https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakeningrealization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and hasprobably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:toward the gorgeous East.
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wroslightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise theMarschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugovon Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones whoare laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wroslightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise theMarschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugovon Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones whoare laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wroslightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise theMarschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugovon Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--
So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones whoare laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wroslightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise theMarschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,
As to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him. Hugovon Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to grope her--
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:16:15 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
suitable life for a pig....If an ill-e. pig lives only for his appetites, then isn't a person who lives only for his appetites abnormal?
..., and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a
rude and propositions chambermaid Mariandel (who is actually the Marschallin’s lover, Octavian, in disguise)...The Duke of Mantua in Giuseppe Verdi’s opera Rigoletto is a rude womanizer and not a beloved ruler...Early on, the Duke brags about hisCan an abnormal person live a normal life if he lives only to satisfy his appetites and nothing else?
The following may be of interest:
- Baron Ochs auf Lerchenau is the boorish bully in Richard Strauss’s Die Rosenkavalier. He delights in bragging to his cousin Princess Marie Thérèse von Werdenberg, the Marschallin, of seducing peasant girls on his estate. Baron Ochs is coarse and
https://simanaitissays.com/2017/05/07/trumping-the-arts/
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
If an ill-e. pig lives only for his appetites, then isn't a person who lives only for his appetites abnormal?suitable life for a pig....
..., and any humiliation that the handsome, intelligent, well-bred, chivalrous Oktavian (in protecting the rights of the middle-class Sophie) can visit upon him is all right with Hoffmansthal. Ochs has a right to a normal life, as long as it's a
Can an abnormal person live a normal life if he lives only to satisfy his appetites and nothing else?
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale ofThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts toAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for
ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the
in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There areCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver
Concerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. There areCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-driver in
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale ofThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts toAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for
ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
The abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:True, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916a
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attemptsAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle
ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from theThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing
What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn'tGoethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of '
What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to be.Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate, whatever
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friendSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attemptsAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle
the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from theThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing
t Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn'
be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to
I think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:54:20 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friendSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her
and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons sheThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsierAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll
the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comesThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-
didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cryWhat other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (
be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to
I think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:54:20 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friendSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her
and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons sheThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsierAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll
the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comesThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-
didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cryWhat other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (
be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to
I think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:32:39 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:54:20 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the
her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a trueSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and
and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons sheThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. WhoOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's
settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsierAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll
are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips'
plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line.Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comesThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-
didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cryWhat other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (
to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her
temporary gratification. The rules are: that serious (i.e., legal or financial) claims must be avoided; that appearances must be maintained; that certain proprieties must be respected ("the young," Lisette reminds Octave, "should go with the young, theI think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
And if norms have anything to do with propriety, consider Renoir's 1939 film "Rules of the Game":
- What is the game in Rules of the Game? The superficial answer is that it is the game of marital infidelity: society diverts erotic energies that might otherwise be destructive by permitting certain men to appropriate certain women for the purpose of
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agoldham/articles/REGLE.html
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:32:39 PM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 5:54:20 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the
her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a trueSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and
and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons sheThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. WhoOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's
settle for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsierAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll
are the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips'
plot-driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line.Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
sacrificing love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comesThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-
didn't Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cryWhat other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (
to be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her
temporary gratification. The rules are: that serious (i.e., legal or financial) claims must be avoided; that appearances must be maintained; that certain proprieties must be respected ("the young," Lisette reminds Octave, "should go with the young, theI think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
And that one should go along with norms when it comes to decision-making.
And if norms have anything to do with propriety, consider Renoir's 1939 film "Rules of the Game":
- What is the game in Rules of the Game? The superficial answer is that it is the game of marital infidelity: society diverts erotic energies that might otherwise be destructive by permitting certain men to appropriate certain women for the purpose of
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~agoldham/articles/REGLE.html
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friendSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attemptsAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle
the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from theThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing
t Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn'
be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to
I think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
On Tuesday, October 20, 2020 at 1:05:59 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, 19 October 2020 at 18:58:36 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 6:57:33 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Wednesday, 7 October 2020 at 16:47:03 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wro
On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin
own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friendSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
for him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attemptsAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle
the ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are
driver in the case of 'Meistersinger' and 'Rosenkavalier.' And since I had a look at the page of text you posted a bit ago, I can see much more similarity in musical terms. As I have remarked, I've looked at the story-line, not the musical line. ThereCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.' But all I'm saying is that that isn't the primary plot-
2ahUKEwjRt4S4i8HsAhXQsKQKHZ8YDIUQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=%22the%20denizens%20of%20Valhalla%20can%20be%20seen%20as%20ruthless%20politicians%20chasing%20their%20own%20selfish%20interests%20to%20the%20detriment%20of%20the%20many.%22%22&f=falseConcerning the abuse of power, how about DER RING...?:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bLDaqKzJF08C&pg=PA269&dq=%22the+denizens+of+Valhalla+can+be+seen+as+ruthless+politicians+chasing+their+own+selfish+interests+to+the+detriment+of+the+many.%22%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=
love, which he saw as the highest human experience of good. I would never say that Wagner didn't treat about the problems of power and its abuse--the Ring is his masterpiece, and the great crime of selling love, and the redemption that comes from theThe abuse of power has been a problem throughout human history. Ever heard of the Magna Carta?:
And that problem is not going away anytime soon:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-legislation-elections-campaigns-house-elections-82489275685c971ccef66d9864ec916aTrue, it's part of the human condition--the part we share with chimpanzees, the journalists' bread and butter. Wagner was deeply concerned with the use and abuse of power, especially in relation to love, particularly sexual love, and self-sacrificing
t Goethe describe mankind's 'divine discontent?') He rejects her, and he finds himself out on the cold hillside, but not forsaken: the shepherd boy and the pilgrims' chorus make him see what a narrow escape he's had. In the Solti recording, his cry of 'What other themes does Wagner deal with, besides power and young love? In 'Tannhauser', the protagonist has turned from spiritual to carnal love, and is in the toils of Venus herself. But his restless human spirit still seeks something greater, (didn'
be. Because the abuse has a supernatural origin, it requires a supernatural solution; not an option for most of us chimps. In 'Dutchman', a soul lost in selfishness and obstinacy has one chance at happiness,, and Senta is willing to share his fate,What else? In 'Lohengrin' abuse of power is a theme, but it's achieved through witchcraft and Ortrud's adherence to the old gods, plus Telramund's talent for cognitive dissonance--he can convince himself that Elsa is guilty, because he wants her to
I think that my view is more simplistic (too simplistic?) which is:
- Everybody has to do the right thing--even those at the top.
Marschallin trembles slightly toward the gorgeous East.On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 12:41:12 PM UTC-7, deb wrote:
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the
her own awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a trueSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and
and courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons sheThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts
business from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating theThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on
happiness. Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort...Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's
Concerning the Japanese movie SEVEN SAMURAI, consider what the son of a farmer said about the samurai who were the ruling class in Japan:Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty!
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 9:29:25 PM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:Eva in bed together!
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
The difference between Sachs and the Marschallin that everyone always overlooks is that the Marschallin gave in to her (some would say perverse) desires, whereas Sachs did not. Just imagine if Die Meistersinger began with a scene with Hans Sachs and
This is why I cannot think of these two characters as being at all similar, and why I find Sachs admirable, and the Marschallin much less so.I think I agree with you, REP. A married woman with a young lover is an altogether more 20th C. device than a widower quietly in love with a friend's daughter.
REP
slightly toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! ButCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.Concerning the Japanese movie SEVEN SAMURAI, consider what the son of a farmer said about the samurai who were the ruling class in Japan:
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty!
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
slightly toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! ButCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.Concerning the Japanese movie SEVEN SAMURAI, consider what the son of a farmer said about the samurai who were the ruling class in Japan:
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty!
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 1:22:23 PM UTC-8, ..wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale ofThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts toAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for
ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the
Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! ButCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.Concerning the Japanese movie SEVEN SAMURAI, consider what the son of a farmer said about the samurai who were the ruling class in Japan:
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty!
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_SamuraiConcerning "Seven Samurai" and norms:
- Yet, in a normal world, the political authorities should sense both a duty and their self-interest in protecting the producing class from unfair treatment.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/How_to_Improve_Your_Movie_Literacy_With/vMWfDAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Yet,%20in%20a%20normal%20world,%20the%20political%20authorities%20should%22
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1,slightly toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Poor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.'...Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 7:26:52 AM UTC-7, deb wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Sunday, 18 October 2020 at 16:40:55 UTC+1,
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
from his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale ofThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business
Likewise the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at theOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness.
him. Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts toAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for
ones who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the
weaving becomes an inversion of the Rhine motif). They sing of long ago when they wove at the base of the World Ash Tree. There Wotan gave up an eye to drink from the stream of wisdom, but also he tore a limb from the tree to make his spear. Because ofPoor Gilda. But that is a different opera. There are many operas with plots built around the abuse of power--from 'The Marriage of Figaro' through, as you say, 'Rigoletto,' to 'Turandot.'...Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.
What about Gotterdammerung's Wotan?:
- This [prologue] mirrors the opening of Rhinegold with the three Rhinedaughters and the crime against nature with the theft of the gold, which Wagner reminds us of with the Rhine motif. Three Norns, Erda’s daughters, weave the threads of fate (their
https://larryavisbrown.com/ring-of-the-nibelung-twilight/
slightly toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! ButCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
Think of Rigoletto's worry for his daughter Gilda.Concerning the Japanese movie SEVEN SAMURAI, consider what the son of a farmer said about the samurai who were the ruling class in Japan:
- What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty!
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai
toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how toThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand?
slightly toward the gorgeous East.https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings youSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakening
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from his
Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottom here,Of course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise the
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones who
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,slightly toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,slightly toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,slightly toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,slightly toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian:The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers,
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
Can it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:45:33 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their ownCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)If persons have no rights, then aren't they basically slaves subject to abuse because they are at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:45:33 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their ownCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)If persons have no rights, then aren't they basically slaves subject to abuse because they are at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:45:33 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their ownCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)If persons have no rights, then aren't they basically slaves subject to abuse because they are at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 9:29:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
"In Panama, Nature Now Has Rights Just Like People and Corporations":
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 9:29:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
"In Panama, Nature Now Has Rights Just Like People and Corporations":
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html"Giving nature human rights could be the best way to protect the planet" (2019 article):
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/
On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 8:45:33 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:slightly toward the gorgeous East.
On Monday, October 12, 2020 at 7:07:33 PM UTC-7,
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles
awakening realization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend bringsSachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own
courtiers, and has probably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teachesThe Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and
his landed estate, he meets his banker's daughter, and decides that the city life will suit him very well--Nueremberg offers him a treasure and prize that he will never find elsewhere. As I see it, when the opera opens, he's negotiating the sale of hisThe real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.Thank you for your informative reply. You are obviously more familiar with the operas than me. But here is my more generalized take.
Consider the letter 'r'.
In a society, shouldn't everyone have rights, even those at the bottom?
But shouldn't everyone also have responsibilities, even those at the top?
And shouldn't one of those responsibilities of those at the top to protect the rights of those at the bottom?
And shouldn't even those at the bottom have the right to live normal lives?
Isn't it more normal for persons who are close in age as Eva and Walther are (and as Octavian and Sophie are) to get married to each other?
Isn't a moral of both operas that just because one is at the top of the pecking order, doesn't mean that one should turn everything into a power trip just because one has the upper hand.
I don't see either opera as being primarily about social stratification, rights and responsibilities--unlike 'The Marriage of Figaro,' which goes into both issues thoroughly, and with mordant wit. When Walther comes to Nueremberg on business from
the Marschallin, in 'giving' Oktavian to Sophie, says farewell to her youth, and is left with the same bittersweet comfort. Though in her case, remember, there's never a question of her marrying Oktavian, as she's married already. Who is at the bottomOf course people similar in age are going to pair off, and it is normal, and the conclusion of each opera celebrates it. Although Sachs is too wise to endure 'King Mark's sorrow', he will comfort his disappointment with Eva's happiness. Likewise
Hugo von Hoffmansthal was a snob, as is shown by Ochs' title, 'Baron Ochs auf (not /von/) Lerchenau--clearly he isn't the social equal of the librettist! Oktavian's clumsy impersonation of a maidservant spurs him to some even clumsier attempts to gropeAs to society in 'Der Rosenkavalier:' the Marschallin and Oktavian are upper-class. Baron Ochs is a couple of tiers lower in the social scale, and it's clear that Sophie's parents aren't that skilled at social climbing, if they'll settle for him.
who are laughably outclassed, and really shouldn't aspire to love.So no, I don't see the moral you do, because the 'pecking order' is less clear in Mastersingers, and sent up in Rosenkavalier. The 'upper hand' in both cases shifts from one character to another, and the only people on 'power trips' are the ones
routine. My cruelty and love of power were already too firmly set for persuasion to have any effect on me... Whenever I was in a bad temper the eunuchs would be in for trouble."[125][128]......The Chinese eunuchs [at the Summer Palace]...had their ownCan it be normal for a person to be forced to live a life of constant worry and anxiety because they are at the mercy of the will (and whims) of those who are socially above them?- I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. (James Madison)
- There comes a time when out of a false good there arises a true evil, since the encroachments of the rich are more destructive to the constitution than those of the people. ("Politics", Aristotle)If persons have no rights, then aren't they basically slaves subject to abuse because they are at the mercy of the whims of those socially above them?:
- However, eunuchs as the [Chinese] Emperor's slaves had no rights and could be abused at the Emperor's whim. The Emperor Puyi recalled in his memoirs of growing up in the Forbidden City that: "By the age of 11, flogging eunuchs was part of my daily
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuchs_in_China#Qing_dynasty
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 9:29:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
"In Panama, Nature Now Has Rights Just Like People and Corporations":
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html"Giving nature human rights could be the best way to protect the planet" (2019 article):
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 9:29:25 PM UTC-7, ...@gmail.com wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Could a message of Meistersigner and Rosenkavalier be?:
- Hierarchy shouldn't be allowed to blind one to normality.
On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 6:43:04 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 7:26:30 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 9:29:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOc
Giving rights prevents exploitation by restraining parasitic and predatory behavior.
"In Panama, Nature Now Has Rights Just Like People and Corporations":
https://www.ecowatch.com/panama-nature-rights.html"Giving nature human rights could be the best way to protect the planet" (2019 article):
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24332492-800-giving-nature-human-rights-could-be-the-best-way-to-protect-the-planet/"How a Tribal Rights Lawyer Is Winning Back the Rights of Nature":
https://countercurrents.org/2023/04/how-a-tribal-rights-lawyer-is-winning-back-the-rights-of-nature/
On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 05:29:25 UTC+1, ...@gmail.com wrote:toward the gorgeous East.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.music.opera/GkIp1DQbGOcNo, no! I'm afraid I must disagree with this! The parallel differences in age in each case is nothing to the difference in moral compass. Sachs' and Eva's point due north, while Oktavian is but mad nor-nor-west, and the Marschallin trembles slightly
Sachs and Eva have known each other since the latter's childhood--Frau Sachs probably baked her biscuits--the the sudden blossoming possibilities between them spring from Pogner's ill-judged boast and promise on her behalf, and her own awakeningrealization of her sexual power through Walther's headlong courtship. If you're being swept along by a torrent, you will grab at anything that looks strong and steady enough to save you, and see no other way to safety until a true friend brings you
The Marschallin's knowledge of human nature is also deep and forgiving, not from experiencing love and loss in her marriage, but from experiencing it outside marriage, with all that that implies. She is wise in the ways of courts and courtiers, and hasprobably had a serial seraglio, so to speak, of young men to tutor in courtly delights. The playful, delicate deception of her absent husband and houseful of servants is taken for granted by her, and is one of the lessons she teaches Oktavian: how to
The real parallel, perhaps, is that each is a tale of love sweetly gained, with just enough bitter edge to add savour to the sweetness.
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