• [ANN] MacSOUP is now free (and unsupported)

    From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to Jeroen Scheerder on Mon Aug 22 13:08:47 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jeroen Scheerder <js@xs4all.nl> wrote:

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
    decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)

    me too <--- timeless Usenet classic?

    Much timelessness. Very classic ;-)
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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  • From James C. Andrew@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Mon Aug 22 09:14:26 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-21, Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:
    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
    was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
    recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
    has gone out of business, I had no choice.

    So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
    it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
    reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
    it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
    libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)

    The free 2.8.5 version is available from:

    <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>


    There have been very, very few bits of software that I've installed
    on every Mac I've owned. MacSOUP is one of them. In fact it may be
    the only one.

    Many, many thanks for your efforts over the years.

    Jim

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  • From John Hill@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Mon Aug 22 09:17:48 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
    was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
    recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
    has gone out of business, I had no choice.

    So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
    it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
    reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
    it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
    libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)

    The free 2.8.5 version is available from:

    <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>

    I'd like to join in the chorus of appreciation! I must have been using
    MacSoup for around 20 years now, with not the slightest inclination to
    change.

    It's likely to last me out, too, because my Mac has also reached the end
    of the line so far as OSX is concerned.

    Well done, Stefan, and thank you!

    John.

    --
    Please reply to john at yclept dot wanadoo dot co dot uk.

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  • From Macker@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Mon Aug 22 11:44:31 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
    was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
    recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
    has gone out of business, I had no choice.

    So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
    it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
    reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
    it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
    libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)

    The free 2.8.5 version is available from:

    <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>

    Thanks for all the work you did, Stefan. I will use MacSOUP as long as
    it will be possible.
    Good luck!

    --
    Kind regards / Vriendelijke groet,
    Macker

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  • From Stefan Haller@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Mon Aug 22 18:41:36 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Is there any chance you will place the source code in the public domain so that others can contribute to the effort?

    No, this is not going to happen (for a variety of reasons).


    --
    Stefan Haller
    Berlin, Germany
    http://www.haller-berlin.de/

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  • From Gwynne Harper@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Mon Aug 22 19:44:41 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    Be that as it may, MacSoup was one of my first purchases for a shiny new PowerBook 3400 in 1996-sh and I never looked back.

    Thanks for the software and indeed the occasional contribution in this
    group.


    Gwynne
    --
    My real email is net, not line.

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  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Mon Aug 22 17:11:52 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-22, Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Is there any chance you will place the source code in the public domain so >> that others can contribute to the effort?

    No, this is not going to happen (for a variety of reasons).

    Okay thanks, Stefan.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

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  • From =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anders_Ekl=F6f?=@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Mon Aug 22 23:49:51 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
    was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
    recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
    has gone out of business, I had no choice.

    So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
    it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
    reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
    it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
    libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)

    The free 2.8.5 version is available from:

    <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>

    Thanks Stefan.

    FYI the linh to the Swedish translation appears to lead to a vacant
    domain.


    --
    I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines
    to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour

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  • From Jean-Pierre Kuypers@21:1/5 to jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz on Mon Aug 22 21:18:42 2016
    In article (Dans l'article) <1msd8eq.1bg8xojo82n6dN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote (écrivait) :

    Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
    decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)

    I was translating MacSOUP into French since I read this nice John
    Norstad's praise:

    From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
    Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.comm
    Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: MacSOUP 2.0, an offline reader for Mac
    Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:42:23 -0500
    Organization: Northwestern University
    Lines: 21
    Message-ID: <j-norstad-0105961442230001@norstad.acns.nwu.edu>
    References: <19960423223403683717@pppx142.berlin.snafu.de> <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: norstad.acns.nwu.edu

    In article <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>,
    stk@berlin.snafu.de (Stefan Kurth) wrote:

    It didn't appear at info-mac yet (I don't know why). So I quickly put together a Web page for MacSOUP, and you should be able to download it
    from there (hopefully...).

    <http://www.inx.de/~stk/macsoup.html>

    I had a chance to fetch this and look at it very briefly. I'm really impressed - it looks like a very, very nice program. Lots of great
    features which my own NewsWatcher doesn't have, like offline support,
    mail in addition to news, reference threading with a cool graphical
    thread tree display, etc. I also like the human interface.

    Check it out, people!

    --
    John Norstad
    <mailto:j-norstad@nwu.edu>
    <http://charlotte.acns.nwu.edu/jln/>

    Thanks Stefan!

    --
    Jean-Pierre Kuypers

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  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to Jean-Pierre Kuypers on Tue Aug 23 12:24:16 2016
    Jean-Pierre Kuypers <Kuypers@address.invalid> wrote:

    In article (Dans l'article) <1msd8eq.1bg8xojo82n6dN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote (écrivait) :

    Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
    decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)

    I was translating MacSOUP into French since I read this nice John
    Norstad's praise:

    From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
    Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.comm
    Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: MacSOUP 2.0, an offline reader for Mac
    Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 14:42:23 -0500
    Organization: Northwestern University
    Lines: 21
    Message-ID: <j-norstad-0105961442230001@norstad.acns.nwu.edu>
    References: <19960423223403683717@pppx142.berlin.snafu.de> <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>
    NNTP-Posting-Host: norstad.acns.nwu.edu

    In article <1996042718125925498@pppx172.berlin.snafu.de>, stk@berlin.snafu.de (Stefan Kurth) wrote:

    It didn't appear at info-mac yet (I don't know why). So I quickly put together a Web page for MacSOUP, and you should be able to download it from there (hopefully...).

    <http://www.inx.de/~stk/macsoup.html>

    I had a chance to fetch this and look at it very briefly. I'm really impressed - it looks like a very, very nice program. Lots of great
    features which my own NewsWatcher doesn't have, like offline support,
    mail in addition to news, reference threading with a cool graphical
    thread tree display, etc. I also like the human interface.

    Check it out, people!

    --
    John Norstad
    <mailto:j-norstad@nwu.edu>
    <http://charlotte.acns.nwu.edu/jln/>

    Thanks Stefan!

    Ha, that's a neat bit of comp.sys.mac history right there :-)
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

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  • From Doc O'Leary@21:1/5 to android on Tue Aug 23 02:01:22 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I
    would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get
    Signal off the ground.

    --
    "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
    River Tam, Trash, Firefly

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  • From android@21:1/5 to droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com on Tue Aug 23 02:25:57 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of
    it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like
    HogWasher and Unison available.
    --
    teleportation kills

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  • From Ian McCall@21:1/5 to android on Tue Aug 23 08:39:19 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:

    ...there are commercial readers like
    HogWasher and Unison available.

    Unison is discontinued but free to download: <https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>

    That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
    series (which I prefer).


    Cheers,
    Ian

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  • From android@21:1/5 to Ian McCall on Tue Aug 23 09:05:50 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:39:19 +0100, Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote in e22ct7F11d7U1@mid.individual.net:

    On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:

    ...there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.

    Unison is discontinued but free to download: <https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>

    That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
    series (which I prefer).

    <https://download.panic.com/unison/>

    But you will probably need a license...
    --
    teleportation kills

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  • From Mark Bestley@21:1/5 to android on Tue Aug 23 10:59:18 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of
    it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.

    But they are not as good as MacSoup

    Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
    Homebrew)


    --
    Mark

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  • From Stefan Haller@21:1/5 to andekl_no@saaf_spam.se on Tue Aug 23 12:04:49 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Anders Eklöf <andekl_no@saaf_spam.se> wrote:

    FYI the link to the Swedish translation appears to lead to a vacant
    domain.

    Thanks - removed.


    --
    Stefan Haller
    Berlin, Germany
    http://www.haller-berlin.de/

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  • From Mark Bestley@21:1/5 to John Hill on Tue Aug 23 11:40:40 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    John Hill <nemo@erewhon.invalid> wrote:

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
    was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
    has gone out of business, I had no choice.

    So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
    it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
    it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
    libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)

    The free 2.8.5 version is available from:

    <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>

    I'd like to join in the chorus of appreciation! I must have been using MacSoup for around 20 years now, with not the slightest inclination to change.

    It's likely to last me out, too, because my Mac has also reached the end
    of the line so far as OSX is concerned.


    Yes this was one of the apps that makes me stick with a Mac. I use
    Thunderbird for some groups that use HTML and it is not as good for
    navigation and some groups you need to be able to kill off sub threads.
    if MacSoup stops working then it does make getting a new Mac less
    likely.


    Well done, Stefan, and thank you!


    Yes thanks for the app.


    --
    Mark

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to android on Tue Aug 23 13:06:52 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:39:19 +0100, Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote in e22ct7F11d7U1@mid.individual.net:

    On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:

    ...there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.

    Unison is discontinued but free to download: <https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>

    That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
    series (which I prefer).

    Seconded.

    <https://download.panic.com/unison/>

    But you will probably need a license...

    There are ways...

    Jan

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Jeroen Scheerder on Tue Aug 23 13:06:53 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jeroen Scheerder <js@xs4all.nl> wrote:

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    Thank you Stefan for making the best, most useful, and most valuable (in terms of the extraordinary value I've gotten over the past couple
    decades for such a modest price) shareware I've ever purchased :-)

    me too <--- timeless Usenet classic?

    +1

    Jan

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  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Tue Aug 23 13:15:00 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    Well, de facto MacSOUP has been more or less unsupported for a long
    time, with no new releases for years.

    I have been meaning to stop taking money for it for years, because it
    was really not justifiable any more; but even that is work (removing the registration number mechanism from a code base that barely builds with
    recent versions of Xcode), so I never got around to it. Now that Kagi
    has gone out of business, I had no choice.

    So now, MacSOUP is free and officially unsupported. I will try to keep
    it running on new macOS versions as long as this is possible with
    reasonable effort, but if this becomes too much work, I'll stop doing
    it. (This will definitely be the case if Apple removes the Carbon
    libraries from macOS, or stops supporting 32-bit applications.)

    Thanks, from way back.

    The free 2.8.5 version is available from:

    <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>

    You are too modest in not recommending it.

    However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
    MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.

    Jan

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  • From SM@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Tue Aug 23 12:37:11 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
    MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.

    +1

    Stuart
    --
    cut that out to reply

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  • From android@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 23 12:22:57 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 10:59:18 +0100, news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
    wrote in 1msfh7a.17zxgz5un3mtxNMark Bestleyews{@bestley.co.uk:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary
    <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I
    would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal
    off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like
    HogWasher and Unison available.

    But they are not as good as MacSoup

    Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
    Homebrew)

    It is open source available for those that wants to make a made for Mac
    app.

    --
    teleportation kills





    --
    teleportation kills

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  • From Stefan Haller@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Tue Aug 23 14:19:11 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
    MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.

    It is included in the app bundle, you can open it from MacSOUP's Help
    menu.


    --
    Stefan Haller
    Berlin, Germany
    http://www.haller-berlin.de/

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  • From Ian McCall@21:1/5 to android on Tue Aug 23 16:00:07 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-23 09:05:50 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:39:19 +0100, Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote in e22ct7F11d7U1@mid.individual.net:

    On 2016-08-23 02:25:57 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:

    ...there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.

    Unison is discontinued but free to download:
    <https://panic.com/blog/the-future-of-unison/>

    That's the 2.x series. To my knowledge there's no way to get a 1.x
    series (which I prefer).

    <https://download.panic.com/unison/>

    But you will probably need a license...

    No, it's on the page - unlocked download.


    Cheers,
    Ian

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  • From Neill Massello@21:1/5 to Ian McCall on Tue Aug 23 10:35:47 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote:

    No, it's on the page - unlocked download.

    The download is free, but any version earlier than 2.1.10 will
    eventually demand a serial number to run.

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  • From Ian McCall@21:1/5 to Neill Massello on Tue Aug 23 17:39:03 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-23 16:35:47 +0000, nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) said:

    Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> wrote:

    No, it's on the page - unlocked download.

    The download is free, but any version earlier than 2.1.10 will
    eventually demand a serial number to run.

    True - it's 2.2.x that's freely available to use on that page. I still
    use 1.8.1 because I prefer it, but 2.2 is free to grab and use right
    now.

    Cheers,
    Ian

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Stefan Haller on Tue Aug 23 23:02:36 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Stefan Haller <stk.usenet@haller-berlin.de> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    However, I think you should keep the User Manual available as well.
    MacSoup has always been one of those Mac apps that -do- require a RTFM.

    It is included in the app bundle, you can open it from MacSOUP's Help
    menu.

    Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.

    Jan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Neill Massello@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Tue Aug 23 17:06:09 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.

    Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package
    Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
    to the location of your choice.

    Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in
    Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Neill Massello on Wed Aug 24 10:46:16 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.

    Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package
    Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
    to the location of your choice.

    Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)

    Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,

    Jan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Wed Aug 24 21:13:26 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.

    Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
    to the location of your choice.

    Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)

    Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,

    Jan

    One can also Command-click the file's name in it's window's titlebar, to
    get a menu showing the file's nested location. Click the surrounding
    folder to open it. So no need to know about opening the contents of an
    app's package. Just navigate to the file as above, and copy it from
    there. That process has been possible since System 7, IIRC?

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
    new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
    in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    Also, if you really wanted to thank Stefan, you'd have bought MacSOUP
    when you still could. Just sayin'... :-)

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jean-Pierre Kuypers@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Wed Aug 24 11:40:01 2016
    In article (Dans l'article) <1mshdz7.1s0avdwvchkyzN@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote (écrivait) :

    Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:
    Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)

    Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first

    Hardly a click on the (standard) Help menu to get help?
    Hardly the "Save as..." command to "Save as" an Acrobat Reader's
    document?

    OMG!

    --
    Jean-Pierre Kuypers

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Graham J@21:1/5 to Jamie Kahn Genet on Wed Aug 24 10:49:19 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

    [snip]

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
    new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
    in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of
    these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
    management is non-obvious and has to be taught.

    Most users think the application contains the data file (think: where is
    that document? - ah, it's in "Word"). They have no concept that the
    file system contains the data files, and the application is the tool
    used to work with them.

    Now of course apps on iThings each contain their own file system so in
    general one app cannot see data files belonging to another. It's only sophisticated users who recognise this as a limitation - then only some
    of them understand that this is sandboxing by design, so one app is less
    likely to break another.

    --
    Graham J

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to Graham J on Wed Aug 24 22:08:51 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Graham J <graham@invalid.com> wrote:

    Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

    [snip]

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
    in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of
    these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
    management is non-obvious and has to be taught.

    Most users think the application contains the data file (think: where is
    that document? - ah, it's in "Word"). They have no concept that the
    file system contains the data files, and the application is the tool
    used to work with them.

    Now of course apps on iThings each contain their own file system so in general one app cannot see data files belonging to another. It's only sophisticated users who recognise this as a limitation - then only some
    of them understand that this is sandboxing by design, so one app is less likely to break another.

    Well I'm self taught, so now you have :-) I never even took a formal IT
    course till Uni. I just learnt from using, exploring, and a lot of
    reading, from my first encounter with Macs at high school, on up. I'd
    used Apple II's previously at earlier schools, but it was the Mac's GUI
    that grabbed me and made me realise how powerful computing could be.

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Jamie Kahn Genet on Wed Aug 24 13:05:54 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.

    Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file
    to the location of your choice.

    Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)

    Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,

    Jan

    One can also Command-click the file's name in it's window's titlebar, to
    get a menu showing the file's nested location. Click the surrounding
    folder to open it. So no need to know about opening the contents of an
    app's package. Just navigate to the file as above, and copy it from
    there. That process has been possible since System 7, IIRC?

    I don't have any MacSoup in sight, just two settings files in the dock.

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
    new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
    in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    What if you don't have the basics to get at the basics?

    Also, if you really wanted to thank Stefan, you'd have bought MacSOUP
    when you still could. Just sayin'... :-)

    I have a disagreement with Stefan over that.
    He says I did,

    Jan

    PS Now that you mention it,
    MacSoup's spyware feature got broken on my machine,
    in some mysterious way. (I really didn't do it)
    I wonder what will happen if I upgrade again.
    Will report, if ever.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Thu Aug 25 00:49:35 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Neill Massello <nmassello@yahoo.com> wrote:

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Nevertheless, a separate .pdf file is much to be preferred, imho.

    Right-click on the MacSOUP application icon and select Show Package Contents. In the resulting wwindow, navigate to Contents/Resources/English.lproj/MacSOUP Manual.pdf and copy that file to the location of your choice.

    Or open the manual from MacSOUP's Help menu and then do a "Save As" in Preview. (Hold down the Option key while pulling Preview's File menu.)

    Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,

    Jan

    One can also Command-click the file's name in it's window's titlebar, to get a menu showing the file's nested location. Click the surrounding
    folder to open it. So no need to know about opening the contents of an app's package. Just navigate to the file as above, and copy it from
    there. That process has been possible since System 7, IIRC?

    I don't have any MacSoup in sight, just two settings files in the dock.

    What has that got to do with anything?

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
    in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    What if you don't have the basics to get at the basics?

    What are libraries? Bookstores? The internet?

    Also, if you really wanted to thank Stefan, you'd have bought MacSOUP
    when you still could. Just sayin'... :-)

    I have a disagreement with Stefan over that.
    He says I did,

    Jan

    PS Now that you mention it,
    MacSoup's spyware feature got broken on my machine,
    in some mysterious way. (I really didn't do it)
    I wonder what will happen if I upgrade again.
    Will report, if ever.

    "spyware"? :-D I'm sorry, but you don't know what spyware is if you
    think inserting a line of text into a header based on a local setting,
    is spyware.

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Doc O'Leary@21:1/5 to android on Wed Aug 24 15:47:31 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of
    it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.

    You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what “open” means and what
    makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last surviving
    Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make their
    source code available. All the others consider Mac support as only
    an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright
    *unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
    out NNTP code into its own framework/library).

    This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
    dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being
    supported, too.

    --
    "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
    River Tam, Trash, Firefly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com on Wed Aug 24 18:04:04 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <npkfij$kse$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren’t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like HogWasher and Unison available.

    You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what “open” means and what makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last surviving
    Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make their
    source code available. All the others consider Mac support as only
    an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright
    *unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
    out NNTP code into its own framework/library).

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
    dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
    dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.

    Got an ETA?
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Bestley@21:1/5 to android on Wed Aug 24 17:37:27 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <npkfij$kse$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was> wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really arenâ•˙t. Had there been any viable candidates, I would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get
    Signal off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers
    like HogWasher and Unison available.

    You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what ╲open╡ means and
    what makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last
    surviving Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make
    their source code available. All the others consider Mac support as
    only an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright *unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
    out NNTP code into its own framework/library).

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
    dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    That is just packaging many apps have frameworks and are put inside the
    app bundle so as a use you don't see the framework.

    Also you are misunderstanding what Doc is saying. Any well designed app
    in any OS should split the code into separate parts. This allows if open
    source or if closed source the development company to make use of parts
    in other apps thus making other apps cheper to write. See Omni for this
    they have shown some of what they do by putting some code out as open
    source frameworks, look inside the Contents directory and you can see a Frameworks directory containing these open source ones and other company
    ones.



    This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
    dies. Odds are itâ•˙ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.

    Got an ETA?


    --
    Mark

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Mark Bestley on Wed Aug 24 19:32:36 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <1mshxu6.11guu8ltk9ao5N%news{@bestley.co.uk>,
    news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <npkfij$kse$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was> wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really arenâ•˙t. Had there been any viable candidates, I
    would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get
    Signal off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers
    like HogWasher and Unison available.

    You seem to have a rather mixed up idea of what ╲open╡ means and
    what makes a Mac app a Mac app. Hogwasher may be (is?) the last surviving Mac Usenet client; everything else has died, and none make their source code available. All the others consider Mac support as
    only an afterthought, and some of their old source code is downright *unusable* for anyone looking to make a modern app (e.g., none factor
    out NNTP code into its own framework/library).

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    That is just packaging many apps have frameworks and are put inside the
    app bundle so as a use you don't see the framework.

    And it doesn't bother the user...
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Kennedy@21:1/5 to android on Thu Aug 25 01:54:36 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 23/08/2016 13:21, android wrote:
    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 10:59:18 +0100, news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
    wrote in 1msfh7a.17zxgz5un3mtxNMark Bestleyews{@bestley.co.uk:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary
    <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me:

    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I
    would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal
    off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like
    HogWasher and Unison available.

    But they are not as good as MacSoup

    Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
    Homebrew)

    It is open source available for those that wants to make made for Mac app.

    When someone else suggested making it open source, you said :-

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac. Let's thank Stefan for his efforts and let him keep his name on the app and the code without whining or nagging.

    Have you changed your mind now?

    --
    David Kennedy

    http://www.anindianinexile.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Neill Massello@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Wed Aug 24 19:18:56 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    Fine, but this is hardly what a newcomer to MacSoup will think of first,

    They'll go to the Help menu first. The small number of them who feel the
    need to extract the manual as a separate file will already know how or
    will figure out how or will ask how in one of the Mac newsgroups. They
    will be glad that a fairly comprehensive manual was provided and, with
    one or two exceptions, won't quibble about the method.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to David Kennedy on Thu Aug 25 05:33:28 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <O96dnXjm7M5Q3CPKnZ2dnUU78f2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
    David Kennedy <davidkennedy@nospamherethankyou.invalid> wrote:

    On 23/08/2016 13:21, android wrote:
    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 10:59:18 +0100, news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley) wrote in 1msfh7a.17zxgz5un3mtxNMark Bestleyews{@bestley.co.uk:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:01:22 +0000, Doc O'Leary
    <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote in npgapi$lf$1@dont-email.me: >>>
    For your reference, records indicate that android <here@there.was>
    wrote:

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac.

    No, there really aren't. Had there been any viable candidates, I
    would have latched on to one of them rather than trying to get Signal >>>> off the ground.

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it, Thunderbird is open source and there are commercial readers like >>> HogWasher and Unison available.

    But they are not as good as MacSoup

    Pan has been ported and can be loaded from Macports (and I assume
    Homebrew)

    It is open source available for those that wants to make made for Mac app.

    When someone else suggested making it open source, you said :-

    There are open alternatives that can be adopted to the Mac. Let's thank Stefan for his efforts and let him keep his name on the app and the code without whining or nagging.

    Have you changed your mind now?

    No.
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Doc O'Leary@21:1/5 to android on Thu Aug 25 15:56:36 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
    dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
    disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as
    hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
    screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
    Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
    away that they’re not Mac apps.

    This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader
    dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.

    Got an ETA?

    Based on past newsreader deaths, I’d say there will be a flurry of
    activity as the developer tries to capitalize on the hole left by the
    exit of MacSOUP. It will then become clear to them that there’s
    still is no good market for Usenet clients, and so they’ll move on to
    other things. Maybe a year, maybe a little more if they’re getting
    enough in kickbacks from Giganews to make it worthwhile.

    --
    "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
    River Tam, Trash, Firefly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com on Thu Aug 25 18:39:23 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
    disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    Look as expected if its run under X...

    And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
    Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
    away that they’re not Mac apps.

    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even
    uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
    2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    This is something that gets covered every time another Mac newsreader dies. Odds are it’ll be the same story when Hogwasher stops being supported, too.

    Got an ETA?

    Based on past newsreader deaths, I’d say there will be a flurry of
    activity as the developer tries to capitalize on the hole left by the
    exit of MacSOUP. It will then become clear to them that there’s
    still is no good market for Usenet clients, and so they’ll move on to
    other things. Maybe a year, maybe a little more if they’re getting
    enough in kickbacks from Giganews to make it worthwhile.

    Pure speculation on your part then. I thought that you had some insight
    in future changes of the MacOS environment...
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to android on Thu Aug 25 17:00:16 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
    dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
    disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as >> hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
    screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    Look as expected if its run under X...

    And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most relevant standards.

    And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
    Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
    away that they’re not Mac apps.

    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even
    uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
    2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
    Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
    platform and lazily ported to Mac.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu Aug 25 19:20:21 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
    dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a
    disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as >> hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
    screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    Look as expected if its run under X...

    And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most relevant standards.

    Never said that it was.

    And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
    Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
    away that they’re not Mac apps.

    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
    2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
    Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
    platform and lazily ported to Mac.

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is
    O'Leary wrong...
    --
    teleportation kills

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to android on Thu Aug 25 18:04:26 2016
    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
    app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like
    Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source
    code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you
    retorted:

    "A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."

    Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most
    technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by
    design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.

    Works better than Unison...

    Doesn't make it a Mac app...

    I'm done here. Have fun with your foolishness.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to android on Thu Aug 25 17:34:09 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not
    dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a >>>> disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as >>>> hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
    screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    Look as expected if its run under X...

    And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most
    relevant standards.

    Never said that it was.

    Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
    app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like
    Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source
    code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you retorted:

    "A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."

    Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most
    technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by
    design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.

    And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or
    Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
    away that they’re not Mac apps.

    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even >>> uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
    2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
    Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is
    designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
    platform and lazily ported to Mac.

    I am a Mac user

    Barely. Clearly.

    and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is O'Leary wrong...

    It doesn't really matter what you think - you're wrong. And you lie, contradicting yourself for all to see. Reality is slapping you in the
    face, and you don't even realize it. You come off looking rather foolish
    in the process. So be it.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu Aug 25 19:58:55 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not >>>>> dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side.

    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesn’t even appear to provide anything like a >>>> disk image with any sort of “clicklyclick” for the Mac, and it sure as
    hell isn’t available in the App Store. I mean, the only Mac OS X
    screenshot they provide is from the era of the pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    Look as expected if its run under X...

    And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most >> relevant standards.

    Never said that it was.

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
    app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source
    code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you retorted:

    "A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."

    Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.

    Works better than Unison...

    And even *then* it clearly isn’t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or >>>> Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right
    away that they’re not Mac apps.

    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even >>> uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year >>> 2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s. >> Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is
    designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
    platform and lazily ported to Mac.

    I am a Mac user

    Barely. Clearly.

    How is that clear?

    and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is O'Leary wrong...

    It doesn't really matter what you think - you're wrong. And you lie, contradicting yourself for all to see. Reality is slapping you in the
    face, and you don't even realize it. You come off looking rather foolish
    in the process. So be it.

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that they’re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.

    PEBKAC in pirate central!
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu Aug 25 20:15:05 2016
    In article <e28q9aFgs93U15@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac
    app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like
    Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source >> code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you
    retorted:

    "A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."

    Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most
    technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by
    design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.

    Works better than Unison...

    Doesn't make it a Mac app...

    I'm done here. Have fun with your foolishness.

    Sure it's a Mac app. It works on a Mac without extras and even uses the
    menus. It behaves like a Mac user would expect an app to do.

    BTW: O'Leary says that it is since I a Mac user says so!
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HarpingOn@21:1/5 to Graham J on Thu Aug 25 20:05:29 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 24/08/2016 10:49, Graham J wrote:
    Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

    [snip]

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a
    new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier
    in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of
    these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
    management is non-obvious and has to be taught.


    Coming from ZX80, 81, C=64, Amiga and the like since I was 7 years old,
    it was clear that storage devices contained data (tapes, disks,
    whatever) and there were programs which operated on that data.

    I think the drive towards modern GUI systems and especially tablet
    devices is what's hiding that. These devices also have given many many
    more people exposure to sophisticated computer devices, which is also a
    good thing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Mark Bestley on Thu Aug 25 21:16:21 2016
    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
    as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri Aug 26 04:14:14 2016
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps." >>
    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
    as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not, but it's good to se that you now recognize it as a Mac app.
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Bestley@21:1/5 to android on Thu Aug 25 21:43:33 2016
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <e28oggFgs93U14@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <npn4fk$ujo$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No confusion ahere! A Mac app starts with a clickyclick and are not >>>>> dependent on that some extra frameworks are installed on the side. >>>>
    No, a Mac app is written to work well with the OS, not just some
    half-assed port. Pan doesnâ•˙t even appear to provide anything >>>> like a disk image with any sort of ╲clicklyclick╡ for the Mac,
    and it sure as hell isnâ•˙t available in the App Store. I mean, >>>> the only Mac OS X screenshot they provide is from the era of the
    pinstripe UI:

    http://pan.rebelbase.com/screenshots/osx.png

    Look as expected if its run under X...

    And the point you're desperately avoiding is: It ain't a Mac app by most >> relevant standards.

    Never said that it was.

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    Liar. Not only do you explicitly say "I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app" below, but when Doc explained (quite correctly) that apps like Thunderbird consider Mac support as only an afterthought and have source code that is unusable for anyone looking to make a modern Mac app, you retorted:

    "A Mac app starts with a clickyclick."

    Thunderbird may start with a "clickyclick", but it's not what most technically knowledgeable people consider to be a true Mac app since by design it is a mere port with very little actual Mac feature support.

    Works better than Unison...

    Most things do - Unison is not good for reading usenet groups it might
    work for downloads but now there are much better apps dealing with .nzb
    files


    And even *then* it clearly isnâ•˙t a Mac app. Yes, we may make due
    with Eclipse or Audacity from time to time, and maybe Thunderbird or >>>> Pan if there is no other choice. But every Mac user can tell right >>>> away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps.

    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even
    uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year >>> 2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s. >> Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is >> designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
    platform and lazily ported to Mac.

    I am a Mac user

    Barely. Clearly.

    How is that clear?

    and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app, ergo is O'Leary wrong...

    It doesn't really matter what you think - you're wrong. And you lie, contradicting yourself for all to see. Reality is slapping you in the
    face, and you don't even realize it. You come off looking rather foolish
    in the process. So be it.

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.


    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
    directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
    as a Mac app.


    PEBKAC in pirate central!


    --
    Mark

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to android on Fri Aug 26 03:14:18 2016
    On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps." >> >>
    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
    directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well
    as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not

    I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
    that you've understood much of what he's said.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri Aug 26 05:21:33 2016
    In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >> >> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >> >> wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
    directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >> > as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not

    I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
    that you've understood much of what he's said.

    Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
    that:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
    choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not
    Mac apps."
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to android on Fri Aug 26 04:36:42 2016
    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >>>>>> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps." >>>>>>
    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >>>>>> wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
    directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >>>>> as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not

    I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
    that you've understood much of what he's said.

    Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
    that:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
    choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>> Mac apps."

    You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri Aug 26 06:50:34 2016
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >>>>>> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >>>>>> wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct
    directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >>>>> as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not

    I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown
    that you've understood much of what he's said.

    Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
    that:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
    choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>> Mac apps."

    You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.

    Nahh... But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to android on Fri Aug 26 05:38:43 2016
    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice. >>>>>>>> But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is >>>>>>>> wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct >>>>>>> directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as well >>>>>>> as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not

    I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown >>>> that you've understood much of what he's said.

    Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
    that:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
    choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>>>> Mac apps."

    You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.

    Nahh...

    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about
    yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Fri Aug 26 07:46:49 2016
    In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29qgaFphm4U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26, android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e295h4Fl031U1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    On 2016-08-25, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other >>>>>>>> choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary >>>>>>>> is
    wrong.

    Tecnically it is a Mac app as it is packaged and uses the correct >>>>>>> directorioes but it is a multi platform app and does not behave as >>>>>>> well
    as a Mac app.

    ...which was precisely Doc's point.

    It was not

    I doubt you are the authority on what Doc meant since you haven't shown >>>> that you've understood much of what he's said.

    Sure it was and I can read. My quote is correct and anyone can check
    that:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other
    choice. But every Mac user can tell right away that theyâ•˙re not >>>>>>> Mac apps."

    You know what he meant. Your just playing games. Boring.

    Nahh...

    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
    on your behalf.

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was
    finished with this thread once before, you know...
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to android on Fri Aug 26 20:13:30 2016
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
    on your behalf.

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was
    finished with this thread once before, you know...

    How old are you?
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jamie Kahn Genet on Fri Aug 26 10:20:27 2016
    In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
    on your behalf.

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I
    have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...

    How old are you?

    Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to android on Fri Aug 26 20:48:42 2016
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
    on your behalf.

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better
    about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party
    on your own. I have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...

    How old are you?

    Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp

    In maturing? That's apparent.
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jamie Kahn Genet on Fri Aug 26 11:14:09 2016
    In article <1mslwg4.b2v2wr538msfN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite on your behalf.

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better
    about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party
    on your own. I have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...

    How old are you?

    Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp

    In maturing? That's apparent.

    My point is made...
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to android on Sat Aug 27 02:08:57 2016
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <1mslwg4.b2v2wr538msfN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <1mslusj.rqpph61w8pab4N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <e2a2v3FraudU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:
    In article <e29vapFqikiU1@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    You don't know what he meant? Ok...

    Sure I do and I've explained why he is wrong, but I won't do a rewrite
    on your behalf.

    But if that were the case: You lost! Loser, loser and loser!!!

    I'm not here to win or lose, but whatever helps you feel better about yourself. You'll have to enjoy your little "last word" party on your own. I have better things to do.

    Bye now.

    That game was introduced by you and you lost! You said that you was finished with this thread once before, you know...

    How old are you?

    Old enough but I'm NOT interested! :-ppp

    In maturing? That's apparent.

    My point is made...

    Yeah kid, it sure has been :-)
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jeremy@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 26 16:29:00 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <e28trpFj33dU2@mid.individual.net>, postmaster@127.0.0.1
    says...

    On 24/08/2016 10:49, Graham J wrote:
    Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

    [snip]

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a >> new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier >> in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
    management is non-obvious and has to be taught.


    Coming from ZX80, 81, C=64, Amiga and the like since I was 7 years old,
    it was clear that storage devices contained data (tapes, disks,
    whatever) and there were programs which operated on that data.

    I think the drive towards modern GUI systems and especially tablet
    devices is what's hiding that. These devices also have given many many
    more people exposure to sophisticated computer devices, which is also a
    good thing.

    Surely the uptake of Dropbox and the clear visibility of photos,
    spreadsheets, PDF documents etc. does at least expose that these are
    objects independent of the applications used to generate, or interact
    with, them.

    Or perhaps not.

    --
    jeremy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Doc O'Leary@21:1/5 to android on Fri Aug 26 18:06:37 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    No, you didn’t use those *exact* words. You said it could be “adopted
    to the Mac” thusly:

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it

    Where I come from, that’s not how we do adoption. We frown on even
    orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.

    Works better than Unison...

    Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I’m beginning to think
    you’re a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was
    buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
    a Mac app.

    I am a Mac user

    Barely. Clearly.

    How is that clear?

    Here is a screenshot of your message in Signal:

    http://droleary.subsume.com/Signal.png

    Here it is in Thunderbird:

    http://droleary.subsume.com/Thunderbird.png

    If you can’t spot the differences, you *clearly* are as much a Mac
    users as you are a Windows user and a Linux user (and any other
    platform they ported to). Let me list off the obvious problems:

    * The subject list doesn’t use the standard outline view, so you
    don’t get disclosure controls for subthreads, or the standard
    associated behaviors (e.g., option-click to show/hide all).
    * Neither does the subject list appear to be using the system fonts.
    * The tab bar at the top is nothing like standard Mac tabs.
    * The toolbar in both windows is likewise not what Mac apps use.
    * There’s something wonky about the font of their popup menu, too.
    * None of the items in that menu are Mac services. No dictionary
    lookup or speech, and even the web search is not my selected provider
    but rather Bing, because Microsoft pays Mozilla to degrade your Mac
    experience.

    Many other controls in the app give a similar “uncanny valley”
    experience. The more you use Thunderbird, the more the “Mac app”
    illusion breaks down.

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that they’re not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.

    Indeed my *literal* statement was wrong, and it is now clear you
    are a very sadly literal person. What qualifier would you like to
    replace “every”? How about “experienced” or “perceptive”, or maybe just “intellectually honest”?

    --
    "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
    River Tam, Trash, Firefly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to Jamie Kahn Genet on Fri Aug 26 19:58:52 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:

    I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for
    example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more).
    Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the
    basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their
    work.

    My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might
    think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to
    then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus
    it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download,
    store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that
    result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
    what might as well be random actions, to them.

    Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a' results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone
    tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to
    each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
    wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps
    again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
    or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly
    forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I
    know I would.

    Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
    easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking,
    and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.

    Well said, Jamie!

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Henry@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Sat Aug 27 20:25:43 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:

    I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more).
    Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their
    work.

    My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus
    it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download,
    store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
    what might as well be random actions, to them.

    Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a' results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone
    tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to
    each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
    wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
    or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I know I would.

    Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
    easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking, and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.

    Well said, Jamie!

    Well said, indeed.

    I still like the analogy with automobiles. You've got hundreds of
    millions of people who can with greater or lesser skill drive a car from
    A to B. For many of them, how their machine works is "all some kind of
    hazy 'magic'". Fill the tank with petrol? Amazingly, not all drivers
    can. Check the air in the tyres? Fewer. Change a punctured tyre? Fewer
    still. Understand why the motor-oil needs to be changed? Hold on, Henry
    -- you're getting awfully theoretical now. Follow the progression:
    changing the oil; being able to recognise when something is loose, and
    knowing how to tighten it, &c., &c., &c. The sub-set gets smaller and
    smaller.

    'But I don't have to know those things, just to drive to the shops!'
    Maybe not -- but that's precisely why we have the current situation of
    massive endemic automobile illiteracy, in regard to something that you
    and I might think is obvious.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to jeremy on Sat Aug 27 07:32:59 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    jeremy <jeremy0505@gmail.com> wrote:

    In article <e28trpFj33dU2@mid.individual.net>, postmaster@127.0.0.1
    says...

    On 24/08/2016 10:49, Graham J wrote:
    Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

    [snip]

    I take your point that none of this is probably immediately obvious to a >> new user, but it's all simple file management skills that IMO all Mac
    users - not just MacSOUP users - should grasp. Life becomes a lot easier >> in the long run, when one doesn't skip the basics.

    I don't think I've ever met a self-taught user who has achieved any of these simple file management skills that you talk of. It doesn't matter whether the user is young or old, or uses a PC or a Mac - file
    management is non-obvious and has to be taught.


    Coming from ZX80, 81, C=64, Amiga and the like since I was 7 years old,
    it was clear that storage devices contained data (tapes, disks,
    whatever) and there were programs which operated on that data.

    I think the drive towards modern GUI systems and especially tablet
    devices is what's hiding that. These devices also have given many many
    more people exposure to sophisticated computer devices, which is also a good thing.

    Surely the uptake of Dropbox and the clear visibility of photos, spreadsheets, PDF documents etc. does at least expose that these are
    objects independent of the applications used to generate, or interact
    with, them.

    Or perhaps not.

    Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:

    I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for
    example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they
    insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know
    about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that
    much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more).
    Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the
    basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their
    work.

    My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might
    think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to
    then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus
    it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download,
    store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to
    happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that
    result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
    what might as well be random actions, to them.

    Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a'
    results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone
    tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to
    each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to
    remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
    wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps
    again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
    or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly
    forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I
    know I would.

    Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
    easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking,
    and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Doc O'Leary on Sun Aug 28 08:27:02 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    No, you didnŐt use those *exact* words. You said it could be Ňadopted
    to the MacÓ thusly:

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it

    Where I come from, thatŐs not how we do adoption. We frown on even
    orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.

    Works better than Unison...

    Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. IŐm beginning to think
    youŐre a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was
    buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
    a Mac app.

    I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you
    save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not
    work on Unison, I can only save article by article...

    I am a Mac user

    Barely. Clearly.

    How is that clear?

    Here is a screenshot of your message in Signal:

    http://droleary.subsume.com/Signal.png

    Here it is in Thunderbird:

    http://droleary.subsume.com/Thunderbird.png

    If you canŐt spot the differences, you *clearly* are as much a Mac
    users as you are a Windows user and a Linux user (and any other
    platform they ported to).

    Sure I can see that the UIs are different. To be frank and hones: I
    can't, even if it would save my life understand why you don't put
    signal on the market!

    Let me list off the obvious problems:

    * The subject list doesnŐt use the standard outline view, so you
    donŐt get disclosure controls for subthreads, or the standard
    associated behaviors (e.g., option-click to show/hide all).
    * Neither does the subject list appear to be using the system fonts.
    * The tab bar at the top is nothing like standard Mac tabs.
    * The toolbar in both windows is likewise not what Mac apps use.
    * ThereŐs something wonky about the font of their popup menu, too.
    * None of the items in that menu are Mac services. No dictionary
    lookup or speech, and even the web search is not my selected provider
    but rather Bing, because Microsoft pays Mozilla to degrade your Mac experience.

    Many other controls in the app give a similar Ňuncanny valleyÓ
    experience. The more you use Thunderbird, the more the ŇMac appÓ
    illusion breaks down.

    No. O'Leary said: "...Thunderbird or Pan if there is no other choice.
    But every Mac user can tell right away that theyŐre not Mac apps."

    I am a Mac user and I think that Thunderbird is a Mac app. O'Leary is
    wrong.

    Indeed my *literal* statement was wrong, and it is now clear you
    are a very sadly literal person. What qualifier would you like to
    replace ŇeveryÓ? How about ŇexperiencedÓ or ŇperceptiveÓ, or maybe
    just Ňintellectually honestÓ?

    We can agree upon the fact that you was wrong...
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Doc O'Leary@21:1/5 to android on Sun Aug 28 17:37:45 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    To be frank and hones: I
    can't, even if it would save my life understand why you don't put
    signal on the market!

    Because there is *no market*. It’s not like support for all these newsreaders has been dropping because the developers are having a
    hard time spending all the cash they’re raking in. I started
    development on Signal to test that theory for myself (and, of
    course, to always have access to a tolerable newsreader), and it’s
    pretty much proven to be true. There are a few core people who are
    still interested in Usenet, but they aren’t there in any numbers
    (1k+) to justify significant ongoing development.

    Or, to put another way, Signal *is* on the market, for anyone who
    has $50k laying around gathering dust. My original crowdfunding
    proposal still is a workable plan. In the grand scheme of things,
    it’s peanuts compared to some of the crazy VC funding that other
    social networking projects get. But nobody wants to come close to
    that by leveraging Usenet.

    It’d be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
    postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
    years that ended in its demise.

    --
    "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
    River Tam, Trash, Firefly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to Henry on Sun Aug 28 07:22:19 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Henry <henry999@eircom.net> wrote:

    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

    Some quickly and probably poorly expressed thoughts on this:

    I have encountered many people who download individual clipart, for example, and instead of storing it in a folder on their Mac or PC, they insert it into a word processing document or the like. Because they know about creating documents in applications (they were forced to learn that much, just to get something done. And then they learnt no more). Naturally they then later encounter the obvious (if you've learnt the basics) problems accessing those graphics again to use them in their work.

    My point being, far too many users fail to notice what you and I might think is obvious, because they've failed to learn the basic knowledge to then be able to interpret what they're seeing on their computer. Thus it's all some hazy kind of 'magic' - they've a goal (e.g. download, store, and then use a graphic), they know how to get certain things to happen, but they've little or no idea why they're doing the steps that result in their goal being achieved. So it's all some hazy series of
    what might as well be random actions, to them.

    Without some small understanding as to what's going on - why doing 'a' results in 'b' - it's damn hard to remember stuff. Try having someone tell you a series of a dozen things to do, that have no connection to each other (so far as you know), in order to receive a reward. Try to remember everything, and repeat it in order to gain your reward. Now
    wait a day without doing or thinking about the steps. Repeat the steps again, and you must get everything exactly right and in perfect order,
    or no reward. Now try after a week. A month. I'll wager you'll quickly forget the right steps in the right order, and fail in far less time. I know I would.

    Long story short: learning the basics makes life one hell of a lot
    easier in the long run. But humans are excellent at short term thinking, and abysmal about judging long term benefits. And so we have the current situation of massive endemic computer illiteracy.

    Well said, Jamie!

    Well said, indeed.

    I still like the analogy with automobiles. You've got hundreds of
    millions of people who can with greater or lesser skill drive a car from
    A to B. For many of them, how their machine works is "all some kind of
    hazy 'magic'". Fill the tank with petrol? Amazingly, not all drivers
    can. Check the air in the tyres? Fewer. Change a punctured tyre? Fewer
    still. Understand why the motor-oil needs to be changed? Hold on, Henry
    -- you're getting awfully theoretical now. Follow the progression:
    changing the oil; being able to recognise when something is loose, and knowing how to tighten it, &c., &c., &c. The sub-set gets smaller and smaller.

    'But I don't have to know those things, just to drive to the shops!'
    Maybe not -- but that's precisely why we have the current situation of massive endemic automobile illiteracy, in regard to something that you
    and I might think is obvious.

    For the sake of this story, you should know that I don't drive, have
    never even had a license, and lack interest in driving or cars in
    general.

    So I used to work at Shell Service Stations way back when, as a student
    in my early 20's. Now the truly scary part of that job was, that despite
    the slight irony of me working there, I would frequently encounter
    motorists who knew far less than I did about even the simple acts of
    putting petrol in their car, checking oil levels, or putting water in
    the radiator. Some of them couldn't even manage to open the flap
    covering their petrol cap, without help. On several occasions I saw the
    same sort put diesel in their petrol tanks, or vice versa. And at least
    a couple times a week during my shifts, people would drive away with the
    pump's nozzle still in their car's inlet.

    It made no sense to me then that a young man who didn't drive and was disinterested in cars, would ever know more about their basic upkeep
    than most motorists. Yet... I did, and often still do :-\

    So I fully agree with you there, Henry! :-) Computers, cars, common
    household maintenance, personal banking, cooking - you name it! It is
    amazing how intellectually uninvolved many people are in the very parts
    of their life that have _huge_ influence over our wellbeing and
    happiness. We don't all need to be experts in every field. We'd need to
    have lifespans measured in millennia for that to be true, not to mention
    the aptitude.
    But again - knowing the basics makes life easier, more productive, and
    gives us more time to do the things we enjoy. Because without basic
    knowledge, we end up doing things the hard way, or grind to a complete
    halt every time something goes wrong or the unexpected occurs.

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com on Sun Aug 28 19:45:23 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <npv7h9$8nl$1@dont-email.me>,
    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    To be frank and hones: I
    can't, even if it would save my life understand why you don't put
    signal on the market!

    Because there is *no market*.

    Oki...
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to android on Sun Aug 28 20:04:19 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    No, you didn't use those *exact* words. You said it could be "adopted
    to the Mac" thusly:

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it

    Where I come from, that's not how we do adoption. We frown on even
    orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.

    Works better than Unison...

    Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I'm beginning to think
    you're a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was
    buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
    a Mac app.

    I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you
    save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not
    work on Unison, I can only save article by article...

    MacSoup otoh is quite suitable for archiving purposes,
    (except for the columns being too narrow,
    but that is a minor quibble)

    Jan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Ridd@21:1/5 to Doc O'Leary on Sun Aug 28 19:12:49 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    On 28/08/2016 18:37, Doc O'Leary wrote:
    It’d be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
    postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
    years that ended in its demise.

    "Ben"? I assume you meant Stefan, and it sounds like the straw that
    broke the camel's back was Kagi going under.

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Sun Aug 28 20:14:02 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <1mspj7s.pl61n4wa7audN@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
    nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    No, you didn't use those *exact* words. You said it could be "adopted
    to the Mac" thusly:

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version
    of it

    Where I come from, that's not how we do adoption. We frown on even orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.

    Works better than Unison...

    Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I'm beginning to think you're a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
    a Mac app.

    I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you
    save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not work on Unison, I can only save article by article...

    MacSoup otoh is quite suitable for archiving purposes,
    (except for the columns being too narrow,
    but that is a minor quibble)

    Good to know. I'll have that in mind when MT-NW cease to work for me.
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to android on Mon Aug 29 12:49:59 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    In article <1mspj7s.pl61n4wa7audN@de-ster.xs4all.nl>,
    nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    On 2016-08-26 20:06:37 +0200, Doc O'Leary said:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    android <here@there.was> wrote:

    That screen shoot is of Pan. I have never said that Pan is a Mac app.

    No, you didn't use those *exact* words. You said it could be "adopted to the Mac" thusly:

    You could port or Pan or make a "Wine bottle" for the Windows version >> of it

    Where I come from, that's not how we do adoption. We frown on even orphans being locked in the basement and feeding them table scraps.

    Works better than Unison...

    Says the person still using MT-Newswatcher. I'm beginning to think you're a troll that I need to add to my filter list. Even if it was buggy or you hated it for some other reason, Unison was developed as
    a Mac app.

    I'm not a hater but MT-NW and Thunderbird works better. MT-NW lets you save threads under there own names, for example. That function does not work on Unison, I can only save article by article...

    MacSoup otoh is quite suitable for archiving purposes,
    (except for the columns being too narrow,
    but that is a minor quibble)

    Good to know. I'll have that in mind when MT-NW cease to work for me.

    Importing MT-NW saves into MacSoup may be a problem.
    OTOH you can probably download five years worth of uk.comp.sys.mac
    for a few cents from some commercial usenet service,
    if you would want it,

    Jan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Doc O'Leary@21:1/5 to Chris Ridd on Mon Aug 29 17:39:31 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    For your reference, records indicate that
    Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:

    On 28/08/2016 18:37, Doc O'Leary wrote:
    It’d be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
    postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
    years that ended in its demise.

    "Ben"? I assume you meant Stefan,

    Whoops! Yes, sorry. My fingers must have been thinking of a
    different Haller. :-)

    and it sounds like the straw that
    broke the camel's back was Kagi going under.

    Payment/license processing *could* be switched if everything else
    were humming along, though. Just like I’m sure there were workaround
    for the loss of Open Transport that ended it for MT-Newswatcher.
    It’d still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market
    is for Usenet clients on the Mac.

    --
    "Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
    River Tam, Trash, Firefly

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jon B@21:1/5 to Doc O'Leary on Mon Aug 29 18:50:15 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

    For your reference, records indicate that
    Chris Ridd <chrisridd@mac.com> wrote:

    On 28/08/2016 18:37, Doc O'Leary wrote:
    It'd be interesting if Ben were willing to write up a small
    postmortem on MacSOUP that discussed the path it took over the many
    years that ended in its demise.

    "Ben"? I assume you meant Stefan,

    Whoops! Yes, sorry. My fingers must have been thinking of a
    different Haller. :-)

    and it sounds like the straw that
    broke the camel's back was Kagi going under.

    Payment/license processing *could* be switched if everything else
    were humming along, though. Just like I'm sure there were workaround
    for the loss of Open Transport that ended it for MT-Newswatcher.
    It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market
    is for Usenet clients on the Mac.

    Probably the same as Usenet generally. I think the old users are hanging
    on in here, but it isn't attracting any new customers, and nowadays the involvement levels mean if it stopped working tomorrow you'd not stick
    your hand in your pocket again to make it work again.

    --
    Jon B
    Above email address IS valid.
    <http://www.bramley-computers.co.uk/>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Nelson@21:1/5 to Doc O'Leary on Tue Aug 30 05:26:13 2016
    On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:39:31 -0400, Doc O'Leary wrote
    (in article <nq1s0j$cpp$1@dont-email.me>):

    It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market is
    for Usenet clients on the Mac.

    From what I can see, most of the text groups have been virtually
    abandoned. A few die-hards remain, mostly trolls and their nemeses,
    continuing their eternal battle across multiple groups via
    cross-posting as if anyone cared. Hogwasher is the only real client
    left standing. I hope there is enough of a market left for Kurt to eke
    out a living.

    The binary groups appear to be thriving, and should continue to do so
    now that torrent traffic is down due to the unremitting attacks of the
    movie and music oligopolies. Look for them to step up their attacks on
    the major NSP's next. I don't see much of a market for binary clients, however, as SABnzbd is excellent, free, and does everything you could
    want.

    Every time I participate in one of the web browser based "forums", I
    reflect on what we have lost. Usenet had its faults, but was superior
    to these awkward-to-use monstrosities, bloated with ads and
    administered by minor tyrants. Each one is a small island whereas
    usenet was a commons. Also, usenet was the "social media" of its day.
    We know who has taken over that space, complete with their draconian
    rules and crushing censorship. It will only get worse.

    IRC is probably the last remaining "wild west", but it is so quirky to
    use as to be almost inaccessible to non-hackers.

    More and more I see the internet evolving into a rigidly policed,
    advertising driven, propaganda machine for mind-control of the masses.
    Free speech is a nice ideal but it usually means "free to say what I
    agree with" in practice.

    --
    Nelson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jamie Kahn Genet@21:1/5 to Nelson on Tue Aug 30 22:10:35 2016
    Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:39:31 -0400, Doc O'Leary wrote
    (in article <nq1s0j$cpp$1@dont-email.me>):

    It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market is for Usenet clients on the Mac.

    From what I can see, most of the text groups have been virtually
    abandoned. A few die-hards remain, mostly trolls and their nemeses, continuing their eternal battle across multiple groups via
    cross-posting as if anyone cared. Hogwasher is the only real client
    left standing. I hope there is enough of a market left for Kurt to eke
    out a living.

    The binary groups appear to be thriving, and should continue to do so
    now that torrent traffic is down due to the unremitting attacks of the
    movie and music oligopolies. Look for them to step up their attacks on
    the major NSP's next. I don't see much of a market for binary clients, however, as SABnzbd is excellent, free, and does everything you could
    want.

    Every time I participate in one of the web browser based "forums", I
    reflect on what we have lost. Usenet had its faults, but was superior
    to these awkward-to-use monstrosities, bloated with ads and
    administered by minor tyrants. Each one is a small island whereas
    usenet was a commons. Also, usenet was the "social media" of its day.
    We know who has taken over that space, complete with their draconian
    rules and crushing censorship. It will only get worse.

    IRC is probably the last remaining "wild west", but it is so quirky to
    use as to be almost inaccessible to non-hackers.

    More and more I see the internet evolving into a rigidly policed,
    advertising driven, propaganda machine for mind-control of the masses.
    Free speech is a nice ideal but it usually means "free to say what I
    agree with" in practice.

    Yup, Usenet was developed in a time when the early internet precepts of openness and freedom were taken seriously. You see the same thing with
    other earlier protocols like IRC and good old regular email.

    Web forums are indeed a faint shadow of what Usenet once was.
    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julian Gomez@21:1/5 to Jolly Roger on Thu Sep 1 23:44:36 2016
    XPost: uk.comp.sys.mac

    In article <e28mh0Fgs93U6@mid.individual.net>,
    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
    Thunderbird opens nicely without extra libraries and frameworks and even uses the menubar. I've have had Macs as my primary computers since year
    2k and I think that it is a Mac app.

    You haven't been here very long. Many of us have had Macs since the 80s.
    Many of us know the technical difference between an application that is designed for Mac and an application that was designed for some other
    platform and lazily ported to Mac.

    Absolutely. For starters, it violates the Human Interface Guidelines,
    both the ones that Apple published, and Tognazzini's https://www.amazon.com/Tog-Interface-Bruce-Tognazzini/dp/0201608421/ref=s r_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472798573&sr=8-1&keywords=bruce+tognazzini

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From android@21:1/5 to Jamie Kahn Genet on Tue Aug 30 13:22:34 2016
    In article <1mster6.899ur81404wtoN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
    jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

    Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:39:31 -0400, Doc O'Leary wrote
    (in article <nq1s0j$cpp$1@dont-email.me>):

    It'd still be interesting to get extra data on how good/bad the market is for Usenet clients on the Mac.

    From what I can see, most of the text groups have been virtually
    abandoned. A few die-hards remain, mostly trolls and their nemeses, continuing their eternal battle across multiple groups via
    cross-posting as if anyone cared. Hogwasher is the only real client
    left standing. I hope there is enough of a market left for Kurt to eke
    out a living.

    Last time I checked that out they had a very "funny" EULA. Could only be
    used in the country from there the licensed was bought! I live in Europe
    and feel very uneasy about stuff like that... It was some 15 years ago
    but it's the mindset!

    The binary groups appear to be thriving, and should continue to do so
    now that torrent traffic is down due to the unremitting attacks of the movie and music oligopolies. Look for them to step up their attacks on
    the major NSP's next. I don't see much of a market for binary clients, however, as SABnzbd is excellent, free, and does everything you could
    want.

    The all get targeted and mapped down, you know. It's not like you can be
    really anonymous even on the USENET...

    Every time I participate in one of the web browser based "forums", I reflect on what we have lost. Usenet had its faults, but was superior
    to these awkward-to-use monstrosities, bloated with ads and
    administered by minor tyrants. Each one is a small island whereas
    usenet was a commons. Also, usenet was the "social media" of its day.
    We know who has taken over that space, complete with their draconian
    rules and crushing censorship. It will only get worse.

    IRC is probably the last remaining "wild west", but it is so quirky to
    use as to be almost inaccessible to non-hackers.

    More and more I see the internet evolving into a rigidly policed, advertising driven, propaganda machine for mind-control of the masses.
    Free speech is a nice ideal but it usually means "free to say what I
    agree with" in practice.

    You will be assimilated! ;-p

    Yup, Usenet was developed in a time when the early internet precepts of openness and freedom were taken seriously. You see the same thing with
    other earlier protocols like IRC and good old regular email.

    In those days some of us thought that the content in the mail accounts
    was between the user and its ISP. Well, now the know better.

    Web forums are indeed a faint shadow of what Usenet once was.

    Indeed, but they are not all bad.
    --
    teleportation kills

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)