(TL;DR: Some developers are questioning the benefits of selling on the
Epic Game Store)
On 18/08/2022 20:44, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
(TL;DR: Some developers are questioning the benefits of selling on the
Epic Game Store)
<snip>
One thing you did touch on was algorithms that 'push' games towards
players. Steam is ok with that but the two problems I find are there's a
lot more to liking a game than is it the same genre tag. So I get
recommend Elden Ring even though I don't own a single game like that.
Related is how self-reenforcing is it. So I buy a game because it was >recommended to me and the algorithm then just offers me more of the same
and so on goes that circle.
As you say though it would be nice to have at least some real
competition to Steam as although so far I think I'd describe them as >pro-customer who knows what would happen if someone comes in with an
offer that Gabe can't ignore.
On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:46:03 +0100, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
On 18/08/2022 20:44, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
(TL;DR: Some developers are questioning the benefits of selling on the
Epic Game Store)
<snip>
One thing you did touch on was algorithms that 'push' games towards
players. Steam is ok with that but the two problems I find are there's a
lot more to liking a game than is it the same genre tag. So I get
recommend Elden Ring even though I don't own a single game like that.
Related is how self-reenforcing is it. So I buy a game because it was
recommended to me and the algorithm then just offers me more of the same
and so on goes that circle.
Steam's algorithms are imperfect but they apparently are
head-n-shoulders above Epic's attempts. Valve's attempts at least
present less-commonly known games out of its libary to players whereas
Epic's recommendations are - so say some developers - just titles that
are popular. So if you're game isn't a hit, you'll never gain enough
of an audience to become one... unless you've resources enough to
advertise the game outside Epic (hence, the 'black hole' description).
Steam is less restrictive in its selection, promoting well-reviewed
titles even if they smaller audiences.
Of course, Steam's huge library (more games to compete against) and
somewhat dodgy recommendations means that promotion may not result in
extra sales... but developers on Epic sometimes feel as if they've put
a game on EGS only to find its been buried never to be seen by mortal
men again (thus, only fans who know of a game's existence finds it).
Steam's algorithms may not be effective, but they at least give
developers the appearance that Valve is on their side, whereas on EGS
it seems as if Epic isn't doing anything.
So yay for Epic getting in the game, boo for how they implemented it.
Still, even if Epic did act in a way that many customers found
offensive, it had a lot of promise to developers.
Am 18.08.22 um 21:44 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
So yay for Epic getting in the game, boo for how they implemented it.
Still, even if Epic did act in a way that many customers found
offensive, it had a lot of promise to developers.
Well my only problem with Epic is Tim Sweeney and his attitude, they
really had all the goodwill but their stance on locking games away as
timed exclusives cost them their entire goodwill. Add on top the
occasional trolling comment of Tim Sweeney, which usually bites him in
the ... a few years later and the general attitude of, Valve earned
billions by opening a market which we declared dead and now we want in
by all force, does not make them sympathethic.
The funny thing is
Sweeney declares PC gaming basically dead and not worthwhile due to piracy >Newell sees piracy as a service issue and rakes in billions a few years >later.
Sweeney jealous now tries to force hin is own store with less service
dumps millions into locked games does not get any inch forward.
The same now with Linux gaming.
Sweeney: Gaming on Linux is like people shouting they want to move to
Canada for political reasons
Valve sees Linux as their saftey net just in case Microsoft closes
windows, dumps in millions to improve game compatibility and now brings
out a successful console on top of it which runs basically 90% of their
huge catalog day zero.
Epic cries fould and tries to smear a weird picture in social media that
the Steam Deck should run Fortnite (which Epic refuses a port for
political reasons)
So the entire picture I have of Epic is like this unwanted bully with
too much cash, who pays to have friends but literally no one really likes.
Or also a compariso would be that Epic/Sweeney is the Eric Cartman of
gaming, that comes probably closer!
As I said, Eric Cartman of game stores, you cannot avoid them for theJust to give another quote from Sweeney: "Our customers are not the
free candy they offer but stay the hell away from them dealing with them
for any other reason.
And it worked... to a degree. EGS went from almost no users to tens of millions, and many developers rushed to the platform. But millions ofYes, I am one of those, sure I have the EGS store installed, but only
users doesn't necessarily translate to millions of sales. A vast
number of its users only visit the Epic Game Store for the free games
and never buy anything there
I can't say I disagree; as I said, it's Epic's implementation and not
its idea that was wrong. Epic didn't enter the market with the idea of offering a better product but instead hoped that its massive Fortnite warchest would allow the company to, essentially, buy its way to
market prominence (either by locking games behind exclusivity deals,
giving customers $10 vouchers, or just a lot of free games).
And it worked... to a degree. EGS went from almost no users to tens of millions, and many developers rushed to the platform. But millions of
users doesn't necessarily translate to millions of sales. A vast
number of its users only visit the Epic Game Store for the free games
and never buy anything there. Whether this is because they don't like
Epic, or find EGS inconvenient, or because it doesn't have any games
or prices they like, a lot of them turn to Steam first. And the
titular 'black hole' that is Epic's marketing does nothing to change
that.
Am 24.08.22 um 07:38 schrieb Werner P.:
Just to give another quote from Sweeney: "Our customers are not the
As I said, Eric Cartman of game stores, you cannot avoid them for the
free candy they offer but stay the hell away from them dealing with
them for any other reason.
people buying the games but the game studios"
I think this attitude says it all, he said that regarding the EGS and
their behavior buying exclusives!
It still amazes me that people in his position don't realise the damageWell Epic is in the comfortable position of having one product which is
they can slowly do to their own brand just with statements like this. Oh
so you're not sure that Epic are customer friendly, well let me just
clarify that you're absolutely right.
Personally I just look at it and think why would I want to tie a largeThe entire store feels like a personal greed vendetta of Sweeney he has
part of my games library to a store-front which is worse than the one I already use and it's run by a company that I have very little trust in
to not to try and screw their own customers over if they could make a
quick buck.
Am 24.08.22 um 07:38 schrieb Werner P.:
As I said, Eric Cartman of game stores, you cannot avoid them for the
free candy they offer but stay the hell away from them dealing with them
for any other reason.
Just to give another quote from Sweeney: "Our customers are not the
people buying the games but the game studios"
I think this attitude says it all, he said that regarding the EGS and
their behavior buying exclusives!
Am 24.08.22 um 11:20 schrieb JAB:
Personally I just look at it and think why would I want to tie a large
part of my games library to a store-front which is worse than the one I
already use and it's run by a company that I have very little trust in
to not to try and screw their own customers over if they could make a
quick buck.
The entire store feels like a personal greed vendetta of Sweeney he has
with Valve because they are successful in areas Sweeny over and over >dismissed as not viable.
The Steam Deck and their success with it is just one of those areas
where Sweeney ultimately failed to see any market!
Thats also the reason why they are so aggressively anti Steam with
everything they do but have less problems with the other stores.
In fact, reports are that many Indies use theirYes quality wise that fits the bill, problem is, that once the game hits
Epic exclusivity as a sort of 'early access' and the product that
eventually gets released on Steam a year later is the better version
Not supporting the Steam Deck actually makes sense. The Steam Deck is primarily a device designed to push sales towards Steam, after all.
Yes, you/can/ get EGS running on it, but most gamers won't bother
with that, and even if they do, Steam will still remain their primary interface to the device. Propping up the functionality of Steam Deck
by adding EGS support helps Valve far more than it does Epic.
It's not just that Epic failed to deliver a good product with the EGS
client. It's not just that Epic failed to read the room when marketing
the thing, not realizing that their methods and history would work
against them. It's also that they've absolutely failed to adapt to
these failures. It's cost them (paying) end-users, and it's causing disaffection with its developers.
Epic needs to do a complete rethink of how they will move forward,
because simply throwing money around and pushing forward bullishly
isn't going to work. It was a strategy that was - arguably - a great
way to introduce themselves into the market, but now that they're a
feature it's probably working against them more than it helps.
On 24/08/2022 17:20, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
If I was being cynical their whole strategy of just throw money at
people comes as somewhat arrogant in that it treats gamers as somewhat >stupid. Did no one put their hand up and say, you do realise that a lot
of gamers will just get the free games and then go back to Steam.
There could also be an aspect of who wants to be the one who stands up
and says, that plan you put in place, well it's rubbish and didn't work
so we need to come up with a new one. Something that is depressingly
common in my career has been things gain their own momentum and nobody
wants to take a step back and just say that doesn't work and force of
will isn't going to change that.
So the free games strategy? It's actually a pretty good one; it's been
proven again and again that it works (the whole Black Thursday sales
bonazas American stores do in November are based on the idea). Lure
people in with the idea of getting a bargain (or freebie) and then
rake in the cash from when they buy extra stuff once their in the
store. Because just getting them to the store is always the hardest
part.
But is it arrogant? Is it a dismissal of gamer's inate intelligence?
Not any more than/any/ marketing scheme is, I think, and if it is the
fact that it works sort of proves them right.;-)
The shorter version is, yes people can be stupid but not many people are
that stupid.
On 26/08/2022 15:22, Dimensional Traveler wrote:hvlocphy=1006565&hvtargid=pla-1655925555262&psc=1
On 8/26/2022 2:23 AM, JAB wrote:
The shorter version is, yes people can be stupid but not many peopleRespectfully I have to disagree about the number of stupid people.
are that stupid.
First, companies wouldn't still be using "cheap" gimmicks that rely on
people being "stupid" if they didn't work.
Second, I've worked before with law enforcement in a tech support role
and am currently working at my local District Attorney's office. (The
local agency that prosecutes criminal cases in the US.)Â Many of the
defendants are "How do they remember how to breathe?" stupid. And
there are LOTS of them.
My favorite way of illustrating this is, think about how dumb the
average person is and then realize that by definition half the human
race has to be dumber than THAT. ;)
Oh, and for stupid people you'd have to be one to fall for the device
linked below. It claims to reduce fuel consumption of your car between
15% and 50% (it depends on which one you buy) just by plugging it into
the computer port. The reality, naturally, is that it does nothing
except flashes some LED's. I honestly find it difficult to believe how
anyone is going to look at it and think, well that looks legit.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Multibao-Economy-Tuning-Petrol-Benzine/dp/B09YCM5RMD/ref=asc_df_B09YCM5RMD/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=570341760913&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8647188059514574594&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&
On 8/26/2022 2:23 AM, JAB wrote:
The shorter version is, yes people can be stupid but not many peopleRespectfully I have to disagree about the number of stupid people.
are that stupid.
First, companies wouldn't still be using "cheap" gimmicks that rely on
people being "stupid" if they didn't work.
Second, I've worked before with law enforcement in a tech support role
and am currently working at my local District Attorney's office. (The
local agency that prosecutes criminal cases in the US.) Many of the defendants are "How do they remember how to breathe?" stupid. And there
are LOTS of them.
My favorite way of illustrating this is, think about how dumb the
average person is and then realize that by definition half the human
race has to be dumber than THAT. ;)
On 26/08/2022 15:22, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 8/26/2022 2:23 AM, JAB wrote:
The shorter version is, yes people can be stupid but not many peopleRespectfully I have to disagree about the number of stupid people.
are that stupid.
I will have to respectfully, respectfull disagree :-)
First, companies wouldn't still be using "cheap" gimmicks that rely on
people being "stupid" if they didn't work.
They do as they are psychological tricks that do work. So as an example in-game currency in WoT. At Xmas there is a lootbox event and a lot of
what you get is gold (the in-game currency that you can buy with real
money). Now the trick here is to convince you that you get 'value for
money' when in fact what a lot of people do is spend more than they
normally would and then convince themselves that they did the right
thing. The second trick is once you've brought in-game currency that
money is gone so when it comes to spending it, it's 'easier' to do that
as it has a perceived lower value.
The problem I have with the Epic one it relies on a link that I just
don't think is there. So take the Black Friday example, get people in
the store to grab a 'bargain' and even if they can't get it they are
more likely to just buy any old tat that don't really want because of
sunk cost fallacy. Free games on the ES just really don't translate, in
my opinion, as you've got your bargain (a free game) so what motivation
is there to buy a full price game just because you visited their site or indeed what is your digital store of choice.
Second, I've worked before with law enforcement in a tech support role
and am currently working at my local District Attorney's office. (The
local agency that prosecutes criminal cases in the US.)Â Many of the
defendants are "How do they remember how to breathe?" stupid. And
there are LOTS of them.
I'm not sure that your average criminal can be used as a representative sample of the average intelligence of a PC gamer!
On 8/26/2022 2:23 AM, JAB wrote:
The shorter version is, yes people can be stupid but not many peopleRespectfully I have to disagree about the number of stupid people.
are that stupid.
First, companies wouldn't still be using "cheap" gimmicks that rely on
people being "stupid" if they didn't work.
Second, I've worked before with law enforcement in a tech support role
and am currently working at my local District Attorney's office. (The
local agency that prosecutes criminal cases in the US.) Many of the defendants are "How do they remember how to breathe?" stupid. And there
are LOTS of them.
My favorite way of illustrating this is, think about how dumb the
average person is and then realize that by definition half the human
race has to be dumber than THAT. ;)
The thinking is that, once that hurdle is past, once the client isDid work out well, didn´t it. Epic overestimated the stupidty of the
installed, THEN they'll buy stuff. There's a reason, after all, you
have to scroll three or four pages down the store page before you see
the free games on Thursday; they want you to see all the stuff you can
buy first.
Am 25.08.22 um 20:51 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
The thinking is that, once that hurdle is past, once the client isDid work out well, didn´t it. Epic overestimated the stupidty of the
installed, THEN they'll buy stuff. There's a reason, after all, you
have to scroll three or four pages down the store page before you see
the free games on Thursday; they want you to see all the stuff you can
buy first.
average people big time!
A first in history!
I'm not sure that your average criminal can be used as aThey are a representative sample of "humans" so.... Seriously, most of
representative sample of the average intelligence of a PC gamer!
the calls made to 911 have nothing to do with a crime. And many of the
ones that do, do so only because the individuals involved are so dumb
that they commit a crime without intent.
On 27/08/2022 12:06, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
I'm not sure that your average criminal can be used as aThey are a representative sample of "humans" so.... Seriously, most
representative sample of the average intelligence of a PC gamer!
of the calls made to 911 have nothing to do with a crime. And many of
the ones that do, do so only because the individuals involved are so
dumb that they commit a crime without intent.
They aren't representative though as people don't phone up the police to
say I saw this but I'm not so stupid as to think it's a crime so I'm not reporting it. The second example is also self-selecting as you've only
got dumb people in the sample. What about all the other people who don't
do that?
On 28/08/2022 10:22, Werner P. wrote:
Am 25.08.22 um 20:51 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
The thinking is that, once that hurdle is past, once the client isDid work out well, didn´t it. Epic overestimated the stupidty of the
installed, THEN they'll buy stuff. There's a reason, after all, you
have to scroll three or four pages down the store page before you see
the free games on Thursday; they want you to see all the stuff you can
buy first.
average people big time!
A first in history!
I can understand the idea of this is a good way of getting people to
come to the store but there seems very little in-place after that to
actually get people to make it there digital store of choice.
On 8/28/2022 3:16 AM, JAB wrote:
On 27/08/2022 12:06, Dimensional Traveler wrote:The "dumb people sample" is a significant percentage of the total
I'm not sure that your average criminal can be used as aThey are a representative sample of "humans" so.... Seriously, most
representative sample of the average intelligence of a PC gamer!
of the calls made to 911 have nothing to do with a crime. And many
of the ones that do, do so only because the individuals involved are
so dumb that they commit a crime without intent.
They aren't representative though as people don't phone up the police
to say I saw this but I'm not so stupid as to think it's a crime so
I'm not reporting it. The second example is also self-selecting as
you've only got dumb people in the sample. What about all the other
people who don't do that?
population.
I'm not clear on who the "People" are in your question but I think most likely they are either the half of the population above average in intelligence or are the people who don't call 911 when they see
something stupid that isn't a crime or ends in need of emergency medical assistance.
I can understand the idea of this is a good way of getting people toWell for that they were 10 years too late. You can either be better or
come to the store but there seems very little in-place after that to
actually get people to make it there digital store of choice.
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