On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 10:25:15 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:48:00 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:53:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 9:05:05 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 10:12:01 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 6:40:34 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 3:13:39 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 11:37:16 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 9:21:07 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 6:17:51 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 1:47:07 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 12:16:56 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:30:17 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:19:40 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 8:33:08 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
...
My main personal financial challenge this summer has been estate planning, including paperwork
for funding revised trusts. And, my investment advisor changed firms and his staff made an error
in the 401k transfer that is taking a while to fix. My retirement income is now about $20k a month
(Hmm...)With how much of that likely being due to being RMDs? 33%? More?
Having said that, recent expenses for estate planning, unplanned dental issues, and...
2024 upfront travel payments have stretched the cash flow a bit. :)
Idiot, If I sell my house I can buy something similar, a multi-bedroom condo, another house,And since the same is the same for Alan too, why even mention this?
or use the money to fund assisted living.
Alan faces major hurdles if he wants to get anything larger, but so do I."And since the same is the same for Alan too, why even mention this?"
The difference is I already own a roomy home, he is living in something on the order of my 2.5 car garage.Which the Market says is still worth more than your place, so so what? Its not like he's been
expressing complaints about inadequate living space, so other than to express your own feelings
of comparative inferiority, why do you care?
No need to check the local Metro stations. The hotel is across the street from Gare MontparnasseBeing proximate to major train stations has convenient transit links, sure, but also downsides
with multiple Metro lines. I'll figure out the ticketing later.
such as often more noise, business establishments that many travelers find .. unsavory.
Plus there's also invariably more pickpockets looking to prey on tourists.
We will be using RoisyBus to get to the hotel, after that all transfers are included.Good choice IMO. Do take some time pre-departure to "map out" the route from where
the RoisyBus stops at Opera and how to get to the Opera Metro entrance. Likewise, map
out in advance the plan for the Metro to get to your destination stop: which line, in which
direction (and what's the wrong direction), where to transfer, how many stops en route, etc.
FYI, the Opera station also has staircases to navigate with one's luggage (I didn't bother
looking to see if there were any elevators).
It was an expensive dentist bill, and another one coming in January.
Took me a bit to find it:
"Only those with victim disorder regard health care as broken."
- Tom Elam, Apr 28, 2023 [11:54:39 AM]
But the major short-term stress is pre-pay for Canada and France trips.Reducing stress is what trip insurance is for (FYI, a $15K & 12 month policy from Allianz is just $1.5K)
OTOH the cash is in savings, so it's just me fretting about it.
You have your preferences, I have mine. You seem to think you have it all figured out,Nah, I only need to have it figured out better than you do.
and you do for yourself. Via la difference.
-hh
Hugh, you sum it all up with "Nah, I only need to have it figured out better than you do. "
Merely because that suffices to deflate your puffed up ego.
Your best solution is not anybody else's best solution. You just think it is to make you feel superior.
Nah, unlike you, I’m not trying to brag about being the best.
What does RMD income matter?
For one thing, RMDs are taxed as ordinary income, rather than lower rates
such as via LTCG, so it merits a temporal optimization analysis to see about
strategies to minimize income taxes due, rather than just ignoring it.
It just shows I was successful in accumulating wealth.
Which we’ve already been unnecessarily been told about, ad nauseam.
About half the income is pensions/Social Security. A big piece has become
dividend funds in recent years. The rest is RMD.
At this point stock appreciation has far outpaced RMD withdrawals. Based on
historic stock returns I have another decade or so before %RMD hits even 7%.
If the market keeps up until then I can always pay the taxes and put some back
if I want to. But, who knows if I'll even need to fret over that?
I never said my dental bills make me a victim of a broken health insurance system.
No, you said that my comment which noted that they’re expensive means I was trying
to be a victim, while I never actually complaining about such personal expenses:
I was explicitly commenting on how US healthcare is broken to cause such high expenses.
It's more than dental bills. Legal bills for trust revisions, unexpected bills for HVAC issues,
fall property taxes, the trip west, and balance due on our Vail lift tickets all had to be paid
over September/October. Well, the property tax is due November 15. After that the spend
burn cools down again.
Where the trust revisions, property taxes, and vacation costs are all very clearly highly
discretionary and/or highly predictable, leaving just dental & HVAC as budget “surprises”.
Anyway, I keep a healthy checking/savings balance I am probably worrying because
I have so little else to worry about.
Where “healthy” is still low enough that you get stressed over something sub-$10K… /s
As for Alan, …
Except for how it’s yet another burr under your saddle, cowboy…irrelevant.
As for the Paris Metro I know it VERY well. I don't need instructions.
Even when jet-lagged? Given your whines about airfare costs, for you to be
paying for Business Class is more than just a tad unlikely.
Roisey Bus-Red Line/Opera-Les Halles-Purple Line/Montparnasse Bienvenue-Figure 30 minutes.
2 minute walk to the hotel.
Then to Versailles, just the Green Line train. Did that a few years back.
Green Line goes to Versailles Chantiers, not Versailles Château Rive Gauche.
The Yellow RER-C to Rive Gauche cuts off a kilometer (each way) of walking.
To anywhere in Paris just look at the map, and make sure you have a paper
copy with you. Ce n’est pas un problème pour moi monsieur!
I so like to still have a crib sheet for planning, but there’s iPhone Apps today which
make it much easier, especially while on the fly. Plus there’s tools now that help
to ID the optimal exit to use based on where you’re going after you get off.
But you be you.
We will figure out the escalators when we get there. I don't rememberI wasn’t referencing escalators, but rather that there’s sections which totally lack
many Metro stations with elevators.
any automation for elevation changes: just straight-up staircases to lug up/down.
You or I may implicitly understand these, but you did mention that you’re traveling
with two who’ve never been there before, so “forewarned is forearmed” applies.
Like I said we will figure it out when we get there.Which is taking the risk of being cognitively reduced due to jet lag.
If they don't want to go Metro with the baggage we will get a taxi.Sure .. but the nearest taxi stand to the Roissybus stop at Opéra is .. which direction?
Oh, right: without prior planning you do not know how close/far a taxi stand may be,
let alone with direction.
The hotel's Metro station is literally across the street from the hotel, which sets us up nicely for touring the city.Sure, and with the accompanying pedestrian crowds, especially at peak commuter periods,
which is also why its going to be a half hour (minimum) each time you go out anywhere.
Yes, my RMD income is ordinary income. But it's been accumulating with no taxes paid on
contributions and earnings since I started the program in 1982. I don't need any formal analysis
to know that putting that money back for current income at age 77 was a good idea.
Except the point was for looking to optimize its taxation. But if you're happy to not plan & fork out
an extra, oh, +5% or so just on higher marginal income taxes ... that's again your business: just
kindly avoid all complaining about inflation rates when being tax-inefficient.
Hugh, I have one of the best financial advisors in the area. Based on his advice (andAt that point in time, that may have been good advice. But the 2017 TCJA threw a curveball.
just common sense) we put back all we could in a self-employed 401K during my high
earning years, paying no income taxes, just Medicare and FICA, on 401K contributions.
Now that I'm retired with no earned income and enjoying earnings from that money putWith how much of that due to the TCJA versus lower income?
back for many years my marginal tax rate is the same or lower than when I had earned income.
My marginal FIT rate this year is 22%.Which is an AGI for MFJ of roughly $90K to $191K … for now. If you’re on the upper end of
that, after the TCJA expires, your Marginal income tax rate will jump from 22% to 32%.
The obvious way to minimize that is to Rothify more now, before the rates expire: eating
up the current 24% bracket enables converting up to an AGI of $354K, which saves 8%
percentage points (32% vs 24%) on marginal tax rates. If you don’t want to believe me, go ask
your financial advisor.
I looked up 2014. It was about average for self-employed earnings. My marginal FIT rateWhich was pre-TCJA, plus it looks like you’re also including self-employed SSA & Medicare %’s.
was 15%. But, only because I put $33.6k into the 401k. Had I not done so the marginal
rate would have been 25%. As it was, the total federal marginal rate was 15% + 1.45% +
12.4% = 28.45% (but slightly lower as half the FICA was deductible.) Had I not put money
back in the 401K the marginal rate was 38.45%.
The 2014 Roth limit was $6,500, far less than the 401K. For tax deferred wealth accumulationIrrelevant to the contemplation of doing Roth conversions today from a 401(k) and/or Traditional IRA.
long term the 401K was the way to go. The conventional IRA limit was also $6,500, much lower
than the 401k. The game-changer for me was the much higher 401K limits ($54,600 in 2014)
in a time when we were making a very comfortable income on pensions and consulting income.
In 2014 we went to Colorado for 2 weeks, Hawaii for a week, and spent 2+ weeks touringFor us, 2014 was only a couple of weeks in the Caymans, a pair of domestic flights to TN, plus
England, Scotland and Ireland.
over to Switzerland & Italy in Europe too…all with zero subsidies/leveraging from business travel.
I received a new passport yesterday, and looking forward to using it next year!Hope that you opted for the “extra pages” option upfront, as on our last renewal we found
that Dept State had discontinued the “add pages” option for passports after issue.
My advisor and I modelled alternatives when I started the business, and the self-employed“Blue Chip Stocks appreciate; film at 11.” /s
401k was by far the way to go. Before that, when I was working for Lilly, the company 401K
money was matched up to $-for-$ with company stock. When I retired the stock I was gifted
(with zero immediate tax consequences) all those 20+ years was worth far more than what
I put in. Had I not contributed to the 401K there would have been no stock match and I would
not be anywhere near I am today at over $3 mill net worth and no debt.
As an aside, since we were married in 2003 our #1 discretionary expense category is by far vacations.Based on what you’ve said/shared, an “aside” parameterized estimate is that it’s ~$20K/yr.
Your situation may be far different. :)
Perhaps it is different.. or perhaps it is not: money buys down risks, and increases opportunities
and comfort/convenience, but it doesn’t guarantee happiness.
My goodness, you seem to think that the old rate brackets will not be adjusted forEven with bracket adjustments, you’ll still likely be in a higher % payment, as illustrated
inflation if the TCJA is not renewed.
by the single year change between 2017 and 2018: today’s 22% bracket was 25%, a
difference of 3 percentage points (or ~13% more, if you prefer) and similarly, 24% today
was 28%: a 4% point delta (+17%).
From 2016 to 2023 the CPI increased 28%. Adjust the 2016 brackets for that, and IYou should have said 2017, which was $153.1K. Plus +28% = $196K, which is above last
think that is now law, and my taxable income is at the top of the 25% bracket, nowhere
near hitting 32%.
year’s $178,150 and this year’s $190,750 tops of the current 22% bracket.
A Roth conversion would result in taxes I'll not have to pass along to causes I believe in.That scenario assumes a 100% conversion to Roth. So just don’t convert 100%.
I'll absorb any increase in taxes to preserve that capital. Those causes will not pay taxes
on what they receive. It's not all about me. Apparently you are not considering that angle.
But I see your point.Which is that tax rates are going Up, so a tax minimization optimization strategy is to
convert now to “fill up” the remainder of one’s current tax bracket…
…but it’s worth noting that where one is may merit doing more: to Rothify up through the
24% bracket too can be beneficial when already at the top of what will revert to the 25%
bracket because particularly as RMDs increase, one risks crossing into the 28% bracket.
Thus, the opportunity today is to have a 4% point tax savings.
Plus, even if one doesn’t grow income enough to ever cross out of 25% into 28%, it’s still
24% vs 25% marginal taxation rate, so it’s still a 1% point tax advantage on the table.
Naturally, a caveat is the free cash flow to pay. Since the 24% bracket is just $340K-$178K =
$162K “wide”, the Fed tax is just $39K, all other things equal…and the 1% to 4% point tax
savings potential benefit is $1.6K and $6.4K, respectively.
The 2014 vacations were all personal expenses, no business trips involved. I traveledEven so, it was just one international trip which IIRC was your choir group trip…not really
to Beruit and Brussels on business, but did not take vacation time on those.
huge bucks involved, even despite flying out of “only cargo is an international flight” Indy.
And yes, stocks and home values appreciate, which is how I built my nest egg. News at 11.Reduce the egg by 28% to “de-inflate” it for this retrospective & you’re back to $2.1M /s
I was not aware of the extra passport pages option and issue. Sadly at my age I think theGood news for you is that you won’t have to worry about the EU Visa: it was postponed (again).
17 pages they gave me is enough. :( If not I'll be glad to buy another passport. I can afford it.
You about right on the $20k spend per year, but that's in $2023. Consider inflation's impactWhereas the comments I made years ago was that your claims enabled twice that.
and it's more in real terms. Like $20k today was $33 in 2003. Shocking.
Try the small step of just Premium Economy into get away from crying babies.
I conclude, I am playing my own long-term game and have my own preferences. I know myNo, I’ve not claimed your goals/plans are wrong. I’ve just noted where your choices for
goals and have a good advisor. Your goals and plans are different. Yet not having the
complete picture you insist you have a better plan for me. LOL.
what you’ve planned for yourself could probably have been done materially better.
2014 was just one year of travel.
Your entire premise is based on an assumption that the TCJA will expire with no further action
by Congress to extend or modify. That is a house of cards. When it becomes clearer as to what
will happen I may take actions based on facts, not assumptions.
Silence from Tom.True, it is based on an assumption that TCJA will expire. Given how the Republicans
are ranting about the deficit, and it would provide Biden with a legislative “win”, do you
really think it’s likely?
Just for fun I ran a $350k Roth IRA conversion through the Schwab model. It showed no advantage to me.
https://www.schwab.com/ira/ira-calculators/roth-ira-conversion?src=SEM&s_kwcid=AL!5158!10!79302482218171!21312015311&ef_id=6f734ed0c9ee1d15ff1d2b977852d3db:G:s&keywordid=21312015311&msclkid=6f734ed0c9ee1d15ff1d2b977852d3db
Ibid.Looks like the data didn’t pass through.
In any event, $350K ignores the point I made of optimizing for the brackets: try keeping
your sum AGI under $364K to stay out of the 32% bracket.
Typing up an illustration is what one does when the link alone doesn’t do it.For example, such as income $180K & Rothify $150K = $330K: at +1 year and 5.8%
“Moderate” (& skipping State), delta is just $2,588 less but it’s now after $35,785 paid
(~24%) been made forever tax-exempt, reducing your taxable RMDs by ~$17K/yr.
I have not planned this outcome all alone. Your alternative could reduce the funds
available to charitable organizations in our estate plan that will pay zero tax when
they cash out the IRA money. IRA only.
From further below, it sounds like Tom is implying that his near term intent is to donateExcept as was already said before (but you’re not listening), if the funds are dedicated
for charity, then simply don’t Rothify the funds you intend to donate. Ever.
100% of his IRA RMD to charity. Just how much (or little) that is hasn’t been recently shared
(if ever). Nevertheless,Tom will continue to include this balance in his net worth claims,
as well as unlikely to consider other options such as a CRT (Charitable Remainder Trust),
as some of these offer a big single-year tax write-off which can offset jumps in AGI when
exercising a Cap Gain which would otherwise increase next year’s Medicare Part B rates.
Before the end of the year the 401k will get rolled over to an IRA.
In other words, a Red Herring statement from Tom since as described is has no tax implications.Without Rothifying anything, this is transparent from a taxable event standpoint,
as well as future taxes going forward from having the RMDs combined. The only
difference it makes is for QCDs, if the IRA RMD was less than the intended annual
charity donation amount…which itself has a QCD limit of no more than $100K/yr.
There’s other advantaged vehicles to do that, which typically work better when using
clustering strategies for taxation optimization.
This will somewhat simplify tax filing and make significantly more RMD funds eligible
for Qualified Charitable Distributions which are adjustments to taxable income thus
not taxed at all.
Merely because 401(k)’s aren’t eligible to do QCDs from.
Your claim of "materially better" is patently false. You are playing around with very
small differences in marginal tax rates.
The (22% vs 25%) and (24% vs 28%) expected taxation rate differences are a 3%-4%
improvement on the portion that one chooses to retain for one’s retirement income.
For your $350K hypothetical, that’s $10K-$14K (airline seat upgrades on two vacations).
You are ignoring the potential impact on money that would be materially taxed in the
current year and not at all in the future when it passes to qualified charitable
organizations absent those taxes paid currently.
False, because I’ve already said to *not* apply this to funds you intend to donate via QCD.
Apparently you don't plan to leave the majority of a multi-million dollar estate to charity.
No, that’s already set up. The difference is that I’m not donating 100% while still living,
for we want to be self-sufficient unto the end. Ironically, there’s also tax-advantaged
elements to this consideration as well to plan ahead for.
LOL. In 2022 I cashed out a $600k stock portfolio and invested in an income fund.The Medicare Part B income brackets are spaced only ~$50K, so your gains were
The capital gains pushed me into 2 brackets higher on 2024 Part B and Part D Medicare
premiums.
no more than ~$150K…and could have been as little as ~$65K.
That hurt.
Two brackets is <$200/yr for Medicare part B, and sincd Medicare rates are based on
just the prior year’s income, it’s just 1 year = ~$2K total = a minor transient bruise.
Roth would do the same. Did you consider that increased expense?
Of course I did .. which is why I’m Rothifying before we turn age 64, so as to have
at least a one year gap before Medicare kicks in. Sounds like you’re paying now for
not anticipating this years ago.
Essentially ALL of my IRA/401k investments are going to charity. You just assumedNah, I parsed that part aside in my statement already, since you’ve neither disclosed
I would not do that.
what your IRA balance is, nor your level of charitable giving to know if it’s 100% or not.
I cannot convert to Roth and not reduce the funds they will receive.And what if after you move more money from your 401k into IRA, as per above?
Again, you assume facts not in evidence to support your position. Why do you go off onNah, we know that you chronically cherry-pick and not clearly disclose the factors,
tangents and not ask questions? OH, I know. You just want to pretend you know what
you are talking about!
which is why I’ve anticipated you and included the appropriate caveats such as:
“That scenario assumes a 100% conversion to Roth. So just don’t convert 100%.”,
and
“False, because I’ve already said to *not* apply this to funds you intend to donate via QCD.”
So if you want to sound knowledgable, then explain why you didn’t choose to use something
like a CRT back in 2022 to prevent your income spike which raised your Medicare rates.
There’s IIRC a half dozen or so permutations to consider, so don’t try to claim that the
example of just CRT doesn’t “fit” your needs…main reason I can think of offhand is that
you’re not fully confident in having sufficiently surplus wealth to commit to charities.
Oh my, you are so operating in a vacuum, making assumptions based on facts not in evidence.
I am never going to disclose all the data.
But to start, in 2022 I sold a stock portfolio. The LTCG and RMD income is what pushed me into
higher Medicare rates. Yes, the money had been in the stock fund for a long time, the gains were
over $150k.
Potentially similar to the income you are proposing for a Roth conversion.
But the FIT LTCG rate was only 15%.
On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 9:57:16 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 10:25:15 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:48:00 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:53:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 9:05:05 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 10:12:01 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 6:40:34 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 3:13:39 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 11:37:16 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 9:21:07 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 6:17:51 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 1:47:07 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 12:16:56 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:30:17 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:19:40 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 8:33:08 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
...
My main personal financial challenge this summer has been estate planning, including paperwork
for funding revised trusts. And, my investment advisor changed firms and his staff made an error
in the 401k transfer that is taking a while to fix. My retirement income is now about $20k a month
(Hmm...)With how much of that likely being due to being RMDs? 33%? More?
Having said that, recent expenses for estate planning, unplanned dental issues, and...
2024 upfront travel payments have stretched the cash flow a bit. :)
Idiot, If I sell my house I can buy something similar, a multi-bedroom condo, another house,And since the same is the same for Alan too, why even mention this?
or use the money to fund assisted living.
Alan faces major hurdles if he wants to get anything larger, but so do I."And since the same is the same for Alan too, why even mention this?"
The difference is I already own a roomy home, he is living in something on the order of my 2.5 car garage.Which the Market says is still worth more than your place, so so what? Its not like he's been
expressing complaints about inadequate living space, so other than to express your own feelings
of comparative inferiority, why do you care?
No need to check the local Metro stations. The hotel is across the street from Gare MontparnasseBeing proximate to major train stations has convenient transit links, sure, but also downsides
with multiple Metro lines. I'll figure out the ticketing later.
such as often more noise, business establishments that many travelers find .. unsavory.
Plus there's also invariably more pickpockets looking to prey on tourists.
We will be using RoisyBus to get to the hotel, after that all transfers are included.Good choice IMO. Do take some time pre-departure to "map out" the route from where
the RoisyBus stops at Opera and how to get to the Opera Metro entrance. Likewise, map
out in advance the plan for the Metro to get to your destination stop: which line, in which
direction (and what's the wrong direction), where to transfer, how many stops en route, etc.
FYI, the Opera station also has staircases to navigate with one's luggage (I didn't bother
looking to see if there were any elevators).
It was an expensive dentist bill, and another one coming in January.
Took me a bit to find it:
"Only those with victim disorder regard health care as broken."
- Tom Elam, Apr 28, 2023 [11:54:39 AM]
But the major short-term stress is pre-pay for Canada and France trips.Reducing stress is what trip insurance is for (FYI, a $15K & 12 month policy from Allianz is just $1.5K)
OTOH the cash is in savings, so it's just me fretting about it.
You have your preferences, I have mine. You seem to think you have it all figured out,Nah, I only need to have it figured out better than you do.
and you do for yourself. Via la difference.
-hh
Hugh, you sum it all up with "Nah, I only need to have it figured out better than you do. "
Merely because that suffices to deflate your puffed up ego.
Your best solution is not anybody else's best solution. You just think it is to make you feel superior.
Nah, unlike you, I’m not trying to brag about being the best.
What does RMD income matter?
For one thing, RMDs are taxed as ordinary income, rather than lower rates
such as via LTCG, so it merits a temporal optimization analysis to see about
strategies to minimize income taxes due, rather than just ignoring it.
It just shows I was successful in accumulating wealth.
Which we’ve already been unnecessarily been told about, ad nauseam.
About half the income is pensions/Social Security. A big piece has become
dividend funds in recent years. The rest is RMD.
At this point stock appreciation has far outpaced RMD withdrawals. Based on
historic stock returns I have another decade or so before %RMD hits even 7%.
If the market keeps up until then I can always pay the taxes and put some back
if I want to. But, who knows if I'll even need to fret over that?
I never said my dental bills make me a victim of a broken health insurance system.
No, you said that my comment which noted that they’re expensive means I was trying
to be a victim, while I never actually complaining about such personal expenses:
I was explicitly commenting on how US healthcare is broken to cause such high expenses.
It's more than dental bills. Legal bills for trust revisions, unexpected bills for HVAC issues,
fall property taxes, the trip west, and balance due on our Vail lift tickets all had to be paid
over September/October. Well, the property tax is due November 15. After that the spend
burn cools down again.
Where the trust revisions, property taxes, and vacation costs are all very clearly highly
discretionary and/or highly predictable, leaving just dental & HVAC as budget “surprises”.
Anyway, I keep a healthy checking/savings balance I am probably worrying because
I have so little else to worry about.
Where “healthy” is still low enough that you get stressed over something sub-$10K… /s
As for Alan, …
Except for how it’s yet another burr under your saddle, cowboy…irrelevant.
As for the Paris Metro I know it VERY well. I don't need instructions.
Even when jet-lagged? Given your whines about airfare costs, for you to be
paying for Business Class is more than just a tad unlikely.
Roisey Bus-Red Line/Opera-Les Halles-Purple Line/Montparnasse Bienvenue-Figure 30 minutes.
2 minute walk to the hotel.
Then to Versailles, just the Green Line train. Did that a few years back.
Green Line goes to Versailles Chantiers, not Versailles Château Rive Gauche.
The Yellow RER-C to Rive Gauche cuts off a kilometer (each way) of walking.
To anywhere in Paris just look at the map, and make sure you have a paper
copy with you. Ce n’est pas un problème pour moi monsieur!
I so like to still have a crib sheet for planning, but there’s iPhone Apps today which
make it much easier, especially while on the fly. Plus there’s tools now that help
to ID the optimal exit to use based on where you’re going after you get off.
But you be you.
We will figure out the escalators when we get there. I don't rememberI wasn’t referencing escalators, but rather that there’s sections which totally lack
many Metro stations with elevators.
any automation for elevation changes: just straight-up staircases to lug up/down.
You or I may implicitly understand these, but you did mention that you’re traveling
with two who’ve never been there before, so “forewarned is forearmed” applies.
Like I said we will figure it out when we get there.Which is taking the risk of being cognitively reduced due to jet lag.
If they don't want to go Metro with the baggage we will get a taxi.Sure .. but the nearest taxi stand to the Roissybus stop at Opéra is .. which direction?
Oh, right: without prior planning you do not know how close/far a taxi stand may be,
let alone with direction.
The hotel's Metro station is literally across the street from the hotel, which sets us up nicely for touring the city.Sure, and with the accompanying pedestrian crowds, especially at peak commuter periods,
which is also why its going to be a half hour (minimum) each time you go out anywhere.
Yes, my RMD income is ordinary income. But it's been accumulating with no taxes paid on
contributions and earnings since I started the program in 1982. I don't need any formal analysis
to know that putting that money back for current income at age 77 was a good idea.
Except the point was for looking to optimize its taxation. But if you're happy to not plan & fork out
an extra, oh, +5% or so just on higher marginal income taxes ... that's again your business: just
kindly avoid all complaining about inflation rates when being tax-inefficient.
Hugh, I have one of the best financial advisors in the area. Based on his advice (andAt that point in time, that may have been good advice. But the 2017 TCJA threw a curveball.
just common sense) we put back all we could in a self-employed 401K during my high
earning years, paying no income taxes, just Medicare and FICA, on 401K contributions.
Now that I'm retired with no earned income and enjoying earnings from that money putWith how much of that due to the TCJA versus lower income?
back for many years my marginal tax rate is the same or lower than when I had earned income.
My marginal FIT rate this year is 22%.Which is an AGI for MFJ of roughly $90K to $191K … for now. If you’re on the upper end of
that, after the TCJA expires, your Marginal income tax rate will jump from 22% to 32%.
The obvious way to minimize that is to Rothify more now, before the rates expire: eating
up the current 24% bracket enables converting up to an AGI of $354K, which saves 8%
percentage points (32% vs 24%) on marginal tax rates. If you don’t want to believe me, go ask
your financial advisor.
I looked up 2014. It was about average for self-employed earnings. My marginal FIT rateWhich was pre-TCJA, plus it looks like you’re also including self-employed SSA & Medicare %’s.
was 15%. But, only because I put $33.6k into the 401k. Had I not done so the marginal
rate would have been 25%. As it was, the total federal marginal rate was 15% + 1.45% +
12.4% = 28.45% (but slightly lower as half the FICA was deductible.) Had I not put money
back in the 401K the marginal rate was 38.45%.
The 2014 Roth limit was $6,500, far less than the 401K. For tax deferred wealth accumulationIrrelevant to the contemplation of doing Roth conversions today from a 401(k) and/or Traditional IRA.
long term the 401K was the way to go. The conventional IRA limit was also $6,500, much lower
than the 401k. The game-changer for me was the much higher 401K limits ($54,600 in 2014)
in a time when we were making a very comfortable income on pensions and consulting income.
In 2014 we went to Colorado for 2 weeks, Hawaii for a week, and spent 2+ weeks touringFor us, 2014 was only a couple of weeks in the Caymans, a pair of domestic flights to TN, plus
England, Scotland and Ireland.
over to Switzerland & Italy in Europe too…all with zero subsidies/leveraging from business travel.
I received a new passport yesterday, and looking forward to using it next year!Hope that you opted for the “extra pages” option upfront, as on our last renewal we found
that Dept State had discontinued the “add pages” option for passports after issue.
My advisor and I modelled alternatives when I started the business, and the self-employed“Blue Chip Stocks appreciate; film at 11.” /s
401k was by far the way to go. Before that, when I was working for Lilly, the company 401K
money was matched up to $-for-$ with company stock. When I retired the stock I was gifted
(with zero immediate tax consequences) all those 20+ years was worth far more than what
I put in. Had I not contributed to the 401K there would have been no stock match and I would
not be anywhere near I am today at over $3 mill net worth and no debt.
As an aside, since we were married in 2003 our #1 discretionary expense category is by far vacations.Based on what you’ve said/shared, an “aside” parameterized estimate is that it’s ~$20K/yr.
Your situation may be far different. :)
Perhaps it is different.. or perhaps it is not: money buys down risks, and increases opportunities
and comfort/convenience, but it doesn’t guarantee happiness.
My goodness, you seem to think that the old rate brackets will not be adjusted forEven with bracket adjustments, you’ll still likely be in a higher % payment, as illustrated
inflation if the TCJA is not renewed.
by the single year change between 2017 and 2018: today’s 22% bracket was 25%, a
difference of 3 percentage points (or ~13% more, if you prefer) and similarly, 24% today
was 28%: a 4% point delta (+17%).
From 2016 to 2023 the CPI increased 28%. Adjust the 2016 brackets for that, and IYou should have said 2017, which was $153.1K. Plus +28% = $196K, which is above last
think that is now law, and my taxable income is at the top of the 25% bracket, nowhere
near hitting 32%.
year’s $178,150 and this year’s $190,750 tops of the current 22% bracket.
A Roth conversion would result in taxes I'll not have to pass along to causes I believe in.That scenario assumes a 100% conversion to Roth. So just don’t convert 100%.
I'll absorb any increase in taxes to preserve that capital. Those causes will not pay taxes
on what they receive. It's not all about me. Apparently you are not considering that angle.
But I see your point.Which is that tax rates are going Up, so a tax minimization optimization strategy is to
convert now to “fill up” the remainder of one’s current tax bracket…
…but it’s worth noting that where one is may merit doing more: to Rothify up through the
24% bracket too can be beneficial when already at the top of what will revert to the 25%
bracket because particularly as RMDs increase, one risks crossing into the 28% bracket.
Thus, the opportunity today is to have a 4% point tax savings.
Plus, even if one doesn’t grow income enough to ever cross out of 25% into 28%, it’s still
24% vs 25% marginal taxation rate, so it’s still a 1% point tax advantage on the table.
Naturally, a caveat is the free cash flow to pay. Since the 24% bracket is just $340K-$178K =
$162K “wide”, the Fed tax is just $39K, all other things equal…and the 1% to 4% point tax
savings potential benefit is $1.6K and $6.4K, respectively.
The 2014 vacations were all personal expenses, no business trips involved. I traveledEven so, it was just one international trip which IIRC was your choir group trip…not really
to Beruit and Brussels on business, but did not take vacation time on those.
huge bucks involved, even despite flying out of “only cargo is an international flight” Indy.
And yes, stocks and home values appreciate, which is how I built my nest egg. News at 11.Reduce the egg by 28% to “de-inflate” it for this retrospective & you’re back to $2.1M /s
I was not aware of the extra passport pages option and issue. Sadly at my age I think theGood news for you is that you won’t have to worry about the EU Visa: it was postponed (again).
17 pages they gave me is enough. :( If not I'll be glad to buy another passport. I can afford it.
You about right on the $20k spend per year, but that's in $2023. Consider inflation's impactWhereas the comments I made years ago was that your claims enabled twice that.
and it's more in real terms. Like $20k today was $33 in 2003. Shocking.
Try the small step of just Premium Economy into get away from crying babies.
I conclude, I am playing my own long-term game and have my own preferences. I know myNo, I’ve not claimed your goals/plans are wrong. I’ve just noted where your choices for
goals and have a good advisor. Your goals and plans are different. Yet not having the
complete picture you insist you have a better plan for me. LOL.
what you’ve planned for yourself could probably have been done materially better.
2014 was just one year of travel.
Your entire premise is based on an assumption that the TCJA will expire with no further action
by Congress to extend or modify. That is a house of cards. When it becomes clearer as to what
will happen I may take actions based on facts, not assumptions.
Silence from Tom.True, it is based on an assumption that TCJA will expire. Given how the Republicans
are ranting about the deficit, and it would provide Biden with a legislative “win”, do you
really think it’s likely?
Just for fun I ran a $350k Roth IRA conversion through the Schwab model. It showed no advantage to me.
https://www.schwab.com/ira/ira-calculators/roth-ira-conversion?src=SEM&s_kwcid=AL!5158!10!79302482218171!21312015311&ef_id=6f734ed0c9ee1d15ff1d2b977852d3db:G:s&keywordid=21312015311&msclkid=6f734ed0c9ee1d15ff1d2b977852d3db
Ibid.Looks like the data didn’t pass through.
In any event, $350K ignores the point I made of optimizing for the brackets: try keeping
your sum AGI under $364K to stay out of the 32% bracket.
For example, such as income $180K & Rothify $150K = $330K: at +1 year and 5.8%
“Moderate” (& skipping State), delta is just $2,588 less but it’s now after $35,785 paid
(~24%) been made forever tax-exempt, reducing your taxable RMDs by ~$17K/yr.
Typing up an illustration is what one does when the link alone doesn’t do it.
I have not planned this outcome all alone. Your alternative could reduce the funds
available to charitable organizations in our estate plan that will pay zero tax when
they cash out the IRA money. IRA only.
Except as was already said before (but you’re not listening), if the funds are dedicated
for charity, then simply don’t Rothify the funds you intend to donate. Ever.
From further below, it sounds like Tom is implying that his near term intent is to donate
100% of his IRA RMD to charity. Just how much (or little) that is hasn’t been recently shared
(if ever). Nevertheless,Tom will continue to include this balance in his net worth claims,
as well as unlikely to consider other options such as a CRT (Charitable Remainder Trust),
as some of these offer a big single-year tax write-off which can offset jumps in AGI when
exercising a Cap Gain which would otherwise increase next year’s Medicare Part B rates.
Before the end of the year the 401k will get rolled over to an IRA.
Without Rothifying anything, this is transparent from a taxable event standpoint,
as well as future taxes going forward from having the RMDs combined. The only
difference it makes is for QCDs, if the IRA RMD was less than the intended annual
charity donation amount…which itself has a QCD limit of no more than $100K/yr.
There’s other advantaged vehicles to do that, which typically work better when using
clustering strategies for taxation optimization.
In other words, a Red Herring statement from Tom since as described is has no tax implications.
This will somewhat simplify tax filing and make significantly more RMD funds eligible
for Qualified Charitable Distributions which are adjustments to taxable income thus
not taxed at all.
Merely because 401(k)’s aren’t eligible to do QCDs from.
Your claim of "materially better" is patently false. You are playing around with very
small differences in marginal tax rates.
The (22% vs 25%) and (24% vs 28%) expected taxation rate differences are a 3%-4%
improvement on the portion that one chooses to retain for one’s retirement income.
For your $350K hypothetical, that’s $10K-$14K (airline seat upgrades on two vacations).
You are ignoring the potential impact on money that would be materially taxed in the
current year and not at all in the future when it passes to qualified charitable
organizations absent those taxes paid currently.
False, because I’ve already said to *not* apply this to funds you intend to donate via QCD.
Apparently you don't plan to leave the majority of a multi-million dollar estate to charity.
No, that’s already set up. The difference is that I’m not donating 100% while still living,
for we want to be self-sufficient unto the end. Ironically, there’s also tax-advantaged
elements to this consideration as well to plan ahead for.
LOL. In 2022 I cashed out a $600k stock portfolio and invested in an income fund.
The capital gains pushed me into 2 brackets higher on 2024 Part B and Part D Medicare
premiums.
The Medicare Part B income brackets are spaced only ~$50K, so your gains were
no more than ~$150K…and could have been as little as ~$65K.
That hurt.
Two brackets is <$200/yr for Medicare part B, and sincd Medicare rates are based on
just the prior year’s income, it’s just 1 year = ~$2K total = a minor transient bruise.
Your annual income Your monthly premium in 2023
Couples
Equal to or below $194,000 $164.90
$194,001 – $246,000 $230.80
$246,001 – $306,000 $329.70
$306,001 – $366,000 $428.60
$366,001 – $749,999 $527.50
$750,000 and above $560.50
<https://www.medicareinteractive.org/get-answers/medicare-health-coverage-options/original-medicare-costs/part-b-costs-for-those-with-higher-incomes>
For the claimed "two bracket" shift, starting point has to be the MFJ <$194,000, due to claim
of having been in the 22% marginal tax bracket, which runs from $83,550 to $178,150. Thus:
<$194,000 $164.90
$246,001 – $306,000 $329.70
= ($329.70 - $164.90) * 12 months = $1977.60/yr
For how much gain caused this increase, using the 22% tax bracket claim again in two
ways: the max Capital Gain flex is bottom of 22% bracket to top of Medicare = ($306K-$84K)
= $222K max. But there's also a 'near the top of' bracket claim, so the $84K point doesn't apply.
Using the 3rd Quintile of the 22% bracket is $140,310, which means the maximum Capital Gain
is (306K - 140K) = $165,690
Not only does this match Tom's "the gains were over $150k.", this insight also allows more
bracketing of his max possible AGI income, which would be: (306K - 150K) = $156K. Then
KISS add in the 2022 Std Deduction of $25.9K and max gross income estimate is just ~$180K
before the conversion.
Roth would do the same. Did you consider that increased expense?
Of course I did .. which is why I’m Rothifying before we turn age 64, so as to have
at least a one year gap before Medicare kicks in. Sounds like you’re paying now for
not anticipating this years ago.
Essentially ALL of my IRA/401k investments are going to charity. You just assumed
I would not do that.
Nah, I parsed that part aside in my statement already, since you’ve neither disclosed
what your IRA balance is, nor your level of charitable giving to know if it’s 100% or not.
I cannot convert to Roth and not reduce the funds they will receive.
And what if after you move more money from your 401k into IRA, as per above?
Again, you assume facts not in evidence to support your position. Why do you go off on
tangents and not ask questions? OH, I know. You just want to pretend you know what
you are talking about!
Nah, we know that you chronically cherry-pick and not clearly disclose the factors,
which is why I’ve anticipated you and included the appropriate caveats such as:
“That scenario assumes a 100% conversion to Roth. So just don’t convert 100%.”,
and
On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 11:02:10 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 9:57:16 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, November 23, 2023 at 10:03:49 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 10:25:15 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 12:48:00 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 8:53:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 9:05:05 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 10:12:01 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 6:40:34 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 3:13:39 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 11:37:16 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 9:21:07 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 6:17:51 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 1:47:07 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 9:48:08 AM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 12:16:56 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:30:17 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:19:40 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 8:33:08 AM UTC-4, Thomas E. wrote:
...
My main personal financial challenge this summer has been estate planning, including paperwork
for funding revised trusts. And, my investment advisor changed firms and his staff made an error
in the 401k transfer that is taking a while to fix. My retirement income is now about $20k a month
(Hmm...)With how much of that likely being due to being RMDs? 33%? More?
Having said that, recent expenses for estate planning, unplanned dental issues, and...
2024 upfront travel payments have stretched the cash flow a bit. :)
Idiot, If I sell my house I can buy something similar, a multi-bedroom condo, another house,And since the same is the same for Alan too, why even mention this?
or use the money to fund assisted living.
Alan faces major hurdles if he wants to get anything larger, but so do I."And since the same is the same for Alan too, why even mention this?"
The difference is I already own a roomy home, he is living in something on the order of my 2.5 car garage.Which the Market says is still worth more than your place, so so what? Its not like he's been
expressing complaints about inadequate living space, so other than to express your own feelings
of comparative inferiority, why do you care?
No need to check the local Metro stations. The hotel is across the street from Gare MontparnasseBeing proximate to major train stations has convenient transit links, sure, but also downsides
with multiple Metro lines. I'll figure out the ticketing later.
such as often more noise, business establishments that many travelers find .. unsavory.
Plus there's also invariably more pickpockets looking to prey on tourists.
We will be using RoisyBus to get to the hotel, after that all transfers are included.Good choice IMO. Do take some time pre-departure to "map out" the route from where
the RoisyBus stops at Opera and how to get to the Opera Metro entrance. Likewise, map
out in advance the plan for the Metro to get to your destination stop: which line, in which
direction (and what's the wrong direction), where to transfer, how many stops en route, etc.
FYI, the Opera station also has staircases to navigate with one's luggage (I didn't bother
looking to see if there were any elevators).
It was an expensive dentist bill, and another one coming in January.
Took me a bit to find it:
"Only those with victim disorder regard health care as broken."
- Tom Elam, Apr 28, 2023 [11:54:39 AM]
But the major short-term stress is pre-pay for Canada and France trips.Reducing stress is what trip insurance is for (FYI, a $15K & 12 month policy from Allianz is just $1.5K)
OTOH the cash is in savings, so it's just me fretting about it.
You have your preferences, I have mine. You seem to think you have it all figured out,Nah, I only need to have it figured out better than you do.
and you do for yourself. Via la difference.
-hh
Hugh, you sum it all up with "Nah, I only need to have it figured out better than you do. "
Merely because that suffices to deflate your puffed up ego.
Your best solution is not anybody else's best solution. You just think it is to make you feel superior.
Nah, unlike you, I’m not trying to brag about being the best.
What does RMD income matter?
For one thing, RMDs are taxed as ordinary income, rather than lower rates
such as via LTCG, so it merits a temporal optimization analysis to see about
strategies to minimize income taxes due, rather than just ignoring it.
It just shows I was successful in accumulating wealth.
Which we’ve already been unnecessarily been told about, ad nauseam.
About half the income is pensions/Social Security. A big piece has become
dividend funds in recent years. The rest is RMD.
At this point stock appreciation has far outpaced RMD withdrawals. Based on
historic stock returns I have another decade or so before %RMD hits even 7%.
If the market keeps up until then I can always pay the taxes and put some back
if I want to. But, who knows if I'll even need to fret over that?
I never said my dental bills make me a victim of a broken health insurance system.
No, you said that my comment which noted that they’re expensive means I was trying
to be a victim, while I never actually complaining about such personal expenses:
I was explicitly commenting on how US healthcare is broken to cause such high expenses.
It's more than dental bills. Legal bills for trust revisions, unexpected bills for HVAC issues,
fall property taxes, the trip west, and balance due on our Vail lift tickets all had to be paid
over September/October. Well, the property tax is due November 15. After that the spend
burn cools down again.
Where the trust revisions, property taxes, and vacation costs are all very clearly highly
discretionary and/or highly predictable, leaving just dental & HVAC as budget “surprises”.
Anyway, I keep a healthy checking/savings balance I am probably worrying because
I have so little else to worry about.
Where “healthy” is still low enough that you get stressed over something sub-$10K… /s
As for Alan, …
Except for how it’s yet another burr under your saddle, cowboy…irrelevant.
As for the Paris Metro I know it VERY well. I don't need instructions.
Even when jet-lagged? Given your whines about airfare costs, for you to be
paying for Business Class is more than just a tad unlikely.
Roisey Bus-Red Line/Opera-Les Halles-Purple Line/Montparnasse Bienvenue-Figure 30 minutes.
2 minute walk to the hotel.
Then to Versailles, just the Green Line train. Did that a few years back.
Green Line goes to Versailles Chantiers, not Versailles Château Rive Gauche.
The Yellow RER-C to Rive Gauche cuts off a kilometer (each way) of walking.
To anywhere in Paris just look at the map, and make sure you have a paper
copy with you. Ce n’est pas un problème pour moi monsieur!
I so like to still have a crib sheet for planning, but there’s iPhone Apps today which
make it much easier, especially while on the fly. Plus there’s tools now that help
to ID the optimal exit to use based on where you’re going after you get off.
But you be you.
We will figure out the escalators when we get there. I don't rememberI wasn’t referencing escalators, but rather that there’s sections which totally lack
many Metro stations with elevators.
any automation for elevation changes: just straight-up staircases to lug up/down.
You or I may implicitly understand these, but you did mention that you’re traveling
with two who’ve never been there before, so “forewarned is forearmed” applies.
Like I said we will figure it out when we get there.Which is taking the risk of being cognitively reduced due to jet lag.
If they don't want to go Metro with the baggage we will get a taxi.Sure .. but the nearest taxi stand to the Roissybus stop at Opéra is .. which direction?
Oh, right: without prior planning you do not know how close/far a taxi stand may be,
let alone with direction.
The hotel's Metro station is literally across the street from the hotel, which sets us up nicely for touring the city.Sure, and with the accompanying pedestrian crowds, especially at peak commuter periods,
which is also why its going to be a half hour (minimum) each time you go out anywhere.
Yes, my RMD income is ordinary income. But it's been accumulating with no taxes paid on
contributions and earnings since I started the program in 1982. I don't need any formal analysis
to know that putting that money back for current income at age 77 was a good idea.
Except the point was for looking to optimize its taxation. But if you're happy to not plan & fork out
an extra, oh, +5% or so just on higher marginal income taxes ... that's again your business: just
kindly avoid all complaining about inflation rates when being tax-inefficient.
Hugh, I have one of the best financial advisors in the area. Based on his advice (andAt that point in time, that may have been good advice. But the 2017 TCJA threw a curveball.
just common sense) we put back all we could in a self-employed 401K during my high
earning years, paying no income taxes, just Medicare and FICA, on 401K contributions.
Now that I'm retired with no earned income and enjoying earnings from that money putWith how much of that due to the TCJA versus lower income?
back for many years my marginal tax rate is the same or lower than when I had earned income.
My marginal FIT rate this year is 22%.Which is an AGI for MFJ of roughly $90K to $191K … for now. If you’re on the upper end of
that, after the TCJA expires, your Marginal income tax rate will jump from 22% to 32%.
The obvious way to minimize that is to Rothify more now, before the rates expire: eating
up the current 24% bracket enables converting up to an AGI of $354K, which saves 8%
percentage points (32% vs 24%) on marginal tax rates. If you don’t want to believe me, go ask
your financial advisor.
I looked up 2014. It was about average for self-employed earnings. My marginal FIT rateWhich was pre-TCJA, plus it looks like you’re also including self-employed SSA & Medicare %’s.
was 15%. But, only because I put $33.6k into the 401k. Had I not done so the marginal
rate would have been 25%. As it was, the total federal marginal rate was 15% + 1.45% +
12.4% = 28.45% (but slightly lower as half the FICA was deductible.) Had I not put money
back in the 401K the marginal rate was 38.45%.
The 2014 Roth limit was $6,500, far less than the 401K. For tax deferred wealth accumulationIrrelevant to the contemplation of doing Roth conversions today from a 401(k) and/or Traditional IRA.
long term the 401K was the way to go. The conventional IRA limit was also $6,500, much lower
than the 401k. The game-changer for me was the much higher 401K limits ($54,600 in 2014)
in a time when we were making a very comfortable income on pensions and consulting income.
In 2014 we went to Colorado for 2 weeks, Hawaii for a week, and spent 2+ weeks touringFor us, 2014 was only a couple of weeks in the Caymans, a pair of domestic flights to TN, plus
England, Scotland and Ireland.
over to Switzerland & Italy in Europe too…all with zero subsidies/leveraging from business travel.
I received a new passport yesterday, and looking forward to using it next year!Hope that you opted for the “extra pages” option upfront, as on our last renewal we found
that Dept State had discontinued the “add pages” option for passports after issue.
My advisor and I modelled alternatives when I started the business, and the self-employed“Blue Chip Stocks appreciate; film at 11.” /s
401k was by far the way to go. Before that, when I was working for Lilly, the company 401K
money was matched up to $-for-$ with company stock. When I retired the stock I was gifted
(with zero immediate tax consequences) all those 20+ years was worth far more than what
I put in. Had I not contributed to the 401K there would have been no stock match and I would
not be anywhere near I am today at over $3 mill net worth and no debt.
As an aside, since we were married in 2003 our #1 discretionary expense category is by far vacations.Based on what you’ve said/shared, an “aside” parameterized estimate is that it’s ~$20K/yr.
Your situation may be far different. :)
Perhaps it is different.. or perhaps it is not: money buys down risks, and increases opportunities
and comfort/convenience, but it doesn’t guarantee happiness.
My goodness, you seem to think that the old rate brackets will not be adjusted forEven with bracket adjustments, you’ll still likely be in a higher % payment, as illustrated
inflation if the TCJA is not renewed.
by the single year change between 2017 and 2018: today’s 22% bracket was 25%, a
difference of 3 percentage points (or ~13% more, if you prefer) and similarly, 24% today
was 28%: a 4% point delta (+17%).
From 2016 to 2023 the CPI increased 28%. Adjust the 2016 brackets for that, and IYou should have said 2017, which was $153.1K. Plus +28% = $196K, which is above last
think that is now law, and my taxable income is at the top of the 25% bracket, nowhere
near hitting 32%.
year’s $178,150 and this year’s $190,750 tops of the current 22% bracket.
A Roth conversion would result in taxes I'll not have to pass along to causes I believe in.That scenario assumes a 100% conversion to Roth. So just don’t convert 100%.
I'll absorb any increase in taxes to preserve that capital. Those causes will not pay taxes
on what they receive. It's not all about me. Apparently you are not considering that angle.
But I see your point.Which is that tax rates are going Up, so a tax minimization optimization strategy is to
convert now to “fill up” the remainder of one’s current tax bracket…
…but it’s worth noting that where one is may merit doing more: to Rothify up through the
24% bracket too can be beneficial when already at the top of what will revert to the 25%
bracket because particularly as RMDs increase, one risks crossing into the 28% bracket.
Thus, the opportunity today is to have a 4% point tax savings.
Plus, even if one doesn’t grow income enough to ever cross out of 25% into 28%, it’s still
24% vs 25% marginal taxation rate, so it’s still a 1% point tax advantage on the table.
Naturally, a caveat is the free cash flow to pay. Since the 24% bracket is just $340K-$178K =
$162K “wide”, the Fed tax is just $39K, all other things equal…and the 1% to 4% point tax
savings potential benefit is $1.6K and $6.4K, respectively.
The 2014 vacations were all personal expenses, no business trips involved. I traveledEven so, it was just one international trip which IIRC was your choir group trip…not really
to Beruit and Brussels on business, but did not take vacation time on those.
huge bucks involved, even despite flying out of “only cargo is an international flight” Indy.
And yes, stocks and home values appreciate, which is how I built my nest egg. News at 11.Reduce the egg by 28% to “de-inflate” it for this retrospective & you’re back to $2.1M /s
I was not aware of the extra passport pages option and issue. Sadly at my age I think theGood news for you is that you won’t have to worry about the EU Visa: it was postponed (again).
17 pages they gave me is enough. :( If not I'll be glad to buy another passport. I can afford it.
You about right on the $20k spend per year, but that's in $2023. Consider inflation's impactWhereas the comments I made years ago was that your claims enabled twice that.
and it's more in real terms. Like $20k today was $33 in 2003. Shocking.
Try the small step of just Premium Economy into get away from crying babies.
I conclude, I am playing my own long-term game and have my own preferences. I know myNo, I’ve not claimed your goals/plans are wrong. I’ve just noted where your choices for
goals and have a good advisor. Your goals and plans are different. Yet not having the
complete picture you insist you have a better plan for me. LOL.
what you’ve planned for yourself could probably have been done materially better.
2014 was just one year of travel.
Your entire premise is based on an assumption that the TCJA will expire with no further action
by Congress to extend or modify. That is a house of cards. When it becomes clearer as to what
will happen I may take actions based on facts, not assumptions.
Silence from Tom.True, it is based on an assumption that TCJA will expire. Given how the Republicans
are ranting about the deficit, and it would provide Biden with a legislative “win”, do you
really think it’s likely?
Just for fun I ran a $350k Roth IRA conversion through the Schwab model. It showed no advantage to me.
https://www.schwab.com/ira/ira-calculators/roth-ira-conversion?src=SEM&s_kwcid=AL!5158!10!79302482218171!21312015311&ef_id=6f734ed0c9ee1d15ff1d2b977852d3db:G:s&keywordid=21312015311&msclkid=6f734ed0c9ee1d15ff1d2b977852d3db
Ibid.Looks like the data didn’t pass through.
In any event, $350K ignores the point I made of optimizing for the brackets: try keeping
your sum AGI under $364K to stay out of the 32% bracket.
For example, such as income $180K & Rothify $150K = $330K: at +1 year and 5.8%
“Moderate” (& skipping State), delta is just $2,588 less but it’s now after $35,785 paid
(~24%) been made forever tax-exempt, reducing your taxable RMDs by ~$17K/yr.
Typing up an illustration is what one does when the link alone doesn’t do it.
I have not planned this outcome all alone. Your alternative could reduce the funds
available to charitable organizations in our estate plan that will pay zero tax when
they cash out the IRA money. IRA only.
Except as was already said before (but you’re not listening), if the funds are dedicated
for charity, then simply don’t Rothify the funds you intend to donate. Ever.
From further below, it sounds like Tom is implying that his near term intent is to donate
100% of his IRA RMD to charity. Just how much (or little) that is hasn’t been recently shared
(if ever). Nevertheless,Tom will continue to include this balance in his net worth claims,
as well as unlikely to consider other options such as a CRT (Charitable Remainder Trust),
as some of these offer a big single-year tax write-off which can offset jumps in AGI when
exercising a Cap Gain which would otherwise increase next year’s Medicare Part B rates.
Before the end of the year the 401k will get rolled over to an IRA.
Without Rothifying anything, this is transparent from a taxable event standpoint,
as well as future taxes going forward from having the RMDs combined. The only
difference it makes is for QCDs, if the IRA RMD was less than the intended annual
charity donation amount…which itself has a QCD limit of no more than $100K/yr.
There’s other advantaged vehicles to do that, which typically work better when using
clustering strategies for taxation optimization.
In other words, a Red Herring statement from Tom since as described is has no tax implications.
This will somewhat simplify tax filing and make significantly more RMD funds eligible
for Qualified Charitable Distributions which are adjustments to taxable income thus
not taxed at all.
Merely because 401(k)’s aren’t eligible to do QCDs from.
Your claim of "materially better" is patently false. You are playing around with very
small differences in marginal tax rates.
The (22% vs 25%) and (24% vs 28%) expected taxation rate differences are a 3%-4%
improvement on the portion that one chooses to retain for one’s retirement income.
For your $350K hypothetical, that’s $10K-$14K (airline seat upgrades on two vacations).
You are ignoring the potential impact on money that would be materially taxed in the
current year and not at all in the future when it passes to qualified charitable
organizations absent those taxes paid currently.
False, because I’ve already said to *not* apply this to funds you intend to donate via QCD.
Apparently you don't plan to leave the majority of a multi-million dollar estate to charity.
No, that’s already set up. The difference is that I’m not donating 100% while still living,
for we want to be self-sufficient unto the end. Ironically, there’s also tax-advantaged
elements to this consideration as well to plan ahead for.
LOL. In 2022 I cashed out a $600k stock portfolio and invested in an income fund.
The capital gains pushed me into 2 brackets higher on 2024 Part B and Part D Medicare
premiums.
The Medicare Part B income brackets are spaced only ~$50K, so your gains were
no more than ~$150K…and could have been as little as ~$65K.
That hurt.
Two brackets is <$200/yr for Medicare part B, and sincd Medicare rates are based on
just the prior year’s income, it’s just 1 year = ~$2K total = a minor transient bruise.
Your annual income Your monthly premium in 2023
Couples
Equal to or below $194,000 $164.90
$194,001 – $246,000 $230.80
$246,001 – $306,000 $329.70
$306,001 – $366,000 $428.60
$366,001 – $749,999 $527.50
$750,000 and above $560.50
<https://www.medicareinteractive.org/get-answers/medicare-health-coverage-options/original-medicare-costs/part-b-costs-for-those-with-higher-incomes>
For the claimed "two bracket" shift, starting point has to be the MFJ <$194,000, due to claim
of having been in the 22% marginal tax bracket, which runs from $83,550 to $178,150. Thus:
<$194,000 $164.90
$246,001 – $306,000 $329.70
= ($329.70 - $164.90) * 12 months = $1977.60/yr
For how much gain caused this increase, using the 22% tax bracket claim again in two
ways: the max Capital Gain flex is bottom of 22% bracket to top of Medicare = ($306K-$84K)
= $222K max. But there's also a 'near the top of' bracket claim, so the $84K point doesn't apply.
Using the 3rd Quintile of the 22% bracket is $140,310, which means the maximum Capital Gain
is (306K - 140K) = $165,690
Not only does this match Tom's "the gains were over $150k.", this insight also allows moreA minor nit over-estimation here, as Medicare apparently calculates on AGI or MAGI, whereas
bracketing of his max possible AGI income, which would be: (306K - 150K) = $156K. Then
KISS add in the 2022 Std Deduction of $25.9K and max gross income estimate is just ~$180K
before the conversion.
Marginal Income Tax Brackets are based on Taxable Income (TI), which is lowered by deductions.
Ignoring the PITA of MAGI and factors such as large charitable contributions which would logically exceed
& replace the use of the Std Deduction (ie, "normal caveats apply"), the parameterized solution based on the
sum of Tommy's claims is that prior to the cashing-out and using just a $150K cap gain, the TI was in the range
of approximately $86K-$129K and thus, the AGI in the range of $112K - $155K. FYI, increasing the $150K Cap
Gain lowers each of the upper values; at $160K, TI drops from $129K to 119K and AGI drops from $155K to $145K
Roth would do the same. Did you consider that increased expense?
Of course I did .. which is why I’m Rothifying before we turn age 64, so as to have
at least a one year gap before Medicare kicks in. Sounds like you’re paying now for
not anticipating this years ago.
Essentially ALL of my IRA/401k investments are going to charity. You just assumed
I would not do that.
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