On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving a battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I have
yet to change the batteries. This includes UPS' with 1 battery (desk
stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

Recently had a power failure that lasted 3 hours. The "backoffice"
system went the distance. The desktop ones lasted nearly 1.5 hours (the stations that have laptops had no issues, of course).

I have a "new" UPS here (home) that I bought ca. 2017. No issues at
all. It often trips in whenever the printer starts.

The alarm system battery (not APC but similar lead-acid battery) was
changed after about 5 years based on a message from the alarm system.
That cost about CAD$22.

--
"Mr Speaker, I withdraw my statement that half the cabinet are asses -
half the cabinet are not asses."
-Benjamin Disraeli

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving a
battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it. About 1955, a
man invented a pulse charger for things like fork lifts and emergency
lights because, he'd found, it could be left on continuously without
harm to a battery. Sears marketed a car battery charger like that. I
think it had one transistor. As the battery voltage rose, the pulses
narrowed to a trickle charge, and a pulsed trickle charge is harmless.

It took decades for pulse chargers to become common. Nowadays, a lot of
smart chargers shut their pulses off and don't charge again until the
battery voltage falls.

I bought the APC because I didn't know of a UPS that didn't leave a DC
trickle charge on the battery. Now I find that they made their battery compartment 1/2" narrower than the standard battery. I might have
thought that for a premium price, I could buy their replacement, but
they don't sell them. They sold me the UPS to offer me an upgrade, and
if I buy a more expensive model, they'll remove the hazardous waste that
my UPS has become.

It would be far more pleasing to buy a better model of another brand.
What's a good model?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <t7tapr$27h$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns@nospam.com>
wrote:

I bought the APC because I didn't know of a UPS that didn't leave a DC trickle charge on the battery. Now I find that they made their battery compartment 1/2" narrower than the standard battery.

no they didn't.

apc upses use standard lead-acid batteries which are available anywhere.

you might need to reuse connectors in some models, but that's about it.

which apc ups do you have?

I might have
thought that for a premium price, I could buy their replacement, but
they don't sell them.

yes they do, although those are more costly than aftermarket batteries.

They sold me the UPS to offer me an upgrade, and
if I buy a more expensive model, they'll remove the hazardous waste that
my UPS has become.

they do offer upgrades, but that's generally not cost-effective unless
you're upgrading to a bigger and better model.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/9/22 2:02 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving a
battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I have
yet to change the batteries.  This includes UPS' with 1 battery (desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

Recently had a power failure that lasted 3 hours.  The "backoffice"
system went the distance.  The desktop ones lasted nearly 1.5 hours (the stations that have laptops had no issues, of course).

I have a "new" UPS here (home) that I bought ca. 2017.  No issues at
all.  It often trips in whenever the printer starts.

The alarm system battery (not APC but similar lead-acid battery) was
changed after about 5 years based on a message from the alarm system.
That cost about CAD$22.

After I got the alarm and red flashing light the second time, I removed
the battery hooked it to a 1-amp bulb for 15 minutes. The voltage under
that load looked normal. As soon as I switched to a 4-amp bulb, the
current dropped to milliamps. The acid must have eaten through a
conductor. I haven't even seen that listed as a cause of UPS battery
failure.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/9/22 2:02 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving a
battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I have
yet to change the batteries.  This includes UPS' with 1 battery (desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

Recently had a power failure that lasted 3 hours.  The "backoffice"
system went the distance.  The desktop ones lasted nearly 1.5 hours (the stations that have laptops had no issues, of course).

I have a "new" UPS here (home) that I bought ca. 2017.  No issues at
all.  It often trips in whenever the printer starts.

Why plug your printer into a UPS? Sucks current, function not critical,
etc. I never do and suspect that most folks don't either...

--
Why is it that the politicians who want more government control over
your life are the same ones who want you to be disarmed?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-10 08:39, Wade Garrett wrote:

On 6/9/22 2:02 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving
a battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I
have yet to change the batteries.  This includes UPS' with 1 battery
(desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

Recently had a power failure that lasted 3 hours.  The "backoffice"
system went the distance.  The desktop ones lasted nearly 1.5 hours
(the stations that have laptops had no issues, of course).

I have a "new" UPS here (home) that I bought ca. 2017.  No issues at
all.  It often trips in whenever the printer starts.

Why plug your printer into a UPS? Sucks current, function not critical,
etc. I never do and suspect that most folks don't either...

Never said it was. But the printer is on the same circuit as the
computers in my home office. When it starts it draws a lot of current
so the voltage sags causing the UPS to kick in for a second or 2.

If there were another circuit available for the printer, I'd plug it in
there. But there isn't. This end of the house is far from the breaker
panel as well, which doesn't help with the voltage sag.

Don't print all that much, so it's not much of an issue.

--
"Mr Speaker, I withdraw my statement that half the cabinet are asses -
half the cabinet are not asses."
-Benjamin Disraeli

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/10/22 11:30 AM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-10 08:39, Wade Garrett wrote:

On 6/9/22 2:02 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving
a battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I
have yet to change the batteries.  This includes UPS' with 1 battery
(desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

Recently had a power failure that lasted 3 hours.  The "backoffice"
system went the distance.  The desktop ones lasted nearly 1.5 hours
(the stations that have laptops had no issues, of course).

I have a "new" UPS here (home) that I bought ca. 2017.  No issues at
all.  It often trips in whenever the printer starts.

Why plug your printer into a UPS? Sucks current, function not
critical, etc. I never do and suspect that most folks don't either...

Never said it was.  But the printer is on the same circuit as the
computers in my home office.  When it starts it draws a lot of current
so the voltage sags causing the UPS to kick in for a second or 2.

If there were another circuit available for the printer, I'd plug it in there.  But there isn't.  This end of the house is far from the breaker panel as well, which doesn't help with the voltage sag.

Don't print all that much, so it's not much of an issue.

Ah so, a good example of the tyranny of assumption on my part!

--
Why is it that the politicians who want more government control over
your life are the same ones who want you to be disarmed?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-09 17:31:38 +0000, J Burns said:

What's a better UPS?

FedEx? DHL? ;-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-10 18:39, Wade Garrett wrote:

On 6/10/22 11:30 AM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-10 08:39, Wade Garrett wrote:

On 6/9/22 2:02 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected.
Leaving a battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I
have yet to change the batteries.  This includes UPS' with 1 battery
(desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

Recently had a power failure that lasted 3 hours.  The "backoffice"
system went the distance.  The desktop ones lasted nearly 1.5 hours
(the stations that have laptops had no issues, of course).

I have a "new" UPS here (home) that I bought ca. 2017.  No issues at
all.  It often trips in whenever the printer starts.

Why plug your printer into a UPS? Sucks current, function not
critical, etc. I never do and suspect that most folks don't either...

Never said it was.  But the printer is on the same circuit as the
computers in my home office.  When it starts it draws a lot of current
so the voltage sags causing the UPS to kick in for a second or 2.

If there were another circuit available for the printer, I'd plug it
in there.  But there isn't.  This end of the house is far from the
breaker panel as well, which doesn't help with the voltage sag.

Don't print all that much, so it's not much of an issue.

Ah so, a good example of the tyranny of assumption on my part!

Not like I put up a diagram, so let's call it a draw and enjoy the weekend!

--
"Mr Speaker, I withdraw my statement that half the cabinet are asses -
half the cabinet are not asses."
-Benjamin Disraeli

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-10 18:19, Your Name wrote:

On 2022-06-09 17:31:38 +0000, J Burns said:

What's a better UPS?

FedEx? DHL?   ;-)

FedEx? Perhaps, even: sure.

DHL? The word "sucks" lacks sufficient vacuum.

--
"Mr Speaker, I withdraw my statement that half the cabinet are asses -
half the cabinet are not asses."
-Benjamin Disraeli

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-09 at 11:31:38 MDT, "J Burns" <burns@nospam.com> wrote:

It would be far more pleasing to buy a better model of another brand.
What's a good model?

I've been pleased with CyberPower's PFC Sinewave models. Can't say that
they're tremendously better than APC's, but they do tend to be a little cheaper. (I've never used TrippLite, the other big name.)

<https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups/>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> writes:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving
a battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I
have yet to change the batteries. This includes UPS' with 1 battery
(desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

The standard best practice for a UPS in a datacenter is to replace
lead-acid batteries every 5 years, and some places do it every 4.

I really wouldn't recommend using batteries for 8 years. :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2022-06-19 15:21, Bud Frede wrote:

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> writes:

On 2022-06-09 13:31, J Burns wrote:

The battery in my APC failed after three years, as expected. Leaving
a battery on a DC charge is a pretty quick way to ruin it.

I have APC UPSs at work that have been in service since 2014 and I
have yet to change the batteries. This includes UPS' with 1 battery
(desk stations) and 2 batteries ("backoffice" backup power).

The standard best practice for a UPS in a datacenter is to replace
lead-acid batteries every 5 years, and some places do it every 4.

I really wouldn't recommend using batteries for 8 years. :-)

Lead acid batteries seeing little cycling in a benign environment don't
worry me much. Real enemy is lots of deep cycles in a very hot, or
very, very cold environment.

The other day we had storms in the area and intermittent "blinks", all
of the UPS' kicked in (work and at home), no power lost at all.

--
“Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present
danger to American democracy.”
- J Michael Luttig - 2022-06-16
- Former US appellate court judge (R) testifying to the January 6
committee

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/10/22 10:44 PM, Neill Massello wrote:

On 2022-06-09 at 11:31:38 MDT, "J Burns" <burns@nospam.com> wrote:

It would be far more pleasing to buy a better model of another brand.
What's a good model?

I've been pleased with CyberPower's PFC Sinewave models. Can't say that they're tremendously better than APC's, but they do tend to be a little cheaper. (I've never used TrippLite, the other big name.)

<https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups/>

I see it uses standard battery dimensions. I see they have two batteries recommended for it: 8 and 9 amp hours. The price difference is small,
and the warranty is the same. I wonder why they sell the one with less capacity.

I saw a model --- I think it was Cyberpower --- with two batteries. That
makes them hot swappable in the event of a long outage.

It would also make testing easy. Without shutting down, you could remove
a battery, hook it up to a certain load, and see how long it stayed
above a certain voltage. According to the SAE, that's the best way of
telling if a car battery should be replaced. For a 12 volt car battery,
I believe the cuttoff voltage is 10.5 and the load is 25 amps. IIRC, if
it lasts 40% of the published reserve minutes, its okay. (Maybe I'm
wrong about the percent.)

I've found that this can rejuvenate a car battery. APC recommends it to
help a battery's service life. I think twice a year you unplug the UPS
and draw current until it cuts off. They didn't mention that with my UPS.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <t9fr9l$16knn$1@dont-email.me>, J Burns <burns@nospam.com>
wrote:

I saw a model --- I think it was Cyberpower --- with two batteries. That makes them hot swappable in the event of a long outage.

nope. hot swap depends on the design of the ups itself, not the number
of batteries.

It would also make testing easy. Without shutting down, you could remove
a battery, hook it up to a certain load, and see how long it stayed
above a certain voltage. According to the SAE, that's the best way of
telling if a car battery should be replaced.

the ups does that by itself.

For a 12 volt car battery,
I believe the cuttoff voltage is 10.5 and the load is 25 amps. IIRC, if
it lasts 40% of the published reserve minutes, its okay. (Maybe I'm
wrong about the percent.)

you're wrong about all of that.

I've found that this can rejuvenate a car battery. APC recommends it to
help a battery's service life. I think twice a year you unplug the UPS
and draw current until it cuts off. They didn't mention that with my UPS.

that's for calibration, not to extend its life.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)