• Capcom on PC game mods

    From Spalls Hurgenson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 2 10:41:41 2023
    There's a lot to be said against PC gaming. It's often more expensive, sometimes requiring more technical acumen, more space, more power.
    With a console, you just plug in the device, slap in a disk, and off
    you go. [1]. PCs need you to futz around with an operating system,
    worry about hardware compatibilities, etc.

    But PC gaming does have one huge strength: the huge and relatively
    easy accessibility of mods. From new skins for your on-screen avatar,
    to player-made bug-fixes, to entirely new games made from the base
    engine, the modding scene is one of the triumphs of PC gaming and is
    often held up as the reason to pick the platform over its rivals.

    It's also something Capcom hates.

    In a recent video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT5bwwvDv00] [2]
    the company detailed why it hates PC game mods, arguing that mods are equivalent to 'cheating', lead to higher support costs, and
    reputational damage, and that Capcom will continue to try to crack
    down on them in the same way it does with its anti-cheat and
    anti-piracy measures.

    Which, look... if you think that sounds rather brain dead,
    anti-consumer, and a complete misunderstanding of the PC market, I'm
    not going to disagree with you. Frankly, if Capcom does choose to go
    down this course, I'm happy enough writing off their games entirely.
    They've never really made any games I've /HAD/ to play, and if they
    suddenly disappear from the PC market, I'm not going to be that upset.

    But I do get where Capcom is coming from (I don't agree with it, but
    that's not the point). Because while the obvious reasoning behind this
    is economic - a big chunk of Capcom revenue is made selling players
    skins and expansions to their existing games, and free user-made mods cannibalize these sales - I think it's more than that.

    Capcom is a Japanese, console gaming company, and there are a lot of
    societal differences from Western PC gaming. Capcom started as a
    developer of arcade games, an industry where most 'mods' were pirated
    copies of their ROMS and hardware. PC games in Japan were (are)
    long-seen as the alternative for people interested in hentai and other pornographic games; it was the SLEAZY platform. Japanese culture is
    also more constrained and respectful of an authority's singular
    vision; thus, an artist's intent for his work was often seen as the
    only allowable interpretation. Modding a game to add new characters or
    visuals beyond what the developer created? It's almost a heresy!

    So, I get it; to a Japanese audience - and to Capcom's developers (and
    that's whom the video was aimed - Capcom's assertion about PC gamers
    modding their games makes a certain logical sense, if you accept their worldview.

    Of course, the problem is, Capcom also wants to sell their games on
    the PC market and to western audiences. And if they think their ultra-restrictive attitudes will fly there, well... like I said,
    they're free to try, but at best people will just ignore their demands
    and make the mods anyway. At worst, Capcom games will disappear from
    the PC market. It's a stupid move, but if that's what they want? Knock
    yourself out, Capcom. With thousands of other games available, you
    won't really be missed.



    --------------------------

    [1] Well, less so these days. Too many console games require
    installation and day-one patches these days. But the plug-n-play
    method is the ideal, and even when consoles don't achieve that, it
    still handles all the non-ideal nonsense far more automatically and transparently than do PC games

    [2] Nominally, the video is an open conference about developing
    in-house anti-piracy methods and practices, but the speaker lumps
    modmakers into the same group as cheat-makers and pirates.
    The anti-mod spiel begins around the 14 minute mark. After the 18
    minute mark, it goes into general ideas into HOW to prevent
    piracy/mods/cheats, so unless you're interested you can stop there
    (they aren't really saying anything new there, though)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From H1M3M@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Thu Nov 2 16:48:30 2023
    Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    In a recent video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT5bwwvDv00] [2]
    the company detailed why it hates PC game mods, arguing that mods are equivalent to 'cheating', lead to higher support costs, and
    reputational damage, and that Capcom will continue to try to crack
    down on them in the same way it does with its anti-cheat and
    anti-piracy measures.


    Warning: I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and defend Capcom,
    although only on Anti-Modding

    "Reputational Damage":
    I'm seeing where this may come from, because this just reminded me of
    another japanese fighting game company that literally had a warning
    screen before the game started indicating that modding was banned and
    would be prosecuted.

    That would have been Tecmo, nowadays Koei-Tecmo, and the reason was the
    Dead or Alive fully naked mods, which got even worse when a piece of
    garbage called "Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball happened". This
    has been affecting Street Fighter V and VI too. Lire restoring the
    original Juri costume that was a bit too revealing, or the chun li going commando mods. After what Rockstar got into with the Hot Coffee mod,
    it's expected.


    "Modding and cheating": Capcom is extremely focused on online games like monster hunter, and Street Fighter has embraced Esports. There's a
    slippery slope between modding a new character or new music, and
    removing the protections against using a Hitbox controller. Hacked data
    making it to the servers becomes a problem for other players. You just
    have to see Pokémon players that have received edited monsters.


    My reason for defending Capcom is that they will remove Denuvo from
    their PC games once the sales goal has been met, something that can't be
    said about Ubi Soft. It's something that balances the shittiness.



    That would be the end of my defense. Now I'm going to bring out the
    pitchfork and proceed to stab Capcom:

    - Day one DLC and on-disc DLC. From the video, they are not worried
    about game piracy, but DLC piracy (Denuvo has solved the problem) The
    reason they are so worried about this is that they gotten into deep shit
    with bad practices regarding DLC. First with Resident Evil 5 and locked
    content inside the disc. This got worse with Street Fighter VS Tekken,
    that had a ton of fighters locked and hidden because they were on hold
    until the PSP version was released. Rather than releasing DLC, Capcom intentionally removes content from the game that has been there since
    the first day. "You get what you fudging deserve".

    - Cancelling Megaman Legends 3. I still want payback for this.

    - Abandoning every other IP their own to focus purely on Resident Evil,
    Monster Hunter and Street Fighter.

    Capcom is a Japanese, console gaming company, and there are a lot of
    societal differences from Western PC gaming. Capcom started as a
    developer of arcade games, an industry where most 'mods' were
    pirated copies of their ROMS and hardware. PC games in Japan were
    (are) long-seen as the alternative for people interested in hentai
    and other pornographic games; it was the SLEAZY platform. Japanese
    culture is also more constrained and respectful of an authority's
    singular vision; thus, an artist's intent for his work was often seen
    as the only allowable interpretation. Modding a game to add new
    characters or visuals beyond what the developer created? It's almost
    a heresy!

    Have you been watching the anime 16 Bit Sensation: Another Layer? On the episode that is set on 1992, one of the protagonists is pretty annoyed
    about how erotic games have overtaken the PC98 market and is not happy
    about having to code them for a living. It is sorta implied that he was
    playing rpgs on in, and at that time Ultima and Wizardry were big in Japan.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Werner P.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 2 17:20:25 2023
    Japanese companies at its best...

    There are so many cultural differences in approach to technology
    it is amazing that we can find common ground in so many areas.

    But I love japanese culture, we even had a japanese guest kid recently
    in our house, I learned a ton upfront to accommodate the kid as well as possible, but you have to see it from their fixed POV which is quite
    rigid, highest principle in japan is the community and that you behave
    within its rules, modding probably from their pov is breaking out of
    this common ground on how to deal with their products.

    That also explains a ton of Sonys weird behavior I guess and why
    Japanese companies after initial success lose their ground after 1-2
    decades at the top, they have problems to adapt to changes which happen
    outside of japan due to their lack of adaptability and their rigid view
    on how everything has to work.

    They will come around, but it will take some time, PC gaming is new
    territory for them, and it is amazing how long it took them to recognize
    it as revenue possibility, but in the end as usual they came around!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spalls Hurgenson@21:1/5 to wipnoah@gmail.com on Thu Nov 2 12:28:31 2023
    On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 16:48:30 +0100, H1M3M <wipnoah@gmail.com> wrote:

    Spalls Hurgenson wrote:


    Warning: I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and defend Capcom,
    although only on Anti-Modding

    I'm fine with devil-advocating. To some degree I did so myself, since
    I know a lot of people on the Internet are going to jump on this story
    and view it as an attack upon themselves, and I wanted to offer a
    slightly more nuanced take. I don't agree with their stance but I can
    to some degree understand where it is coming from. But regardless if
    it rooted in reason or note, I think it's a STUPID stance, because if
    they really intend to follow through on it, it's going to kill the
    company's PC sales.

    (but see below why I don't think the video is actually Capcom's
    official stand on the issue)

    "Reputational Damage":
    I'm seeing where this may come from, because this just reminded me of
    another japanese fighting game company that literally had a warning
    screen before the game started indicating that modding was banned and
    would be prosecuted.

    That would have been Tecmo, nowadays Koei-Tecmo, and the reason was the
    Dead or Alive fully naked mods, which got even worse when a piece of
    garbage called "Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball happened". This
    has been affecting Street Fighter V and VI too. Lire restoring the
    original Juri costume that was a bit too revealing, or the chun li going >commando mods. After what Rockstar got into with the Hot Coffee mod,
    it's expected.

    Like I said, to some degree I get Capcom's argument. The reputational
    damage thing, though, is hard to swallow given how sophomoric Capcom's
    official content often is. They're quite willing to sell blood and
    boobs when it profits them. And few companies have ever gotten much
    bad press because of third-party mods, since they can easily point out
    that they are not the creators for these mods and have no control over
    them.

    While there have always been a tiny percent of people who have
    screeched bloody murder over nude-mods and the like, many of them
    aren't actual consumers of the products, but just the usual
    sex-obsessed busy-bodies. Mods in general have been well-received by
    the games' actual /paying/ audience

    (Incidentally, Rockstar got in trouble with HotCoffee not so much
    because of the mod, but because the content itself was already in the
    game. The mod merely unlocked it; the models and code were on the
    discs provided by Rockstar themselves. Had "Hot Coffee merely been a third-party 'let's add a sex mini-game!' mod, it wouldn't have blown
    up in their faces anywhere nearly as big as it did.)


    "Modding and cheating": Capcom is extremely focused on online games like >monster hunter, and Street Fighter has embraced Esports. There's a
    slippery slope between modding a new character or new music, and
    removing the protections against using a Hitbox controller. Hacked data >making it to the servers becomes a problem for other players. You just
    have to see Pokémon players that have received edited monsters.

    And had the video limited itself to just cheats/piracy, it might not
    even have been noticed. But it equivocates general modding to
    cheating. (example: slide 19, at ~the 14minute mark: "All mods are
    defined as cheats, except when they are officially supported"). It
    cites the aforementioned 'reputational damage', increased support
    costs, and protecting future profits. It is also very focused on RE
    Engine games, now largely used with the single-player Resident Evil
    games (and one of the biggest 'support' issues repeatedly mentioned is
    'corrupt save files'). I'm not saying that it isn't an issue, but the
    video doesn't come across very concerned about mods being used to
    advantage certain players over others in esports.




    But watching the video again, though, it comes across much more as an
    executive defending his position than anything else, so I'm not sure
    how much his statements reflect Capcom's official position. The
    speaker's job is the newly created office of "security engineer", in
    charge of a department where anti-piracy and anti-cheat measures are centralized rather than left for individual development teams to
    ad-hoc.

    This new department allows for the build-up of institutional knowledge
    rather than requiring each team to recreate the wheel each time, and
    it works well with Capcom's creation of its own in-house RE Engine
    which will, apparently, form the basis for most (all?) of its future
    games. It's arguably a good move by Capcom, but a good chunk of the
    video is the speaker promoting his - and his departments - importance
    and why all the other teams should come to him for help.

    The anti-mod screed takes up four minutes of a 55 minute video. It
    seems to be a lot of "these things utilize similar tricks to
    cheats/cracks" and "they could also cost Capcom money so must be
    stopped!" that, combined with "I'm your one-stop solution to
    preventing gaming hacking!" makes me wonder how much this video
    represents Capcom's actual stance on mods.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From H1M3M@21:1/5 to Werner P. on Thu Nov 2 18:43:17 2023
    Werner P. wrote:
    Japanese companies at its best...


    But I love japanese culture, we even had a japanese guest kid
    recently in our house, I learned a ton upfront to accommodate the kid
    as well as possible, but you have to see it from their fixed POV
    which is quite rigid, highest principle in japan is the community and
    that you behave within its rules, modding probably from their pov is
    breaking out of this common ground on how to deal with their
    products.



    Japanese companies have traditionally been draconian when it comes to approaching IP protection, from modding to the creation of derivative
    contents. It's one of those things that is becoming a massive culture
    clash in the west, and won't change easily. At least Capcom seems
    focused on just making things harder for modders, rather than making
    your entire life a livinghell like Nintendo.

    Still, I will take Capcom being a dick any day over having to suffer
    Nintendo or... Pachinkonami.

    https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/01/game-modding-illegal-in-japan-punishable-by-prison-and-fines/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 2 13:37:08 2023
    On 11/2/23 12:43, H1M3M wrote:
    Werner P. wrote:
    Japanese companies at its best...


    But I love japanese culture, we even had a japanese guest kid
    recently in our house, I learned a ton upfront to accommodate the kid
    as well as possible, but you have to see it from their fixed POV
    which is quite rigid, highest principle in japan is the community and
    that you behave within its rules, modding probably from their pov is
    breaking out of this common ground on how to deal with their
    products.



    Japanese companies have traditionally been draconian when it comes to approaching IP protection, from modding to the creation of derivative contents. It's one of those things that is becoming a massive culture
    clash in the west, and won't change easily. At least Capcom seems
    focused on just making things harder for modders, rather than making
    your entire life a livinghell like Nintendo.

    Still, I will take Capcom being a dick any day over having to suffer
    Nintendo or... Pachinkonami.

    https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/01/game-modding-illegal-in-japan-punishable-by-prison-and-fines/

    It always annoys me how much new games are locked down.
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Werner P.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 2 19:50:11 2023
    Am 02.11.23 um 18:43 schrieb H1M3M:

    Still, I will take Capcom being a dick any day over having to suffer
    Nintendo or... Pachinkonami.

    https://www.kotaku.com.au/2019/01/game-modding-illegal-in-japan-punishable-by-prison-and-fines/
    Nintendo is nintendo, take them or leave them, Konami is really evil,
    but do they even exist anymore in gaming?

    Capcom is somewhat the middle ground, they always had really good games
    and never were in the position to pull really bad stunts, but their POV
    simply is basically a misunderstanding between japanese culture and
    western one. Usually westerners are quicker to understand japanaese
    mentality than vice versa!

    Either way their view on modding wont change that quickly thats for sure!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From H1MEM@21:1/5 to Werner P. on Thu Nov 2 20:24:57 2023
    Werner P. wrote:

    Nintendo is nintendo, take them or leave them, Konami is really evil,
    but do they even exist anymore in gaming?

    Konami seems to be back at re-releasing a few games again, but it sounds
    more like their gambling business is not going that well after a
    pandemic and a global financial crisis and they need to diversify.

    Them holding the entire Hudson Soft catalogue hostage really pisses me
    off. Other than a sexualized Bomberman arcade game, nothing has come out
    of those IPs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Spalls Hurgenson@21:1/5 to wipnoah@gmail.com on Fri Nov 3 12:22:25 2023
    On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:24:57 +0100, H1MEM <wipnoah@gmail.com> wrote:

    Werner P. wrote:

    Nintendo is nintendo, take them or leave them, Konami is really evil,
    but do they even exist anymore in gaming?

    Konami seems to be back at re-releasing a few games again, but it sounds
    more like their gambling business is not going that well after a
    pandemic and a global financial crisis and they need to diversify.


    Their re-release strategy doesn't seem to be going that well for them
    though. The "Metal Gear Solid" pack that just came out bombed /hard/,
    thanks to the extremely lackluster effort the company put into it
    (many pointing out that earlier releases of the games had more
    features/better performance). Their "Silent Hill Revival" thing -
    which apparently has a battlepass for cutscenes? - isnt' faring much
    better.

    Konami is coasting on its past success, but that gravy train seems to
    be coming to an end for them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dimensional Traveler@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Fri Nov 3 10:27:26 2023
    On 11/3/2023 9:22 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
    On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 20:24:57 +0100, H1MEM <wipnoah@gmail.com> wrote:

    Werner P. wrote:

    Nintendo is nintendo, take them or leave them, Konami is really evil,
    but do they even exist anymore in gaming?

    Konami seems to be back at re-releasing a few games again, but it sounds
    more like their gambling business is not going that well after a
    pandemic and a global financial crisis and they need to diversify.


    Their re-release strategy doesn't seem to be going that well for them
    though. The "Metal Gear Solid" pack that just came out bombed /hard/,
    thanks to the extremely lackluster effort the company put into it
    (many pointing out that earlier releases of the games had more features/better performance). Their "Silent Hill Revival" thing -
    which apparently has a battlepass for cutscenes? - isnt' faring much
    better.

    Konami is coasting on its past success, but that gravy train seems to
    be coming to an end for them.

    My heart bleeds for them. Let me find a piece of lint to bandage it with.

    --
    I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
    dirty old man.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From H1MEM@21:1/5 to Spalls Hurgenson on Fri Nov 3 19:24:04 2023
    Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

    Their "Silent Hill Revival" thing - which apparently has a
    battlepass for cutscenes? - isnt' faring much better.


    More like Bloober Team's Silent Hill. Just hearing Bloober was enough to
    put half the fandom into panic mode, and not exactly because the game
    was scary.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Werner P.@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 5 17:42:13 2023
    Am 03.11.23 um 17:22 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
    Konami is coasting on its past success, but that gravy train seems to
    be coming to an end for them.
    Well, they just have to release Metal Gear Solid, big Tits...

    Shit I think I just gave them idea they will pick up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Werner P.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 4 08:33:55 2024
    Am 19.01.24 um 19:27 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
    The company was founded in 1979 by Kenzo Tsujimoto. He remains the CEO
    to this day. He started business in an era when hackers would
    literally take out the boards from arcade machines, apply a new ROM,
    and then resell it as a completely new machine. There was reason for
    Capcom's paranoia and hatred of modding. Is it any wonder the company
    is still obsessed with the same ideals it had 40 years ago?

    Thats the problem of most japanese corporations nowadays, they are run
    by a bunch of 70+ guys never to retire and who basically do not
    understand that times have changed. Thats one of the major reasons why
    Japan could not keep up its dominance it had in the 80s, that and that
    Japanese themselves have a tendency not to look outside of their borders
    for historical reasons!
    Capcoms stance on modding is just a symptom of those two problems
    japanese companys have generally.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)