• Scanning something actual size.

    From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 15 14:04:59 2021
    On occasion, I've wished to copy a PCB. Using the trusty old Epson GT9500
    and DPingScan, I could scan it and drop it straight into ProCad+ and it
    was exact real size. Then do the artwork for a copy.

    But now, with an Epson XP 415, any scan has to be done on the dark side
    and transferred to ProCad+. And have the file changed to a Sprite too.
    Using DPingScan. Native is Tiff, BMP, or JPEG. and always has to be
    re-sized, and often impossible to get spot on.

    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    --
    *The colder the X-ray table, the more of your body is required on it *

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From News@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Tue Jun 15 15:32:33 2021
    In article <593cfa0e54dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    Have you checked the dpi of the scan? The dark side often defaults to
    72 dpi, whereas RISC OS assumes 90 dpi as default, (I think sprites
    can only be multiples of 45 dpi, i.e. 45, 90, 180 dpi).

    Look at the original dpi in DPScan before converting to a sprite -
    you may have to scale it by 90/72 before converting.

    --
    Chris Johnson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to News on Tue Jun 15 17:02:46 2021
    In article <593d021285chrisjohnson@spamcop.net>,
    News <chrisjohnson@spamcop.net> wrote:
    In article <593cfa0e54dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    Have you checked the dpi of the scan? The dark side often defaults to
    72 dpi, whereas RISC OS assumes 90 dpi as default, (I think sprites
    can only be multiples of 45 dpi, i.e. 45, 90, 180 dpi).

    Thanks. The only multiple of 45 I can find on the scanner is 720dpi.

    Look at the original dpi in DPScan before converting to a sprite -
    you may have to scale it by 90/72 before converting.

    Right. I'll try that. Although I'd like a rather higher resolution.

    --
    *Virtual reality is its own reward *

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From druck@21:1/5 to News on Tue Jun 15 17:28:33 2021
    On 15/06/2021 15:32, News wrote:
    In article <593cfa0e54dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    Have you checked the dpi of the scan? The dark side often defaults to
    72 dpi, whereas RISC OS assumes 90 dpi as default, (I think sprites
    can only be multiples of 45 dpi, i.e. 45, 90, 180 dpi).

    Those are the nominal dpi's of the screen on Windows and RISC OS. For a
    scan you should set the dpi of the image file to match what the scanner
    has been set to. e.g. 300

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From News@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Tue Jun 15 17:45:45 2021
    In article <593d0a551fdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Right. I'll try that. Although I'd like a rather higher resolution.

    OK Dave. I think if you are using sprite format you are limited in
    the available dpi.

    What are the allowable scan dpis on the scanner? My old Epson allowed
    180, 360, 720 dpi among others. I think you have to allow for the
    fact that the sprite format allows only a limited number of dpis and
    will default to 90dpi if not told otherwise.

    Investigate the following. If you scan at say 360 dpi, then scaling
    by two before converting to sprite will allow a sprite of 180 dpi at
    'real' size. I assume ProCad will deal with sprites that are not the
    default 90 dpi. Scanning at 720 dpi would need a scaling of four.

    --
    Chris Johnson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to druck on Wed Jun 16 00:11:06 2021
    In article <saakfh$fdd$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 15/06/2021 15:32, News wrote:
    In article <593cfa0e54dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    Have you checked the dpi of the scan? The dark side often defaults to
    72 dpi, whereas RISC OS assumes 90 dpi as default, (I think sprites
    can only be multiples of 45 dpi, i.e. 45, 90, 180 dpi).

    Those are the nominal dpi's of the screen on Windows and RISC OS. For a
    scan you should set the dpi of the image file to match what the scanner
    has been set to. e.g. 300

    To load into ProCad+, it has to be a Sprite. If I set DPingScan to the dpi
    the scanner is set to and then save that out as a Sprite, the size is
    wrong in ProCad.

    --
    *Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to News on Wed Jun 16 00:17:43 2021
    In article <593d0e449fchrisjohnson@spamcop.net>,
    News <chrisjohnson@spamcop.net> wrote:
    In article <593d0a551fdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Right. I'll try that. Although I'd like a rather higher resolution.

    OK Dave. I think if you are using sprite format you are limited in
    the available dpi.

    What are the allowable scan dpis on the scanner? My old Epson allowed
    180, 360, 720 dpi among others. I think you have to allow for the
    fact that the sprite format allows only a limited number of dpis and
    will default to 90dpi if not told otherwise.

    Investigate the following. If you scan at say 360 dpi, then scaling
    by two before converting to sprite will allow a sprite of 180 dpi at
    'real' size. I assume ProCad will deal with sprites that are not the
    default 90 dpi. Scanning at 720 dpi would need a scaling of four.

    A problem with ProCad if trying to match the size in that is the minimum
    change up or down is 0.1. Although I've not tried enlarging by 72 then
    reducing by 90 (or whatever) I'm not sure the memory would cope with that.

    --
    *A fool and his money are soon partying *

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Wed Jun 16 09:06:07 2021
    In article <593cfa0e54dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    On occasion, I've wished to copy a PCB. Using the trusty old Epson GT9500
    and DPingScan, I could scan it and drop it straight into ProCad+ and it
    was exact real size. Then do the artwork for a copy.

    But now, with an Epson XP 415, any scan has to be done on the dark side
    and transferred to ProCad+. And have the file changed to a Sprite too.
    Using DPingScan. Native is Tiff, BMP, or JPEG. and always has to be
    re-sized, and often impossible to get spot on.

    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    I scan to JPEG, load into !Openvector and trace. I then load into Draw+
    and make any ammendments I wish to make.

    --
    Stuart Winsor

    Tools With A Mission
    sending tools across the world
    http://www.twam.co.uk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to Stuart on Wed Jun 16 14:16:15 2021
    In article <593d62876dSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593cfa0e54dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    On occasion, I've wished to copy a PCB. Using the trusty old Epson GT9500 and DPingScan, I could scan it and drop it straight into ProCad+ and it
    was exact real size. Then do the artwork for a copy.

    But now, with an Epson XP 415, any scan has to be done on the dark side
    and transferred to ProCad+. And have the file changed to a Sprite too. Using DPingScan. Native is Tiff, BMP, or JPEG. and always has to be re-sized, and often impossible to get spot on.

    Any suggestions on how to make this easier?

    I scan to JPEG, load into !Openvector and trace. I then load into Draw+
    and make any ammendments I wish to make.

    Does Draw+ produce the Gerber files needed for auto production?

    --
    *How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From druck@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 16 16:31:10 2021
    On 16/06/2021 00:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
    In article <saakfh$fdd$1@dont-email.me>,
    druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    Those are the nominal dpi's of the screen on Windows and RISC OS. For a
    scan you should set the dpi of the image file to match what the scanner
    has been set to. e.g. 300

    To load into ProCad+, it has to be a Sprite. If I set DPingScan to the dpi the scanner is set to and then save that out as a Sprite, the size is
    wrong in ProCad.

    Then just scale the sprite by <screen dpi>/<scanner dpi> e.g. 90/300

    I don't know about ProCad, lots of apps have two boxes for scale which
    you can enter 90 and 300 into, other wise convert to either a percentage
    or a decimal e.g. 30% or 0.3

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Wed Jun 16 17:33:37 2021
    In article <593d7eec5fdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    I scan to JPEG, load into !Openvector and trace. I then load into Draw+
    and make any ammendments I wish to make.

    Does Draw+ produce the Gerber files needed for auto production?

    No but draw files can be loaded into ProCad+

    --
    Stuart Winsor

    Tools With A Mission
    sending tools across the world
    http://www.twam.co.uk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to Stuart on Wed Jun 16 18:24:35 2021
    In article <593d90fe0fSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593d7eec5fdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    I scan to JPEG, load into !Openvector and trace. I then load into Draw+ and make any ammendments I wish to make.

    Does Draw+ produce the Gerber files needed for auto production?

    No but draw files can be loaded into ProCad+

    They can, but I like Procad.

    --
    *Few women admit their age; fewer men act it.

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Thu Jun 17 20:23:14 2021
    In article <593d95a87edave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593d90fe0fSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593d7eec5fdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    I scan to JPEG, load into !Openvector and trace. I then load into Draw+ and make any ammendments I wish to make.

    Does Draw+ produce the Gerber files needed for auto production?

    No but draw files can be loaded into ProCad+

    They can, but I like Procad.

    I use it too, different software has different attributes, strong points
    and uses.

    I was simply suggesting an alternative route that might solve your issue.

    Personally, I still produce all my PCBs from masks I print out from Draw+

    --
    Stuart Winsor

    Tools With A Mission
    sending tools across the world
    http://www.twam.co.uk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to Stuart on Fri Jun 18 00:11:29 2021
    In article <593e245b89Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593d95a87edave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593d90fe0fSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593d7eec5fdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    I scan to JPEG, load into !Openvector and trace. I then load into Draw+
    and make any ammendments I wish to make.

    Does Draw+ produce the Gerber files needed for auto production?

    No but draw files can be loaded into ProCad+

    They can, but I like Procad.

    I use it too, different software has different attributes, strong points
    and uses.

    I was simply suggesting an alternative route that might solve your issue.

    Personally, I still produce all my PCBs from masks I print out from Draw+

    Any draw prog is OK for that. So the one you prefer best of all.
    But since it's now so cheap to get PCBs made from a Gerber file I've given
    up doing it at home.

    --
    *Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stuart@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Fri Jun 18 09:39:44 2021
    In article <593e39410adave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Personally, I still produce all my PCBs from masks I print out from
    Draw+

    Any draw prog is OK for that. So the one you prefer best of all. But
    since it's now so cheap to get PCBs made from a Gerber file I've given
    up doing it at home.

    To an extent you are correct but to me the advantages of Draw+ are:

    1) a 0.1" grid matrix visible on the screen and the ability to lock to a fraction of the grid. For example, when laying out IC pads I lock to the
    0.1 and when laying tracks I usually lock to grid/4, i.e. 0.025, though
    almost any fraction is possible. Internally, the programme records
    positions in O.S. units and I can, if necessary, swap the grid between
    inch and metric on the same drawing without anything moving.

    2) Layers so that I can have "copper side" tracks on one layer,
    "component side" tracks on another layer, components on a different layer
    and so on. I build up all PCBs as if looking down on the component layer
    then separate and reverse the "component side" track layer before printing.

    3) Libraries of component footprints which allow the instant placing of,
    for example, pads for ICs and I have built up an extensive library already.

    I know much, if not all, of this can be done with Procad but I have always found moving stuff around the screen to a new position with Procad to be
    far, far, more difficult.

    !Open Vector, which I mentioned, can also do much of the above but does
    not have quite the same facilities regarding the grid. On the other hand,
    it can load and manipulate JPEGs directly allowing easy tracing of
    magazine track layouts.

    I've never considered the idea of getting PCBs made though I can see many advantages in doing so. What would be the cost of a typical double-sided 100x220mm board?

    --
    Stuart Winsor

    Tools With A Mission
    sending tools across the world
    http://www.twam.co.uk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Theo@21:1/5 to dave@davenoise.co.uk on Fri Jun 18 14:59:34 2021
    "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593e6d4798Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    I've never considered the idea of getting PCBs made though I can see many advantages in doing so. What would be the cost of a typical double-sided 100x220mm board?

    Not had any made recently. But getting a double sided or layered board,
    ready drilled, with printed legends and solder resist coated is simply something I can't do at home.

    Google will find you plenty of prices. Obviously the price per unit comes down drastically with quantity.

    We put most of ours through jlcpcb.com, who are based in Shenzhen. Shipping
    is usually a few weeks from China, although we usually pay more for DHL shipping.

    100x220 is quite large, but for double sided they quote $12.80 for 5 pieces
    and $7.44 for shipping (8-20 business days). It's another $11.44 for DHL Express (4-6 business days). Roundtrip with DHL including manufacturing and shipping time is usually about 10 calendar days (ie order Sunday night of
    week 1, arrive by Friday of week 2, bearing in mind they're 8 hours ahead).

    Quality is good - not like some bargain-basement Chinese boards you might
    find. Their solder stencils are good too. They have 4 and 6 layer flows at
    a modest price bump should you need them.

    They do assembly, but we haven't used them for that (yet). They also have a components arm are called lcsc.com who are a bit like a Chinese Farnell, and they can bundle components in with your PCB order.

    Of course I'm getting old, so the fiddle of making my own from scratch not
    so appealing as once.

    At those prices it's not worth the hassle of making your own, unless you're
    in a great hurry.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Plowman (News)@21:1/5 to Stuart on Fri Jun 18 14:24:47 2021
    In article <593e6d4798Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <593e39410adave@davenoise.co.uk>,
    Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
    Personally, I still produce all my PCBs from masks I print out from
    Draw+

    Any draw prog is OK for that. So the one you prefer best of all. But
    since it's now so cheap to get PCBs made from a Gerber file I've given
    up doing it at home.

    To an extent you are correct but to me the advantages of Draw+ are:

    1) a 0.1" grid matrix visible on the screen and the ability to lock to a fraction of the grid. For example, when laying out IC pads I lock to the
    0.1 and when laying tracks I usually lock to grid/4, i.e. 0.025, though almost any fraction is possible. Internally, the programme records
    positions in O.S. units and I can, if necessary, swap the grid between
    inch and metric on the same drawing without anything moving.

    ProCad much the same. I find 20 devisions per inch the grid I use most. As
    I'm not making tiny stuff - just discrete components.

    2) Layers so that I can have "copper side" tracks on one layer,
    "component side" tracks on another layer, components on a different
    layer and so on. I build up all PCBs as if looking down on the component layer then separate and reverse the "component side" track layer before printing.

    Same here.

    3) Libraries of component footprints which allow the instant placing
    of, for example, pads for ICs and I have built up an extensive library already.

    Indeed.

    I know much, if not all, of this can be done with Procad but I have
    always found moving stuff around the screen to a new position with
    Procad to be far, far, more difficult.

    How, exactly? If transferring from another drawing, you can get the datum point? being a bit odd. But simply group it in the new drawing and give it
    a new datum point.

    !Open Vector, which I mentioned, can also do much of the above but does
    not have quite the same facilities regarding the grid. On the other hand,
    it can load and manipulate JPEGs directly allowing easy tracing of
    magazine track layouts.

    ProCad has the benefit of generating industry standard files (DXF) which
    makes it easy to share with the dark side. As well as Gerber.

    I've got Draw+ and DWXL hear both of which I've used in the past. Just why
    I now go straight to ProCad+, I'm not sure. As both of the others have
    some unique nice features too. The devil you know.

    I've never considered the idea of getting PCBs made though I can see many advantages in doing so. What would be the cost of a typical double-sided 100x220mm board?

    Not had any made recently. But getting a double sided or layered board,
    ready drilled, with printed legends and solder resist coated is simply something I can't do at home.

    Google will find you plenty of prices. Obviously the price per unit comes
    down drastically with quantity.

    Of course I'm getting old, so the fiddle of making my own from scratch not
    so appealing as once.

    --
    *You're never too old to learn something stupid.

    Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
    To e-mail, change noise into sound.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)