I am interested in obtaining an X-Mode Manual and Prime tools for
emulated X-Mode on Primos.
I am interested in obtaining an X-Mode Manual and Prime tools for
emulated X-Mode on Primos.
I sent a complete set of Primos 16 manuals to Bitsavers and most of a
set of Primos 19 manuals, probably a decade or so ago. If they don't have them online yet, ask them.
I am interested in obtaining an X-Mode Manual and Prime tools for >emulated X-Mode on Primos.
I sent a complete set of Primos 16 manuals to Bitsavers and most of aPretty much everything Al has posted, plus more scanned by others,
set of Primos 19 manuals, probably a decade or so ago. If they don't have them online yet, ask them.
is also on https://sysovl.info/reference_prime.html
But I don't think much X-mode material was in the published architecture manuals.
De
I am interested in obtaining an X-Mode Manual and Prime tools for >emulated X-Mode on Primos.
I sent a complete set of Primos 16 manuals to Bitsavers and most of a
set of Primos 19 manuals, probably a decade or so ago. If they don't have them online yet, ask them.
Pretty much everything Al has posted, plus more scanned by others,
is also on https://sysovl.info/reference_prime.html
But I don't think much X-mode material was in the published architecture >manuals.
De
Unfortunately X-Mode did not quite make into a product. When I was
laid off in 1992 they were working on a CMOS CPU that had the
microcode for X-Mode including IEEE floating point. So the latest instruction manuals were 1987. What I am looking for are internal
manuals by the compiler people or the OS people.
I had put my latest stuff on EXL tapes and this info was lost.
My older stuff was on Primos tapes and I got all of it off.
Those PETs you scanned are a really fascinating look inside an
engineering organization
The proposal to write a brand new I/O system from scratch I think did
not go anywhere, did it? Sounds a bit high risk!
What's this NSP project they keep mentioning?
I wish there were more, particularly from later in the 80s!
The proposal to write a brand new I/O system from scratch I think did
not go anywhere, did it? Sounds a bit high risk!
I am interested in obtaining an X-Mode Manual and Prime tools for
emulated X-Mode on Primos.
Thanks,
Ed Feustel
On 2/10/2023 7:25 AM, Edward Feustel wrote:
I am interested in obtaining an X-Mode Manual and Prime tools for
emulated X-Mode on Primos.
Thanks,
Ed Feustel
Why does your name look so familiar? Did you attend the Orlando
PUG Conference back in the day?
bill
Ed,
Unfortunately X-Mode did not quite make into a product. When I was
laid off in 1992 they were working on a CMOS CPU that had the
microcode for X-Mode including IEEE floating point. So the latest instruction manuals were 1987. What I am looking for are internal
manuals by the compiler people or the OS people.
That's about what I was remembering. I assume there were PETs for the >architectural changes, and for software support of same?
The latest scans I have are 1987, and I don't think I have any paper
that's newer, though that could be buried in a stack somewhere easily
enough. But there's at least a DOC9473-3LA that's later than that 1987 >Rev.21 edition.
I would dearly love it if Dons Slutz or Koch (or any other engineers, I
just pick on them because I know that as of fairly recently they were
still around in MA, and one of them had an annual bbq) had paper or
media in their possession and could share it to the preservation
community.
IIRC your paper materials went to a university collection. Rice?
Babbaage?
I had put my latest stuff on EXL tapes and this info was lost.
My older stuff was on Primos tapes and I got all of it off.
Are the tapes destroyed, or you just don't have a mechanism for reading
them? If the latter, I think we can find a solution.
I should probbably mention that there are two 50-Series emulators, both
on github, in case you weren't aware.
De
I sent my tanberg tape reader and three copies of my prime exl tapes
to Don Koch who was unable to access the material. He may still have
the tapes. If you had access to an EXL with the tapes, I would see
if he still has the tapes. There is a good deal of material I would
like to retrieve from them. I wish I had copied all of it over to
the Primos Side. Those archives all survived 100%.
I sent my tanberg tape reader and three copies of my prime exl tapesEd,
to Don Koch who was unable to access the material. He may still have
the tapes. If you had access to an EXL with the tapes, I would see
if he still has the tapes. There is a good deal of material I would
like to retrieve from them. I wish I had copied all of it over to
the Primos Side. Those archives all survived 100%.
A couple of thoughts:
1. I'm pretty sure there's no need for an actual EXL to read the tapes. There may be some work needed with the raw images to sort out a blocking scheme or similar. The 50-Series cart drive controllers wrapped
arbitrary sized host data blocks to store them on the QIC 512-byte fixed blocks, for example. But data massaging of that sort usually isn't _too_ hard.
Bill,
I am not certain where we might have met.
I started at Prime in December 1980 as a Senior Research Consultant
under Bob Gordon.
I spent time in OS working on Prime Unix.
I spent time under Len Halio working on debugging EXL terminal I/O
as a Senior Technicl Consultant in Milford
I worked for Walter Jones first in CPU and then as a Principal
Technical Consultant on his staff when he was VP of Engineering.
I was laid off in 1992.
I went to work for IDA in Alexandria VA and spent an inordinate amount
of time in Orlando working on simulation architecture. Perhaps I met
you there post=Prime.
On 2/15/2023 8:34 AM, Edward Feustel wrote:
Bill,
I am not certain where we might have met.
I started at Prime in December 1980 as a Senior Research Consultant
under Bob Gordon.
I worked with Prime 50 Series at USMA/West Point. First while still
in the Army and then for a short while with Martin Marietta as a DOD >contractor. Sadly, my work with Primes ended around 1985 except for
the 2250 I had at home. :-)
I spent time in OS working on Prime Unix.
We beta-tested Primix but I was most interested in the work that
Bill Lenhart did up in NH. Sad that it never got released into
the wild.
I spent time under Len Halio working on debugging EXL terminal I/O
as a Senior Technicl Consultant in Milford
I worked for Walter Jones first in CPU and then as a Principal
Technical Consultant on his staff when he was VP of Engineering.
I was laid off in 1992.
I went to work for IDA in Alexandria VA and spent an inordinate amount
of time in Orlando working on simulation architecture. Perhaps I met
you there post=Prime.
My last trip to Orlando (not Prime related) was to the Martin Marietta >facility around 85-86. By 88 I was out of the government work and into' >academia where I spent the rest of my career (other than my military
time as I returned to part-time service in the Guard and Reserves as
an IT Warrant Officer).
Oh well, maybe we never met and I only know you from here. Mind isn't
as clear as it used to be. :-)
bill
On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 12:43:44 PM UTC-5, Dennis Boone wrote:have been added, strip all that out, and for Magsav tapes, run it through the emulator version of magrst, which doesn't care about physical tape records. I'm assuming the EXL wrote tar tapes, so you might have to grab a copy of tar and hack it a bit.
I sent my tanberg tape reader and three copies of my prime exl tapesEd,
to Don Koch who was unable to access the material. He may still have
the tapes. If you had access to an EXL with the tapes, I would see
if he still has the tapes. There is a good deal of material I would
like to retrieve from them. I wish I had copied all of it over to
the Primos Side. Those archives all survived 100%.
A couple of thoughts:
1. I'm pretty sure there's no need for an actual EXL to read the tapes.
There may be some work needed with the raw images to sort out a blocking
scheme or similar. The 50-Series cart drive controllers wrapped
arbitrary sized host data blocks to store them on the QIC 512-byte fixed
blocks, for example. But data massaging of that sort usually isn't _too_
hard.
I've done this before with weird tapes and it's not too hard. Someone sent me some tapes from a power company that were on weird cartridges. Dennis is right that it's a 2-step process: read raw tape blocks, figure out what kind of blocking and headers
I no longer have any tape gear, but if someone can read the tapes with mtread (an emulator utility program that reads a raw tape), I will help decipher it.
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for your work on the emulators which obviously don't do
X-Mode.
Perhaps it was related to Software Tools, the programming language
Icon, or Guy Almes.
The EXL tapes are cartridge tapes. The tape units had a modification
that allowed a blocksize larger than standard cartridge tapes. I had
bought a tandberg tape unit with a modified block size. But it had
a bad loading problem that tended to destroy the tapes (as reported
by Don. It would have to be an EXL cartridge unit or one that could
read 1040 byte records (as I remember the byte size).
The EXL tapes are cartridge tapes. The tape units had a modificationEd,
that allowed a blocksize larger than standard cartridge tapes. I had bought a tandberg tape unit with a modified block size. But it had
a bad loading problem that tended to destroy the tapes (as reported
by Don. It would have to be an EXL cartridge unit or one that could
read 1040 byte records (as I remember the byte size).
Are you _ABSOLUTELY SURE_ it was the tape units themselves, not the controllers? Because on the 50-Series side, I'm pretty sure it was the controllers that did the blocking magic. I've read PRIMOS distribution
tapes from QIC carts with unmodified drives, and done the deblocking of
this scheme. The 50-Series disks, after the early period, used 1040
_word_ disk sector size, with 1024 data words and 16 file system
overhead words as a header. PRIMOS, having grown up with half inch
7-track and 9-track reel tapes, was accustomed to being having variable on-tape block sizes as large as the available Ring-0 buffer could hold.
The easiest path to getting MAG* and other software to work was, I
presume, to get the controllers to present 512 fixed to the drive and
longer variable to the host.
It seems extremely odd that a unix system would depend on such modified drives and unusual (for unix) block size.
There are known issues with the little rubber bands in the QIC carts,
for example, that also have known workarounds. And rubber wheels in the drive train of such mechanisms also get gooey. Some brands worse than others, and some folks have had this sort of wheel rebuilt.
I still think it'd be worth at least talking to Chuck Guzis about these tapes. If there's shareable 50-Series stuff on the tapes, I'd be
willing to help cover the cost.
De
Jim,
The EXL tapes are cartridge tapes. The tape units had a modification
that allowed a blocksize larger than standard cartridge tapes. I had
bought a tandberg tape unit with a modified block size. But it had
a bad loading problem that tended to destroy the tapes (as reported
by Don. It would have to be an EXL cartridge unit or one that could
read 1040 byte records (as I remember the byte size).
Prime was famous for convincing customers that the hardware they sold
was somehow "enhanced", to prevent customers from using off-the-shelf products. For example, their 8mm drive was way more expensive than
buying one from Exabyte, but only the Prime 8mm drive would work on a
Prime system. However, I bought a regular 8mm drive on eBay, hooked it
up to a PC SCSI controller, and could read old Prime 8mm tapes just
fine.
On 2/17/2023 5:55 AM, Edward Feustel wrote:
Perhaps it was related to Software Tools, the programming language
Icon, or Guy Almes.
If you were involved in STUG that was probably the place. Although
I never got to go to any of their get-togethers. I was very interested
in STVOS and still am today although the users group meetings are pretty >lonely with only me there.
I always enjoy pointing out to people that POSIX is nothing but STVOS
warmed over and served badly. Think what it could be doing today if
it hadn't been abandoned only to be restarted from the very beginning
decades later.
bill
The EXL tapes are cartridge tapes. The tape units had a modification
that allowed a blocksize larger than standard cartridge tapes. I had
bought a tandberg tape unit with a modified block size. But it had
a bad loading problem that tended to destroy the tapes (as reported
by Don. It would have to be an EXL cartridge unit or one that could
read 1040 byte records (as I remember the byte size).
Ed,
Are you _ABSOLUTELY SURE_ it was the tape units themselves, not the >controllers? Because on the 50-Series side, I'm pretty sure it was the >controllers that did the blocking magic. I've read PRIMOS distribution
tapes from QIC carts with unmodified drives, and done the deblocking of
this scheme. The 50-Series disks, after the early period, used 1040
_word_ disk sector size, with 1024 data words and 16 file system
overhead words as a header. PRIMOS, having grown up with half inch
7-track and 9-track reel tapes, was accustomed to being having variable >on-tape block sizes as large as the available Ring-0 buffer could hold.
The easiest path to getting MAG* and other software to work was, I
presume, to get the controllers to present 512 fixed to the drive and
longer variable to the host.
It seems extremely odd that a unix system would depend on such modified >drives and unusual (for unix) block size.
There are known issues with the little rubber bands in the QIC carts,
for example, that also have known workarounds. And rubber wheels in the >drive train of such mechanisms also get gooey. Some brands worse than >others, and some folks have had this sort of wheel rebuilt.
I still think it'd be worth at least talking to Chuck Guzis about these >tapes. If there's shareable 50-Series stuff on the tapes, I'd be
willing to help cover the cost.
De
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