avert
civil war? Dumb down and avert civil war?
WTF? I would have thought that a classics professor could see beyond
some ephemeral Zeitgeist, be braver than some wee sleekit, cowrin
tim'rous beastie, make a stand at the barricades against the barbaric
threat, sort truth from polemics, and lead.

Ed

Having read the first two Atlantic articles cited in this thread, I
think that
the issue is being (a) misrepresented and (b) thereby overblown.

Princeton is *not* removing the requirement to study Latin and Greek
if the
student is interested in "lang and lit" studies at a higher level.

What they *are* removing is the requirement that students who want to
study,
for example, Classical architecture _per se_ must first study a couple
of years
of languages which will never be useful to them in their further studies.

*This* strikes me as a perfectly reasonable thing to do, just as I
would think
ill of a program which required me to study 2 years of architecture and
engineering in order to pursue my interest in Indo-European linguistics.

It's all a tempest in a teapot, brewed up by the professional "look
what the
effin' liberals have done now!" crowd.

If it's reasonable to remove it, was it unreasonable to have it? Does
reason change?
No! What changes are human viewpoints and motivations. And this sets a precedent to view future removals as "reasonable".

Classical architecture was produced in classical times. It was produced within a culture that had its linguistic norms, its literature, its
history.
Classical revival architecture (perhaps better called Palladian) came
later, under a different culture.

Have you ever hung around the Piazza Della Rotunda in Rome, where all
the tourists flock to see the Pantheon? Germans, Japanese, Spanish,
Brits, Americans? Listen to what they say, and you'll soon see my point
of view. What does it say on that front? What does oculus mean? Why does
it have a dome?
The Japs see it through the eyes of their Great Wall; the Germans
through the Brandenburg Gate; the Brits through Palladian eyes.

I see it through the eyes of emperor Hadrian and his Roman contemporaries.

Ed

But now we’re getting into the old war between Education and Learning.
C. S. Lewis actively opposed Victorian novels for students reading
English. He also opposed French or Latin. They took time away from the
active study of English, or were too easy for university-level studies.

In any case, I would be very surprised to hear that any architect did
not know the meaning of “oculus”.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:

Have you ever hung around the Piazza Della Rotunda in Rome, where all
the tourists flock to see the Pantheon? Germans, Japanese, Spanish,
Brits, Americans? Listen to what they say, and you'll soon see my point
of view. What does it say on that front? What does oculus mean? Why does
it have a dome?
The Japs see it through the eyes of their Great Wall; the Germans
through the Brandenburg Gate; the Brits through Palladian eyes.

I see it through the eyes of emperor Hadrian and his Roman contemporaries.

I believe you mean, in a non-PC fashion, the Chinese, not the Japanese.

And I sincerely doubt that you see anything through Roman eyes, contemporary to Hadrian or otherwise. Presumably you do not hold with slavery, for example.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Rich Alderson wrote:

Ed Cryer <ed@somewhere.in.the.uk> writes:

Have you ever hung around the Piazza Della Rotunda in Rome, where all
the tourists flock to see the Pantheon? Germans, Japanese, Spanish,
Brits, Americans? Listen to what they say, and you'll soon see my point
of view. What does it say on that front? What does oculus mean? Why does
it have a dome?
The Japs see it through the eyes of their Great Wall; the Germans
through the Brandenburg Gate; the Brits through Palladian eyes.

I see it through the eyes of emperor Hadrian and his Roman contemporaries.

I believe you mean, in a non-PC fashion, the Chinese, not the Japanese.

And I sincerely doubt that you see anything through Roman eyes, contemporary to
Hadrian or otherwise. Presumably you do not hold with slavery, for example.

The curse of democracy is the mob; the mindless mob who are swayed by
fashion, passion, fear and envious resentment. When caught looting
they'll feel justified because "everybody else was doing it".
Uneducated, knowing little of history and human cultural diversity,
they're condemned to repeat history's mistakes.
These are the "plebs". For the thinking "populus" it's okay when they
storm the Bastille, for the populus hates the ancien régime; but not
when they storm the Winter Palace. In this the populus too show prejudice.

A hero works with reason pre-eminent. His judgements and actions are
founded in long-term considerations. He is society's saviour in its hour
of need.

Ed

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)