In August 2013, I asked a question of this newsgroup: did you think
that games were going to get significantly better in the future? My
thesis was that - despite radical advancements in visuals and
quality-of-life features - actual gameplay of a lot of the games of
the time didn't feel fundamentally different from games of ten or even
twenty years ago. Sure, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" looked far better
than 1995's "Elder Scrolls: Arena", but was it really that different
an experience to play? Had the games matured to the point where we
just weren't going to see any significant changes in the hobby?
That question sparked a lively discussion (mostly revolving around
what 'better' meant ;-). So - with ten years under our belt - why not
ask it again, with an added caveat. Not only do I ask, 'Do you think
that games are going to get significantly better', but also, 'Do you
also think we've seen significant improvement - in gameplay, not
visuals - to modern games over the ones we were playing back in 2013?'
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in
2035? ;-)
In August 2013, I asked a question of this newsgroup: did you think
that games were going to get significantly better in the future? My
thesis was that - despite radical advancements in visuals and
quality-of-life features - actual gameplay of a lot of the games of
the time didn't feel fundamentally different from games of ten or even
twenty years ago. Sure, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" looked far better
than 1995's "Elder Scrolls: Arena", but was it really that different
an experience to play? Had the games matured to the point where we
just weren't going to see any significant changes in the hobby?
That question sparked a lively discussion (mostly revolving around
what 'better' meant ;-). So - with ten years under our belt - why not
ask it again, with an added caveat. Not only do I ask, 'Do you think
that games are going to get significantly better', but also, 'Do you
also think we've seen significant improvement - in gameplay, not
visuals - to modern games over the ones we were playing back in 2013?'
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in
2035? ;-)
In August 2013, I asked a question of this newsgroup: did you think
that games were going to get significantly better in the future? My
thesis was that - despite radical advancements in visuals and
quality-of-life features - actual gameplay of a lot of the games of
the time didn't feel fundamentally different from games of ten or even
twenty years ago. Sure, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" looked far better
than 1995's "Elder Scrolls: Arena", but was it really that different
an experience to play? Had the games matured to the point where we
just weren't going to see any significant changes in the hobby?
That question sparked a lively discussion (mostly revolving around
what 'better' meant ;-). So - with ten years under our belt - why not
ask it again, with an added caveat. Not only do I ask, 'Do you think
that games are going to get significantly better', but also, 'Do you
also think we've seen significant improvement - in gameplay, not
visuals - to modern games over the ones we were playing back in 2013?'
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we >perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
But genuinely curious what the rest of the folks here think.. Clearly
"good" gaming means different things to different people.
On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:00:18 -0400, Rin Stowleighyea alot of back catalog and with emulators like dosbox old games will
<rstowleigh@x-nospam-x.com> wrote:
But genuinely curious what the rest of the folks here think.. Clearly
"good" gaming means different things to different people.
I do NOT think games are better or worse now then they were in the
past. I prefer older games but I always believed this was just because
of my own personal preferences and not because games themselves have
gotten worse. There have always been good games and bad games. I don't
think that is ever going to change.
The biggest change I have noticed these days I think is that big
developers no longer take chances. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, because the more innovative titles have just moved over to
smaller indie devs. This is just a switch to me, not a decline. From
what I can see, there are so many types of games to choose from, you
should be able to find something that appeals to you. At least on the
PC side of things.
On 3/22/2024 9:54 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
In August 2013, I asked a question of this newsgroup: did you think
that games were going to get significantly better in the future? My
thesis was that - despite radical advancements in visuals and
quality-of-life features - actual gameplay of a lot of the games of
the time didn't feel fundamentally different from games of ten or even
twenty years ago. Sure, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" looked far better
than 1995's "Elder Scrolls: Arena", but was it really that different
an experience to play? Had the games matured to the point where we
just weren't going to see any significant changes in the hobby?
That question sparked a lively discussion (mostly revolving around
what 'better' meant ;-). So - with ten years under our belt - why not
ask it again, with an added caveat. Not only do I ask, 'Do you think
that games are going to get significantly better', but also, 'Do you
also think we've seen significant improvement - in gameplay, not
visuals - to modern games over the ones we were playing back in 2013?'
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we
perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in
2035? ;-)
Same as always. There will be good games and bad games. There's been
some significantly better games IMHO than there were. Witcher 3 feels
much better than 1 or 2 to me. CP2077 is finally a good game. Elden
Ring brought souls play to the masses (even I think it's a worse game
than my favorites.) I liked Skyrim better than Oblivion, and Oblivion
better than Morrowind, but Starfield sounded so bad I wouldn't even buy
it on steep discount. Larian came out of left field with BG3 which may
even be cleaned up and modded enough to let me play it to the end.
Meanwhile AC and FC games are cranked out mostly the same as always, and
my kids still play Roblox.
I do NOT think games are better or worse now then they were in the
past. I prefer older games but I always believed this was just because
of my own personal preferences and not because games themselves have
gotten worse. There have always been good games and bad games. I don't
think that is ever going to change.
The biggest change I have noticed these days I think is that big
developers no longer take chances. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, because the more innovative titles have just moved over to
smaller indie devs. This is just a switch to me, not a decline. From
what I can see, there are so many types of games to choose from, you
should be able to find something that appeals to you. At least on the
PC side of things.
It's not quite the wild days of the early 80s (when every idea was
new), or even the 90s (when all the ideas were being reworked) but it
feels like there is a very subtle change going on, of the sort that I
feel was largely missing throughout the early part of this century.
On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 09:05:35 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
On 23/03/2024 15:00, Mike S. wrote:
I do NOT think games are better or worse now then they were in the
past. I prefer older games but I always believed this was just because
of my own personal preferences and not because games themselves have
gotten worse. There have always been good games and bad games. I don't
think that is ever going to change.
The biggest change I have noticed these days I think is that big
developers no longer take chances. This is not necessarily a bad thing
though, because the more innovative titles have just moved over to
smaller indie devs. This is just a switch to me, not a decline. From
what I can see, there are so many types of games to choose from, you
should be able to find something that appeals to you. At least on the
PC side of things.
I think that in some ways they are better and in some worse. The big
budget space seems to have very much stagnated in terms of gameplay and
gone backwards in terms of innovative overall. As you say innovative and
risk adverse don't really go together. I'd also add that part of gaming
in this space that I think has got significantly worse is the wide scale
introduction of MTX. You want me to pay £60 for a game and then expect
me pay even more money if I want an enjoyable game experience, I think
I'll pass on that. I do remember thinking many years ago that one day we
might move from where gameplay was the core and a finical model was
attached to it (we think you'll enjoy this game so give us some money
for it) to a finical model which the gameplay was just there to support.
To me, that's now happened.
The part I very much agree with is that the innovation has just moved,
or was always there, to medium/small studios and in many ways I think
there it has improved with the range of games easily available to play.
Indeed it's possible that they tripe-A developers have done me a favour
by 'encouraging' me to explore new types of games. Is that something I
should thank Bobby 'I may look like a potato with a face draw on it but
I'm rich' Kotick?
This more or less coincides with my own thoughts.
Overall, I think that there /has/ been improvement in the industry.
Yes, the triple-A publishers are absolutely stuck in a rut; they never
take chances, prefering sequels and remakes over anything even
slightly resembling something new and unproven. And yes, the low cost-of-entry for Indies means that we are seeing a lot of clones of
existing games.
On 3/24/2024 11:15 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2024 09:05:35 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
On 23/03/2024 15:00, Mike S. wrote:
I do NOT think games are better or worse now then they were in the
past. I prefer older games but I always believed this was just because >>>> of my own personal preferences and not because games themselves have
gotten worse. There have always been good games and bad games. I don't >>>> think that is ever going to change.
The biggest change I have noticed these days I think is that big
developers no longer take chances. This is not necessarily a bad thing >>>> though, because the more innovative titles have just moved over to
smaller indie devs. This is just a switch to me, not a decline. From
what I can see, there are so many types of games to choose from, you
should be able to find something that appeals to you. At least on the
PC side of things.
I think that in some ways they are better and in some worse. The big
budget space seems to have very much stagnated in terms of gameplay and
gone backwards in terms of innovative overall. As you say innovative and >>> risk adverse don't really go together. I'd also add that part of gaming
in this space that I think has got significantly worse is the wide scale >>> introduction of MTX. You want me to pay £60 for a game and then expect
me pay even more money if I want an enjoyable game experience, I think
I'll pass on that. I do remember thinking many years ago that one day we >>> might move from where gameplay was the core and a finical model was
attached to it (we think you'll enjoy this game so give us some money
for it) to a finical model which the gameplay was just there to support. >>> To me, that's now happened.
The part I very much agree with is that the innovation has just moved,
or was always there, to medium/small studios and in many ways I think
there it has improved with the range of games easily available to play.
Indeed it's possible that they tripe-A developers have done me a favour
by 'encouraging' me to explore new types of games. Is that something I
should thank Bobby 'I may look like a potato with a face draw on it but
I'm rich' Kotick?
This more or less coincides with my own thoughts.
Overall, I think that there /has/ been improvement in the industry.
Yes, the triple-A publishers are absolutely stuck in a rut; they never
take chances, prefering sequels and remakes over anything even
slightly resembling something new and unproven. And yes, the low
cost-of-entry for Indies means that we are seeing a lot of clones of
existing games.
Sequels that are online only, often mobile, and filled with MTX. In
that regard worse. Diablo IV, Fallout '76, and others.
-Justisaur
ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'
On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 10:19:43 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
**As a side note it's one of the things that annoys me about a certain
section of gamers. The seem to think that they somehow own all of PC
games and if you don't agree with them then your opinion doesn't matter
as you're not a 'real gamer'.
But... but... I /do/ own all* PC games!
I'll graciously allow you your own opinion, however. ;-)
* well, a fairly significant fraction thereof... and I'm working on
the rest ;-)
On 3/25/2024 7:48 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 10:19:43 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:I want to see a definitive list of ALL PC games released to date....
**As a side note it's one of the things that annoys me about a certain
section of gamers. The seem to think that they somehow own all of PC
games and if you don't agree with them then your opinion doesn't matter
as you're not a 'real gamer'.
But... but... I /do/ own all* PC games!
I'll graciously allow you your own opinion, however. ;-)
* well, a fairly significant fraction thereof... and I'm working on
the rest ;-)
In August 2013, I asked a question of this newsgroup: did you think
that games were going to get significantly better in the future? My
thesis was that - despite radical advancements in visuals and
quality-of-life features - actual gameplay of a lot of the games of
the time didn't feel fundamentally different from games of ten or even
twenty years ago. Sure, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" looked far better
than 1995's "Elder Scrolls: Arena", but was it really that different
an experience to play? Had the games matured to the point where we
just weren't going to see any significant changes in the hobby?
That question sparked a lively discussion (mostly revolving around
what 'better' meant ;-). So - with ten years under our belt - why not
ask it again, with an added caveat. Not only do I ask, 'Do you think
that games are going to get significantly better', but also, 'Do you
also think we've seen significant improvement - in gameplay, not
visuals - to modern games over the ones we were playing back in 2013?'
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we >perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 10:19:43 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
**As a side note it's one of the things that annoys me about a certain
section of gamers. The seem to think that they somehow own all of PC
games and if you don't agree with them then your opinion doesn't matter
as you're not a 'real gamer'.
But... but... I /do/ own all* PC games!
I'll graciously allow you your own opinion, however. ;-)
On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 12:54:54 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
What I like is that graphics have gotten good enough that games are now choosing an art-style rather than reaching for ever more photorealism.
This affects gameplay as well as eye candy.
The way it affects play is that sometimes the point of games is now to
look around and appreciate the aesthetic. The "walking simulator" could
never have been a thing back in 2013, and now it's really coming into its own. Photo mode is justified in some games. This is because we've stopped dashing for more photorealism, taken stock of what can actually be done,
and made worlds that are very much different from what we know.
On the downside of gameplay, most games are hybrid experiences now.
There's CRPG elements. There's crafting. There's minigames. In depth
story. In everything, no matter how much it doesn't fit. Even Mortal
Combat 10 has a "story" mode and a "campaign" mode. Once something is
deemed to be a feature, it never seems to go away. I imagine this
development strategy is meant to broaden appeal, but what it does for me
is make it hard to find a game that doesn't have *some* half-assed play element that doesn't annoy me or seem out of place. It's hard to find a
game that does one thing really well, too. The diversity comes at an
expense, either in compromises to make it integrate, or just because
there is less time spent on each element.
I don't see much more innovation coming in the future though, or I'm not smart enough to see it. It seems we've made every kind of game there is. Gaming is lively, but my imagination doesn't inform me of what it'll be
like in 2035.
So gaming is good, but we've done everything we can with the classical period, moved through the baroque, arrived at the romantic, and that's
just about where music imploded. I don't know what the gaming equivalent
of 12-tone, tone poems, and prepared piano will be, but I'll bet it feels like a gimmick.
But it won't be the doldrums. It will grow, flourish, and capture our interest. It just won't be through play mechanics. I think we're done
there.
How's that for a "640KB should be enough for anyone" statement?
(I have notably left VR out of this, because I think the "year of VR" is getting to be like the "year of the Linux desktop." Vendors keep trotting
it out, but no one really knows what to do with it so it goes back in the
box until someone thinks it should come out again. Maybe someone will
figure out how to use it. I could it making a major change by 2035. I
predict it will go back in the box again once, however.)
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in
2035? 😉
Am 26.03.24 um 12:47 schrieb Werner P.:
Am 22.03.24 um 17:54 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:PS I am slowly phasing out gaming as my hobby, i frankly do not have
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we
perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in
2035? 😉
well many games like movies have become formulaic spreadsheet todo
lists in game design, the bigger a game the more likely this is to be
the case.
Add on top that we are in phase agewise where we literally have seen
everything in this area just with less sophisticated graphics.
So yes the games industry has gone the way of the movie industry,
formulaic games, indie games which try to do something new or are just
junk and from time to time a really good title which tries to break
new ground or at least does not feel formulaic, like BG3 for instance.
time for it anymore, and the have seen everything effect is big on me.
So expect to hear and read from me less and less unless I got rid of my gaming fatique!
On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 16:26:30 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Mar 2024 13:35:53 -0700, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, >>Dimensional Traveler wrote:
I want to see a definitive list of ALL PC games released to date....
https://www.mobygames.com/
Ninja'd by Zaghadka.
Wikipedia also has some lists: >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_PC_games
but - because they are broken up into subcategories - they're far less >accessible. It's a useful reference for those weirdos trying to
complete their DOS-game collection, though. It does list "Gorilla"
though, the QBasic game that came with MS-DOS which most other
compilations miss.
Less legitimately, https://www.myabandonware.com/ (and yes, it is a
naughty site, but it is a good reference too, as I've found it lists
some games - usually obscure shareware titles - that are missed
elsewhere.
But no list, I think, will ever be complete just because there was
such a wide-ranging community of shareware and freeware developers in
the 80s and 90s pumping out so many titles. Most only had the tiniest >distribution though - some never even making it out onto bulletin
boards, but only shared by passing floppies - and have since been lost
to time. So there will always be a few games missing from any list.
On 3/26/2024 4:47 AM, Werner P. wrote:
Am 26.03.24 um 12:47 schrieb Werner P.:
Am 22.03.24 um 17:54 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:PS I am slowly phasing out gaming as my hobby, i frankly do not have
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we
perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in >>>> 2035? ?
well many games like movies have become formulaic spreadsheet todo
lists in game design, the bigger a game the more likely this is to be
the case.
Add on top that we are in phase agewise where we literally have seen
everything in this area just with less sophisticated graphics.
So yes the games industry has gone the way of the movie industry,
formulaic games, indie games which try to do something new or are just
junk and from time to time a really good title which tries to break
new ground or at least does not feel formulaic, like BG3 for instance.
time for it anymore, and the have seen everything effect is big on me.
So expect to hear and read from me less and less unless I got rid of my
gaming fatique!
I feel like that to some extent, but physical limitations keep me from
doing too much else so I go back to it. However I'm also at the point I
get fatigued much quicker than I used to and can't play as much, and
faster twitch games while I can keep up with them a little typically
leave me in a state that feels like it's getting close to death's door.
My other hobby has mostly moved past me. D&D I don't like the new
rules, I can't find a group that's like the old ones, kids make it
difficult to schedule, and our last move left me with nowhere to play it
at my place.
Unfortunately that leaves me with two habits I'd really like to stop, or
at least curb considerably watching youtube and reading reddit which
just feels like waiting to die.
Am 26.03.24 um 12:47 schrieb Werner P.:
Am 22.03.24 um 17:54 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:PS I am slowly phasing out gaming as my hobby, i frankly do not have
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we
perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in
2035? 😉
well many games like movies have become formulaic spreadsheet todo lists
in game design, the bigger a game the more likely this is to be the case.
Add on top that we are in phase agewise where we literally have seen
everything in this area just with less sophisticated graphics.
So yes the games industry has gone the way of the movie industry,
formulaic games, indie games which try to do something new or are just
junk and from time to time a really good title which tries to break new
ground or at least does not feel formulaic, like BG3 for instance.
time for it anymore, and the have seen everything effect is big on me.
So expect to hear and read from me less and less unless I got rid of my gaming fatique!
On 3/26/2024 4:47 AM, Werner P. wrote:
Am 26.03.24 um 12:47 schrieb Werner P.:
Am 22.03.24 um 17:54 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:PS I am slowly phasing out gaming as my hobby, i frankly do not have
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do
you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we
perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in >>>> 2035? 😉
well many games like movies have become formulaic spreadsheet todo
lists in game design, the bigger a game the more likely this is to be
the case.
Add on top that we are in phase agewise where we literally have seen
everything in this area just with less sophisticated graphics.
So yes the games industry has gone the way of the movie industry,
formulaic games, indie games which try to do something new or are just
junk and from time to time a really good title which tries to break
new ground or at least does not feel formulaic, like BG3 for instance.
time for it anymore, and the have seen everything effect is big on me.
So expect to hear and read from me less and less unless I got rid of my
gaming fatique!
I feel like that to some extent, but physical limitations keep me from
doing too much else so I go back to it. However I'm also at the point I
get fatigued much quicker than I used to and can't play as much, and
faster twitch games while I can keep up with them a little typically
leave me in a state that feels like it's getting close to death's door.
My other hobby has mostly moved past me. D&D I don't like the new
rules, I can't find a group that's like the old ones, kids make it
difficult to schedule, and our last move left me with nowhere to play it
at my place.
Unfortunately that leaves me with two habits I'd really like to stop, or
at least curb considerably watching youtube and reading reddit which
just feels like waiting to die.
On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 07:09:16 -0700, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action, Justisaur wrote:
On 3/26/2024 4:47 AM, Werner P. wrote:
Am 26.03.24 um 12:47 schrieb Werner P.:
Am 22.03.24 um 17:54 schrieb Spalls Hurgenson:PS I am slowly phasing out gaming as my hobby, i frankly do not have
In other words, are modern games better? More advanced? More fun? Do >>>>> you think games will be better or different in the future? Or are we >>>>> perpetually stuck in the doldrums?
(And finally, do you think we'll all be around to revive this topic in >>>>> 2035? ?
well many games like movies have become formulaic spreadsheet todo
lists in game design, the bigger a game the more likely this is to be
the case.
Add on top that we are in phase agewise where we literally have seen
everything in this area just with less sophisticated graphics.
So yes the games industry has gone the way of the movie industry,
formulaic games, indie games which try to do something new or are just >>>> junk and from time to time a really good title which tries to break
new ground or at least does not feel formulaic, like BG3 for instance. >>>>
time for it anymore, and the have seen everything effect is big on me.
So expect to hear and read from me less and less unless I got rid of my
gaming fatique!
I feel like that to some extent, but physical limitations keep me from
doing too much else so I go back to it. However I'm also at the point I
get fatigued much quicker than I used to and can't play as much, and
faster twitch games while I can keep up with them a little typically
leave me in a state that feels like it's getting close to death's door.
My other hobby has mostly moved past me. D&D I don't like the new
rules, I can't find a group that's like the old ones, kids make it
difficult to schedule, and our last move left me with nowhere to play it
at my place.
Unfortunately that leaves me with two habits I'd really like to stop, or
at least curb considerably watching youtube and reading reddit which
just feels like waiting to die.
You interested in a paid game? $25 a session, Pathfinder 1e with 3.5e supplementation. Basically OP 3.5 with PF skills. Played over Roll20 and Discord. Sessions meet every other Wednesday at UTC 18:00. Next session
is April 3rd. Traditional dungeon crawl.
A good friend of mine went pro-GM a couple of years ago. He's put a lot
of work into it. Email me at my header address if you'd like to try it
out or join.
Sequels that are online only, often mobile, and filled with MTX. In
that regard worse. Diablo IV, Fallout '76, and others.
On 25/03/2024 14:23, Justisaur wrote:
Sequels that are online only, often mobile, and filled with MTX. In
that regard worse. Diablo IV, Fallout '76, and others.
The mobile gaming scene is just awful, low production values, games that
are just a rip off of a different game and as you say stuffed with MTX
and aggressive MTX at that. It's a shame really as it just crowds out
certain type of paid games which I find are more suited to my iPad than
the PC.
On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 09:04:10 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
On 25/03/2024 14:23, Justisaur wrote:
Sequels that are online only, often mobile, and filled with MTX. In
that regard worse. Diablo IV, Fallout '76, and others.
The mobile gaming scene is just awful, low production values, games that
are just a rip off of a different game and as you say stuffed with MTX
and aggressive MTX at that. It's a shame really as it just crowds out
certain type of paid games which I find are more suited to my iPad than
the PC.
Or just flat out false advertising. They'll show pictures of videos of gameplay or visuals that appear NOWHERE in the game, and aren't even
close to representative of what the game is like. It's not even the
usual 'bullshot' images that used to adorn video-game boxes. It's
showing you pictures of "FarCry 6" and then delivering "Ultima V".
There are good mobile games on the market... but they're increasingly
rare. It's a market that is best avoided entirely.
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| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (0 / 16) |
| Uptime: | 129:05:01 |
| Calls: | 6,663 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 12,212 |
| Messages: | 5,335,296 |