• Posting on my LC 475, What are you running?

    From denodster@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 6 04:25:03 2021
    Posting on my LC 475 running Internews. This is my first time on Usenet
    and I'm thrilled to find this group. Running system 7.6.1 and MacIP via
    an old cisco router. It's been a fun project and I'm thrilled to get to
    use it like this.

    What kind of hardware are you all running? and how did you get it
    online?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jolly Roger@21:1/5 to denodster on Sat Nov 6 16:36:05 2021
    On 2021-11-06, denodster <denodster@gmail.com> wrote:
    Posting on my LC 475 running Internews. This is my first time on
    Usenet and I'm thrilled to find this group. Running system 7.6.1 and
    MacIP via an old cisco router. It's been a fun project and I'm
    thrilled to get to use it like this.

    Nice! I still have an LC 475 in the closet here. Love that pizza box
    case... : )

    What kind of hardware are you all running? and how did you get it
    online?

    My oldest Mac is a Mac SE/30 which was originally purchased by my father
    in the late 1980s. It was our first Mac. All of our other computers at
    the time ran their own specific command-line operating system with no
    graphical interface or mouse - just ugly text on an ugly screen. Home Computers back then either used tape drives for storage or had floppy
    drives with their own flavor of DOS.

    The Mac we brought home was completely different. It was relatively
    small compared to most computers of the time, was self-contained
    (screen, CPU, floppy drive, etc were all housed in the case) and could
    be carried with one hand. And unlike most, not only did it come with a
    mouse, but the mouse was actually *required* to use it.

    It completely changed the way I looked at computers for the better. And
    while I was very much into programming our trusty TRS-80s in Basic and
    Zilog assembly, the Mac with an OS geared from the ground up to be
    driven by the GUI, along with Apple’s rich APIs and Pascal / 68k
    assembly programming languages immediately took my attention and
    opened new worlds to me. And the Mac SE/30 was pretty fast for a
    computer at that time - hence the name. : )

    Zippy is old, but still runs fine. I've replaced the cooling fan,
    upgraded the RAM, and replaced the hard drive over the years. But other
    than that, the hardware all original. It's currently running system
    7.5.5, has an Asante MacCon 10 megabit Ethernet card installed in the
    PDS expansion slot for internet connectivity, and runs the MacHTTP web
    server full time, hosting a little website:

    <http://zippy.kicks-ass.org:9997>

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Denodster@21:1/5 to jollyroger@pobox.com on Sat Nov 6 21:27:41 2021
    In article <iunp7lF31drU1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Nice! I still have an LC 475 in the closet here. Love that pizza box
    case... : )


    One of my favorite computer designs, It's too bad the only way to get a
    PPC is to find one of those elusive upgrades. Unfortunately mine has come plastic damage, maybe I'll acquire a non-working one at some point.


    My oldest Mac is a Mac SE/30 which was originally purchased by my father
    in the late 1980s. It was our first Mac. All of our other computers at
    the time ran their own specific command-line operating system with no graphical interface or mouse - just ugly text on an ugly screen. Home Computers back then either used tape drives for storage or had floppy
    drives with their own flavor of DOS.

    The Mac we brought home was completely different. It was relatively
    small compared to most computers of the time, was self-contained
    (screen, CPU, floppy drive, etc were all housed in the case) and could
    be carried with one hand. And unlike most, not only did it come with a
    mouse, but the mouse was actually *required* to use it.

    It completely changed the way I looked at computers for the better. And
    while I was very much into programming our trusty TRS-80s in Basic and
    Zilog assembly, the Mac with an OS geared from the ground up to be
    driven by the GUI, along with Apple’s rich APIs and Pascal / 68k
    assembly programming languages immediately took my attention and
    opened new worlds to me. And the Mac SE/30 was pretty fast for a
    computer at that time - hence the name. : )


    My first mac was a IIcx that my dad acquired at a surplus auction, with a portrait monitor. I remember being floored that it didn't have any
    scrolling text or command line the first time I booted it up. Apple was
    truly thinking different with these machines. As much as I believe they
    made the right decision with Unix being the basis of OS X, I can't help
    but feel like something was lost the day they added a terminal to the Mac.

    I've recently acquired Inside Macintosh Volumes 1-6 and I've been trying
    to think up a project I would like to work on. Web development is my day
    job and I know how to program in C, so I think I could come up with some classic mac apps.

    Zippy is old, but still runs fine. I've replaced the cooling fan,
    upgraded the RAM, and replaced the hard drive over the years. But other
    than that, the hardware all original. It's currently running system
    7.5.5, has an Asante MacCon 10 megabit Ethernet card installed in the
    PDS expansion slot for internet connectivity, and runs the MacHTTP web
    server full time, hosting a little website:

    <http://zippy.kicks-ass.org:9997>

    Love the website, it works pretty well on my LC 475, good work!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Denodster on Sun Nov 7 14:53:25 2021
    On 2021-11-07 01:27:41 +0000, Denodster said:
    In article <iunp7lF31drU1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

    Nice! I still have an LC 475 in the closet here. Love that pizza box
    case... : )

    One of my favorite computer designs,

    Yep, a great case design from when Apple actually allowed people to
    upgrade their computers ... just pop the lid, no screws to bother with.
    It's basically a more flattened copy of the old Apple II design.



    It's too bad the only way to get a PPC is to find one of those elusive upgrades. Unfortunately mine has come plastic damage, maybe I'll
    acquire a non-working one at some point.

    If you've got a good condition case, you could always put a Mac Mini
    into it and have an Intel or Apple Silicon Mac ... it still wouldn't of
    course have expansion possibilities anywhere close to those old Macs.
    :-(



    My oldest Mac is a Mac SE/30 which was originally purchased by my father
    in the late 1980s. It was our first Mac. All of our other computers at
    the time ran their own specific command-line operating system with no
    graphical interface or mouse - just ugly text on an ugly screen. Home
    Computers back then either used tape drives for storage or had floppy
    drives with their own flavor of DOS.

    The Mac we brought home was completely different. It was relatively
    small compared to most computers of the time, was self-contained
    (screen, CPU, floppy drive, etc were all housed in the case) and could
    be carried with one hand. And unlike most, not only did it come with a
    mouse, but the mouse was actually *required* to use it.

    It completely changed the way I looked at computers for the better. And
    while I was very much into programming our trusty TRS-80s in Basic and
    Zilog assembly, the Mac with an OS geared from the ground up to be
    driven by the GUI, along with Apple’s rich APIs and Pascal / 68k
    assembly programming languages immediately took my attention and
    opened new worlds to me. And the Mac SE/30 was pretty fast for a
    computer at that time - hence the name. : )

    My first mac was a IIcx that my dad acquired at a surplus auction, with a portrait monitor. I remember being floored that it didn't have any
    scrolling text or command line the first time I booted it up. Apple was
    truly thinking different with these machines. As much as I believe they
    made the right decision with Unix being the basis of OS X, I can't help
    but feel like something was lost the day they added a terminal to the Mac.

    I've recently acquired Inside Macintosh Volumes 1-6 and I've been trying
    to think up a project I would like to work on. Web development is my day
    job and I know how to program in C, so I think I could come up with some classic mac apps.

    Depending on which version of Classic Mac OS you're aiming at, Pascal
    can be a option bet than C.



    Zippy is old, but still runs fine. I've replaced the cooling fan,
    upgraded the RAM, and replaced the hard drive over the years. But other
    than that, the hardware all original. It's currently running system
    7.5.5, has an Asante MacCon 10 megabit Ethernet card installed in the
    PDS expansion slot for internet connectivity, and runs the MacHTTP web
    server full time, hosting a little website:

    <http://zippy.kicks-ass.org:9997>

    Love the website, it works pretty well on my LC 475, good work!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to YourName@YourISP.com on Sun Nov 7 08:59:44 2021
    In article <sm7bil$1hbn$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name
    <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

    Nice! I still have an LC 475 in the closet here. Love that pizza box
    case... : )

    One of my favorite computer designs,

    Yep, a great case design from when Apple actually allowed people to
    upgrade their computers ... just pop the lid, no screws to bother with.
    It's basically a more flattened copy of the old Apple II design.

    mac pro is easily upgraded without any screws and in all sorts of ways.

    intel mac mini is also easy.


    I've recently acquired Inside Macintosh Volumes 1-6 and I've been trying
    to think up a project I would like to work on. Web development is my day job and I know how to program in C, so I think I could come up with some classic mac apps.

    Depending on which version of Classic Mac OS you're aiming at, Pascal
    can be a option bet than C.

    there is no advantage for pascal, or c for that matter.

    c++ would be the best choice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From philo@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 10 23:40:40 2021
    I was recently given a Quadra running OS-8.

    Though I could put it on-line, I was more curious about setting up a printer.

    To my amazement I was able to use my networked laser printer. Though the printer is 15 years newer than the computer ...because of Postscript it worked!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to philo on Thu Nov 11 14:12:50 2021
    On 2021-11-10 23:40:40 +0000, philo said:

    I was recently given a Quadra running OS-8.

    Though I could put it on-line, I was more curious about setting up a printer.

    To my amazement I was able to use my networked laser printer. Though
    the printer is 15 years newer than the computer ...because of
    Postscript it worked!

    Here's one the other way around ... some years ago I set-up a new iMac
    for someone who had upgraded from an old CRT iMac, a couple of years
    later I had to update the OS on it. Both times I thought they might
    have problems with their big, clunky, very ancient printer (no idea how
    old, but must have been one of the first USB printers from HP), but I
    plugged it into a USB socket and the new iMac recognised it and worked
    fine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to philo@news.novabbs.com on Wed Nov 10 19:38:04 2021
    In article <52093edf8badc27bf88ad21504f402a4@news.novabbs.com>, philo <philo@news.novabbs.com> wrote:

    I was recently given a Quadra running OS-8.

    Though I could put it on-line, I was more curious about setting up a printer.

    To my amazement I was able to use my networked laser printer. Though the printer is 15 years newer than the computer ...because of Postscript it worked!

    every mac supports network printers via postscript, going back to the
    very first mac in 1984.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Eli the Bearded@21:1/5 to nospam@nospam.invalid on Thu Nov 11 01:49:24 2021
    In comp.sys.mac.vintage, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
    Yep, a great case design from when Apple actually allowed people to
    upgrade their computers ... just pop the lid, no screws to bother with.
    It's basically a more flattened copy of the old Apple II design.
    mac pro is easily upgraded without any screws and in all sorts of ways.

    After you break your wallet buying it.

    intel mac mini is also easy.

    As far as I can tell, that one may be easy but has a bunch of screws.

    The LC is probably between this IIsi and Quadra 610 in complexity, but
    ifixit doesn't have a guide for it so I can't be certain:

    https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Macintosh+IIsi+Disassembly/2748

    https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Macintosh+Quadra+610+Teardown/55176

    The IIsi and the 128K are the only "classic mac" they have guides for
    that I've taken apart myself. The IIci was virtually the same as the
    IIsi for opening / repair work. The IIe (not a Mac, but in the "Classic
    Mac" section" was easy to open, but used more screws.

    Depending on which version of Classic Mac OS you're aiming at, Pascal
    can be a option bet than C.
    there is no advantage for pascal, or c for that matter.

    I've programmed for System 7 in C. You definitely got the feel that a
    lot of stuff was written for Pascal, eg seeing Pascal style strings
    in places.

    c++ would be the best choice.

    What C++? The C++ of today is nothing like the C++ of the late 1990s.

    Elijah
    ------
    C has changed, too, but slower

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Denodster@21:1/5 to philo on Wed Nov 10 21:40:00 2021
    In article <52093edf8badc27bf88ad21504f402a4@news.novabbs.com>, philo@news.novabbs.com (philo) wrote:

    I was recently given a Quadra running OS-8.

    Though I could put it on-line, I was more curious about setting up a printer.

    To my amazement I was able to use my networked laser printer. Though the
    printer is 15 years newer than the computer ...because of Postscript it worked!

    I print from System 7.6 to a Brother laser printer from 2019 over tcp/ip.
    If you update Laserwriter 8 you can use a windows computer to extract a
    .PPD file from the windows driver and then copy it over to the mac and add
    it to the printer descriptions in the extensions folder. (I think I used
    res edit to specify the file type to ease the conversion) From there it
    just worked.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D Finnigan@21:1/5 to Denodster on Thu Nov 11 03:59:23 2021
    Denodster wrote:

    I've recently acquired Inside Macintosh Volumes 1-6 and I've been trying
    to think up a project I would like to work on. Web development is my day
    job and I know how to program in C, so I think I could come up with some classic mac apps.

    There's no time to lose. Better get started reading others' Macintosh code, even if you do nothing else. Check out the MacTutor/MacTech archives. Also
    the Apple Developer CD. Both include lots of sample code.

    The MacTutor archives should be online at this URL: https://preserve.mactech.com/articles/index.html

    I wasn't able to load it just now, so maybe it'll work later. :-/

    --
    ]DF$
    The New Apple II User's Guide:
    https://macgui.com/newa2guide/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Your Name@21:1/5 to Eli the Bearded on Thu Nov 11 19:09:52 2021
    On 2021-11-11 01:49:24 +0000, Eli the Bearded said:

    In comp.sys.mac.vintage, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
    Yep, a great case design from when Apple actually allowed people to
    upgrade their computers ... just pop the lid, no screws to bother with.
    It's basically a more flattened copy of the old Apple II design.
    mac pro is easily upgraded without any screws and in all sorts of ways.

    After you break your wallet buying it.

    Some models of Mac Pro and PowerMac towers require hinging out sections
    to get to other sections, so not as easy as the old LC 'pop the lid and
    you're in'.


    intel mac mini is also easy.

    As far as I can tell, that one may be easy but has a bunch of screws.

    There was one Mac Mini model where the base could be turned to get it
    off, but that only allowed limited access. Anything else did require
    unscrewing bits and sliding the motherboard out the back.

    Many of the Mac Mini models aren't very upgradable, if at all, anyway
    because Apple now tends to solder everything down. :(



    The LC is probably between this IIsi and Quadra 610 in complexity, but
    ifixit doesn't have a guide for it so I can't be certain:

    https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Macintosh+IIsi+Disassembly/2748

    https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Macintosh+Quadra+610+Teardown/55176

    The IIsi and the 128K are the only "classic mac" they have guides for
    that I've taken apart myself. The IIci was virtually the same as the
    IIsi for opening / repair work. The IIe (not a Mac, but in the "Classic
    Mac" section" was easy to open, but used more screws.

    Depending on which version of Classic Mac OS you're aiming at, Pascal
    can be a better option than C.
    there is no advantage for pascal, or c for that matter.

    I've programmed for System 7 in C. You definitely got the feel that a
    lot of stuff was written for Pascal, eg seeing Pascal style strings
    in places.

    Early versions of the Mac OS were written in / for Pascal programming.
    MacOS 8 was when C really took over, so if you're planning to write
    programs for earlier than that, you're best to use Pascal. Lightspeed /
    Think Pascal is my personal favourite programming environment, even
    today there's still nothing that comes close to its ease-of-use.

    <https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/178038/what-language-was-standard-for-apple-development-before-objective-c>




    c++ would be the best choice.

    What C++? The C++ of today is nothing like the C++ of the late 1990s.

    Elijah
    ------
    C has changed, too, but slower

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to *@eli.users.panix.com on Thu Nov 11 00:17:58 2021
    In article <eli$2111102049@qaz.wtf>, Eli the Bearded
    <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

    Yep, a great case design from when Apple actually allowed people to
    upgrade their computers ... just pop the lid, no screws to bother with.
    It's basically a more flattened copy of the old Apple II design.
    mac pro is easily upgraded without any screws and in all sorts of ways.

    After you break your wallet buying it.

    people who need a mac pro are not concerned with its price because it
    pays for itself very quickly.

    it's a high end pro system for compute intensive tasks where time is
    money, not something home users would get for faster web surfing.

    the claim was that apple no longer allows people to upgrade macs. that
    is false. they have *never* prohibited it.

    some macs are more limited because most people never upgrade. there is
    no reason to include slots that will never be used.

    intel mac mini is also easy.

    As far as I can tell, that one may be easy but has a bunch of screws.

    it does not.

    the bottom plate twists off, no tools required:

    <https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_ US/macmini/macmini-memory-diagram-2010-12-rotate-cover-open.png> <https://support.apple.com/library/content/dam/edam/applecare/images/en_ US/macmini/macmini-memory-diagram-2010-12-remove-cover.png>

    the previous mac mini enclosure (white top, with both g4 & intel
    processors) needed a putty knife to snap the clips, at which point the
    top lifts off.

    The LC is probably between this IIsi and Quadra 610 in complexity, but
    ifixit doesn't have a guide for it so I can't be certain:

    the lc was extremely easy to open.

    the top lifted off via two tabs at the back, as did many macs of that
    era.

    there was a single screw to secure the lid, but that was not needed and
    rarely put back after opening it.

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Macintosh_LC_%28ori ginal%29_-_rear.jpg>

    many macs were even easier.

    the side of the cheese-grater mac pro and powermac g5 was easily
    removed:

    <https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/LG2YPVaHQQ1nWjIE.medium>

    the side of the powermac g4 flipped down while the computer could
    remain powered and operational, which made it *very* easy to design
    hardware cards.

    <https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/usapiMdDDBFeDDhd.medium> <https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/6j1Fmc6PY2u6c6GG.medium>

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Apple_PowerMa c_G4_M8570_MDD_sideopen.jpg/800px-Apple_PowerMac_G4_M8570_MDD_sideopen.j


    https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Macintosh+IIsi+Disassembly/2748

    https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Macintosh+Quadra+610+Teardown/55176

    The IIsi and the 128K are the only "classic mac" they have guides for
    that I've taken apart myself.

    take-apart guides are not needed for macs of that vintage.

    The IIci was virtually the same as the
    IIsi for opening / repair work.

    the lid was easy to remove, but the similarity ends there.

    the iisi was a low end mac with a single pds slot, and an optional
    adapter for a true nubus slot.

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Macintosh_IIsi_2.jp

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Macintosh_IIsi_Port
    s.jpg>

    the iici, iicx and quadra 700 had nearly identical casings, all with
    three nubus slots in, differing in which external ports they had.

    the iicx lacked onboard video and required a video card, so it really
    had only 2 usable nubus slots for expansion.

    the iici was the first with onboard video, saving a nubus slot, with an additional video connector on the back.

    the quadra 700 was intended for vertical use, with the labeling on the
    front being rotated, plus the feet on what would have been the side
    rather than the bottom. this was to match the bigger quadra 900 tower.

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Macintosh_IIcx.jpg> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Macintosh_IIci.png> <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Macintosh_Quadra_70
    0.png>

    The IIe (not a Mac, but in the "Classic
    Mac" section" was easy to open, but used more screws.

    the apple ii series were very easy to open and modify.

    Depending on which version of Classic Mac OS you're aiming at, Pascal
    can be a option bet than C.
    there is no advantage for pascal, or c for that matter.

    I've programmed for System 7 in C. You definitely got the feel that a
    lot of stuff was written for Pascal, eg seeing Pascal style strings
    in places.

    most of classic mac os was originally written in pascal, with many core routines in hand-optimized assembly.

    that meant that strings were pascal style, however, that was not an
    issue whatsoever for app development with c.

    pascal strings are also more robust than c strings, so this was a
    feature, not a bug.

    think/lightspeed c was *extremely* popular, as was codewarrior, which
    supported both pascal, c, c++ and inline 68k assembly in the same ide.

    c++ would be the best choice.

    What C++? The C++ of today is nothing like the C++ of the late 1990s.

    so what?

    computers of today are nothing like computers of the late 1990s.

    anyone writing apps for classic mac os would be best served using c++.

    codewarrior's powerplant was a fantastic framework for writing apps,
    written in c++, source code included.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to YourName@YourISP.com on Thu Nov 11 02:18:52 2021
    In article <smic3g$d1q$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name
    <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:


    Some models of Mac Pro and PowerMac towers require hinging out sections
    to get to other sections, so not as easy as the old LC 'pop the lid and you're in'.

    nope. the side of the g4 tower flips down and the side of the g5/mac
    pro can be removed entirely.

    There was one Mac Mini model where the base could be turned to get it
    off, but that only allowed limited access. Anything else did require unscrewing bits and sliding the motherboard out the back.

    several models, actually.

    Many of the Mac Mini models aren't very upgradable, if at all, anyway
    because Apple now tends to solder everything down. :(

    nope.

    the 2014 mini was the only one with soldered memory, not that it
    matters since very few people upgrade after purchase.

    the m1 mini has memory on the soc itself, which applies to all m1 macs
    and is much faster than what dimms can provide.


    Early versions of the Mac OS were written in / for Pascal programming.

    it was written in pascal and assembly.

    programming could be done using assembly, pascal, c, c++ and in any combination. basic was also available, along with some less common
    languages available, such as scheme.

    MacOS 8 was when C really took over,

    nope. it was much, much earlier than that.

    in fact, mac native c compilers predated mac native pascal compilers,
    including aztec c, consulair c and megamax c, somewhere around late1984
    or early 1985.

    so if you're planning to write
    programs for earlier than that, you're best to use Pascal.

    nope to that too. see above.

    Lightspeed /
    Think Pascal is my personal favourite programming environment, even
    today there's still nothing that comes close to its ease-of-use.

    codewarrior was *significantly* better, and not just its ide, but also
    the powerplant framework.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From philo@21:1/5 to philo on Thu Nov 11 08:56:39 2021
    On 11/10/2021 5:40 PM, philo wrote:
    I was recently given a Quadra running OS-8.

    Though I could put it on-line, I was more curious about setting up a
    printer.

    To my amazement I was able to use my networked laser printer. Though the printer is 15 years newer than the computer   ...because of Postscript
    it worked!

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    I had them up in my attic fro 15 years and brought them down recently as
    I was given a bunch old old Mac HD's


    AFAIK the SE will only recognize a 20, 40 or 80 meg drive.


    Out the the many drives I had, I found a total of three that stayed
    working after several boot-ups.

    One drive was HFS+ but one was the original Mac FS.


    Though there are plenty of ways to read an HJFS+ drive from Windows or
    Linux, I had to transfer the files from the Mac FS machine to the HFS
    machine via floppy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Denodster@21:1/5 to dog_cow@macgui.com on Thu Nov 11 11:12:57 2021
    In article <dog_cow-1636603162@macgui.com>, D Finnigan
    <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:

    Denodster wrote:

    I've recently acquired Inside Macintosh Volumes 1-6 and I've been trying
    to think up a project I would like to work on. Web development is my day job and I know how to program in C, so I think I could come up with some classic mac apps.

    There's no time to lose. Better get started reading others' Macintosh code, even if you do nothing else. Check out the MacTutor/MacTech archives. Also the Apple Developer CD. Both include lots of sample code.

    The MacTutor archives should be online at this URL: https://preserve.mactech.com/articles/index.html

    I wasn't able to load it just now, so maybe it'll work later. :-/

    works for me, thanks for the link.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Kennedy@21:1/5 to nospam on Thu Nov 11 16:04:46 2021
    On 11/11/2021 15:36, nospam wrote:
    In article <smjav8$5tq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I'm fairly sure I can remember needing appletalk adaptors when trying to network three Apple Plus machines round about 1987 ish...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 11 10:36:33 2021
    In article <smjav8$5tq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I had them up in my attic fro 15 years and brought them down recently as
    I was given a bunch old old Mac HD's

    AFAIK the SE will only recognize a 20, 40 or 80 meg drive.

    very much wrong.

    a mac se will recognize up to 2 gigabyte hard drives, and with system
    7.5, up to 4 gigabytes.

    Out the the many drives I had, I found a total of three that stayed
    working after several boot-ups.

    drives can still work and not be bootable.

    One drive was HFS+ but one was the original Mac FS.

    none were the original mac fs, known as mfs. that was for 400k floppies.

    you probably mean hfs, which replaced mfs to support the larger
    capacity 800k floppies and hard drives, before the mac se was released.

    some very, very early hard drives were mfs only because the predated
    hfs and were mostly a clusterfuck to use.

    hfs+ came much later, with mac os 8.1, which won't work on a mac se.

    Though there are plenty of ways to read an HJFS+ drive from Windows or
    Linux, I had to transfer the files from the Mac FS machine to the HFS
    machine via floppy.

    that's what networks are for.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Kennedy@21:1/5 to nospam on Thu Nov 11 17:09:55 2021
    On 11/11/2021 16:42, nospam wrote:
    In article <z9ydndyDor2DohD8nZ2dnUU78WHNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, David
    Kennedy <davidkennedy@nospamherethankyou.invalid> wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first
    mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I'm fairly sure I can remember needing appletalk adaptors when trying to
    network three Apple Plus machines round about 1987 ish...

    exactly the point.

    those appletalk adapters, more accurately called localtalk adapters,
    was all that was needed because networking was built into every mac.

    they were simple passive devices that went between the mac and the
    localtalk cables, just like an aui adapter did for ethernet (thicknet, (coax/thinnet/10b-2, 10b-t), token ring, etc.

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Apple_LocalTa lk_box_interior_1.jpg/1024px-Apple_LocalTalk_box_interior_1.jpg>

    phonenet was a more popular option because it used ordinary telephone
    cord, which meant existing wiring in the walls could be used without
    needing to run additional cables, making it a less expensive and far
    more convenient option.

    i remember carrying phonenet adapters and rj-11 phone cord in my laptop
    bag so that i could instantly set up a network with several other users
    at any time, anywhere. instant lan parties.

    ethernet required either a card in the internal pds slot of the mac se
    or an external ethernet adapter that looked a lot like a phonenet
    adapter and connected to the existing localtalk port. asante and
    farralon made both, as well as others.

    there were also ethernet/localtalk bridges to bridge both localtalk and ethernet. i had a mac ii with several ethernet cards for a fairly
    complex network setup.

    I remember having them; the rest blurs into the mists of time now...

    I do recall how bloody useful it was when it came to returning to the office and simply plugging into everything with the Mac Portable!

    Still got it somewhere, wonder if it still works?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to Kennedy on Thu Nov 11 11:42:46 2021
    In article <z9ydndyDor2DohD8nZ2dnUU78WHNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, David
    Kennedy <davidkennedy@nospamherethankyou.invalid> wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I'm fairly sure I can remember needing appletalk adaptors when trying to network three Apple Plus machines round about 1987 ish...

    exactly the point.

    those appletalk adapters, more accurately called localtalk adapters,
    was all that was needed because networking was built into every mac.

    they were simple passive devices that went between the mac and the
    localtalk cables, just like an aui adapter did for ethernet (thicknet, (coax/thinnet/10b-2, 10b-t), token ring, etc.

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Apple_LocalTa lk_box_interior_1.jpg/1024px-Apple_LocalTalk_box_interior_1.jpg>

    phonenet was a more popular option because it used ordinary telephone
    cord, which meant existing wiring in the walls could be used without
    needing to run additional cables, making it a less expensive and far
    more convenient option.

    i remember carrying phonenet adapters and rj-11 phone cord in my laptop
    bag so that i could instantly set up a network with several other users
    at any time, anywhere. instant lan parties.

    ethernet required either a card in the internal pds slot of the mac se
    or an external ethernet adapter that looked a lot like a phonenet
    adapter and connected to the existing localtalk port. asante and
    farralon made both, as well as others.

    there were also ethernet/localtalk bridges to bridge both localtalk and ethernet. i had a mac ii with several ethernet cards for a fairly
    complex network setup.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Denodster@21:1/5 to davidkennedygm@gmail.invalid on Thu Nov 11 12:19:25 2021
    In article <z9ydndyDor2DohD8nZ2dnUU78WHNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, davidkennedygm@gmail.invalid wrote:

    On 11/11/2021 15:36, nospam wrote:
    In article <smjav8$5tq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I'm fairly sure I can remember needing appletalk adaptors when trying to network three Apple Plus machines round about 1987 ish...

    I'm posting this using an etherwave adapter, which is a localtalk to
    ethernet bridge, I have it plugged into the serial port for the modem. The device is plug and play but only if you have a MacIP server, because it
    won't do DHCP... such a device would work on any mac that can support
    appletalk (I believe even the 512k can). I've used it with a classic and
    an SE. Pretty sure if want to do TCP/IP with a modern router you need an ethernet card.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to Kennedy on Thu Nov 11 12:20:38 2021
    In article <WI6dnfWwq8T-0xD8nZ2dnUU78fWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, David
    Kennedy <davidkennedy@nospamherethankyou.invalid> wrote:


    I remember having them; the rest blurs into the mists of time now...

    it does, but it's fun to reminisce to a time when things were much
    simpler.

    I do recall how bloody useful it was when it came to returning to the office and simply plugging into everything with the Mac Portable!

    the mac that had the wrong name...

    Still got it somewhere, wonder if it still works?

    the battery is almost certainly dead.

    it was a lead-acid battery, much like the ones in a modern ups.

    the mac portable was designed to run off the battery, even when
    connected to mains, which only served to charge the battery, not power
    the unit, so a dead battery is going to be a problem.

    i'm not sure where you can find a replacement battery, but you can
    always connect an external battery, making the non-portable mac even
    less portable. be sure to get the correct voltage.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to denodster@gmail.com on Thu Nov 11 12:27:12 2021
    In article <denodster-1111211219250001@192.168.2.200>, Denodster <denodster@gmail.com> wrote:


    I'm posting this using an etherwave adapter, which is a localtalk to
    ethernet bridge, I have it plugged into the serial port for the modem. The device is plug and play but only if you have a MacIP server, because it
    won't do DHCP... such a device would work on any mac that can support appletalk (I believe even the 512k can). I've used it with a classic and
    an SE.

    bootp should work, or configure a static address.

    Pretty sure if want to do TCP/IP with a modern router you need an
    ethernet card.

    tcp worked over localtalk. an ethernet card was obviously quite a bit
    faster, but it was not needed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From philo@21:1/5 to nospam on Thu Nov 11 18:09:09 2021
    On 11/11/21 9:36 AM, nospam wrote:
    In article <smjav8$5tq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    OS has networking but I have no hardware for it.



    I had them up in my attic fro 15 years and brought them down recently as
    I was given a bunch old old Mac HD's

    AFAIK the SE will only recognize a 20, 40 or 80 meg drive.

    very much wrong.

    a mac se will recognize up to 2 gigabyte hard drives, and with system
    7.5, up to 4 gigabytes.

    Out the the many drives I had, I found a total of three that stayed
    working after several boot-ups.

    drives can still work and not be bootable.

    Indeed. maybe the drives I had could be recognized but the only drives
    it would boot from were either 20, 40 0r *)



    One drive was HFS+ but one was the original Mac FS.

    none were the original mac fs, known as mfs. that was for 400k floppies.

    you probably mean hfs, which replaced mfs to support the larger
    capacity 800k floppies and hard drives, before the mac se was released.

    some very, very early hard drives were mfs only because the predated
    hfs and were mostly a clusterfuck to use.

    hfs+ came much later, with mac os 8.1, which won't work on a mac se.




    gparted (on my linux machine) could recognize HFS /HFS+ drives but the
    one SE had a drive that gparted could not identify.


    I assume it must have been MFS (FWIF, it's 20 meg)


    I guess I've got a real collector's item

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From philo@21:1/5 to David Kennedy on Thu Nov 11 18:10:21 2021
    On 11/11/21 10:04 AM, David Kennedy wrote:
    On 11/11/2021 15:36, nospam wrote:
    In article <smjav8$5tq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first
    mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I'm fairly sure I can remember needing appletalk adaptors when trying to network three Apple Plus machines round about 1987 ish...




    I have an adapter that will work with my Quadra but nothing for the SE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 11 20:00:18 2021
    In article <smkbb5$1pae$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:



    One drive was HFS+ but one was the original Mac FS.

    none were the original mac fs, known as mfs. that was for 400k floppies.

    you probably mean hfs, which replaced mfs to support the larger
    capacity 800k floppies and hard drives, before the mac se was released.

    some very, very early hard drives were mfs only because the predated
    hfs and were mostly a clusterfuck to use.

    hfs+ came much later, with mac os 8.1, which won't work on a mac se.




    gparted (on my linux machine) could recognize HFS /HFS+ drives but the
    one SE had a drive that gparted could not identify.

    is it readable on the mac? if not, it could be corrupted.

    I assume it must have been MFS (FWIF, it's 20 meg)

    it is not mfs.

    mfs, aka macintosh file system, was a flat file system, which wasn't an
    issue with 400k floppy disks because they were too small to hold very
    many files for it to be a major limitation. mac os at that time could
    create folders, but they were just an illusion.

    mfs was very short-lived and soon replaced in late 1985 with hfs, aka hierarchical file system, with the 800k floppy disk and the apple 20
    megabyte hard drive. hfs was a true hierarchical file system, thus its
    name.

    formatting 400k floppies defaulted to mfs.
    formatting 800k floppies & hard drives (apple or third party) was hfs.

    it was possible to override that and format an 800k floppy as mfs or a
    400k as hfs, but there was no reason to do so, other than testing
    purposes.

    hard drives were always hfs, until 1998 when hfs+ was introduced.

    I guess I've got a real collector's item

    unless it's a clear case, no.

    <https://technabob.com/blog/2010/12/03/rare-transparent-macintosh-se/>
    From what I can tell, only about 10 of these machines were ever
    made, and they lived within the walls of Apple. Now, if you¹ve got
    deep enough pockets, you could be the proud owner of one of
    these extreme rarities. Apparently, these machines were built for
    the Macintosh R&D team at Apple to verify the placement of internal
    components, and never were intended for production.

    This particular see-through Mac SE is being offered over on eBay with
    a starting bid of a whopping $25,000 (USD). For that price, you could
    buy a pretty nice car. Or 50 iPads. And this transparent Macintosh
    doesn¹t even boot up properly. The guy selling it says it¹ll boot off
    of the 800k floppy drive only. And being such a rarity, I¹d doubt
    that cracking it open and fixing the hard drive would be good for
    its resale value.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Kennedy@21:1/5 to nospam on Fri Nov 12 11:45:57 2021
    On 11/11/2021 17:20, nospam wrote:
    In article <WI6dnfWwq8T-0xD8nZ2dnUU78fWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, David
    Kennedy <davidkennedy@nospamherethankyou.invalid> wrote:


    I remember having them; the rest blurs into the mists of time now...

    it does, but it's fun to reminisce to a time when things were much
    simpler.

    And a 20Meg HD was the business...

    I do recall how bloody useful it was when it came to returning to the office >> and simply plugging into everything with the Mac Portable!

    the mac that had the wrong name...

    Still got it somewhere, wonder if it still works?

    the battery is almost certainly dead.

    it was a lead-acid battery, much like the ones in a modern ups.

    the mac portable was designed to run off the battery, even when
    connected to mains, which only served to charge the battery, not power
    the unit, so a dead battery is going to be a problem.

    i'm not sure where you can find a replacement battery, but you can
    always connect an external battery, making the non-portable mac even
    less portable. be sure to get the correct voltage.


    Once I find it I'll give t a try

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us on Fri Nov 12 17:46:16 2021
    In article <5LBjJ.49931$SR4.6229@fx43.iad>, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:


    I don't know how easy they are to find now, but I've used a Cayman GatorBox CS to bridge an Apple IIGS and a Color Classic to Linux servers running netatalk. I think I even had them talking to a G4 Mac mini when the Mac was running Tiger. Other LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridges might work, but the
    trick with getting older hardware talking to newer hardware is EtherTalk support. Linux still supports EtherTalk if you have the right kernel
    modules compiled, but IIRC Mac OS X dropped EtherTalk support after 10.4.

    or just use a vintage mac. :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Alfter@21:1/5 to philo@privacy.net on Fri Nov 12 22:18:41 2021
    In article <smkbdd$1pae$2@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote: >On 11/11/21 10:04 AM, David Kennedy wrote:
    On 11/11/2021 15:36, nospam wrote:
    In article <smjav8$5tq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I also have some SE's but no networking on them.

    yes they very definitely do.

    *every* mac ever made has networking and in fact, macs were the first
    mainstream computers include it, without any additional hardware.

    localtalk is built in. ethernet cards were an optional extra, either
    with an internal pds card or via an external adapter or network bridge.

    I'm fairly sure I can remember needing appletalk adaptors when trying to
    network three Apple Plus machines round about 1987 ish...

    I have an adapter that will work with my Quadra but nothing for the SE

    I don't know how easy they are to find now, but I've used a Cayman GatorBox
    CS to bridge an Apple IIGS and a Color Classic to Linux servers running netatalk. I think I even had them talking to a G4 Mac mini when the Mac was running Tiger. Other LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridges might work, but the
    trick with getting older hardware talking to newer hardware is EtherTalk support. Linux still supports EtherTalk if you have the right kernel
    modules compiled, but IIRC Mac OS X dropped EtherTalk support after 10.4.

    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From philo@21:1/5 to nospam on Fri Nov 12 20:26:55 2021
    On 11/11/21 7:00 PM, nospam wrote:
    In article <smkbb5$1pae$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:



    One drive was HFS+ but one was the original Mac FS.

    none were the original mac fs, known as mfs. that was for 400k floppies. >>>
    you probably mean hfs, which replaced mfs to support the larger
    capacity 800k floppies and hard drives, before the mac se was released.

    some very, very early hard drives were mfs only because the predated
    hfs and were mostly a clusterfuck to use.

    hfs+ came much later, with mac os 8.1, which won't work on a mac se.




    gparted (on my linux machine) could recognize HFS /HFS+ drives but the
    one SE had a drive that gparted could not identify.

    is it readable on the mac? if not, it could be corrupted.

    I assume it must have been MFS (FWIF, it's 20 meg)

    it is not mfs.



    To correct my typo in a previous post of mine, the only drives I had
    that would boot on the SE's were 20 meg 40 meg or 80 meg



    Both of the SE's I have work fine and I am using drives that have OS-7.1
    or OS 7.5

    I can read most of the drives on my Linux machine using gparted and all
    but one are identified as HFS or HFS+

    One drive however is not recognized by gparted nor is it recognized on
    my Windows machine with various utilities for reading Mac drives.

    Since it is evidently not an HFS or an HFS+ drive I surmised that it was


    If you say it is not MFS...my question however is what file system is on it?


    Ergo:

    I surmised the drive was MFS as it was NOT HFS or HFS+


    MFS supports hard drives up to 20 megs.
    The drive was 20 megs.
    (all other drives were 40 meg or 80 megs)


    MFS support was removed with OS7.6.1
    All the machines were OS 7.1 or 7.5



    snip,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Denodster@21:1/5 to philo on Fri Nov 12 23:09:25 2021
    In article <smn7pg$1qht$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:

    snip


    One drive however is not recognized by gparted nor is it recognized on
    my Windows machine with various utilities for reading Mac drives.

    Since it is evidently not an HFS or an HFS+ drive I surmised that it was


    If you say it is not MFS...my question however is what file system is on it?


    did ever have a machine set up to run apple unix? I believe that had it's
    own filesystem.


    Ergo:

    I surmised the drive was MFS as it was NOT HFS or HFS+


    MFS supports hard drives up to 20 megs.
    The drive was 20 megs.
    (all other drives were 40 meg or 80 megs)


    MFS support was removed with OS7.6.1
    All the machines were OS 7.1 or 7.5



    snip,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From philo@21:1/5 to Denodster on Fri Nov 12 23:48:41 2021
    On 11/12/21 22:09, Denodster wrote:
    In article <smn7pg$1qht$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net> wrote:

    snip


    One drive however is not recognized by gparted nor is it recognized on
    my Windows machine with various utilities for reading Mac drives.

    Since it is evidently not an HFS or an HFS+ drive I surmised that it was


    If you say it is not MFS...my question however is what file system is on it? >>

    did ever have a machine set up to run apple unix? I believe that had it's
    own filesystem.





    The machine was not running apple unix

    BTW: After having been using Linux for over 20 years, I did get to try
    some real Unix.
    Had to do a data recovery from an SCO server.
    That was sure fun!


    Ergo:

    I surmised the drive was MFS as it was NOT HFS or HFS+


    MFS supports hard drives up to 20 megs.
    The drive was 20 megs.
    (all other drives were 40 meg or 80 megs)


    MFS support was removed with OS7.6.1
    All the machines were OS 7.1 or 7.5



    snip,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From nospam@21:1/5 to as i on Sat Nov 13 12:43:40 2021
    In article <smn7pg$1qht$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:


    To correct my typo in a previous post of mine, the only drives I had
    that would boot on the SE's were 20 meg 40 meg or 80 meg

    that's because those were common capacities when the se was released.

    the se, as well as other macs of that era, supported up to 2 gig hard
    drives, unless it's running 7.5, where the maximum was 4 gig.




    Since it is evidently not an HFS or an HFS+ drive I surmised that it was


    it is definitely not mfs. full stop.

    mfs was not suitable for hard drives for several reasons, mainly that
    it was a flat file system, did not scale well and that hfs was better
    in every way.

    If you say it is not MFS...my question however is what file system is on it?

    hfs if it was used with a mac.

    if it's an external drive, it could have been used with a different
    computer platform and be another format, but then it wouldn't be usable
    with the mac, at least not easily.

    if you have a disk utility with the ability to read raw disk blocks,
    post the first 64 bytes of the first 4 blocks (0..3). they're 512 byte
    blocks, but only the beginning of each one is of interest.




    MFS supports hard drives up to 20 megs.

    technically true, but that doesn't change anything.

    mfs was *not* used for hard drives (with one exception, see below).

    mfs was designed for and used for floppies, specifically, the 400k
    floppy in the original 128k and 512k macs.

    mfs was replaced with hfs in late 1985, roughly 1.5 years after the mac
    was first introduced, when apple released their 20 mb hard drive and
    800k floppy drive.

    mac hard drives were always hfs, up until 1998, when hfs was replaced
    by hfs+ in macos 8.1, which could not run at all on a mac se.

    the sole exception were a couple of third party hard drives in 1984-85, designed for the original mac 128k/512k, before hfs existed. they used
    a 5.25" mechanism, were 5-10 meg in capacity. they were also large,
    noisy, and very, very slow due to mfs, shitty drivers and a slow
    hardware interface. floppy disks were faster (seriously).

    those drives were not compatible with a mac se, so it's not your
    situation.

    the only good thing was a truly massive power supply (5a, maybe more, i
    don't remember) that could be used for all sorts of other projects,
    long after the drive was useless.

    the entire left side of the enclosure was the power supply: <http://www.peterjsucy.com/History/1985/EarlyHardDrive.jpg>

    The drive was 20 megs.
    (all other drives were 40 meg or 80 megs)

    as i said, that was a common capacity when the se was a current model.

    MFS support was removed with OS7.6.1

    significant limitations to mfs support began with system 7.0.

    mfs became read-only in system 7.6.1, with all support removed in macos
    8.

    <https://web.archive.org/web/20071012140146/http://docs.info.apple.com/a rticle.html?artnum=9502>

    All the machines were OS 7.1 or 7.5

    that definitely means it's hfs. see above.

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to denodster@gmail.com on Sat Nov 13 12:43:42 2021
    In article <denodster-1211212309250001@192.168.2.200>, Denodster <denodster@gmail.com> wrote:


    did ever have a machine set up to run apple unix? I believe that had it's
    own filesystem.

    it did, however, a/ux was not supported on a mac se.

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  • From philo@21:1/5 to All on Sat Nov 13 23:38:51 2021
    If the drive is HFS , why does Gparted and all the Mac reading Windows utilities say the partition type is unknown?

    The drive is working.

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to philo@news.novabbs.com on Sat Nov 13 19:25:50 2021
    In article <37cdbba28f957500d95f5677f424b5f2@news.novabbs.com>, philo <philo@news.novabbs.com> wrote:

    If the drive is HFS , why does Gparted and all the Mac reading Windows utilities say the partition type is unknown?

    without seeing it, i can only guess.

    is it readable on a mac??

    if not, it's most likely directory corruption. it could also be
    unformatted. it's *not* mfs.

    post the first 64 bytes of the first four blocks.

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  • From Eli the Bearded@21:1/5 to nospam@nospam.invalid on Mon Nov 15 00:27:10 2021
    In comp.sys.mac.vintage, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    Denodster <denodster@gmail.com> wrote:
    did ever have a machine set up to run apple unix? I believe that had it's
    own filesystem.

    It was not the usual HFS filesystem, but I'm pretty sure it was a
    fairly standard (for the day) Unix "UFS" filesystem.

    it did, however, a/ux was not supported on a mac se.

    Not a plain SE, no. SE/30 was the minimum. A/UX required a 68030 with coprocessor or a 68040. The list of supported devices is here:

    https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_applemacaulationGuide1992_3096342/page/n13/mode/2up

    Although you have to know that at the time that was written, there were
    only two Quadra models (700 and 900). A/UX 2.x did not work on the
    Quadras. A/UX 1.x I think only ran on the II / IIfx.

    I've run A/UX on IIsi and IIci, and I still have an image of my A/UX
    hard disk.

    When I tried to mount the disk on Linux, the "mount" command succeeded,
    but the files were not readable. I suspect more "Linux support for the filesystem has issues" than "filesystem was odd" issues.

    mount -t ufs -o ro,ufstype=old /dev/sda3 /mnt/mo

    Looks good in syslog:

    Feb 7 16:19:19 miniq kernel: ufs_read_super: fs is active

    But then, trying to copy files I got a slew of filesystem errors in syslog (lines wrapped, first few errors only):

    Feb 7 16:20:42 miniq kernel: UFS-fs error (device 08:03):
    ufs_readdir: bad entry in directory #3635, size 42949673472: reclen %%
    4 != 0 - offset=512, inode=611254264, reclen=9838, namlen=65532
    Feb 7 16:20:44 miniq kernel: UFS-fs error (device 08:03):
    ufs_readdir: bad entry in directory #3644, size 25769804288: reclen %%
    4 != 0 - offset=512, inode=1314258944, reclen=12078, namlen=16
    Feb 7 16:20:46 miniq kernel: UFS-fs error (device 08:03):
    ufs_readdir: bad entry in directory #3650, size 47244640768: reclen %%
    4 != 0 - offset=512, inode=1069135, reclen=22607, namlen=24632
    Feb 7 16:21:04 miniq kernel: UFS-fs error (device 08:03):
    ufs_readdir: bad entry in directory #8971, size 38654706176: reclen %%
    4 != 0 - offset=512, inode=1853126944, reclen=28518, namlen=2637

    Elijah
    ------
    archive.org search does not like "a/ux" (use "a ux" with quotes)

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  • From philo@21:1/5 to nospam on Sun Nov 14 18:44:21 2021
    On 11/13/21 6:25 PM, nospam wrote:
    In article <37cdbba28f957500d95f5677f424b5f2@news.novabbs.com>, philo <philo@news.novabbs.com> wrote:

    If the drive is HFS , why does Gparted and all the Mac reading Windows
    utilities say the partition type is unknown?

    without seeing it, i can only guess.

    is it readable on a mac??

    if not, it's most likely directory corruption. it could also be
    unformatted. it's *not* mfs.

    post the first 64 bytes of the first four blocks.




    I think I have it figured out, and you are right, it has to be HFS.

    I just pulled the machine back out of storage and booted it up.

    It was not running OS-7 it's running OS 6.0.4



    What I did not know was that there were two versions of HFS prior to HFS+


    This evidently is the first version which supports up to 2 gig drives.
    The 2nd version starting with OS 7.5 (I believe) supports 4 Gig drives.


    What I have therefore surmised is that the Linux and Windows Mac-reading utilities must simply not recognize early HFS.


    The drive is not corrupted because I just now ran a diagnostic and it
    checked OK

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 14 21:02:29 2021
    In article <smsah6$rnh$1@gioia.aioe.org>, philo <philo@privacy.net>
    wrote:

    I think I have it figured out, and you are right, it has to be HFS.

    yep.

    I just pulled the machine back out of storage and booted it up.

    It was not running OS-7 it's running OS 6.0.4

    that's not surprising for a mac se.

    the mac se originally shipped with system 4.0 and supports up to 7.5.5.

    What I did not know was that there were two versions of HFS prior to HFS+

    there is only one version of hfs.

    This evidently is the first version which supports up to 2 gig drives.
    The 2nd version starting with OS 7.5 (I believe) supports 4 Gig drives.

    hfs supports up to 2 terabyte drives.

    the 2 gig limitation was mac os through 7.1.

    system 7.5 added support for 4 gb.

    the limit was increased to 2 tb for macs that originally shipped with
    system 7.5.2 (or later) or has pci slots. the mac se is neither.

    What I have therefore surmised is that the Linux and Windows Mac-reading utilities must simply not recognize early HFS.

    there is no 'early hfs'.

    hfs was replaced with hfs+ in 1998, but that's a different (although
    similar) file system.

    The drive is not corrupted because I just now ran a diagnostic and it
    checked OK

    what diagnostic did you use?

    the only one that will reliably find and repair directory corruption is
    alsoft diskwarrior.

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  • From philo@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 15 04:51:29 2021
    You need to read Apple's knowledge base.
    It clearly states that HFS was modified once and semi-clearly states twice. HFS+ first came out with OS8

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to philo@news.novabbs.com on Mon Nov 15 05:58:51 2021
    In article <362bb29106bc080325f526848f2c9118@news.novabbs.com>, philo <philo@news.novabbs.com> wrote:

    You need to read Apple's knowledge base.

    you need to stop trying to tell me about mac os (or apple in general).
    i've been writing mac software since 1984, moving to ios about 12 years
    ago.

    It clearly states that HFS was modified once and semi-clearly states twice.

    citation required.

    there were minor changes to hfs+, not hfs.

    HFS+ first came out with OS8

    nope. hfs+ appeared with mac os 8.1.

    you might want to re-read whatever it is you supposedly read.

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  • From philo@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 15 12:25:48 2021
    Since you do not how to search the Apple knowledge base, I will no longer be reading your replies.
    Though you ended up wrong again as usual, I did at least learn somethig about MFS.

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  • From nospam@21:1/5 to philo@news.novabbs.com on Mon Nov 15 08:05:12 2021
    In article <4127633d81a5b92b1a7096b874974bab@news.novabbs.com>, philo <philo@news.novabbs.com> wrote:

    Since you do not how to search the Apple knowledge base, I will no longer be reading your replies.

    as expected, you can't back up your claims and resort to attacks.

    post the kb article that states there was more than one version of hfs
    or admit you're wrong.

    Though you ended up wrong again as usual,

    nope. it's *you* who has consistently been wrong, including this.

    I did at least learn somethig about
    MFS.

    only because i explained it to you.

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  • From Scott Alfter@21:1/5 to nospam@nospam.invalid on Mon Nov 15 18:03:42 2021
    In article <121120211746166994%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
    In article <5LBjJ.49931$SR4.6229@fx43.iad>, Scott Alfter ><scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:


    I don't know how easy they are to find now, but I've used a Cayman GatorBox >> CS to bridge an Apple IIGS and a Color Classic to Linux servers running
    netatalk. I think I even had them talking to a G4 Mac mini when the Mac was >> running Tiger. Other LocalTalk-to-Ethernet bridges might work, but the
    trick with getting older hardware talking to newer hardware is EtherTalk
    support. Linux still supports EtherTalk if you have the right kernel
    modules compiled, but IIRC Mac OS X dropped EtherTalk support after 10.4.

    or just use a vintage mac. :)

    I have a Quadra 610 that could take the GatorBox's place, but it takes more space. :)

    ...or if you're referring to hardware and not software, the reason for connecting to the Linux box and not an old Mac is that most of my files live there. At one point, I was using cc65 to cross-compile software that the
    IIGS could then copy over and run...not a bad way at all to do that, as you
    can take advantage of modern editors, version control, etc.

    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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  • From Heiko Recktenwald@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 11 00:28:37 2023
    Am 11.11.21 um 18:27 schrieb nospam:

    Pretty sure if want to do TCP/IP with a modern router you need an
    ethernet card.

    tcp worked over localtalk. an ethernet card was obviously quite a bit
    faster, but it was not needed.


    But dont forget SLIP. Without any adapter. All you needed was a serial
    cable to a second computer with WIFI or whatever to the internet.

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  • From poc@pocnet.net@21:1/5 to Heiko Recktenwald on Sun Jun 11 00:15:14 2023
    Heiko Recktenwald <heikorecktenwald@gmail.com> wrote:
    Am 11.11.21 um 18:27 schrieb nospam:

    Pretty sure if want to do TCP/IP with a modern router you need an
    ethernet card.

    tcp worked over localtalk. an ethernet card was obviously quite a bit
    faster, but it was not needed.

    But dont forget SLIP. Without any adapter. All you needed was a serial
    cable to a second computer with WIFI or whatever to the internet.

    SLIP is cumbersome to configure. PPP is easier. Also, I'm not aware about a SLIP implementation running on System 7.

    To use IP over LocalTalk you need additional software to tunnel IP in
    AppleTalk packets. Personally, I'm using older Cisco Routers for that purpose. There never have been LocalTalk interfaces for those, though.

    To connect LocalTalk and Ethernet network segments, you need either a Mac with both ports, or a hardware bridge. Unfortunately, those are becoming rare.

    --

    :wq! PoC

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  • From scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us@21:1/5 to poc@pocnet.net on Fri Jun 16 16:18:18 2023
    poc@pocnet.net wrote:
    To connect LocalTalk and Ethernet network segments, you need either a Mac with
    both ports, or a hardware bridge. Unfortunately, those are becoming rare.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    I have a Cayman GatorBox CS in storage that does that. I used it mainly to connect an Apple IIGS to a Netatalk server running on a Linux box, but I
    think I might've gotten some sort of IP connectivity on a Quadra 610 or
    Color Classic with it as well.

    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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  • From Sebastian P.@21:1/5 to denodster on Thu Sep 28 13:28:42 2023
    In article <sm502u$nbh$2@dont-email.me>,
    denodster@gmail.com (denodster) wrote:

    Posting on my LC 475 running Internews. This is my first time on Usenet
    and I'm thrilled to find this group. Running system 7.6.1 and MacIP via
    an old cisco router. It's been a fun project and I'm thrilled to get to
    use it like this.

    What kind of hardware are you all running? and how did you get it
    online?

    I'm using MT-Newswatcher 2.4.4 on my Mac IIci. As far as I know, it's
    the last version for 68k Macintoshes. It works really nice! The IIci
    sports 32 MB RAM (who'd ever need that much RAM anyway, right?)

    Recently invested into a PiSCSI (RaSCSI) add-on that provides my IIci
    with an internet connection and a virtual CD drive by sacrificing an old Raspberry Pi I had left.

    I'm really excited how well the IIci and Usenet communicate together.
    Feels natural.

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to info@cornica.org on Thu Sep 28 22:24:32 2023
    Sebastian P. <info@cornica.org> wrote:

    In article <sm502u$nbh$2@dont-email.me>,
    denodster@gmail.com (denodster) wrote:

    Posting on my LC 475 running Internews. This is my first time on Usenet
    and I'm thrilled to find this group. Running system 7.6.1 and MacIP via
    an old cisco router. It's been a fun project and I'm thrilled to get to
    use it like this.

    What kind of hardware are you all running? and how did you get it
    online?

    I'm using MT-Newswatcher 2.4.4 on my Mac IIci. As far as I know, it's
    the last version for 68k Macintoshes. It works really nice! The IIci
    sports 32 MB RAM (who'd ever need that much RAM anyway, right?)

    Recently invested into a PiSCSI (RaSCSI) add-on that provides my IIci
    with an internet connection and a virtual CD drive by sacrificing an old Raspberry Pi I had left.

    I'm really excited how well the IIci and Usenet communicate together.
    Feels natural.

    I'm currently using a G3 with OS 8.6 and MacSOUP 2.4.6 . So fast and user-friendly that I can't think of any improvements it needs.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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