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  • What's new with the other programming models?

    From luser droog@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 2 22:13:48 2021
    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models. Considering
    all functional stuff to be essentially Church and all Von Neumann
    or procedural programming to be essentially Turing.

    What's up with the other models? Anything new being done
    with Post systems or Thue system? Are there other weirder ones?

    I suppose Macro processors are in a sense a development
    of Post string rewriting. But, .... not really. Nobody does
    Macro processing like that, right? You pack more built-in
    power to the macro itself, with math and lists and control
    structures and stuff, right?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to luser droog on Fri Dec 3 10:02:22 2021
    On 03/12/2021 07:13, luser droog wrote:
    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models. Considering
    all functional stuff to be essentially Church and all Von Neumann
    or procedural programming to be essentially Turing.


    (Just to be clear, in case anyone is unsure - Church and Turing were
    very interested in the theory of what could be computed, rather than how
    to compute it, and their models along with all other models come up with
    the same set of computable functions. Different models, including
    quantum computing, can all solve the same problems - they just do it in different ways, and can have different efficiencies in terms of time and
    size.)

    What's up with the other models? Anything new being done
    with Post systems or Thue system? Are there other weirder ones?

    I suppose Macro processors are in a sense a development
    of Post string rewriting. But, .... not really. Nobody does
    Macro processing like that, right? You pack more built-in
    power to the macro itself, with math and lists and control
    structures and stuff, right?


    You are going to have to give some links, references or details here.
    There are people here who have heard of some pretty unusual languages,
    but no one has heard of everything!

    The two big programming models that are fashionable these days are
    quantum computing and neural networks.

    Every now and again I also hear about some new chip designed around the
    model of a sea of simple computing units that each do a small part of
    the overall work. This is different from cellular automata networks
    (where each cell has the same program and configuration) and neural
    networks (where each cell has the same program but different
    configuration, or connections and weights).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Ben Bacarisse on Fri Dec 3 13:04:42 2021
    On 03/12/2021 12:24, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> writes:



    I suppose Macro processors are in a sense a development
    of Post string rewriting.

    Yes. They were once very active areas of work/research -- trac, TeX, m4
    and so on -- but I think the all interesting ideas have been worked out.

    In the TeX world, the modern direction is LuaTeX - complex functions are written in Lua rather than TeX. TeX macros maybe Turing complete, but
    they are not always easy to program well - especially if you are
    interested in efficiency. Lua is an imperative language, rather than a
    macro language.

    When that happens, an area needs a new spark to re-ignite interest.

    Or it can just be left behind. We don't need to work on /everything/ !

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ben Bacarisse@21:1/5 to luser droog on Fri Dec 3 11:24:52 2021
    luser droog <mijoryx@yahoo.com> writes:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models. Considering
    all functional stuff to be essentially Church and all Von Neumann
    or procedural programming to be essentially Turing.

    What's up with the other models?

    Prolog didn't seem to lead anywhere. It's still important, but there is
    no vast collection of derivative languages.

    Also, there are other models like the various kinds of register
    machines. These are both theoretically interesting and more directly
    related to what we think of as a modern computer. The line from Turing machines to C is harder to trace than the line from the lambda calculus
    to Scheme.

    On the purely theoretical side, Boolean circuits were all the rage a
    decade or two ago, but I don't know if there are still a hot topic.

    Anything new being done
    with Post systems or Thue system? Are there other weirder ones?

    Not as far as I know, but I am out of the game now.

    I suppose Macro processors are in a sense a development
    of Post string rewriting.

    Yes. They were once very active areas of work/research -- trac, TeX, m4
    and so on -- but I think the all interesting ideas have been worked out.
    When that happens, an area needs a new spark to re-ignite interest.
    That happened with functional languages when the deep theory of types
    started to be investigated.

    Other string processing languages like Snobol left a legacy in tools
    like AWK, Icon and Perl but I don't know what, if anything, is really
    new in that field. (Raku, AKA Perl6, is really just a functional
    language with a prominent string type.)

    But, .... not really. Nobody does
    Macro processing like that, right? You pack more built-in
    power to the macro itself, with math and lists and control
    structures and stuff, right?

    I think that's universal. All of the formal models were adapted like
    that to make real tools. To get LISP from lambda calculus you add
    built-in lists, numbers and symbols. The practical macro processors all
    do the same, even though such things can be modelled in the pure
    theoretical system they are based on.

    --
    Ben.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From luser droog@21:1/5 to David Brown on Fri Dec 3 19:40:54 2021
    On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 3:02:26 AM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
    On 03/12/2021 07:13, luser droog wrote:
    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models. Considering
    all functional stuff to be essentially Church and all Von Neumann
    or procedural programming to be essentially Turing.

    (Just to be clear, in case anyone is unsure - Church and Turing were
    very interested in the theory of what could be computed, rather than how
    to compute it, and their models along with all other models come up with
    the same set of computable functions. Different models, including
    quantum computing, can all solve the same problems - they just do it in different ways, and can have different efficiencies in terms of time and size.)
    What's up with the other models? Anything new being done
    with Post systems or Thue system? Are there other weirder ones?

    I suppose Macro processors are in a sense a development
    of Post string rewriting. But, .... not really. Nobody does
    Macro processing like that, right? You pack more built-in
    power to the macro itself, with math and lists and control
    structures and stuff, right?

    You are going to have to give some links, references or details here.
    There are people here who have heard of some pretty unusual languages,
    but no one has heard of everything!

    Well, my "standard" list of models is just the table of contents from Minsky's Finite and Infinite Machines.
    Finite State Automata
    Neural Networks with McCulloch-Pitts neurons
    Turing Machines
    Lisp/Lambda Calculus
    Post String Re-Writing Systems

    I think Thue only comes in because Post's paper was a commentary on his commentary on Godel. So pretty much anything not on this list, I'd consider 'weird' (and therefore "interesting").

    I have an example of (AFAICT) a semi-Thue system in a short but weird
    C program here:
    https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/8734/2381

    The two big programming models that are fashionable these days are
    quantum computing and neural networks.

    Every now and again I also hear about some new chip designed around the
    model of a sea of simple computing units that each do a small part of
    the overall work. This is different from cellular automata networks
    (where each cell has the same program and configuration) and neural
    networks (where each cell has the same program but different
    configuration, or connections and weights).

    That's interesting. That reminds me of one of the things Chuck Moore (Forth) was working on, I think it was called GreenArrays.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From luser droog@21:1/5 to luser droog on Fri Dec 3 21:03:01 2021
    On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 9:40:57 PM UTC-6, luser droog wrote:
    On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 3:02:26 AM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:

    You are going to have to give some links, references or details here.
    There are people here who have heard of some pretty unusual languages,
    but no one has heard of everything!
    Well, my "standard" list of models is just the table of contents from Minsky's
    Finite and Infinite Machines.
    Finite State Automata
    Neural Networks with McCulloch-Pitts neurons
    Turing Machines
    Lisp/Lambda Calculus
    Post String Re-Writing Systems


    Oh, I forgot L-Systems. In a barebones configuration, I think they're not particularly powerful. But with some supplemental doodads like passing
    state around or stochastic repetition, you can make pretty flowers and trees. But L-Systems do get interesting for modeling fractals. The simplest implementation IMO is with macro expansion <smirk>.

    Cellular automata are a notable development of finite state machines.
    I've a got a hefty Wolfram book. It's too long and dense to read. But it's
    full of pretty pictures.

    I think Thue only comes in because Post's paper was a commentary on his commentary on Godel. So pretty much anything not on this list, I'd consider 'weird' (and therefore "interesting").

    Well I remembered that story a little wrong. sigh.

    I have an example of (AFAICT) a semi-Thue system in a short but weird
    C program here:
    https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/8734/2381
    The two big programming models that are fashionable these days are
    quantum computing and neural networks.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From luser droog@21:1/5 to Ben Bacarisse on Fri Dec 3 21:26:21 2021
    On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 5:26:46 AM UTC-6, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    luser droog <mij...@yahoo.com> writes:

    What's up with the other models?
    Prolog didn't seem to lead anywhere. It's still important, but there is
    no vast collection of derivative languages.


    Yeah, I keep meaning to look deeper into Prolog stuff. And I keep not
    doing it.

    Hmmm.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to luser droog on Sat Dec 4 01:14:27 2021
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.

    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to luser droog on Sat Dec 4 16:03:49 2021
    On 04/12/2021 04:40, luser droog wrote:
    On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 3:02:26 AM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:


    Every now and again I also hear about some new chip designed around the
    model of a sea of simple computing units that each do a small part of
    the overall work. This is different from cellular automata networks
    (where each cell has the same program and configuration) and neural
    networks (where each cell has the same program but different
    configuration, or connections and weights).

    That's interesting. That reminds me of one of the things Chuck Moore (Forth) was working on, I think it was called GreenArrays.


    Yes, that is an example of such things. Utterly horrible. I mean,
    Forth is okay as a language if you want something very low level and
    compact, and it's a good basis for minimal processors. (4-bit
    microcontrollers usually have a Forth-like assembly.) But it is a
    language that is easy to abuse to produce stuff that is incomprehensible
    even to experts. "Color Forth", Moore's latest idea, adds colour coding
    to change the meaning of code, and splitting everything up into small
    parts that you have to place and route manually makes it a complete
    mess. The result is something that can't be used sensibly for anything
    that would traditionally be done in software, but can be used to make software-defined peripherals that are massively more complex,
    power-consuming and expensive than just using normal hardware
    peripherals. (An application note proudly demonstrates how to make a 10
    MB Ethernet interface using most of the resources of the $20 chip and
    software that is much more complex than you need for making a 100 MB MAC
    in an FPGA at a fraction of the price - or that you can buy in a $2 microcontroller.)

    It's good that people try different ideas from the mainstream - that is
    often how innovation occurs. Mostly, however, they are dead-ends.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From luser droog@21:1/5 to ju...@diegidio.name on Sat Dec 4 16:47:20 2021
    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:14:29 AM UTC-6, ju...@diegidio.name wrote:
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.
    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    That's not a very nice thing to say. Isn't there medication for that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to luser droog on Sun Dec 5 02:55:51 2021
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 01:47:22 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:
    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:14:29 AM UTC-6, ju...@diegidio.name wrote:
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.
    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    That's not a very nice thing to say. Isn't there medication for that?

    ESAD, you fucking agents of the enemy.

    *Spammers Alert*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Julio Di Egidio on Sun Dec 5 13:29:28 2021
    On 05/12/2021 11:55, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 01:47:22 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:
    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:14:29 AM UTC-6, ju...@diegidio.name wrote:
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.
    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    That's not a very nice thing to say. Isn't there medication for that?

    ESAD, you fucking agents of the enemy.

    *Spammers Alert*

    Julio


    Julio, I think you may be confusing posters. This group /is/ plagued by spammers, trolls, and assorted vandals. luser droog is not one of them
    - he is an active contributor to the group and very welcome here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun Dec 5 14:52:00 2021
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 13:29:31 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 11:55, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 01:47:22 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:
    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:14:29 AM UTC-6, ju...@diegidio.name wrote:
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.
    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    That's not a very nice thing to say. Isn't there medication for that?

    ESAD, you fucking agents of the enemy.

    *Spammers Alert*

    Julio, I think you may be confusing posters. This group /is/ plagued by spammers, trolls, and assorted vandals. luser droog is not one of them
    - he is an active contributor to the group and very welcome here.

    No, he's not. And this is not even the only group he is spamming. While you are yet another fucking idiot who cannot smell shit when you step on it.
    And politeness is simply over: nazi retards and/or agents of the enemy, there is no substantial difference anymore...

    You've been warned.

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Sun Dec 5 15:09:37 2021
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 23:59:43 UTC+1, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 22:52, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 13:29:31 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 11:55, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 01:47:22 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:
    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:14:29 AM UTC-6, ju...@diegidio.name wrote:
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.
    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    That's not a very nice thing to say. Isn't there medication for that? >>>
    ESAD, you fucking agents of the enemy.

    *Spammers Alert*

    Julio, I think you may be confusing posters. This group /is/ plagued by
    spammers, trolls, and assorted vandals. luser droog is not one of them
    - he is an active contributor to the group and very welcome here.

    No, he's not. And this is not even the only group he is spamming.

    You are mistaken, and David is correct.

    No, he is not: but you are a piece of spamming shit indeed regularly feeding the cross-posting trolls...

    While you are yet another fucking idiot who cannot smell shit when you step on it.
    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of
    And politeness is simply over:
    No. It costs nothing to be polite.

    I'll be polite when you morons stop polluting all ponds, you fucking nazi retards.

    Fuck you and David Crocket. ESAD.

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to Julio Di Egidio on Sun Dec 5 22:59:39 2021
    On 05/12/2021 22:52, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 13:29:31 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 11:55, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Sunday, 5 December 2021 at 01:47:22 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:
    On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:14:29 AM UTC-6, ju...@diegidio.name wrote:
    On Friday, 3 December 2021 at 07:13:49 UTC+1, luser droog wrote:

    All the cool developments over the past 80 years or so
    has been focus on the Church and Turing models.
    You troll and piece of spamming shit.

    ESAD you and the retarded cunts who are gonna play your game.

    *Plonk*

    That's not a very nice thing to say. Isn't there medication for that?

    ESAD, you fucking agents of the enemy.

    *Spammers Alert*

    Julio, I think you may be confusing posters. This group /is/ plagued by
    spammers, trolls, and assorted vandals. luser droog is not one of them
    - he is an active contributor to the group and very welcome here.

    No, he's not. And this is not even the only group he is spamming.

    You are mistaken, and David is correct.

    While you are yet another fucking idiot who cannot smell shit when you step on it.

    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of
    reason and can safely be ignored.

    And politeness is simply over:

    No. It costs nothing to be polite.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Mon Dec 6 09:00:11 2021
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of reason and can safely be ignored.


    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the
    Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).

    A quick look at the history in this group shows that Julio has been
    making mostly on-topic and mostly polite posts for many years, most
    recently in September. Perhaps he's just having a tough time at the
    moment, and will be back to form again soon. (Politeness is not over,
    nor is mindless optimism :-) )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to David Brown on Mon Dec 6 00:05:17 2021
    On Monday, 6 December 2021 at 09:00:15 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of reason and can safely be ignored.

    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).

    A quick look at the history in this group shows that Julio has been
    making mostly on-topic and mostly polite posts for many years, most
    recently in September. Perhaps he's just having a tough time at the
    moment, and will be back to form again soon. (Politeness is not over,
    nor is mindless optimism :-) )

    "In September", bunch of mindless fucking clueless monsters...

    Fuck you, your empty skull, and the hypocritical bullshit that you'll keep spamming all over the globe...

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to David Brown on Mon Dec 6 08:17:51 2021
    On 06/12/2021 08:00, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of
    reason and can safely be ignored.


    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the
    Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).


    As is so often the case, I have by reading your article learned
    something new and fascinating.

    Please note, though, that if Loki and Angrboða wish to bring Jörmungandr
    to the UK they are going to need to obtain a licence. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2465/schedule/made for details.


    A quick look at the history in this group shows that Julio has been
    making mostly on-topic and mostly polite posts for many years, most
    recently in September.

    Will this damned September never end?


    Perhaps he's just having a tough time at the
    moment, and will be back to form again soon. (Politeness is not over,
    nor is mindless optimism :-) )

    A very gracious reply in the circumstances, and in my experience typical
    of you. It also gives the lie to Julio's outburst, which like you I am
    prepared to put down to a temporary aberration.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Mon Dec 6 00:20:43 2021
    On Monday, 6 December 2021 at 09:17:55 UTC+1, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 08:00, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of >> reason and can safely be ignored.


    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).
    As is so often the case, I have by reading your article learned
    something new and fascinating.

    Please note, though, that if Loki and Angrboða wish to bring Jörmungandr to the UK they are going to need to obtain a licence. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2465/schedule/made for details.

    A quick look at the history in this group shows that Julio has been
    making mostly on-topic and mostly polite posts for many years, most recently in September.
    Will this damned September never end?
    Perhaps he's just having a tough time at the
    moment, and will be back to form again soon. (Politeness is not over,
    nor is mindless optimism :-) )
    A very gracious reply in the circumstances, and in my experience typical
    of you. It also gives the lie to Julio's outburst, which like you I am prepared to put down to a temporary aberration.
    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    Usenet is a shithole since approx exactly that time, you permanently deranged nazi asshole.

    You've been warned, Richard and co.: STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS !

    Now let's see indeed...

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to Julio Di Egidio on Mon Dec 6 09:44:12 2021
    On 06/12/2021 08:20, Julio Di Egidio wrote:

    <snip>

    Usenet is a shithole since approx exactly that time, you permanently deranged nazi asshole.

    Well! Be that as it may, here's an early Christmas gift for you, David
    if he's still awake, or anyone else who likes puzzles.

    If you're bright you may find the numbers 31 and 41 to be helpful.

    RN7,uDb( [-Vu|upcf
    "7Mq|x+t 1w<W_Qy6tw
    ~}d7Q^<n vq:e!P-{!%
    EAu}h;O4 $rI2?XcPS

    yp;3G0: W6Gk< :!L1Cs?j[a*R7IyW$N3Eu>l#c)TF
    !1Cs>p+ CuCZ# DHx\o@f+W$N3Eu>l#c)T9K0B^P5R
    =%O4H1/ G0\pA /W$N3Eu>8JzB
    6x\o:l( Cw@T[ (Q?Gw<n'eCs?j[a*R7Iy|p;g=X%O4Fv,lJV

    ](S8L5, P9E4 Fp@T+ P7Pm| a-p:r ~h&E!

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    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Mon Dec 6 11:25:42 2021
    On 06/12/2021 09:17, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 08:00, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:

    Anyone who describes David Brown as such has clearly lost the faculty of >>> reason and can safely be ignored.


    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the
    Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).


    As is so often the case, I have by reading your article learned
    something new and fascinating.

    If you are interested in the Norse myths and legends - and there's lots
    of fun stuff in them - there are many versions available. They are
    mostly just translations of Snorre's writings and the few other written sources, so they are mostly the same (unless you go for one of the more academic books). You should find Neil Gaiman's "Norse Mythology" easily available. (I was a little disappointed in that, actually - I had hoped
    for more from him, given his other works. But as a re-telling of the traditional Norse myths, it is quite solid.)



    Please note, though, that if Loki and Angrboða wish to bring Jörmungandr
    to the UK they are going to need to obtain a licence. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/2465/schedule/made for details.

    They'll need their Covid vaccine certificates too...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Julio Di Egidio@21:1/5 to David Brown on Mon Dec 6 09:02:48 2021
    On Monday, 6 December 2021 at 11:25:46 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 09:17, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 08:00, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    <all relevant content already snipped by the OP>
    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the
    Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).

    As is so often the case, I have by reading your article learned
    something new and fascinating.

    If you are interested in the Norse myths and legends

    ...you should post somewhere else, you bloody clueless spamming morons.

    FYI, comp.misc is for chitchatting... HTH.

    Just get the fuck out of here.

    *Plonk*

    Julio

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to David Brown on Mon Dec 6 17:58:43 2021
    On 06/12/2021 17:51, David Brown wrote:

    <plonkers skipped>

    Most of us quite happily ignore plonkers, and will reply if the
    topic is of interest.

    I think I have something that could conceivably be of interest.

    But not in this thread, which now feels somewhat icky thanks to the
    plonker. I'll start afresh.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Heathfield@21:1/5 to Richard Heathfield on Mon Dec 6 18:05:40 2021
    On 06/12/2021 17:58, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 17:51, David Brown wrote:

    <plonkers skipped>

    Most of us quite happily ignore plonkers, and will reply if the
    topic is of interest.

    I think I have something that could conceivably be of interest.

    But not in this thread, which now feels somewhat icky thanks to the
    plonker. I'll start afresh.

    Ach! Forget it. It turns out I've (sort of) reinvented ANSI X9.23. Of
    interest, yes; new, no.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to Julio Di Egidio on Mon Dec 6 18:51:46 2021
    On 06/12/2021 18:02, Julio Di Egidio wrote:
    On Monday, 6 December 2021 at 11:25:46 UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 09:17, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    On 06/12/2021 08:00, David Brown wrote:
    On 05/12/2021 23:59, Richard Heathfield wrote:
    <all relevant content already snipped by the OP>
    Presumably now Julio will be plonking himself, somewhat like the
    Jörmungandr (the Midgard serpent from Norsk mythology).

    As is so often the case, I have by reading your article learned
    something new and fascinating.

    If you are interested in the Norse myths and legends

    ...you should post somewhere else, you bloody clueless spamming morons.

    FYI, comp.misc is for chitchatting... HTH.

    Just get the fuck out of here.

    *Plonk*

    Julio


    You keep claiming to "plonk" people, yet you keep replying to them. Are
    you having trouble using your Usenet client? You can ask for help here
    if you like. Or perhaps you just don't know what the word "plonk"
    means, any more than you know what spamming is (hint - no one here is
    trying to sell anything or advertise anything, so it is not spamming).

    Feel free to start a new on-topic thread. You have - or claim to have - killfiled most of the people who might have replied, but it is worth a
    shot. Most of us quite happily ignore plonkers, and will reply if the
    topic is of interest.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)