Okay, so the first part of this thread was a lot more popular than I expected. Was it nostalgia? The joy of learning about forgotten games?
Who knows, but let's do it again and see if lightning strikes twice.
This time, we're surveying classic games released to IBM PC
compatibles released during the ten-year period between 1993 and 2002,
which is seen by many as the golden age of PC gaming. It was /SO/ hard
to limit myself to just TWO games per year for this period! Games
which had a huge impact on the industry - either from sales or
originality or just because they predicted the direction the hobby was
moving - got higher priority, but I left SO many classics off this
list, it hurt. Feel free to tell me what an idiot I am for not
including <insert favorite game here>; I'll probably agree.
Scoring is the same as in the last thread. Remember, the "S-Tier" can
only be used the one time (which really should apply to all these
surveys, and not just once-per, but how am I gonna stop you if you
choose otherwise? ;-)
Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)C
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!
Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
when they were new.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1993 Doom
MystE
1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the TigerE
Warcraft: Orcs & HumansE
1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century CombatE
Command & ConquerD
1996 QuakeC
Tomb RaiderD
1997 Ultima OnlineE
FalloutD
1998 StarcraftD
Baldur's GateD
1999 Half-LifeC
Unreal TournamentD
2000 Diablo 2D
Deus ExD
2001 Grand Theft Auto 3D
Return to Castle WolfensteinDE
2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Gothic 2E
--------------------------
* Of course, there might be some bias since I'm picking the games and
games I love are more likely to be declared 'classics' and added to
the list than ones I didn't care for. ;-)
Are you going to do more console games in later ones?
On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 10:25:35 -0600, candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net>
wrote:
Are you going to do more console games in later ones?
Well, seeing as this is comp.sys.IBM.PC.GAMES.action, I wouldn't count
on it. ;-P
Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!
Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
when they were new.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1993 Doom
Myst
1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
Warcraft: Orcs & Humans
1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
Command & Conquer
1996 Quake
Tomb Raider
1997 Ultima Online
Fallout
1998 Starcraft
Baldur's Gate
1999 Half-Life
Unreal Tournament
2000 Diablo 2
Deus Ex
2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Gothic 2
Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
when they were new.
On Mon, 06 Nov 2023 11:15:19 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson ><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
Because its Doom! Not only was it a top-notch game that spawned a1993 Doom
Myst got the nod not because I personally loved it, but because - loveMyst
While the gameplay itself was rather unoriginal, WC3 was the first1994 Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger
Mostly picked because it was the first step to a certain onlineWarcraft: Orcs & Humans
Not so much because of its gameplay or the franchise, so much as1995 Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat
Even more so than Warcraft, Command & Conquer turned the RTS genreCommand & Conquer
Everything Doom was, except now in 3D! So many features we commonly1996 Quake
Not only a great game (although at this point saying that seems a bitTomb Raider
Although there were MMORPGs prior to UO, this was the first mega-hit1997 Ultima Online
Mostly added because of the continued success of the franchise, but itFallout
Because I don't want 51 million South Koreans screaming for my blood.1998 Starcraft
Oh, where to start? It revitalized D&D and helped turn that game fromBaldur's Gate
Another self-explanatory selection. From its silent protagonist, to1999 Half-Life
UT helped transform the multiplayer component of a game from a neatUnreal Tournament
Diablo might have been more original (and arguably more worthy of2000 Diablo 2
While not the first example in the FPS sandbox game, "Deus Ex" did itDeus Ex
For years, games had been struggling to break out of the constricted2001 Grand Theft Auto 3
Honestly, there's nothing genre-changing about RtCW; it's just anotherReturn to Castle Wolfenstein
MOHAA itself isn't that great, but it was the first significant2002 Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
Honestly, Gothic 2 itself didn't leave much of a mark on the industry;Gothic 2
I hope you do this again for the later years. I am curious to see how
many Ds I get as we move into the modern era :-P And maybe a few
E's!!
Okay, so the first part of this thread was a lot more popular than I expected. Was it nostalgia? The joy of learning about forgotten games?
Who knows, but let's do it again and see if lightning strikes twice.
This time, we're surveying classic games released to IBM PC
compatibles released during the ten-year period between 1993 and 2002,
which is seen by many as the golden age of PC gaming. It was /SO/ hard
to limit myself to just TWO games per year for this period! Games
which had a huge impact on the industry - either from sales or
originality or just because they predicted the direction the hobby was moving - got higher priority, but I left SO many classics off this
list, it hurt. Feel free to tell me what an idiot I am for not
including <insert favorite game here>; I'll probably agree.
Scoring is the same as in the last thread. Remember, the "S-Tier" can
only be used the one time (which really should apply to all these
surveys, and not just once-per, but how am I gonna stop you if you
choose otherwise? ;-)
Last time we saw a lot of "E" grades, which is unsurprising given how
old some of those titles were. I expect we'll see higher overall
scores this time. But who knows; maybe most of you skipped these games
when they were new.
So... how did you fare? How many of these classics have you /actually/ played?
Deus Ex is absolutely my favorite game, out of these at least, maybe all time. Too bad the franchise seems to have fizzled out. It mostly just
went downhill after the original. Human Revolution was still decent but
not that good. Of course, how many global conspiracies can you have?
That sort of storytelling doesn't work that well after a few iterations.
Before moving on to the inevitable part three of this series, I
thought I'd offer an 'expansion pack' for part two. In my previous
post, I selected games which I felt had the largest impact on PC
gaming; I chose titles with a legacy. Titles like "Doom" or "Half
Life" which had a significant pedigree. But there were a lot of
awesome games which - while still well regarded - didn't have quite
the same impact. So here are some of the less-well-remembered classics
of that era: how many have you played?
Before moving on to the inevitable part three of this series, I
thought I'd offer an 'expansion pack' for part two. In my previous
post, I selected games which I felt had the largest impact on PC
gaming; I chose titles with a legacy. Titles like "Doom" or "Half
Life" which had a significant pedigree. But there were a lot of
awesome games which - while still well regarded - didn't have quite
the same impact. So here are some of the less-well-remembered classics
of that era: how many have you played?
--------------------------------
Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!
--------------------------------
1993 Syndicate
SimCity 2000
1994 One Must Fall 2097
X-COM: UFO Defense
1995 Phantasmagoria
Heroes of Might & Magic
1996 Duke Nukem 3D
Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword)
1997 Dungeon Keeper
Grand Theft Auto
1998 Quake II
Rainbow Six
1999 Independence War
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age
American McGee's Alice
2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter
Clive Baker's Undying
2002 Arx Fatalis
Battlefield 1942
--------------------------------
Scoring: S - This is my favorite game! (only can be applied once)
A - I've completed the game multiple times
B - I've played it and completed it once
C - I've played it but never finished it
D - I know of it (or own it) but have never played it
E - I never even heard of this game!
--------------------------------
1993 Syndicate
SimCity 2000
1994 One Must Fall 2097
X-COM: UFO Defense
1995 Phantasmagoria
Heroes of Might & Magic
1996 Duke Nukem 3D
Circle of Blood (a.k.a. Broken Sword)
1997 Dungeon Keeper
Grand Theft Auto
1998 Quake II
Rainbow Six
1999 Independence War
Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri
2000 Thief 2: The Metal Age
American McGee's Alice
2001 Serious Sam: The First Encounter
Clive Baker's Undying
2002 Arx Fatalis
Battlefield 1942
Wow, a whole bunch of Ds for me and even an E. What the hell is
Independence War?
Alternates
1993 - Master of Orion
1997 - Dungeon Keeper
1998 - Fallout 2
1999 - Planscape Torment
2000 - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
2001 - Max Payne
2002 - Neverwinter Nights
1999 - Planscape Torment - C (eh, sort of a category thing vs. FPS, not
my favorite, but often touted as the best RPG never to have been
surpassed until the last couple years with Disco Elysium and Baldur's
Gate 3)
* Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
place at the table too 😉 But feel free to offer up your own list of
games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
* Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
place at the table too ? But feel free to offer up your own list of
games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.
CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
store not realising it was the same game.
When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it.
At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.
The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
though I spent many an hour playing it.
On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
* Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
place at the table too 😉 But feel free to offer up your own list of
games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.
CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
store not realising it was the same game.
When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it.
At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.
The new thing it did was given you a 3d map where you could command you
units but with two major twists. If you wanted to get more detail on
what was actually happening you had to use a telescope. The second, no
just clicking on a unit and telling it what to do - you write out an
order, which can get lost, and that gets sent to a commander each with
the only personalities. That affects how they act including not carrying
out orders or acting on their own initiative.
As a bonus a laminated map and dry eraser was included that you used to literally draw you units, and what their orders where, on.
The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
though I spent many an hour playing it.
On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 10:24:17 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
On 14/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
* Of course, since I'm the one nominating these 'classics', the games
which I played a lot are more likely to make the cut than those that I
never owned. You'll notice a distinct lack of sports titles, for
instance, even though games like "Sensible Soccer" really deserve a
place at the table too ? But feel free to offer up your own list of
games from that era if you feel mine is too self-serving.
Two I fondly remember in my classics list are Combat Mission: Beyond
Overlord and Close Combat II: A Bridge To Far. The reason for this was
in a genre that felt almost completely focused on creating digital
versions of boardgames they instead did wargames that you can't do at
the tabletop and used the advantages of a PC.
CM I almost missed playing as I first tried it when the demo was
included on a magazine CD. I did what I always did with them which is if
I liked the sound of it I'd give it a go. I was totally baffled as to
what was going on so didn't play it for more than thirty mins or so.
Maybe several months later I picked it when browsing at our local game
store not realising it was the same game.
When I realised it was I thought well I've paid for this so I need to
give it at least a try and understand how to play it. Absolutely loved it. >>
At this point I have to give a special mention to Borodino on the Atari
ST (heh, wrong era and platform but never mind). This again took a
wargame and showed what a computer can do. So, as the name it implies,
it's the Battle of Borodino in 1812 where you take the role of Napoleon.
The problem was I'm not sure how much fun it actually was a game even
though I spent many an hour playing it.
"Borodino" came to PC too (in 1989), as well as several other similar
titles from Turcan Research Systems (the developer): "Armada",
"Austerlitz" and "Dreadnaught". All of them used variations of the
same engine. Although amazingly primitive to modern eyes, it's 3D
engine is impressive considering it was designed to run on 80286 CPUs.
But I fall into the same camp as you: impressed by the tech but not
really able to endure the game long enough to actually PLAY it and
judge its mechanics. It's a game for the groggiest of wargaming
grognards.
Satisfaction at a plan well executed counts as "fun". So does pulling a failed plan out of the compost. 🙂
Oh I liked it and spent many hours playing it but I'm not sure it was
fun. A similar experience is Airborne Assault: Conquest of the Aegean. I >spent many hours playing it but again not sure I'd say it's fun.
Only one game that I've *seriously* played on here, the old X-COM. I
even kept a DOS-compatible PC around so I could replay on occasion.
On 06/11/2023 23:13, Justisaur wrote:
1999 - Planscape Torment - C (eh, sort of a category thing vs. FPS, notPS:T was certainly my top RPG until Disco Elysium mainly because it not
my favorite, but often touted as the best RPG never to have been
surpassed until the last couple years with Disco Elysium and Baldur's
Gate 3)
only went away from the typical high fantasy setting of orcs and dwarfs
it also focused more on the story than the combat. The other part was
that for once I felt more of a connection with the companion PC's and I didn't just view them more like an item in my inventory.
I think the two biggest let downs where the combat felt half baked (oh
yet another group of hive dwellers who are intent on attacking me the
same as when I last passed through this area) and the final 10% or so
just felt rushed and relied more on combat than the rest of the game.
On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 2:06:15 AM UTC-8, JAB wrote:
On 06/11/2023 23:13, Justisaur wrote:
1999 - Planscape Torment - C (eh, sort of a category thing vs. FPS, notPS:T was certainly my top RPG until Disco Elysium mainly because it not
my favorite, but often touted as the best RPG never to have been
surpassed until the last couple years with Disco Elysium and Baldur's
Gate 3)
only went away from the typical high fantasy setting of orcs and dwarfs
it also focused more on the story than the combat. The other part was
that for once I felt more of a connection with the companion PC's and I
didn't just view them more like an item in my inventory.
I think the two biggest let downs where the combat felt half baked (oh
yet another group of hive dwellers who are intent on attacking me the
same as when I last passed through this area) and the final 10% or so
just felt rushed and relied more on combat than the rest of the game.
The story just felt like a big info dump to me, and not as interesting as
a book would've been. I could've tolerated that if the the combat was interesting and a bit more balanced with the info, but it goes down as
one of the worst rpg combat systems (perhaps BG1 being worse.)
The companions were great though, and the only reason I played
as far as I did and tried several times to complete the game (same
with BG1)
On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 19:20:41 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
Oh I liked it and spent many hours playing it but I'm not sure it was
fun. A similar experience is Airborne Assault: Conquest of the Aegean. I
spent many hours playing it but again not sure I'd say it's fun.
I'm sure its fun to some. I'm just not one of them.
Hardcore wargames used to be bread-n-butter of PC gaming. Before "Pool
of Radiance" launched them into the stratosphere as a CRPG developer,
SSI made its name publishing wargames. I think everyone I knew on PC
had a copy of "Harpoon" on their PC in the early days... not so much
because they were huge fans but because it was such a rich sim (comparatively) that it was a great tech demo for your PC. Wargames
were ideal for the PC platform. The action was slow but required a lot
of RAM and CPU to calculate all the variables; perfect for a platform
that was graphically inferior to its competitors but superior in terms
of computational power.
But once the PC started catching up to other platforms with regards to
sound and visuals and alternative styles of gameplay started
appearing, Wargames' popularity took a significant dip. The RTS genre
all but killed it, and now it remains a niche industry appealing to
only a tiny few.
Which is a shame, because there's something to be said for the deeper simulation of those high-level wargames. I admit, I'm one of the many
who largely abandoned the genre, but even I like to dip my toes back
in every now again (usually not with the grognard-level games that
Matrix puts out, but I still fire up something like "Panzer General"
every now and again. ;-)
Side note: "Airborne Assault: Conquest of the Aegean" is one of those
rare games I'd not heard of. Then I realized its just an expansion to "Airborne Assault: Red Devils Over Arnhem" and all became clear. But
for a moment I experienced a moment of existential terror at the idea
that a game had come out that I hadn't knowledge of. ;-)
Even if its not very representative of the gameplay, X-Com's (fairly primitive) intro sets the tone for the game better than almost any
other intro I've seen. The tinny FM-synthesized music makes excellent
use of the SoundBlaster's OPL3 chip too.
(The only thing I enjoyed more than the "X-Com: UFO Defense" intro
were the X-Com fan fics that used to be posted in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. ;-)
On 16/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 19:20:41 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
Side note: "Airborne Assault: Conquest of the Aegean" is one of those
rare games I'd not heard of. Then I realized its just an expansion to
"Airborne Assault: Red Devils Over Arnhem" and all became clear. But
for a moment I experienced a moment of existential terror at the idea
that a game had come out that I hadn't knowledge of. ;-)
It was based on the same engine with quite a few improvements but was a >sequel. It's now morphed into Command Ops (core game + expansions)
although I'm not sure whether the developers are active any more in the >commercial space as they did mention several years ago the problem of,
well making money, as the development costs didn't match the sales at a >reasonable price point.
Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> writes:
Even if its not very representative of the gameplay, X-Com's (fairly
primitive) intro sets the tone for the game better than almost any
other intro I've seen. The tinny FM-synthesized music makes excellent
use of the SoundBlaster's OPL3 chip too.
I'm not sure if I've actually seen it before. Floppy version had just a
few still images I think. Didn't ring a bell as I watched it from
Youtube just now. Still, like you said, it does set the tone very well.
(The only thing I enjoyed more than the "X-Com: UFO Defense" intro
were the X-Com fan fics that used to be posted in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. ;-)
Yes, I especially remember one that was great. Something about starting
out in a place called Little Rock and dividing his troops to a "near
squad" and a "far squad".
His writing wasn't so great always but he absolutely nailed the big
moments in the game. The first terror mission, the first base defense,
the time when you find out some of your troops are vulnerable to PSI and
have to get rid of some of them. Somehow he touched the panicky feelings
I and probably many people who had played the game had in these moments
and made a decent story out of that.
I'm not sure if I've actually seen it before. Floppy version had just a
few still images I think. Didn't ring a bell as I watched it from
Youtube just now. Still, like you said, it does set the tone very well.
So... how did you fare? How many of these classics have you /actually/ >played?
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 09:57:57 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
On 16/11/2023 15:07, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Wed, 15 Nov 2023 19:20:41 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
Side note: "Airborne Assault: Conquest of the Aegean" is one of those
rare games I'd not heard of. Then I realized its just an expansion to
"Airborne Assault: Red Devils Over Arnhem" and all became clear. But
for a moment I experienced a moment of existential terror at the idea
that a game had come out that I hadn't knowledge of. ;-)
It was based on the same engine with quite a few improvements but was a
sequel. It's now morphed into Command Ops (core game + expansions)
although I'm not sure whether the developers are active any more in the
commercial space as they did mention several years ago the problem of,
well making money, as the development costs didn't match the sales at a
reasonable price point.
AFAIK, Matrix Games remains an active business, at least in the sense
that they still sell their games (from what I recall, they also are
involved in making military sims for militaries too, so that probably
brings in some nice cash as well). But - according to MobyGames -
their last commercially released title was in 2019, so maybe they have downscaled their entertainment division.
Like I said, grognard games - once a huge part of PC gaming - have now
become incredibly niche. I'm not really surprised that Matrix is struggling... but I am sort of saddened.
Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
I'm not sure if I've actually seen it before. Floppy version had just a
few still images I think. Didn't ring a bell as I watched it from
Youtube just now. Still, like you said, it does set the tone very well.
My floppy version had the animated intro. I'm guessing you used the
"Small Game Installation" option that saved about 2MB of disk space,
probably by not including the intro.
On 11/17/23 11:56, Ross Ridge wrote:
Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote:
I'm not sure if I've actually seen it before. Floppy version had just a
few still images I think. Didn't ring a bell as I watched it from
Youtube just now. Still, like you said, it does set the tone very well.
My floppy version had the animated intro. I'm guessing you used the
"Small Game Installation" option that saved about 2MB of disk space,
probably by not including the intro.
It's too bad they don't have options like that anymore, would be nice
for some of these new 750GB+ games.
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