Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)
me too <--- timeless Usenet classic?
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
has gone out of business, I had no choice.
So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)
The free 2.8.5 version is available from:
<http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
has gone out of business, I had no choice.
So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)
The free 2.8.5 version is available from:
<http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
has gone out of business, I had no choice.
So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)
The free 2.8.5 version is available from:
<http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>
Is there any chance you will place the source code in the public domain so that others can contribute to the effort?
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
Is there any chance you will place the source code in the public domain so >> that others can contribute to the effort?
No, this is not going to happen (for a variety of reasons).
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
has gone out of business, I had no choice.
So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)
The free 2.8.5 version is available from:
<http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>
Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)
From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.comm
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: MacSOUP 2.0, an offline reader for Mac
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:42:23 -0500
Organization: Northwestern University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <j-norstad-0105961442230001@norstad.acns.nwu.edu>
References: <19960423223403683717@pppx142.berlin.snafu.de> <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: norstad.acns.nwu.edu
In article <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>,
stk@berlin.snafu.de (Stefan Kurth) wrote:
It didn't appear at info-mac yet (I don't know why). So I quickly put together a Web page for MacSOUP, and you should be able to download it
from there (hopefully...).
<http://www.inx.de/~stk/macsoup.html>
I had a chance to fetch this and look at it very briefly. I'm really impressed - it looks like a very, very nice program. Lots of great
features which my own NewsWatcher doesn't have, like offline support,
mail in addition to news, reference threading with a cool graphical
thread tree display, etc. I also like the human interface.
Check it out, people!
--
John Norstad
<mailto:j-norstad@nwu.edu>
<http://charlotte.acns.nwu.edu/jln/>
In article (Dans l'article) <1msd8eq.1bg8xojo82n6dN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote (écrivait) :
Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)
I was translating MacSOUP into French since I read this nice John
Norstad's praise:
From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.comm
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: MacSOUP 2.0, an offline reader for Mac
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:42:23 -0500
Organization: Northwestern University
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <j-norstad-0105961442230001@norstad.acns.nwu.edu>
References: <19960423223403683717@pppx142.berlin.snafu.de> <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: norstad.acns.nwu.edu
In article <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>, stk@berlin.snafu.de (Stefan Kurth) wrote:
It didn't appear at info-mac yet (I don't know why). So I quickly put together a Web page for MacSOUP, and you should be able to download it from there (hopefully...).
<http://www.inx.de/~stk/macsoup.html>
I had a chance to fetch this and look at it very briefly. I'm really impressed - it looks like a very, very nice program. Lots of great
features which my own NewsWatcher doesn't have, like offline support,
mail in addition to news, reference threading with a cool graphical
thread tree display, etc. I also like the human interface.
Check it out, people!
--
John Norstad
<mailto:j-norstad@nwu.edu>
<http://charlotte.acns.nwu.edu/jln/>
Thanks Stefan!
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.
...there are commercial readers like
HogWasher and Unison available.
On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:
...there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.
Unison is discontinued but free to download: <https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>
That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
series (which I prefer).
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of
it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.
FYI the link to the Swedish translation appears to lead to a vacant
domain.
Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
has gone out of business, I had no choice.
So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)
The free 2.8.5 version is available from:
<http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>
I'd like to join in the chorus of appreciation! I must have been using MacSoup for around 20 years now, with not the slightest inclination to change.
It's likely to last me out, too, because my Mac has also reached the end
of the line so far as OSX is concerned.
Well done, Stefan, and thank you!
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:39:19 +0100, Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote in e22ct7F11d7U1@mid.individual.net:
On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:
...there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.
Unison is discontinued but free to download: <https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>
That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
series (which I prefer).
<https://download.panic.com/unison/>
But you will probably need a license...
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)
me too <--- timeless Usenet classic?
Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
time, with no new releases for years.
I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
has gone out of business, I had no choice.
So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)
The free 2.8.5 version is available from:
<http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>
However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I
would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal
off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like
HogWasher and Unison available.
But they are not as good as MacSoup
Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
Homebrew)
However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:39:19 +0100, Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote in e22ct7F11d7U1@mid.individual.net:
On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:<https://download.panic.com/unison/>
...there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.
Unison is discontinued but free to download:
<https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>
That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
series (which I prefer).
But you will probably need a license...
No, it's on the page - unlocked download.
Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote:
No, it's on the page - unlocked download.
The download is free, but any version earlier than 2.1.10 will
eventually demand a serial number to run.
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.
It is included in the app bundle, you can open it from MacSOUP's Help
menu.
Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.
Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package
Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
to the location of your choice.
Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)
Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.
Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
to the location of your choice.
Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)
Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,
Jan
Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)
Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
[snip]
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of
these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
management is non-obvious and has to be taught.
Most users think the application contains the data file (think: where is
that document? - ah, it's in "Word"). They have no concept that the
file system contains the data files, and the application is the tool
used to work with them.
Now of course apps on iThings each contain their own file system so in general one app cannot see data files belonging to another. It's only sophisticated users who recognise this as a limitation - then only some
of them understand that this is sandboxing by design, so one app is less likely to break another.
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.
Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
to the location of your choice.
Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)
Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,
Jan
One can also Command-click the file's name in it's window's titlebar, to
get a menu showing the file's nested location. Click the surrounding
folder to open it. So no need to know about opening the contents of an
app's package. Just navigate to the file as above, and copy it from
there. That process has been possible since System 7, IIRC?
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
Also, if you really wanted to thank Stefan, you'd have bought MacSOUP
when you still could. Just sayin'... :-)
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.
Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file to the location of your choice.
Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)
Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,
Jan
One can also Command-click the file's name in it's window's titlebar, to get a menu showing the file's nested location. Click the surrounding
folder to open it. So no need to know about opening the contents of an app's package. Just navigate to the file as above, and copy it from
there. That process has been possible since System 7, IIRC?
I don't have any MacSoup in sight, just two settings files in the dock.
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
What if you don't have the basics to get at the basics?
Also, if you really wanted to thank Stefan, you'd have bought MacSOUP
when you still could. Just sayin'... :-)
I have a disagreement with Stefan over that.
He says I did,
Jan
PS Now that you mention it,
MacSoup's spyware feature got broken on my machine,
in some mysterious way. (I really didn't do it)
I wonder what will happen if I upgrade again.
Will report, if ever.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of
it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.
You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what “open” means and what makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last surviving
Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make their
source code available. All the others consider Mac support as only
an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright
*unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
out NNTP code into its own framework/library).
This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.
In article <npkfij$kse$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was> wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really arenâ•˙t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get
Signal off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers
like HogWasher and Unison available.
You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what ╲open╡ means and
what makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last
surviving Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make
their source code available. All the others consider Mac support as
only an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright *unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
out NNTP code into its own framework/library).
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
dies. Odds are itâ•˙ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.
Got an ETA?
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <npkfij$kse$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was> wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really arenâ•˙t. Had there been any viable candidates, I
would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get
Signal off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers
like HogWasher and Unison available.
You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what ╲open╡ means and
what makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last surviving Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make their source code available. All the others consider Mac support as
only an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright *unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
out NNTP code into its own framework/library).
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
That is just packaging many apps have frameworks and are put inside the
app bundle so as a use you don't see the framework.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 10:59:18 +0100, news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
wrote in 1msfh7a.17zxgz5un3mtxNMark Bestleyews{@bestley.co.uk:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I
would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal
off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like
HogWasher and Unison available.
But they are not as good as MacSoup
Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
Homebrew)
It is open source available for those that wants to make made for Mac app.
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac. Let's thank Stefan for his efforts and let him keep his name on the app and the code without whining or nagging.
Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,
On 23/08/2016 13:21, android wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 10:59:18 +0100, news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) wrote in 1msfh7a.17zxgz5un3mtxNMark Bestleyews{@bestley.co.uk:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me: >>>
For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
wrote:
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.
No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I
would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal >>>> off the ground.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like >>> HogWasher and Unison available.
But they are not as good as MacSoup
Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
Homebrew)
It is open source available for those that wants to make made for Mac app.
When someone else suggested making it open source, you said :-
There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac. Let's thank Stefan for his efforts and let him keep his name on the app and the code without whining or nagging.
Have you changed your mind now?
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.
Got an ETA?
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:
http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png
And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
away that they’re not Mac apps.
This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.
Got an ETA?
Based on past newsreader deaths, I’d say there will be a flurry of
activity as the developer tries to capitalize on the hole left by the
exit of MacSOUP. It will then become clear to them that there’s
still is no good market for Usenet clients, and so they’ll move on to
other things. Maybe a year, maybe a little more if they’re getting
enough in kickbacks from Giganews to make it worthwhile.
In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as >> hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:
http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png
Look as expected if its run under X...
And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
away that they’re not Mac apps.
Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even
uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
2k and I think that it is a Mac app.
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as >> hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:
http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png
Look as expected if its run under X...
And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most relevant standards.
And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
away that they’re not Mac apps.
Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
2k and I think that it is a Mac app.
You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
platform and lazily ported to Mac.
In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like
Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source
code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you
retorted:
"A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."
Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most
technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by
design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.
Works better than Unison...
In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a >>>> disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as >>>> hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:
http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png
Look as expected if its run under X...
And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most
relevant standards.
Never said that it was.
And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
away that they’re not Mac apps.
Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even >>> uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
2k and I think that it is a Mac app.
You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is
designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
platform and lazily ported to Mac.
I am a Mac user
and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is O'Leary wrong...
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not >>>>> dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.
No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a >>>> disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as
hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:
http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png
Look as expected if its run under X...
And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most >> relevant standards.
Never said that it was.
Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source
code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you retorted:
"A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."
Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.
And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or >>>> Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
away that they’re not Mac apps.
Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even >>> uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year >>> 2k and I think that it is a Mac app.
You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s. >> Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is
designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
platform and lazily ported to Mac.
I am a Mac user
Barely. Clearly.
and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is O'Leary wrong...
It doesn't really matter what you think - you're wrong. And you lie, contradicting yourself for all to see. Reality is slapping you in the
face, and you don't even realize it. You come off looking rather foolish
in the process. So be it.
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like
Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source >> code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you
retorted:
"A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."
Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most
technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by
design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.
Works better than Unison...
Doesn't make it a Mac app...
I'm done here. Have fun with your foolishness.
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
[snip]
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of
these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
management is non-obvious and has to be taught.
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
as a Mac app.
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps." >>
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not >>>>> dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side. >>>>No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
half-assed port. Pan doesnâ•˙t even appear to provide anything >>>> like a disk image with any sort of ╲clicklyclick╡ for the Mac,
and it sure as hell isnâ•˙t available in the App Store. I mean, >>>> the only Mac OS X screenshot they provide is from the era of the
pinstripe UI:
http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png
Look as expected if its run under X...
And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most >> relevant standards.
Never said that it was.
That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.
Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you retorted:
"A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."
Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.
Works better than Unison...
And even *then* it clearly isnâ•˙t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or >>>> Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right >>>> away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps.
Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even
uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year >>> 2k and I think that it is a Mac app.
You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s. >> Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is >> designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
platform and lazily ported to Mac.
I am a Mac user
Barely. Clearly.
How is that clear?
and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is O'Leary wrong...
It doesn't really matter what you think - you're wrong. And you lie, contradicting yourself for all to see. Reality is slapping you in the
face, and you don't even realize it. You come off looking rather foolish
in the process. So be it.
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
wrong.
PEBKAC in pirate central!
In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps." >> >>
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
It was not
On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >> >> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >> >> wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >> > as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
It was not
I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
that you've understood much of what he's said.
--android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not
Mac apps."
In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >>>>>> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps." >>>>>>
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >>>>>> wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >>>>> as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
It was not
I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
that you've understood much of what he's said.
Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
that:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>> Mac apps."
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >>>>>> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >>>>>> wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >>>>> as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
It was not
I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
that you've understood much of what he's said.
Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
that:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>> Mac apps."
You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >>>>>>>> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >>>>>>>> wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct >>>>>>> directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >>>>>>> as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
It was not
I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown >>>> that you've understood much of what he's said.
Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
that:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>>>> Mac apps."
You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.
Nahh...
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other >>>>>>>> choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary >>>>>>>> is
wrong.
Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct >>>>>>> directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as >>>>>>> well
as a Mac app.
...which was precisely Doc's point.
It was not
I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown >>>> that you've understood much of what he's said.
Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
that:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>>>> Mac apps."
You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.
Nahh...
You don't know what he meant? Ok...
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.
Bye now.
In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,[snip]
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
You don't know what he meant? Ok...
Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
on your behalf.
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.
Bye now.
That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was
finished with this thread once before, you know...
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
[snip]android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
You don't know what he meant? Ok...
Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
on your behalf.
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I
have better things to do.
Bye now.
That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...
How old are you?
In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
[snip]android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
You don't know what he meant? Ok...
Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
on your behalf.
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better
about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party
on your own. I have better things to do.
Bye now.
That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...
How old are you?
Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
[snip]android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
You don't know what he meant? Ok...
Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite on your behalf.
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better
about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party
on your own. I have better things to do.
Bye now.
That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...
How old are you?
Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp
In maturing? That's apparent.
In article <1mslwg4.b2v2wr538msfN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
[snip]android <here@there.was> wrote:
In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
You don't know what he meant? Ok...
Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
on your behalf.
But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.
Bye now.
That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...
How old are you?
Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp
In maturing? That's apparent.
My point is made...
On 24/08/2016 10:49, Graham J wrote:
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
[snip]
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a >> new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier >> in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
management is non-obvious and has to be taught.
Coming from ZX80, 81, C=64, Amiga and the like since I was 7 years old,
it was clear that storage devices contained data (tapes, disks,
whatever) and there were programs which operated on that data.
I think the drive towards modern GUI systems and especially tablet
devices is what's hiding that. These devices also have given many many
more people exposure to sophisticated computer devices, which is also a
good thing.
That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it
Works better than Unison...
I am a Mac user
Barely. Clearly.
How is that clear?
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that they’re not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
wrong.
Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:
I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for
example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more).
Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the
basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their
work.
My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might
think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to
then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus
it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download,
store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that
result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
what might as well be random actions, to them.
Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a' results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone
tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to
each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps
again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly
forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I
know I would.
Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking,
and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:
I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more).
Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their
work.
My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus
it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download,
store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
what might as well be random actions, to them.
Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a' results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone
tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to
each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I know I would.
Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking, and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.
Well said, Jamie!
In article <e28trpFj33dU2@mid.individual.net>, postmaster@127.0.0.1
says...
On 24/08/2016 10:49, Graham J wrote:
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
[snip]
I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a >> new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier >> in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.
I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
management is non-obvious and has to be taught.
Coming from ZX80, 81, C=64, Amiga and the like since I was 7 years old,
it was clear that storage devices contained data (tapes, disks,
whatever) and there were programs which operated on that data.
I think the drive towards modern GUI systems and especially tablet
devices is what's hiding that. These devices also have given many many
more people exposure to sophisticated computer devices, which is also a good thing.
Surely the uptake of Dropbox and the clear visibility of photos, spreadsheets, PDF documents etc. does at least expose that these are
objects independent of the applications used to generate, or interact
with, them.
Or perhaps not.
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.
No, you didnŐt use those *exact* words. You said it could be Ňadopted
to the MacÓ thusly:
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it
Where I come from, thatŐs not how we do adoption. We frown on even
orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.
Works better than Unison...
Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. IŐm beginning to think
youŐre a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was
buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
a Mac app.
I am a Mac user
Barely. Clearly.
How is that clear?
Here is a screenshot of your message in Signal:
http://droleary.subsume.com/Signal.png
Here it is in Thunderbird:
http://droleary.subsume.com/Thunderbird.png
If you canŐt spot the differences, you *clearly* are as much a Mac
users as you are a Windows user and a Linux user (and any other
platform they ported to).
Let me list off the obvious problems:
* The subject list doesnŐt use the standard outline view, so you
donŐt get disclosure controls for subthreads, or the standard
associated behaviors (e.g., option-click to show/hide all).
* Neither does the subject list appear to be using the system fonts.
* The tab bar at the top is nothing like standard Mac tabs.
* The toolbar in both windows is likewise not what Mac apps use.
* ThereŐs something wonky about the font of their popup menu, too.
* None of the items in that menu are Mac services. No dictionary
lookup or speech, and even the web search is not my selected provider
but rather Bing, because Microsoft pays Mozilla to degrade your Mac experience.
Many other controls in the app give a similar Ňuncanny valleyÓ
experience. The more you use Thunderbird, the more the ŇMac appÓ
illusion breaks down.
No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
But every Mac user can tell right away that theyŐre not Mac apps."
I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
wrong.
Indeed my *literal* statement was wrong, and it is now clear you
are a very sadly literal person. What qualifier would you like to
replace ŇeveryÓ? How about ŇexperiencedÓ or ŇperceptiveÓ, or maybe
just Ňintellectually honestÓ?
To be frank and hones: I
can't, even if it would save my life understand why you don't put
signal on the market!
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:
I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more). Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their work.
My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download, store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
what might as well be random actions, to them.
Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a' results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I know I would.
Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking, and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.
Well said, Jamie!
Well said, indeed.
I still like the analogy with automobiles. You've got hundreds of
millions of people who can with greater or lesser skill drive a car from
A to B. For many of them, how their machine works is "all some kind of
hazy 'magic'". Fill the tank with petrol? Amazingly, not all drivers
can. Check the air in the tyres? Fewer. Change a punctured tyre? Fewer
still. Understand why the motor-oil needs to be changed? Hold on, Henry
-- you're getting awfully theoretical now. Follow the progression:
changing the oil; being able to recognise when something is loose, and knowing how to tighten it, &c., &c., &c. The sub-set gets smaller and smaller.
'But I don't have to know those things, just to drive to the shops!'
Maybe not -- but that's precisely why we have the current situation of massive endemic automobile illiteracy, in regard to something that you
and I might think is obvious.
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
To be frank and hones: I
can't, even if it would save my life understand why you don't put
signal on the market!
Because there is *no market*.
On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.
No, you didn't use those *exact* words. You said it could be "adopted
to the Mac" thusly:
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it
Where I come from, that's not how we do adoption. We frown on even
orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.
Works better than Unison...
Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I'm beginning to think
you're a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was
buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
a Mac app.
I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you
save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not
work on Unison, I can only save article by article...
It’d be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
years that ended in its demise.
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.
No, you didn't use those *exact* words. You said it could be "adopted
to the Mac" thusly:
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
of it
Where I come from, that's not how we do adoption. We frown on even orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.
Works better than Unison...
Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I'm beginning to think you're a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
a Mac app.
I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you
save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not work on Unison, I can only save article by article...
MacSoup otoh is quite suitable for archiving purposes,
(except for the columns being too narrow,
but that is a minor quibble)
In article <1mspj7s.pl61n4wa7audN@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
android <here@there.was> wrote:
On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:
For your reference, records indicate that
android <here@there.was> wrote:
That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.
No, you didn't use those *exact* words. You said it could be "adopted to the Mac" thusly:
You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version >> of it
Where I come from, that's not how we do adoption. We frown on even orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.
Works better than Unison...
Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I'm beginning to think you're a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
a Mac app.
I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not work on Unison, I can only save article by article...
MacSoup otoh is quite suitable for archiving purposes,
(except for the columns being too narrow,
but that is a minor quibble)
Good to know. I'll have that in mind when MT-NW cease to work for me.
On 28/08/2016 18:37, Doc O'Leary wrote:
It’d be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
years that ended in its demise.
"Ben"? I assume you meant Stefan,
and it sounds like the straw that
broke the camel's back was Kagi going under.
For your reference, records indicate that
Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:
On 28/08/2016 18:37, Doc O'Leary wrote:
It'd be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
years that ended in its demise.
"Ben"? I assume you meant Stefan,
Whoops! Yes, sorry. My fingers must have been thinking of a
different Haller. :-)
and it sounds like the straw that
broke the camel's back was Kagi going under.
Payment/license processing *could* be switched if everything else
were humming along, though. Just like I'm sure there were workaround
for the loss of Open Transport that ended it for MT-Newswatcher.
It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market
is for Usenet clients on the Mac.
It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market is
for Usenet clients on the Mac.
On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:39:31 -0400, Doc O'Leary wrote
(in article <nq1s0j$cpp$1@dont-email.me>):
It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market is for Usenet clients on the Mac.
From what I can see, most of the text groups have been virtually
abandoned. A few die-hards remain, mostly trolls and their nemeses, continuing their eternal battle across multiple groups via
cross-posting as if anyone cared. Hogwasher is the only real client
left standing. I hope there is enough of a market left for Kurt to eke
out a living.
The binary groups appear to be thriving, and should continue to do so
now that torrent traffic is down due to the unremitting attacks of the
movie and music oligopolies. Look for them to step up their attacks on
the major NSP's next. I don't see much of a market for binary clients, however, as SABnzbd is excellent, free, and does everything you could
want.
Every time I participate in one of the web browser based "forums", I
reflect on what we have lost. Usenet had its faults, but was superior
to these awkward-to-use monstrosities, bloated with ads and
administered by minor tyrants. Each one is a small island whereas
usenet was a commons. Also, usenet was the "social media" of its day.
We know who has taken over that space, complete with their draconian
rules and crushing censorship. It will only get worse.
IRC is probably the last remaining "wild west", but it is so quirky to
use as to be almost inaccessible to non-hackers.
More and more I see the internet evolving into a rigidly policed,
advertising driven, propaganda machine for mind-control of the masses.
Free speech is a nice ideal but it usually means "free to say what I
agree with" in practice.
Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
2k and I think that it is a Mac app.
You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
platform and lazily ported to Mac.
Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:39:31 -0400, Doc O'Leary wrote
(in article <nq1s0j$cpp$1@dont-email.me>):
It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market is for Usenet clients on the Mac.
From what I can see, most of the text groups have been virtually
abandoned. A few die-hards remain, mostly trolls and their nemeses, continuing their eternal battle across multiple groups via
cross-posting as if anyone cared. Hogwasher is the only real client
left standing. I hope there is enough of a market left for Kurt to eke
out a living.
The binary groups appear to be thriving, and should continue to do so
now that torrent traffic is down due to the unremitting attacks of the movie and music oligopolies. Look for them to step up their attacks on
the major NSP's next. I don't see much of a market for binary clients, however, as SABnzbd is excellent, free, and does everything you could
want.
Every time I participate in one of the web browser based "forums", I reflect on what we have lost. Usenet had its faults, but was superior
to these awkward-to-use monstrosities, bloated with ads and
administered by minor tyrants. Each one is a small island whereas
usenet was a commons. Also, usenet was the "social media" of its day.
We know who has taken over that space, complete with their draconian
rules and crushing censorship. It will only get worse.
IRC is probably the last remaining "wild west", but it is so quirky to
use as to be almost inaccessible to non-hackers.
More and more I see the internet evolving into a rigidly policed, advertising driven, propaganda machine for mind-control of the masses.
Free speech is a nice ideal but it usually means "free to say what I
agree with" in practice.
Yup, Usenet was developed in a time when the early internet precepts of openness and freedom were taken seriously. You see the same thing with
other earlier protocols like IRC and good old regular email.
Web forums are indeed a faint shadow of what Usenet once was.
Sysop: | Keyop |
---|---|
Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
Users: | 286 |
Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
Uptime: | 90:41:01 |
Calls: | 6,496 |
Calls today: | 7 |
Files: | 12,100 |
Messages: | 5,277,565 |