Richard Garriot is making a new game! I don't think I can stress quite
how much I adored the old "Ultima" games. I absolutely loved those
programs and considered them some of the finest examples of CRPGs
written. To this day, I still put "Ultima VII" on a pedestal.
So why does this news fill me with dread?
Probably because he - like Ken and Roberta Williams - seem to be
banking on nostalgia rather than actual ability. The last truly great
game Garriot could claim a majority stake in developing was Ultima V,
and - as awesome an experience as that game was - it's close to 35
years old. His later projects owed their success as much to others
(including Warren Spector) as to Garriot himself, and games where
Garriot had more exclusive control tended to be... not fun.
It doesn't help that Garriot has espoused an interest in utilizing
'the blockchain' in this as-yet-unnamed game. Yup, NFTs rear their
ugly heads again. I'd love to say that if anyone could make NFTs a
useful part of gaming, it would be Garriot, but a) I don't believe
that, and b) his earlier flirtations with kickstarter ("Shroud of the Avatar") are ample evidence that he's not to be trusted in that
regard. His interest in blockchain only assures me that he is either a huckster or a fool, and neither are promising attributes in a game
developer.
So it's with an extremely heavy heart that I read that Garriot is
trying to make a comeback and all I can think is, "Oh god, I hope he
fails miserably and finally learns that his day as a developer is
over." Perhaps this lack of Compassion has cost me an eighth, but
that's just the way it is.
On 13/04/2022 17:09, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
Richard Garriot is making a new game! I don't think I can stress quite
how much I adored the old "Ultima" games. I absolutely loved those
programs and considered them some of the finest examples of CRPGs
written. To this day, I still put "Ultima VII" on a pedestal.
So why does this news fill me with dread?
It's a bit of a shame really when the big hitters don't realise that the
game industry moves fairly rapidly and is also fairly fickle when it
comes to what's the next big thing. It does happen in other parts of the >entertainment industry but games are far more prone to it. My assumption
is that in part that's due to computer games being more lead by
technology than say books or films. The flavour of the month genre may
change (boy I can't wait until we move away from, oh look another
Superhero film how original) but what you're doing is fundamentally the
same.
Another part, which I think applies to products in generally, is that a
lot of it just comes down to having the right product at the right time
also know as luck.
Games in the 80s and 90s were also far more niche than they are today.
Modern games are mass-market products; they need to be designed to
appeal to a huge swathe of the population if they are to make money.
Thirty years ago, the population of gamers was much more restricted - younger, whiter, more Western - and the games of that day catered to
their specific tastes.
Was "Bards Tale II" really that much better a game than, say,
"Sentinel Worlds"?
So why does this news fill me with dread?Well not dread, he is on to his usual con artist scheme
Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
Was "Bards Tale II" really that much better a game than, say,
"Sentinel Worlds"?
Yah, Bard's Tale II was definitely a better game than Sentinel Worlds I: >Future Magic. Much better? I'd have to go back and play them to go that >far, but I'd say significantly better at least. Sentinel Worlds was a
more ambitious game, more innovative, but I don't it really succeeded
at being what it wanted to be. Bard's Tale II was building on not just
the original Bard's Tale, but also Wizardry and other similar games.
It wasn't very innovative but it was a more polished game,
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 05:21:43 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:
Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
Was "Bards Tale II" really that much better a game than, say,
"Sentinel Worlds"?
Yah, Bard's Tale II was definitely a better game than Sentinel Worlds I:
Future Magic. Much better? I'd have to go back and play them to go that
far, but I'd say significantly better at least. Sentinel Worlds was a
more ambitious game, more innovative, but I don't it really succeeded
at being what it wanted to be. Bard's Tale II was building on not just
the original Bard's Tale, but also Wizardry and other similar games.
It wasn't very innovative but it was a more polished game,
Oh, I'm not going to argue that point. But - especially from a modern perspective - it's difficult to see the differences between the two,
yet one of the games is remembered fondly and the other is essentially forgotten. Even for its day, both games were satisfying.
Perhaps a better example would have been "Bards Tale I" and "Dragon
Wars"? Why did the latter disappear from the market while the former
series is still revered? It's not because the developer... who happen
to be the same for both games. Certainly it's not the game itself; personally, I think "Dragon Wars" was the far superior product. It's
the timing of the release and the marketing that played a much bigger
role... yet there is a continued belief in the 'rockstar developer'
that - I think - people like Garriot and Roberta Williams take
advantage of.
So it's with an extremely heavy heart that I read that Garriot isHe is not interested in games anymore, his vision of a fun game is
trying to make a comeback and all I can think is, "Oh god, I hope he
fails miserably and finally learns that his day as a developer is
over." Perhaps this lack of Compassion has cost me an eighth, but
that's just the way it is.
Am 13.04.22 um 18:09 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
So it's with an extremely heavy heart that I read that Garriot isHe is not interested in games anymore, his vision of a fun game is
trying to make a comeback and all I can think is, "Oh god, I hope he
fails miserably and finally learns that his day as a developer is
over." Perhaps this lack of Compassion has cost me an eighth, but
that's just the way it is.
selling things and getting a share of every item sold nowadays. He
clearly stated that in the Ultimate Collector, then he tried the same
with Shroud of the Avatar, which was basically a big asset store with a
buggy game attached to it and now he tries the same but adds NFTs.
In one of the interviews he said it irked him that people were earning
money by deals in Ultima Online and he did not get his share of those
deals, he wanted to fix that.
Btw. if you want to see a cringe video check his Ultimate Collector announcement, this shows much much he has lost it.
And no "rockstar" developers do not necessarily lose it over the years.
Just check Ron Gilbert, he does smaller games with small teams but every single one of them has been good.
The same goes for the couple who did the Quest for Glory games, they are doing the occasional game every once in a while, solid good indie experiences.
Why I hate RG nowadays is, that he is not honest and basically applies
con artist methods in his dealings. He promised stuff which never was delivered to NCSoft with Tabula Rasa (one of the many reasons why they
ousted him). Then he did the same to the kickstarter backers. After that basically they he got rid of the liabilities to their investors with Portalarium and SOTA in a shady way.
And now he runs the same scheme with the same bunch of shady people with
his next project, but plasters NFTs on top of it left and right.
Here is the ultimate collector video I was talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2PbH1GU0c
He clearly has another vision of fun than everbody else.
Here is the ultimate collector video I was talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V2PbH1GU0c
He clearly has another vision of fun than everbody else.
I did watch the video and yes that's pretty awful. You couldn't get
further away from Ultima if you tried.
Am 21.04.22 um 10:11 schrieb JAB:
Shroud of the Avatar basically was Ultimate collector reloaded on top of
an Ultimaish setting. And again it bombed. Now his next game is his
third approach on the "Sell things to others and give me a share is so
much fun" game design.
Whatever EA did with the franchise in Ultima Forever with their lootbox >system, what Gariott did in SoTA was ten times worse. Both games bombed,
and rightfully so.
I just wished the series would go into the hands of people actually
wanting to make a solid single player experience instead of selling >overpriced bits and bytes to people.
Or just let the franchise die. As much as it pains me to say it, as
much as I love the Ultima games, but it's time has come and gone. We
should never forget its lessons but let's build on them rather than
repeat them ad infinitum.
I'm willing to give Garriot a pass for SotA* because I don't think he intended it be the pay-to-(win)** shit-show it eventually became. SotA
was intended to half mainstream Ultima & half Ultima Online***, and
took ideas from both. Owning 'land' was one of UO's biggest features,
so it's no surprise it was added to Shroud. Then that became a
convenient way to bring in bit extra development cash... and then it
just spiraled downward, until selling to 'land investors' became the
primary goal, rather than creating an enjoyable game.
I just wished the series would go into the hands of people actuallyOr just let the franchise die. As much as it pains me to say it, as
wanting to make a solid single player experience instead of selling
overpriced bits and bytes to people.
much as I love the Ultima games, but it's time has come and gone. We
should never forget its lessons but let's build on them rather than
repeat them ad infinitum.
On 21/04/2022 23:34, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
I just wished the series would go into the hands of people actuallyOr just let the franchise die. As much as it pains me to say it, as
wanting to make a solid single player experience instead of selling
overpriced bits and bytes to people.
much as I love the Ultima games, but it's time has come and gone. We
should never forget its lessons but let's build on them rather than
repeat them ad infinitum.
I tend to agree, games more than other forms of entrainment are bound by technology so I wonder how you produce a game that has the feel of
Ultima while at the same time has success beyond for nostalgia reasons.
As a possible counter example, Legend of Grimrock. Now that may not use
the name Dungeon Master (a wildly successful game of its time) but yes
it really is. Looking at the sales figures it seemed to do pretty well
and at least well enough to make a sequel.
I have played it, and I did enjoy it, but I kinda think how make of that enjoyment was because it reminded my of the gold old days (IMO) of
gaming and how much was because of the gameplay itself. I can't know for
sure but I'm betting the former had a large role in it.
Ultimately though I never finished the game as it just got a bit stale
as Dungeon Master had limitations that were a product of the technology
of the time not because a game designer thought they were a good idea.
Perhaps a better example would have been "Bards Tale I" and "Dragon
Wars"? Why did the latter disappear from the market while the former
series is still revered? It's not because the developer... who happen
to be the same for both games. Certainly it's not the game itself; >personally, I think "Dragon Wars" was the far superior product. It's
the timing of the release and the marketing that played a much bigger
role... yet there is a continued belief in the 'rockstar developer'
that - I think - people like Garriot and Roberta Williams take
advantage of.
As a possible counter example, Legend of Grimrock. Now that may notThere have been many games in the veigns of dungeon master, but DM was basically just building on top of Wizardry and added a little
use the name Dungeon Master (a wildly successful game of its time) but
yes it really is. Looking at the sales figures it seemed to do pretty
well and at least well enough to make a sequel.
interaction. The real milestones more than DM were in my Opinion the
Ultima Underworlds and Albion. But DM launched tons of tile step dungeon crawlers following its example, I can give it that and it was innovative.
On 22/04/2022 09:23, Werner P. wrote:
As a possible counter example, Legend of Grimrock. Now that may notThere have been many games in the veigns of dungeon master, but DM was
use the name Dungeon Master (a wildly successful game of its time)
but yes it really is. Looking at the sales figures it seemed to do
pretty well and at least well enough to make a sequel.
basically just building on top of Wizardry and added a little
interaction. The real milestones more than DM were in my Opinion the
Ultima Underworlds and Albion. But DM launched tons of tile step
dungeon crawlers following its example, I can give it that and it was
innovative.
DM was definitely the one I remember and part of that was back in the
day most of my purchases came from walking in a shop and then doing that rather old fashion thing of browsing games and picking up one based on
the box. I spent a lot of time of both on it Chaos Strikes Back. This
was something quite therapeutic about not only have a piece of gridded
paper to map out the level but also a notebook if you found out how a
spell worked.
DM was the next step up from Bards tale, which added tiles based
Graphics on the Wizardry concept (which used vector graphics just like
the Ukltima dungeons). It added a little bit of interactivity and moving monsters to the formula. The real milestone was when Ultima Underworld
came out with its 3d movement in all directions even up and down (before castle wolfenstein 3d btw) and full interactivity in the environment,
NPCs which were lingering around with their own stories and of course
moving monsters. But even that was not the first, Albion added free 3d
first, but with less interactivity. All around the same era (1990 - 1992)
I never really got into dungeon master, went to the pc from the 8 bit
era, but I also could never really get the buzz around it. It probably
has to do that for many DM was the first real dungen crawler. I also
never could get into the hack and slash tiles movement dungeon crawler
genre at all, I tried so many times, that might play into it.
Am 22.04.22 um 19:44 schrieb JAB:
On 22/04/2022 09:23, Werner P. wrote:DM was the next step up from Bards tale, which added tiles based
As a possible counter example, Legend of Grimrock. Now that may notThere have been many games in the veigns of dungeon master, but DM
use the name Dungeon Master (a wildly successful game of its time)
but yes it really is. Looking at the sales figures it seemed to do
pretty well and at least well enough to make a sequel.
was basically just building on top of Wizardry and added a little
interaction. The real milestones more than DM were in my Opinion the
Ultima Underworlds and Albion. But DM launched tons of tile step
dungeon crawlers following its example, I can give it that and it was
innovative.
DM was definitely the one I remember and part of that was back in the
day most of my purchases came from walking in a shop and then doing
that rather old fashion thing of browsing games and picking up one
based on the box. I spent a lot of time of both on it Chaos Strikes
Back. This was something quite therapeutic about not only have a piece
of gridded paper to map out the level but also a notebook if you found
out how a spell worked.
Graphics on the Wizardry concept (which used vector graphics just like
the Ukltima dungeons). It added a little bit of interactivity and moving monsters to the formula. The real milestone was when Ultima Underworld
came out with its 3d movement in all directions even up and down (before castle wolfenstein 3d btw) and full interactivity in the environment,
NPCs which were lingering around with their own stories and of course
moving monsters. But even that was not the first, Albion added free 3d
first, but with less interactivity. All around the same era (1990 - 1992)
I never really got into dungeon master, went to the pc from the 8 bit
era, but I also could never really get the buzz around it. It probably
has to do that for many DM was the first real dungen crawler. I also
never could get into the hack and slash tiles movement dungeon crawler
genre at all, I tried so many times, that might play into it.
I didn't even realise there was a buzz around it. Unlike when I had aDungeon master was huge in the late 80s when it came out, it was one of
Speccky 48k and used to expectantly wait for the next issue of Crash
magazine I just didn't buy magazines at all and I was in that cross over period of drink and drugs was coming to the fore. Within probably a year
or so gaming had taking a complete backseat until I got a PC about ten
years later.
Am 23.04.22 um 20:19 schrieb JAB:
I didn't even realise there was a buzz around it. Unlike when I had a
Speccky 48k and used to expectantly wait for the next issue of Crash
magazine I just didn't buy magazines at all and I was in that cross over
period of drink and drugs was coming to the fore. Within probably a year
or so gaming had taking a complete backseat until I got a PC about ten
years later.
Dungeon master was huge in the late 80s when it came out, it was one of
the showcase titles of the Atari ST and also the blueprint for many tile >based first person rpgs of the early 90s.
I personally found that Alternate reality a few years earlier was way
more innovative then dungeon master, but thats a personal opinion.
Am 27.04.22 um 20:14 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:
I remember there being a lot of hype and excitement about the
"Alternate Reality" games when they were first released, but it didn't
seem to last; people were excited about the titles and then just as
quickly forgot them. Finding a copy in the stores - at least 'round my
parts - seemed near impossible too.
As far as I have read, it seems the original programmer made relatively
few money despite the games being successfull, basically Datasoft
screwed him out of the money because they could deduct 100% of the
porting costs from the money he was owed. Classical movie industry trick
they applied there, i have read about this cost strategy several times
from the movie industry screwing artists out of their money that way.
Price then left the gaming industry for good.
Personal interpretation, the series died when he left taking the license
with him or parts of the license which prevented further sequels.
I remember there being a lot of hype and excitement about the
"Alternate Reality" games when they were first released, but it didn't
seem to last; people were excited about the titles and then just as
quickly forgot them. Finding a copy in the stores - at least 'round my
parts - seemed near impossible too.
According to an interview with him Datasoft made millions on the games,Either way he worked on both games the same time, left when The City was
they sold really well, but he was offered peanuts aka a small expense compensation to hold him for sequels. He left because he was sick
earning 15.000 per year and basically having to live from a backyard
garage while they were raking in millions from Alternate Reality. He
still worked later in the gaming business but more on the military avian simulation side where he could program "games" but still made better
money. I cannot find the interview anymore but you can google it up somehwere.
Then again, even had the original Alternate Reality games beenAccording to an interview with him Datasoft made millions on the games,
profitable enough for him to keep making more games
Am 28.04.22 um 08:36 schrieb Werner P.:
According to an interview with him Datasoft made millions on the games,Either way he worked on both games the same time, left when The City was
they sold really well, but he was offered peanuts aka a small expense
compensation to hold him for sequels. He left because he was sick
earning 15.000 per year and basically having to live from a backyard
garage while they were raking in millions from Alternate Reality. He
still worked later in the gaming business but more on the military avian
simulation side where he could program "games" but still made better
money. I cannot find the interview anymore but you can google it up
somehwere.
done and the Dungeon was fairly far in progress, others picked up where
he left The Dungeon and wrapped it up as finished game, after that no
other parts came out. The interview stated that he had planned the game
as expansion game, every part expanded the original city with new
portals into new worlds hence rewriting the original city executable >slightly. In the end he wanted to have a continous portal world
consisting of the 7 parts planned and various different endings on how
you leave the planet for good.
Would not have worked out on the 8 bit versions because the line of
computers basically died for good in 1987 (85 the city was released)
might have worked out for the 16 bit ports though.
If Price has truly left the industry, it's a shame, because heWell he was an early genious who was shafted out of the industry by
probably could have pulled off his vision more easily today than back
in 1985. All the more so since 'retro' gaming is more popular than
ever.
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