I'm continuing my journeys through Night City...

"Cyberpunk 2077" isn't a bad game. It just isn't great. I play it; I
generally enjoy it, but it has its flaws. Some flaws are bigger than
others. None of them really ruin the game. But I can't help but think,
"What if they weren't there. What could this game have been?"


---------------

Here's some of the things that annoy me:


- I've mentioned it before, but for all the obvious work put into the gameworld, the city it portrays lacks distinctiveness, not only from
other open-world cities, but from itself. There's variety to the city,
of course; I can see the difference between the suburban sprawl of the
Arroyo, the arid Wastelands, the overbuilt City Center. But too much
of the city looks identical to every other part, and even sixty hours
into the game, I've no hope of navigating the city without my automap.
It doesn't help that the road system is an impossible mess.

I vacillate between believing this is purposeful - the developers
using the architecture to emphasize the dehumanization and dystopia of
the setting - or just a rookie mistake. Either way, it's bad design:
as much as I love environmental storytelling, I play games for
entertainment, and the frustrating layout of the map - something I am
forced to engage with constantly as I drive from one mission to the
next - does not entertain me. If it was purposeful, the needs of the
story should have been reined to better serve the purpose of the game.


- It doesn't help that the mini-map is useless. Oh, it's wonderfully
detailed and - on foot - works exactly as expected. But it doesn't
scale out adequately when in a vehicle, and - when speeding down the
road at 120kph (as one does) - it's zoomed in too much to be useful.
Perhaps with a wider view, I'd have a better idea of how the various
districts fit together, but seeing the world only in half-block chunks
isn't helping. Certainly such a narrow zoom makes the map almost
useless when trying to speed down the twisty roads, because I am
either half a block past the turn-off before I even know I was meant
to cut right, or I'm so constantly fixated on the map that I don't see
the truck in front of me.


- Too many of the missions are timed. Not in the usual way we think of
timed missions ("you have 3 minutes to reach the button at the end of
the dungeon or mission failed!"), thankfully. Instead, the missions
only present themselves after a certain amount of time has passed
since certain trigger events occur. Kill a bad guy, and then the game
waits two or three days before you get a follow-up call offering the
next mission. Or you finish one part of a mission and then are told to
wait 24 hours for an accomplice to call you so you can proceed to the
next part. There's a lot of waiting in this game, and I'm never sure
if it's safe to proceed with the main quest or if I should wait a bit
longer lest I miss out on some side-quest.


- The crafting is a time-wasting grind. Gear is upgraded level by
level, and each level requires you to hold down a button for four
seconds (don't let go early or it restarts). There's never enough
upgrade parts, and it's never clear how effective the upgrades will
be. I've upgraded a "legendary" weapon and later found "common" gear
that is more effective. It all feels so random. It leads to me
hoarding every gun because even that useless wrench I found in some
procedural mission might be - if upgraded to maximum level - the
uber-weapon I've always wanted. So I dutifully collect every gun,
scour the city for upgrade parts, and ever so slowly upgrade them to
maximum level. It's a waste of time and doesn't add anything to the
game.


- The game hides information in loading screens. Not a lot, but more
than it should. There's the usual helpful hints, of course, but also
backstory and plot rehashes. It's a good idea but one whose utility is
negated by modern hardware. The game loads fast. I never get an
opportunity to see any of it (in fact, it was thirty hours in before I
even NOTICED the helpful hints on the load screen... and even knowing
they're there, I still can't read them).


- The inventory screen is messy. It's all icon based (because text
lists are passé, I suppose) and low-information density. There's not
enough ways to sort the items, and what few there are, aren't
remembered (I sort one way, leave the inventory screen, return to the
inventory screen, and it's returned to 'default' sorting). Upgrading
gear is weirdly on its own screen rather than integrated into the main inventory. Some parts of the inventory can be navigated with keyboard,
others are mouse only. It's clumsy and amateur.


---------------

Those are some of the worst. None of the problems are serious, but
they grate. Especially since there was a lot of skill and work poured
into the game, and these problems - many of which are obvious - stand
out. They should have been hammered out long before the game was
released. They're the sort of thing that rookie designers do... or
companies that ignore their QA team. It's not what I expect from the
team that made "The Witcher 3".

I expected better.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in news:ao7e8ipk625s13rh6nneia4012mfv7968j@4ax.com:

or companies that ignore their QA team.

I assume you know the story of their QA team?

--
Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos -- the only sysadmins that matter

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 6/12/2023 8:56 AM, Mark P. Nelson wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in news:ao7e8ipk625s13rh6nneia4012mfv7968j@4ax.com:

or companies that ignore their QA team.

I assume you know the story of their QA team?

I don't.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:20:29 AM UTC-7, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

On 6/12/2023 8:56 AM, Mark P. Nelson wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote in news:ao7e8ipk625s13rh6...@4ax.com:

or companies that ignore their QA team.

I assume you know the story of their QA team?

I don't.

https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/external-qa-team-allegedly-misled-cd-projekt-red-over-cyberpunk-2077-3257686

The short, they outsourced QA to a company that lied about their experience, the number of people and focused on minor issues.

This is why you don't outsource things that can directly affect your end product.

- Justisaur

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 11:20:28 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

On 6/12/2023 8:56 AM, Mark P. Nelson wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ao7e8ipk625s13rh6nneia4012mfv7968j@4ax.com:

or companies that ignore their QA team.

I assume you know the story of their QA team?

I don't.

I had to google it myself (I'd read the story when it was new, but
it's been a year so the details had escaped me).

Essentially, a whistle-blower from Quantic Labs - a firm CDProjekt Red
hired for QA - alleged that the team was undersized, that its team was
made up of junior members with less than six months experience, and,
due to an imposed daily quota for number of incident reports, issue
relatively pointless bug reports to bolster their numbers.*

Quantic Labs denies these allegations** (well, they would) and points
out that there was more than one QA firm working on the game anyway.

But whether there were problems with Quantic or not, it does speak of
problems at CD Projekt Red management. The game was released in an
extremely slipshod state, and even 30 months later, there are still a
lot of rough edges to the game. I have encountered numerous graphical
glitches, physics-based bugs, audio problems and crash-to-desktop
events. The game isn't unplayable - and the fact that I keep going
back to it speaks something of the strength of its gameplay - but this
is sort of thing that should have been taken care of before release,
much less two and a half years later.

The peeves I brought up are more ephemeral - less technological
failings and more gameplay issues - but are still the sort of thing
that should have been considered prior to release. You could argue
some of them (the mazelike city layout) are purposeful decisions I
just happen to disagree with, but others - like the mini-map are just
bad design.***

None of the issues are critical**** but it seems out of character for
a proven development team like CD Projekt RED. So whether it's because
one of the QA teams they hired was subpar, or because were ignoring
the reports they were getting, I'm putting the blame on CD Projekt RED management.

I hate razzing on this game because, like I've repeatedly says, it's
not without its strengths. But at the same time, the developers really
dropped the ball with this one. It could have been so much better than
it turned out.




--------------------
* read (a little bit more about) the story here: https://www.kotaku.com.au/2022/06/cyberpunk-2077-qa-testing/
** read about the denial here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2022/06/28/cyberpunk-2077-qa-studio-responds-to-whistleblower-accusations/
*** fortunately, this one at least has been fixed by modders, although
I'd like to finish the game 'honestly' first before employing mods https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/2959
**** well, maybe the CTD, but I think that's caused by quick-saving
right before using a quick-travel point, so it's possible to avoid
that problem

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 6/12/2023 10:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

"Cyberpunk 2077" isn't a bad game. It just isn't great.

Agreed, but it could have been great with just a little more effort and direction though. That's what frustrated me the most - the pieces were
all there, they just didn't fit together very well.

The worst offender to me though was the writing, some of the dialogue
was so cringe in places that I wanted to skip forward and therefore
things like story and character development, which weren't too bad,
would have gone out the window as well.

It's been a while since I last played it but the game was wildly
unbalanced as well, I went the cyber hacker route and could clear most
levels without firing a single shot - connect to camera, find baddies
then fry their brains remotely. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Let's just say I'm glad I only payed $10 for a steelcase version of the
game :)

--
He Who Hath Not a Uterus Should Shut the Fucketh Up - Fallopians 19:73

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:46:57 -0400, Metal Guru <MetalGuru@IsItYou.com>
wrote:

On 6/12/2023 10:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

"Cyberpunk 2077" isn't a bad game. It just isn't great.

It's been a while since I last played it but the game was wildly
unbalanced as well, I went the cyber hacker route and could clear most
levels without firing a single shot - connect to camera, find baddies
then fry their brains remotely. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Yeah, the System Reset power is - to use the vernacular of the youth -
'way OP'. It isn't helped that the AI is so poor either; so long as
you don't enter the designated "hostile zone" while using this tactic,
they will never become aggressive, even as I picked them off one by
one. The only real threat was the surveillance cameras themselves,
which would trigger the baddies if they saw a corpse, which only meant
I'd have to shut down the cameras first. Using that power, combat was
more busy-work than thrilling.

On the plus side, 'system reset' doesn't count as killing them,
allowing a (largely*) pacifist run.

Eventually, though, I got bored and just started walking in and
whacking the baddies with my baton. By that time I was so overpowered
though that their bullets were doing near to no damage and a single
swipe took them out. The gunplay - when I bothered with it - was a bit
better, even if it did feel a bit too much like Ubisoft's "The
Division", where I was chipping away at hitpoint bars rather than
shooting people.

TL;DR: The combat in the game isn't its strength, and the cyberpowers
are stupidly overpowered.



----------------------
* There were some deaths in the early game, before I got a handle on
how things worked. And a few unfortunate explosions here and there. A
few mis-steps by the bad-guys off a ledge after I shut-down their
bodies. And more than a few incidents of accidental vehicular
homicide. But that's life in Night City, and I did /try/ to limit the
carnage. That counts as a pacifist run, right?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, June 13, 2023 at 6:33:19 AM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:46:57 -0400, Metal Guru <Meta...@IsItYou.com>
wrote:

On 6/12/2023 10:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

"Cyberpunk 2077" isn't a bad game. It just isn't great.

It's been a while since I last played it but the game was wildly >unbalanced as well, I went the cyber hacker route and could clear most >levels without firing a single shot - connect to camera, find baddies
then fry their brains remotely. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

Yeah, the System Reset power is - to use the vernacular of the youth -
'way OP'. It isn't helped that the AI is so poor either; so long as
you don't enter the designated "hostile zone" while using this tactic,
they will never become aggressive, even as I picked them off one by
one. The only real threat was the surveillance cameras themselves,
which would trigger the baddies if they saw a corpse, which only meant
I'd have to shut down the cameras first. Using that power, combat was
more busy-work than thrilling.

On the plus side, 'system reset' doesn't count as killing them,
allowing a (largely*) pacifist run.

Eventually, though, I got bored and just started walking in and
whacking the baddies with my baton. By that time I was so overpowered
though that their bullets were doing near to no damage and a single
swipe took them out. The gunplay - when I bothered with it - was a bit better, even if it did feel a bit too much like Ubisoft's "The
Division", where I was chipping away at hitpoint bars rather than
shooting people.

TL;DR: The combat in the game isn't its strength, and the cyberpowers
are stupidly overpowered.

There's a whole skill overhaul patch among other things that's supposed
to come out when the DLC does. It's scheduled for 9-26-23, but of
course I wouldn't be surprised if that slips. I'm eagerly waiting for that one, I'd like to replay the game, and that will likely greatly increase the value of replaying it.

- Justisaur

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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This person (a voice actor in the game) has played some of the new update,
and is very impressed at the changes:
https://i.imgur.com/JF4L5Jy.png
https://i.imgur.com/6ONxwhN.png
https://i.imgur.com/UPJMY84.png

Guess we'll see!

rms

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:13:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm continuing my journeys through Night City...

"Cyberpunk 2077" isn't a bad game. It just isn't great. I play it; I >generally enjoy it, but it has its flaws. Some flaws are bigger than
others. None of them really ruin the game. But I can't help but think,
"What if they weren't there. What could this game have been?"

Not really a peeve, just an amusing observation I made while playing
the game:

You can really tell the developers of "Cyberpunk 2077" are from
Europe. All the roads in the game not only have clearly defined and
separated sidewalks, but many of them have what look to be bike-lanes
too. I've been to a lot of cities in the United States and there's no
way that - even in fifty years time - there would be that much
infrastructure put into pedestrian movement. Especially in the US
West, which is dominated by the automobile. And certainly not given
the calamitous history the game foretells.

(can you foretell a history?)


I don't hold this against the game; after all, it is aping the
landscapes of NeoTokyo and other cyberpunk realms.

But it gives me a chuckle. All those sidewalks? The sci-fi aspects of
the game are more realistic.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 18/06/2023 16:37, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

You can really tell the developers of "Cyberpunk 2077" are from
Europe. All the roads in the game not only have clearly defined and
separated sidewalks, but many of them have what look to be bike-lanes
too. I've been to a lot of cities in the United States and there's no
way that - even in fifty years time - there would be that much
infrastructure put into pedestrian movement. Especially in the US
West, which is dominated by the automobile. And certainly not given
the calamitous history the game foretells.

I remember in Dallas thinking that it was handy that the light railway
was about a ten minute walk away from the hotel. The problem was you
basically couldn't walk to it without taking your life in your own hands.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:13:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:


Another comment on the game:

I'm really surprised at how much Keanu Reeves features in the game.
When I heard of his involvement, I thought it would be the usual
'famous actor in a video game' cameo, a la Patrick Stewart in
'Oblivion', where he only voiced a few lines for the intro. It was a
gimmick, I figured; Reeves was associated with one of the most famous
cyberpunk movies ever made, and attaching him to a cyberpunk game -
however briefly - seemed the sort of manuever the marketing
department dreamt up.

But, no, Reeves features prominently in the game. He's not a constant
companion but he plays a major role and pops up a lot... not only in
the main quest, but even in most of the side quests and smaller
missions. After the actor(s) playing the protagonist, he probably has
the most voice lines in the game. That's a lot more dedication to the
role than I expected from a Hollywood mega-star.

Of course, being Reeves, it's really hard to determine if the dry
readings of his lines is a result of 'phoning it in' or because that's
just his usual style. He's not the most expressive actor. ;-)

Honestly, I don't think Reeves brings anything to the game any other
actor couldn't have; frankly, I think I would have preferred a less recognizable voice-actor so I could focus more on the character and
less on, "Hey, it's Keanu!". His inclusion was more distraction than
anything. And apparently Reeves did enjoy the role; I don't want to
diminish his efforts (if anything, this comment is to praise how much
he put into a video game compared to other Hollywood screen actors). I
just think, directorally, it was the wrong choice.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 9:29:59 AM UTC-7, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:13:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallsh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Another comment on the game:

I'm really surprised at how much Keanu Reeves features in the game.
When I heard of his involvement, I thought it would be the usual
'famous actor in a video game' cameo, a la Patrick Stewart in
'Oblivion', where he only voiced a few lines for the intro. It was a gimmick, I figured; Reeves was associated with one of the most famous cyberpunk movies ever made, and attaching him to a cyberpunk game -
however briefly - seemed the sort of manuever the marketing
department dreamt up.

But, no, Reeves features prominently in the game. He's not a constant companion but he plays a major role and pops up a lot... not only in
the main quest, but even in most of the side quests and smaller
missions. After the actor(s) playing the protagonist, he probably has
the most voice lines in the game. That's a lot more dedication to the
role than I expected from a Hollywood mega-star.

Of course, being Reeves, it's really hard to determine if the dry
readings of his lines is a result of 'phoning it in' or because that's
just his usual style. He's not the most expressive actor. ;-)

Honestly, I don't think Reeves brings anything to the game any other
actor couldn't have; frankly, I think I would have preferred a less recognizable voice-actor so I could focus more on the character and
less on, "Hey, it's Keanu!". His inclusion was more distraction than anything. And apparently Reeves did enjoy the role; I don't want to
diminish his efforts (if anything, this comment is to praise how much
he put into a video game compared to other Hollywood screen actors). I
just think, directorally, it was the wrong choice.

I think he does a good job, and threads the line between unlikable
asshole anarchist and sympathetic Don Quixote having lost his
pointless battle now trapped in a prison. I can rationalize his somewhat wooden performance as being a combination of brain damage from
drugs and alcohol and his current circumstances as a shadow of
his former self.

I could certainly see someone like say Henry Rollins being a
possibly better choice for the hardcore anarchist rocker though.

- Justisaur

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 6/12/2023 10:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

Those are some of the worst. None of the problems are serious, but
they grate. Especially since there was a lot of skill and work poured
into the game, and these problems - many of which are obvious - stand
out. They should have been hammered out long before the game was
released. They're the sort of thing that rookie designers do... or
companies that ignore their QA team. It's not what I expect from the
team that made "The Witcher 3".

Patch 1.63 dropped today, I'm disappointed they did not include
skipping the cutscenes (for my second playthrough, maybe the DLC will
take care of that but I'm going to be starting a new game soon-ish).
And braindances could be optional as well, those were a Major Pita.

I think the coming Patch 1.7 will be the one that supposedly overhauls
a lot of the game mechanics, this one is just bug and quest fixes
apparently.

https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/48364/patch-1-63-list-of-changes

--
If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you take a man on
a luxury fishing vacation, you can own the US Supreme Court.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I think the coming Patch 1.7 will be the one that supposedly overhauls
a lot of the game mechanics, this one is just bug and quest fixes
apparently. >https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/48364/patch-1-63-list-of-changes

Good to hear; I pre-ordered :P the DLC so looking forward to it !!

rms

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 9:52:20 PM UTC-7, Metal Guru wrote:

On 6/12/2023 10:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

Those are some of the worst. None of the problems are serious, but
they grate. Especially since there was a lot of skill and work poured
into the game, and these problems - many of which are obvious - stand
out. They should have been hammered out long before the game was
released. They're the sort of thing that rookie designers do... or companies that ignore their QA team. It's not what I expect from the
team that made "The Witcher 3".

Patch 1.63 dropped today, I'm disappointed they did not include
skipping the cutscenes (for my second playthrough, maybe the DLC will
take care of that but I'm going to be starting a new game soon-ish).
And braindances could be optional as well, those were a Major Pita.

I think the coming Patch 1.7 will be the one that supposedly overhauls
a lot of the game mechanics, this one is just bug and quest fixes apparently.

Supposedly 2.0 is going to be the overhaul, and supposedly concurrent
with the DLC release, which is scheduled Sep or later.

- Justisaur

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Phantom Liberty First Look: https://youtu.be/1054agP0vds

rms

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 23 Jun 2023 00:52:15 -0400, Metal Guru <MetalGuru@IsItYou.com>
wrote:

On 6/12/2023 10:13 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

Those are some of the worst. None of the problems are serious, but
they grate. Especially since there was a lot of skill and work poured
into the game, and these problems - many of which are obvious - stand
out. They should have been hammered out long before the game was
released. They're the sort of thing that rookie designers do... or
companies that ignore their QA team. It's not what I expect from the
team that made "The Witcher 3".

Patch 1.63 dropped today, I'm disappointed they did not include
skipping the cutscenes (for my second playthrough, maybe the DLC will
take care of that but I'm going to be starting a new game soon-ish).
And braindances could be optional as well, those were a Major Pita.

I think the coming Patch 1.7 will be the one that supposedly overhauls
a lot of the game mechanics, this one is just bug and quest fixes
apparently.

https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/48364/patch-1-63-list-of-changes

Sadly, having exhausted all the quests - main, side, and mini -
already - I saw almost no benefit from the patch. But most of the
problems I faced weren't technical (which is mostly what the patch
fixes) anyway, but bad design decisions.

The v1.7 patch, which will be released concurrently with the DLC (but
made available to everyone) may fix things, but I'm not too sanguine.
Still, just adding a more reactive AI could help. Maxed out, your PC
is an unstoppable killing machine - I've tested this by going on a
rampage, and literally run out of targets long before my health or
ammo reach the halfway mark. This lack of difficulty not only makes
for less engaging gameplay, but greatly hurts the narrative. I could
literally walk into Arasokka Tower and take whatever I want, yet
people are still treating me like a scrub?

But ultimately, it's the setting itself that is "Cyberpunk 2077's"
greatest weakness... or rather, the game's implementation of it. The
city lacks the vermisilitude and character of other, better open-world
games. For all its beauty, it's not a fun place to wander around and
have adventure in. It reminds me a lot of "Mafia II", which had a
similar problem: a gorgeous world, strong characters and narrative,
functional gameplay... and an open-world criminally under utilized.

I don't think the v1.7 patch is going to fix all that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:13:07 -0400, Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm continuing my journeys through Night City...

You know, one thing I'd really like from this game? A third-person
mode. First-person mode works well if I'm supposed to BE the person in
the game. It worked well for the original "Half Life"; it worked for
games like "Everybody Goes to the Rapture". In those games, the
protagonist has no real personality - and no lines - except those I
give them. But in other games - like "Cyberpunk 2077" - I'm taking the
role of somebody else, and it's really hard for me to engage with the
character when all I ever see of him or her are their hands. Arguably
the combat is more engaging if restricted to first-person, but for
everything else? Well, there's a reason most movies don't use the
first-person view except as a gimmick.

So, a third-person mod - optionally, one that would allow me to switch
between the various viewpoints at will - seems almost obligatory for
this game. There are, of course, fan-made patches but - because the
game was designed solely with first-person in mind - these are
somewhat buggy and limited in utility. It's really something that
needs to be built into the game from the start.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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