• Wikiwand Apple II character set errors?

    From eriknoc@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 29 12:15:41 2021
    This web page is driving me bonkers. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Apple_II_character_set


    Apple IIe
    These characters are all completely in the wrong places.

    Apple II/IIc
    $80-9F Normal Uppercase (should be noted as control chars, not uppercase) $E0-FF Normal Lowercase (II's don't have lowercase, but IIc's do)

    Apple IIc alternate
    $00-1F Control names are listed and not control characters?
    $80-FF Inverse characters and MouseText present in High ASCII?

    Apple IIgs
    Looks okay.

    Apple II+
    This one has the low ASCII used in Applesoft, along with high ASCII being Applesoft tokens and error messages. This is all fine and dandy on how Applesoft interprets ASCII and TOKENS, but this is not II+ specific.
    In addition:
    $60-7F Normal lowercase (doesn't exist on II+)
    $00-1F Control characters are all blanked out


    I'm about ready to go in and make some changes. At the risk of sounding dumb here, am I wrong in my thinking that a lot of this page is wrong? I'm not familiar with telecommunications control characters. I am, however, very familiar with and confident
    on my understanding of the various systems screen values, along with the Applesoft ASCII/tokens and the Integer tokens/ASCII sets. Am I correct in my belief that this page has a lot of things wrong, or is there something I'm not aware of that's going to
    throw everything I know out the window? -_-

    I'm 99% sure that I'm right. My 1% doubt is that someone obviously knew enough about Apple II's to publish some things that are correct, but I'm so perplexed on how they could have gotten so many things wrong. Did they know of something that I don't?

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  • From D Finnigan@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Fri Oct 29 19:23:16 2021
    eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    I'm 99% sure that I'm right. My 1% doubt is that someone obviously knew enough about Apple II's to publish some things that are correct, but I'm
    so
    perplexed on how they could have gotten so many things wrong. Did they
    know of something that I don't?

    The amount of erroneous information in this world is staggering, beyond
    belief. It occurs in every conceivable field of human interest, and is propagated the same way: by people who merely copy without verifying.

    If you want to verify, I'd suggest looking at the Apple reference manuals
    (for the original II, IIe, and so on). They usually had a character set
    table toward the back in some appendix.

    --
    ]DF$
    The New Apple II User's Guide:
    https://macgui.com/newa2guide/

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  • From eriknoc@gmail.com@21:1/5 to D Finnigan on Fri Oct 29 13:52:52 2021
    On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 2:23:16 PM UTC-5, D Finnigan wrote:
    eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    I'm 99% sure that I'm right. My 1% doubt is that someone obviously knew enough about Apple II's to publish some things that are correct, but I'm so
    perplexed on how they could have gotten so many things wrong. Did they know of something that I don't?
    The amount of erroneous information in this world is staggering, beyond belief. It occurs in every conceivable field of human interest, and is propagated the same way: by people who merely copy without verifying.

    If you want to verify, I'd suggest looking at the Apple reference manuals (for the original II, IIe, and so on). They usually had a character set table toward the back in some appendix.

    --
    ]DF$
    The New Apple II User's Guide:
    https://macgui.com/newa2guide/
    Okay. Good enough for me. I made an ASCII screen code viewer program and checked it out on various systems in AppleWin, and even checked between primary and alternate character sets. Not sure about the IIc and IIc Plus because AppleWin doesn't support
    them, though I'm pretty sure they're the same as the IIe screen codes. But yeah, I'll definitely refer to the official reference manuals to verify everything. Thank you for the response and I'm glad to know I'm not going crazy. LOL.

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  • From fadden@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Sat Oct 30 07:40:57 2021
    On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 12:15:42 PM UTC-7, eri...@gmail.com wrote:
    This web page is driving me bonkers. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Apple_II_character_set

    A few years back I added some notes to the "talk" page for that entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Apple_II_character_set

    Some related info here:
    https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/q/8652

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  • From eriknoc@gmail.com@21:1/5 to fadden on Thu Nov 4 18:11:33 2021
    On Saturday, October 30, 2021 at 9:40:58 AM UTC-5, fadden wrote:
    On Friday, October 29, 2021 at 12:15:42 PM UTC-7, eri...@gmail.com wrote:
    This web page is driving me bonkers. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Apple_II_character_set
    A few years back I added some notes to the "talk" page for that entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Apple_II_character_set

    Some related info here:
    https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/q/8652

    Thank you for pointing that out. One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all the IIc'
    s and the Enhanced IIe. The original IIe didn't even have MouseText, but it did have inverse lowercase and a duplicate of the inverse uppercase. So this makes me wonder about the Apple IIe card. I found that the flashing text was replaced with red
    characters on black background, or black on red (depending on options settings), but I'm having difficulty finding anything on the MouseText characters for it, if it uses the original or revised versions. I'm guessing that if it doesn't specifically say
    "revised" or "updated", then it's probably the original. I will omit my findings on the IIe card since it's incomplete, unless someone here can point me to an authentic source that clarifies this. I'm still working on a plan of attack for updating the
    page. I don't want to be too hasty on this.

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  • From Steve Nickolas@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Fri Nov 5 22:38:39 2021
    On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
    the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the
    IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
    the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.

    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

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  • From eriknoc@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Steve Nickolas on Sat Nov 6 02:08:42 2021
    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
    the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
    the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says otherwise, please share. Also, I'm
    happy to list my source.

    Apple IIe Owner's Guide (Platinum)(1986), p.133(pdf-151) https://www.apple.asimov.net/documentation/hardware/machines/ > Apple IIe Owner's Guide.pdf
    The original MouseText had the running man for characters F and G.  You can see for yourself in this official owner's guide that this has the newer characters, not the running man.

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  • From Steve Nickolas@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Sat Nov 6 21:59:56 2021
    On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
    the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the
    IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
    the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe
    and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.

    I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
    original Enhanced.

    I no longer have it to check though.

    -uso.

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  • From eriknoc@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Steve Nickolas on Thu Nov 11 16:30:09 2021
    On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 9:00:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
    the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the >>> IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all >>> the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe
    and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.
    I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
    original Enhanced.

    I no longer have it to check though.

    -uso.
    If that's the case...
    Are there any current Platinum IIe owners in this forum that can confirm which version of MouseText theirs has? Could it be that some have version 1 and some had version 2?

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  • From awanderin@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Thu Nov 11 20:25:25 2021
    "eri...@gmail.com" <eriknoc@gmail.com> writes:

    On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 9:00:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
    the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the >> >>> IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all >> >>> the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe
    and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just >> > saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says
    otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.
    I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
    original Enhanced.

    I no longer have it to check though.

    -uso.
    If that's the case...
    Are there any current Platinum IIe owners in this forum that can confirm which version of
    MouseText theirs has? Could it be that some have version 1 and some had version 2?

    In addition, the Video ROM part number is 342-0306-A, if that helps out
    anyone.

    --
    --
    Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com

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  • From awanderin@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Thu Nov 11 20:22:27 2021
    "eri...@gmail.com" <eriknoc@gmail.com> writes:

    On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 9:00:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has
    the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the >> >>> IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all >> >>> the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe
    and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just >> > saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says
    otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.
    I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
    original Enhanced.

    I no longer have it to check though.

    -uso.
    If that's the case...
    Are there any current Platinum IIe owners in this forum that can confirm which version of
    MouseText theirs has? Could it be that some have version 1 and some had version 2?

    Just checked. My platinum IIe has the running-man characters in the 'F'
    and 'G' positions. serial # 3A2S2 E711038A2S2128C, model # A2S2128

    --
    --
    Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com

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  • From eriknoc@gmail.com@21:1/5 to awanderin on Wed Nov 17 15:08:43 2021
    On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 9:25:27 PM UTC-6, awanderin wrote:
    "eri...@gmail.com" <eri...@gmail.com> writes:

    On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 9:00:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote:
    On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote: >> >> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has >> >>> the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the
    IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
    the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe >> > and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just
    saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says >> > otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.
    I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
    original Enhanced.

    I no longer have it to check though.

    -uso.
    If that's the case...
    Are there any current Platinum IIe owners in this forum that can confirm which version of
    MouseText theirs has? Could it be that some have version 1 and some had version 2?
    In addition, the Video ROM part number is 342-0306-A, if that helps out anyone.
    --
    --
    Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
    It does, thank you. It's interesting though. My Enhanced IIe's Video ROM is 342-0265-A, and it has the same MouseText as yours. The thought occurred to search the web for Apple II Video ROM's, and I found some .bin files with most of them labeled with
    their parts number. By the way, does anyone know what that 4 digit number at the end of each file name means?

    I looked at the first few bytes a few of the first half of some of the IIe/IIc files and found that it was all the screen characters from the alternate set with the pixel data being inverted. I have no idea about the second half of the file as it doesn'
    t appear to be character data or even 6502 instructions. I'm thinking it may have something to do with video timing or the handling of primary/alternate character sets. Or maybe it's information on how the graphic screens work. Does anyone here know
    what it is?

    There's also a file named "Apple IIe Video - Enhanced - IIgs F-G MouseText Fix- 2732.bin" with no part number. Shouldn't there be a part number with this?

    https://wiki.reactivemicro.com/Apple_Chip_Designations
    @Jerry - According to this source, your Video ROM is French. Is that what you have?

    bin files: https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Apple%20II%20Items/ROM_and_JEDEC/IIe/Video%20ROM/
    http://www.applelogic.org/APPLEASICs.html https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=23998

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  • From awanderin@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Wed Nov 17 22:25:59 2021
    "eri...@gmail.com" <eriknoc@gmail.com> writes:

    On Thursday, November 11, 2021 at 9:25:27 PM UTC-6, awanderin wrote:
    "eri...@gmail.com" <eri...@gmail.com> writes:

    On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 9:00:01 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote: >> >> On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Friday, November 5, 2021 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-5, Steve Nickolas wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, 4 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    One surprising thing I've learned so far is that the Platinum IIe has >> >> >>> the revised MouseText character set (running man replaced) like on the
    IIgs, and not the original MouseText (running man present) like on all
    the IIc's and the Enhanced IIe.
    That's not my experience.

    -uso.

    Could you please elaborate? Are you saying you've used a Platinum IIe >> >> > and you haven't experienced the revised MouseText on it, or are you just
    saying you're not surprised it's there? If you have a source that says >> >> > otherwise, please share. Also, I'm happy to list my source.
    I'm pretty sure that my old Platinum had the same MouseText as the
    original Enhanced.

    I no longer have it to check though.

    -uso.
    If that's the case...
    Are there any current Platinum IIe owners in this forum that can confirm which version of
    MouseText theirs has? Could it be that some have version 1 and some had version 2?
    In addition, the Video ROM part number is 342-0306-A, if that helps out
    anyone.
    --
    --
    Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com
    It does, thank you. It's interesting though. My Enhanced IIe's Video ROM is 342-0265-A,
    and it has the same MouseText as yours. The thought occurred to search the web for Apple
    II Video ROM's, and I found some .bin files with most of them labeled with their parts
    number. By the way, does anyone know what that 4 digit number at the end of each file
    name means?

    If you're referring to the 2716, 2732, or 2764, it's the type/size of
    ROM/EPROM in which the contents are stored. 2716 chips are 2 kilobyte
    EPROMs, 2732 are 4kB, and 2764 are 8kB.

    I looked at the first few bytes a few of the first half of some of the IIe/IIc files and
    found that it was all the screen characters from the alternate set with the pixel data
    being inverted. I have no idea about the second half of the file as it doesn't appear to
    be character data or even 6502 instructions. I'm thinking it may have something to do
    with video timing or the handling of primary/alternate character sets. Or maybe it's
    information on how the graphic screens work. Does anyone here know what it is?

    All the video data goes through the character ROM: text, lo-res, and
    hi-res, including double-res modes. Look for James Sather's
    "Understanding the Apple IIe". It describes this ROM in detail in
    chapter 8.


    There's also a file named "Apple IIe Video - Enhanced - IIgs F-G MouseText Fix- 2732.bin"
    with no part number. Shouldn't there be a part number with this?

    There are lots of ROM files kicking around the web. I have quite a
    collection of them. Perhaps, if you have the `sha1sum1` command-line
    tool on your computer, computer the SHA1 hash of the file.

    Here's a list of all the IIe-related ROM files I have collected and
    their SHA1 sum:

    0dc93e94a236f50aca92e3afff8e486dbfaf5fc3 IIEDBV6.BIN 127dd1fa955dbf85949e19e114d9ac235a802a0d 342-0284A-2716.bin 12a2e718f5f4acd69b6c33a45a4a940b1440a481 342-0132-C_iie-keyboard_2716.bin 3aecc56a26134df51e65e17f33ae80c1f1ac93e6 342-0304-A_iie-enhanced-CD_2764.rom 3aecc56a26134df51e65e17f33ae80c1f1ac93e6 apple-iie_cd-enhanced.rom 4043e0808af8be096660827445e41149d16c5c85 Apple_IIe_Video_French_Canadian-Enhanced-2732.bin
    42afb02aab4146f781ac52803a2733adc4da834e Apple_IIe_Video_French_Canadian-Unenhanced-341-0168-A-2732.bin
    47bb9608be38ff75429a989b930a93b47099648e 341-0150-A_iie-keyboard_2716.bin 48aafa9a72002c495bc1f3d28150630ff89ca47e 341-0160-A_iie-video-euro-enhanced_2764.rom
    523838c19c79f481fa02df56856da1ec3816d16e 342-0135-B_iie-unenhanced-CD_2764.rom 523838c19c79f481fa02df56856da1ec3816d16e apple-iie_cd-orig.rom 58ad0008df72896a18601e090ee0d58155ffa5be 342-0133-A_iie-video-unenhanced_2732.rom
    59ea6d22282c2554ee8a3da7faf095ff3b105eb3 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-ABEL_Equations.txt
    8895a4b703f2184b673078f411f4089889b61c54 342-0134-A_iie-unenhanced-EF_2764.rom 8895a4b703f2184b673078f411f4089889b61c54 apple-iie_ef-orig.rom 8e14e85c645187504ec9d162b3ea614a0c421d32 342-0132-D_iie-keyboard_2716.bin a6cca6c569dba80aeb789c9cb7292f93dab00c29 341-0161-A_iie-video-deutsch-usa.rom a6cca6c569dba80aeb789c9cb7292f93dab00c29 341-0161-A_iie-video-enhanced-german_2764.rom
    afb09bb96038232dc757d40c0605623cae38088e 342-0303-A_iie-enhanced-EF_2764.rom afb09bb96038232dc757d40c0605623cae38088e apple-iie_ef-enhanced.rom b2b5d87f52693817fc747df087a4aa1ddcdb1f10 342-0265-A_iie-video-enhanced_2732.rom
    b8ea90abe135a0031065e01697c4a3a20d51198b 342-0349-B_iie-platinum-CF_27128_c000-ffff_1985.rom
    b8ea90abe135a0031065e01697c4a3a20d51198b apple2e-platinum-cf.bin c0a4fa9e073f6466011502098a4275be39aaa813 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-PAL16R8.jed
    c17d5812d72211b71674a6faa03c34cc8ff967f1 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-ABEL_Equations_Labeled.txt
    c2f249589ee02121c27336af022bbca0cc9b2245 342-0132-B_iie-keyboard_2716.bin c44809bbb017bfe3c07dc99e87a3a9fa7b9741c3 341-0151-A_iie-keyboard-deutsch-usa.rom
    c44809bbb017bfe3c07dc99e87a3a9fa7b9741c3 341-0151-A_iie-keyboard-german_2716.rom
    d0c9b008f87b1f5a06df3fc3bb0a8243036187f0 342-0284A-2732.bin d756eba578a6c5a4807510dfee30ee585c63755e apple2e.rom fa53db6c055960eb2f2eef7cd2827a426a70b945 Apple_IIe-IIc_TMG-341-0170-A-GAL16V8.JED

    If your file matches one of these with a product number on it, you'll
    know what it is. For example, one of the files in this list is `apple-iie_ef-enhanced.rom`, and you'll see it has the same SHA1 as `342-0303-A_iie-enhanced-EF_2764.rom`. This example is not enlightening because both files do describe the contents as the enhanced EF ROM.


    https://wiki.reactivemicro.com/Apple_Chip_Designations
    @Jerry - According to this source, your Video ROM is French. Is that what you have?

    My IIe is a Canadian model. It has a switch under the keyboard, at the
    front, to switch between English and French characters. So, it's both
    French and English.

    bin files: https://downloads.reactivemicro.com/Apple%20II%20Items/ROM_and_JEDEC/IIe/Video%20ROM/
    http://www.applelogic.org/APPLEASICs.html https://macgui.com/downloads/?file_id=23998


    --
    --
    Jerry awanderin at gmail dot com

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  • From Steve Nickolas@21:1/5 to eri...@gmail.com on Sat Nov 20 03:04:03 2021
    On Wed, 17 Nov 2021, eri...@gmail.com wrote:

    It does, thank you. It's interesting though. My Enhanced IIe's Video
    ROM is 342-0265-A, and it has the same MouseText as yours. The thought occurred to search the web for Apple II Video ROM's, and I found some
    .bin files with most of them labeled with their parts number. By the
    way, does anyone know what that 4 digit number at the end of each file
    name means?

    I looked at the first few bytes a few of the first half of some of the IIe/IIc files and found that it was all the screen characters from the alternate set with the pixel data being inverted. I have no idea about
    the second half of the file as it doesn't appear to be character data or
    even 6502 instructions. I'm thinking it may have something to do with
    video timing or the handling of primary/alternate character sets. Or
    maybe it's information on how the graphic screens work. Does anyone
    here know what it is?

    There's also a file named "Apple IIe Video - Enhanced - IIgs F-G
    MouseText Fix- 2732.bin" with no part number. Shouldn't there be a part number with this?

    I guess in that file, "2732" means burn to a 2732 chip?

    -uso.

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