Just out from Matrix. It's a stablemate of Pike and Shot, which I don't
own, but have heard good things about. I've been thinking about picking
up both of these titles. I've never games the P&S period before, but it
might be interesting. As for the Segoku period, I've never played that
outside of the TW series, so it would be nice to see a more...plausible treatment.

As an aside, I've never understood "the push of pike", I get it as far
as ancient phalanx warfare goes, where each pikeman had a shield to ward
off enemy thrusts, but in the pike and shot period, the shields were
gone. The pikes look too long and unweildy to parry thrusts with, so it
seems that two bodies of pikemen coming together must have been mutual slaughter. Except it wasn't, so how did it work?

This portrayal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26C758K4Fc0#t=102 looks interesting, but I still don't get why the first ranks aren't going down
almost immediately, and the ranks behind after that. I suppose the
cuirasses could be deflecting pike thrusts, especially if they're there
two sides are coming together slowly. Anyway, it's a movie portrayal so
not necessarily to be trusted...

Holdit
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In article <MPG.31a8d2af8093b8f8989714@news-europe.giganews.com>, holditREMOVE@indigoTHECAPS.i says...

Forgot the links:

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/603/details/Sengoku.Jidai:.Shadow.of .the.Shogun.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/397190

Holdit
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On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 9:52:59 AM UTC+2, Holdit wrote:

As an aside, I've never understood "the push of pike", I get it as far
as ancient phalanx warfare goes, where each pikeman had a shield to ward
off enemy thrusts, but in the pike and shot period, the shields were
gone. The pikes look too long and unweildy to parry thrusts with, so it seems that two bodies of pikemen coming together must have been mutual slaughter. Except it wasn't, so how did it work?

The thing is that they didn't come together - not all the way :)

It depended a bit on the period and even the nationality but the "pike units" were far from uniform and were in fact combined warfare groups. Muskets were recognized as the powerful new warfare toy, but totally unreliable at over 100 feet so they needed
to be close to their target and with a clear LOF (*), but this also meant that they could be overrun by both cavalry and guys with swords and/or pikes. So they needed pikes of their own to protect them hedgehog style.

So mixed units of muskets and pikes (and sometimes guys with swords and bucklers) became a feature of 16th century battlefields. The muskets (and sword guys) would try to cause chaos in the opposing block at which point a good "shove" with the pikes
could send the opposition running. It was all timing. The ratio of shot to pike was heavily debated and changed over time - and then there were the Swedes who introduced small cannon into the pike mix etc. The final evolution was when some smart-ass
thought about putting pikes at the end of the muskets - calling them bayonets for copyright purposes :) - which signalled the end of the pikemen.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(*) note that their medieval predecessor - the longbow - could shoot at a distance, didn't need a clear LOF and could ward off charges by hammering in poles into the ground. This sounds like muskets were a step backward, and in a sense they were except
that you could train John Farmboy to fire a musket in half a day whereas effectively using the longbow required lots of training and practice.
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In article <77fd8db7-a6ec-41cf-a399-b990c155beb4@googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

It depended a bit on the period and even the nationality but the "pike units" were far from uniform and were in fact combined warfare groups. Muskets were recognized as the powerful new warfare toy, but totally unreliable at over 100 feet so they

needed to be close to their target and with a clear LOF (*), but this also meant that they could be overrun by both cavalry and guys with swords and/or pikes. So they needed pikes of their own to protect them hedgehog style.


This was always my understanding; pikemen were deployed to form a
defensive wall that cavalry would avoid like the plague.

Even an ahistorical film like BRAVEHEART got this!

--
Giftzwerg
***
"BREAKING: Treasury throws founder of the Democratic
Party off $20 bill, replaces with gun-toting, bible -
thumping Republican."
- David Burge
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Pike & Shot is a really nice game, and Richard is a first-class character. You could talk with him about this stuff non-stop for _days_.
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On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:18:46 AM UTC+2, Giftzwerg wrote:

In article <77fd8db7-a6ec-41cf-a399-b990c155beb4@googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

It depended a bit on the period and even the nationality but the "pike units" were far from uniform and were in fact combined warfare groups. Muskets were recognized as the powerful new warfare toy, but totally unreliable at over 100 feet so they

needed to be close to their target and with a clear LOF (*), but this also meant that they could be overrun by both cavalry and guys with swords and/or pikes. So they needed pikes of their own to protect them hedgehog style.

This was always my understanding; pikemen were deployed to form a
defensive wall that cavalry would avoid like the plague.

Miniature rulesets of that period usually don't even let cavalry units charge the front of a pike unit. It's a different story with flank and rear attacks - pike units were incredibly vulnerable to that as "forming square" wasn't invented yet. The age of
linear warfare was exactly that : don't present a flank to the enemy by having a continuous line.

The 16th century also saw an attempt to integrate firepower in the cavalry - with strange weird tactical use of cavalry as a result - google "caracole" for more info on that.

It's a weird period to play, with some counter-intuitive national characteristics too. Who'd think that at the time Spanish units were considered very steady and reliable while German units were chaotic. That Swedish units would charge every chance they
got while Russians were stoic fire-heavy units.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
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On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 10:28:05 AM UTC+1, eddys...@hotmail.com wrote:

It's a weird period to play, with some counter-intuitive national characteristics too. Who'd think that at the time Spanish units were considered very steady and reliable while German units were chaotic.

Just goes to show that it's the training, equipment, leadership, food and pay that matter much more than nationality.

This guy has an interesting take on how pike v pike warfare worked...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbhANeJL_T4
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