I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being spread out more evenly across Europe ?
At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bodø (or whatever the Swedish version of that is). :-)
On 10/25/2024 2:29 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
On 10/25/2024 8:05 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
Has anything of special interest been revealed at the Bootcamp ?
There will be a boot camp in Malmo, Sweden next May, and another boot
camp next year in the US around this same time next year.
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of resund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
(no practical impact - from Copenhagen to Malm is just 38 minutes
by train - and it is just 23 minutes from the airport to Malm
compared to the 15 minutes to Copenhagen)
On 10/28/2024 9:21 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more
central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being
spread out more evenly across Europe ?
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
But travel wise Malm is not bad. If you were to join then you
would make a very short flight London to Copenhagen, you land, you
walk through security, you jump on the train in the airport
and 25 minutes later you are in Malm.
At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bod (or whatever the Swedish
version of that is). :-)
You have something about Bod. Or in Swedish Bod.
On 2024-10-28, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
On 10/28/2024 9:21 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being >>> spread out more evenly across Europe ?
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries. I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries.
I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Sweden does have VMS users left. And so does the UK.
I believe VMS is mostly gone from Denmark. Despite once
being very widely used .
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 15:08 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
Sweden does have VMS users. But so does other European countries.
I
would expect UK to have more than Sweden. Bigger country.
That's what I thought as well.
Sweden does have VMS users left. And so does the UK.
I believe VMS is mostly gone from Denmark. Despite once
being very widely used .
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
On 28/10/2024 20:09, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 15:08 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 21:43 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist programme
of old is dead.
On 28/10/2024 23:17, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 21:43 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:
Back in the 80's and early 90's VMS was used by several
big manufacturing companies, 2 out of 3 telcos, 1 oil
company,
1 mid size bank, several parts of the government, lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist
programme
of old is dead.
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
On Tue, 2024-10-29 at 00:08 +0000, Chris Townley wrote:
On 28/10/2024 23:17, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
I only wish I could indulge it more often. But the hobbyist
programme
of old is dead.
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
I did. They acknowledged it, then nothing else happened.
On 10/28/2024 5:43 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
On 28/10/2024 20:09, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 15:08 -0400, Arne Vajhj wrote:
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.
Where I went:
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
* S2020 for spreadsheet
On 2024-10-28, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
On 10/28/2024 5:43 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
On 28/10/2024 20:09, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 15:08 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.
Where I went:
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}.
I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.
On 2024-10-28, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
On 10/28/2024 5:43 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
On 28/10/2024 20:09, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Mon, 2024-10-28 at 15:08 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
lots
of educational institutions (out of 9 big higher education
institutions, then 3 were VMS shops, 3 used VMS some places
and only 3 did not use VMS).
I developed an addiction to VMS at university during the 90s!
You obviously went to a good University!
VMS was pretty common back then.
Where I went:
* VMS Fortran for programming intro -> VMS Pascal for programming
* SAS on VMS for statistics
* Rdb for database
* DECtext for word processing -> WP 4.x on VMS for word processing
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}. I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.
Simon.
[“Reveal codes” is] difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are inherited through cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so
there isn't a direct mapping between the formatting of the display, and
the embedded charaters..
Have you thought of applying for the Ambassador role?
I did. They acknowledged it, then nothing else happened.
Did you get an email titled "Welcome to the OpenVMS Ambassador's
Program"? If so, there was a link in it that takes you to a page
where you E-Sign an agreement. If that doesn't get signed then it
stalls. If you didn't get that email (and it's not in SPAM or such)
then VSI is behind. again.
On 10/29/2024 9:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?
:-) :-) :-)
On 10/29/24 8:23 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
On 10/29/2024 9:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?
:-) :-) :-)
No one would willingly look at docx. But you can get something very
much like the old WordPerfect experience using a modern WYSIWIG XML
editor and a reasonable schema. See:
https://www.oxygenxml.com/xml_editor/WYSIWYG_Editors.html
On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 14:15:32 +0000, David Wade wrote:
[“Reveal codes” is] difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are
inherited through cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so
there isn't a direct mapping between the formatting of the display, and
the embedded charaters..
The only reason WordPerfect needed that feature was because it used
embedded formatting codes, which other word processors do not. So they
have no “codes” to “reveal”.
I believe ODF is a lot more human friendly than OOXML.
On 10/29/2024 4:42 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 14:15:32 +0000, David Wade wrote:
[“Reveal codes” is] difficult to do sensibly. Often the codes are
inherited through cascading styles, or by marking blocks of text, so
there isn't a direct mapping between the formatting of the display,
and the embedded charaters..
The only reason WordPerfect needed that feature was because it used
embedded formatting codes, which other word processors do not. So they
have no “codes” to “reveal”.
All word processors embed formatting codes.
On 10/29/2024 9:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
The last WP available for VMS was WP 5.{something}.
Yes. I even think we did update even though when that happened
people were in the process of moving to DOS.
DEC's own word processor was WPS. Under ALLIN1 or standalone.
I still miss not
having directly editable reveal codes as a standard feature in "modern"
word processors.
You don't feel tempted to edit the XML of today's word processors?
:-) :-) :-)
Yes - I liked that feature as well.
* S2020 for spreadsheet
Never heard of that one, but Lotus 1-2-3 was available for VMS.
I think it is this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20/20_(spreadsheet_software)
On 2024-10-25, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
On 10/25/2024 2:29 PM, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
On 10/25/2024 8:05 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
Has anything of special interest been revealed at the Bootcamp ?
There will be a boot camp in Malmo, Sweden next May, and another boot
camp next year in the US around this same time next year.
Thanks.
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
(no practical impact - from Copenhagen to Malmö is just 38 minutes
by train - and it is just 23 minutes from the airport to Malmö
compared to the 15 minutes to Copenhagen)
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
I know of the Swedish origins of VSI's backer, but even so and with all
other things being equal, I would have expected it to be held in a more central European country such as Germany or Austria in order to make
it easier for much more of Europe to attend.
Is the remaining European VMS userbase really so heavily weighted to a
single smaller (by population) Northern European country instead of being spread out more evenly across Europe ?
$ set response/mode=good_natured
At least they didn't decide to hold it in Bodø (or whatever the Swedish version of that is). :-)
Simon.
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and overpriced beer.
On 2024-10-25, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
I fear the reasons to have the bootcamp in Malm are a lot more
mundane than some of the theories I came across here.
Simon Clubley wrote:
On 2024-10-25, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
Curious.
Why the "wrong" side of Øresund?
Because there are still VMS users in Sweden and not in Denmark?
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
It's certainly a curious discussion that has spun up here :-)
I fear the reasons to have the bootcamp in Malmö are a lot more mundane
than some of the theories I came across here.
We just organized the first VMS bootcamp since 2017 in the US. For some reasons, we wanted it to be close to our office in Boston:
- easy access for our engineers to deliver presentations on various topics;
- easy access for our office staff who did a lot of the organizing, not
just during the bootcamp, but also in the weeks leading up to it for preparations.
These same considerations play a role as we prepare for the first ever
VMS bootcamp in Europe. While we have people all over Europe (including Germany, France, and yours truly in the Netherlands), we have offices
with a VMS engineering team in three places: Copenhagen (Denmark),
Yerevan (Armenia) and Athens (Greece). The team we have in Greece is
just getting started, and Yerevan is a little bit more difficult to get
to (fewer flights, often at inconvenient times).
That leaves Copenhagen. Unfortunately, organizing a conference in Copenhagen would be very expensive, both for us and for attendees.
Doing it in Malmö, we can probably cut the cost in half for both, and as Arne said, getting there from the airport takes only a few minutes longer.
That's about as poetic as I can make it :-)
It's unfashionable to do things for simple, sensible and pragmatic
reasons. Please carry on operating that way - it's refreshing in a world driven by popular delusion.
Perhaps they are avoiding France, due to Gerard "Asterix" Calliet, and his band of fiesty, plucky, gallant, Gauls, with gonadic gumption, in the VMSGenerations group, whom have been delivering a Grandparental Masterclass in Oeuf Husbandry, for going ona decade, in terms of industry self-organisation, and representation, to the VMS eco-system, generally, and in particular to the VMS anglosphere - providing leadership, and North Star navigation, on preferable outcomes for both the VMS eco-system, and
The sleek, lazy, domesticated, Sverige Vikings, are, perhaps, easier to wrangle.
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and overpriced beer.
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
resund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?
On 2024-11-02, Subcommandante XDelta <vlf@star.enet.dec.com> wrote:on a decade, in terms of industry self-organisation, and representation, to the VMS eco-system, generally, and in particular to the VMS anglosphere - providing leadership, and North Star navigation, on preferable outcomes for both the VMS eco-system, and
Perhaps they are avoiding France, due to Gerard "Asterix" Calliet, and his band of fiesty, plucky, gallant, Gauls, with gonadic gumption, in the VMSGenerations group, whom have been delivering a Grandparental Masterclass in Oeuf Husbandry, for going
$ set response/mode=very_good_natured
You are Kamala Harris and I claim my 5 pounds. :-)
IOW, nice word salad. I will be worried if the day comes when I can understand the above. :-)
On 2024-11-03, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
Øresund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?
Interesting. I knew it wasn't cheap, but I didn't realise Copenhagen
was so expensive.
How does it compare to, say, Zürich ?
On 11/4/2024 8:19 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
On 2024-11-03, Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
So the short answer is that the bootcamp is on the "wrong" side of
resund because the hotel prices in Copenhagen are legal highway
robbery?
Interesting. I knew it wasn't cheap, but I didn't realise Copenhagen
was so expensive.
How does it compare to, say, Zrich ?
I just knew that Copenhagen was expensive. I have never stayed
in Zurich.
But I tried looking up a random hotel chain (Radisson) for a
random day (December 8th) and I saw:
Zurich 93 USD
Malm 95 USD
London (Heathrow) 112 USD
Copenhagen (Amager) 117 USD
Copenhagen (Center) 197 USD
London (Leicester Sq) 254 USD
London (Mercer St) 262 USD
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 09:55:35 +1100, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
France has better food and wine, compared to Swedish meatballs, and
overpriced beer.
The paradox of the Mediterranean diet: low heart disease, high liver
disease.
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.
Scott Dorsey wrote:
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion
of other European countries.
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.
At least it met with more success than their previous plan of offering Surstrmming! :-) :-) :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming
On 2025-03-01, Alan Frisbie <Usenet03_REMOVE@flying-disk.com> wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:
I am curious why VSI are so heavily focused on Sweden to the exclusion >>>> of other European countries.
3. Their plan to offer salmiakki with software distribution CDs was
not successful in most other countries.
At least it met with more success than their previous plan of offering
Surströmming! :-) :-) :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_ from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Simon.
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
On 3/4/2025 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_
from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they >like it.
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 3/4/2025 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_ >>> from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled. --scott
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 3/4/2025 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_ >>> from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled. --scott
In article <vqas2l$2lru6$1@dont-email.me>, davef@tsoft-inc.com (Dave
Froble) wrote:
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to recover.
On 3/8/2025 8:03 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 3/4/2025 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
I wonder how long it is going to be before nobody wants to buy _anything_ >>>> from a US company given just how toxic and untrustworthy the US has
become over the last month ? :-(
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him will equire much
pain before they realize just what idiots they are. He lies to them, and they
like it.
Unfortunately, as Simon has suggested might happen, we have Europeans
boycotting American products over the bad decisions made by our
government. I just had a $6k order from my European dealer cancelled.
--scott
Good! The idiots will require much pain before they turn on Donald.
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern high-performance processors without critical European technology...
On 2025-03-06, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
In article <vqas2l$2lru6$1@dont-email.me>, davef@tsoft-inc.com (Dave
Froble) wrote:
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern >high-performance processors without critical European technology...
On 3/10/2025 14:25, Simon Clubley wrote:
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
On 3/10/2025 14:25, Simon Clubley wrote:
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
BTW, I wonder if Trump realises that you can't even make modern high-performance processors without critical European technology...
In article <vqnare$1fru0$1@dont-email.me>, >clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:
BTW, I wonder if Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wonder if Trump understands what processors are even for?
On 2025-03-06, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
In article <vqas2l$2lru6$1@dont-email.me>, davef@tsoft-inc.com (Dave
Froble) wrote:
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern high-performance processors without critical European technology...
On 3/10/2025 2:25 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
On 2025-03-06, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
In article <vqas2l$2lru6$1@dont-email.me>, davef@tsoft-inc.com (Dave
Froble) wrote:
Hey! It ain't the USA. It's Trump and his minions.
Who have control of the executive, and are doing lots of damage.
But, yeah, don't patronize them. The idiots that voted for him
will equire much pain before they realize just what idiots they
are. He lies to them, and they like it.
Yup. And this can happen again, in a few years. Trust will be hard to
recover.
I think these actions have broken the trust relationship with Europe
for at least the next several decades due to the fact that even if
you get a decent team in, they can still be kicked out in 4 years time.
Isn't that everywhere, well, except for Russia, China, and such dictatorships?
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
You give the idiot way too much credit.
But the pain is on it's way.
Ontario is adding a 25% surcharge to electricity sold across the border.
:-)
The stock markets are tanking ....
Perhaps it's time to consider recalling Trump?
But the pain is on it's way.
Ontario is adding a 25% surcharge to electricity sold across the border.
:-)
The stock markets are tanking ....
Perhaps it's time to consider recalling Trump?
Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not being used in
the US also does not seem fitting.
There is no option for recalling the president in the US.
The options in the constitution are:
* impeachment (simple majority house + 2/3 majority senate)
* 25th amendment (VP + majority of cabinet ministers, and if
the president appeal 2/3 majority of both house and senate)
The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy. It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 21:41:37 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
On 3/10/2025 9:03 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it
just takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the
Government.
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find a PM. After
the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months to agree on a
PM/government. After the election in the Netherlands in 2023 it took 6
months. After the election in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months.
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?
Actually I think proportional representation is wonderful. We adopted it
here in NZ, based on the German system. I think the longest it took us to form a Government was 6 weeks (from the first election under the new
system, in 1996); typically it takes more like 3 weeks.
On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 19:51:20 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
There is no option for recalling the president in the US.
The options in the constitution are:
* impeachment (simple majority house + 2/3 majority senate)
* 25th amendment (VP + majority of cabinet ministers, and if
the president appeal 2/3 majority of both house and senate)
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it just takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the Government.
On 3/10/2025 9:03 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
Things seem so much easier in Parliamentary systems, don’t they: it
just takes a vote of no confidence in Parliament to bring down the
Government.
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find a PM. After
the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months to agree on a
PM/government. After the election in the Netherlands in 2023 it took 6 months. After the election in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months.
On 3/10/2025 7:46 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy. It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
In 2016 he did not get the most votes (he got 63M
while Hilary got 66M).
But in 2024 he did get the most votes (he got 77M while
Kamala got 75M).
Mr. sofa got 91M and 87M respectively in those two elections.
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?
I wonder if Mr Trump would ever go before Congress once a week and
answer questions put directly to him by the Democrats ? Somehow,
I suspect the answer is no. :-)
On 3/10/2025 14:25, Simon Clubley wrote:
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find
a PM. After the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months
to agree on a PM/government. After the election in the
Netherlands in 2023 it took 6 months. After the election
in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months. Given how the US
congress typical (recent years) handle budget and debt limit
increase, then I suspect that if the US congress elected
the US president then the position would be empty half the time.
On 2025-03-10, Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
It is easier to get rid of a prime minister in that system.
But there is also a flip side. It can be difficult to find
a PM. After the election in Sweden in 2018 it took 4 months
to agree on a PM/government. After the election in the
Netherlands in 2023 it took 6 months. After the election
in Belgium in 2024 it took 8 months. Given how the US
congress typical (recent years) handle budget and debt limit
increase, then I suspect that if the US congress elected
the US president then the position would be empty half the time.
I don't know if this applies to other Parliamentary systems, but
here in the UK, the Prime Minister has to go to Parliament once
a week and answer questions from opposition leaders. In addition,
some normal MPs also get the chance to directly ask the PM questions
and to make the PM justify decisions that they have made.
I wonder if Mr Trump would ever go before Congress once a week and
answer questions put directly to him by the Democrats ? Somehow,
I suspect the answer is no. :-)
On 2025-03-10, Robert A. Brooks <FIRST.LAST@vmssoftware.com> wrote:
On 3/10/2025 14:25, Simon Clubley wrote:
BTW, I wonder if Mr Trump realises that you can't even make modern
high-performance processors without critical European technology...
I wouldn't give him the respect that the honorific "Mr" conveys.
Over here, it's just a polite way some people use to refer to someone
in a neutral way in situations like this. No respect is intended by
the use of the word "Mr".
OTOH, there is/was a use that is directly applicable here. :-) I don't
know if they still do it these days, but in times gone by some teachers
would talk to a misbehaving child in this way:
"Mr Smith." <slight pause> "What makes you think _that_ was acceptable ?"
On 3/10/2025 19:46, Dan Cross wrote:
Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.
Well said!
Robert A. Brooks <FIRST.LAST@vmssoftware.com> wrote:
On 3/10/2025 19:46, Dan Cross wrote:
Trust me, to our European friends reading this, no matter how
upset you are over this actions, those of us who stand opposed
to him right here in the US are even more so.
Well said!
And not only that, we can't even get the Lindt salty licorice chocolate
bars.
--scott
On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 15:22:53 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not being used in
the US also does not seem fitting.
They're not supposed to have honorifics in the US. But then they end up referring to ex-politicians by their last-held title, e.g. living ex- Presidents continue to be titled as "President".
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
On Mon, 10 Mar 2025 15:22:53 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
Simon did not use "The Rt Hon" Trump. Which besides not being used in
the US also does not seem fitting.
They're not supposed to have honorifics in the US. But then they end up
referring to ex-politicians by their last-held title, e.g. living ex-
Presidents continue to be titled as "President".
Which is something that changed in my lifetime. Before Reagan, ex-Presidents >were addressed by the highest non-presidential title they held, or simply "Mr."
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but
don’t even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get
bored of them?
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t >even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of >them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently >witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case >(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v. >subject-relevant content.
;-)
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but
don’t even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get
bored of them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present
case (though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at
least a tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat
c.o.v. subject-relevant content.
;-)
All using proportional representation? Didn’t one prior Belgian election spend all except the last few months of the entire term trying to come to
a coalition deal?
I?m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don?t even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we?ve very frequently
witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case (though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a
tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v. subject-relevant content.
;-)
In article <vqquh9$2a8en$1@dont-email.me>,
Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t >>even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of >>them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently >>witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case >>(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a >>tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v. >>subject-relevant content.
;-)
You know, it's funny. I've spent a lot of time over the last 8
years thinking about echo chambers, because it seemed so utterly
improbable that the American public could vote Donald Trump into
the presidency, not once, but twice. Surely his obvious lying,
his transparent grifting, his shameless and lifelong tendency to
take advantage of others was so clear that no one would take him
seriously, let alone vote for him. And yet, here we are.
So I have to ask myself, seriously, "do all those people see
something that I don't?" And, "am I the one that's wrong?"
After all, how would I know if I was, in fact, living in an echo
chamber.
On 2025-03-12, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
In article <vqquh9$2a8en$1@dont-email.me>,
Anonymous <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t
even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of >>>them?
;-)
Of course, since the earliest years of c.o.v we’ve very frequently >>>witnessed their formation here. Maybe more often than in the present case >>>(though this topic is small, historically speaking), with at least a >>>tendency to have a continuing sub-thread at of least somewhat c.o.v. >>>subject-relevant content.
;-)
You know, it's funny. I've spent a lot of time over the last 8
years thinking about echo chambers, because it seemed so utterly
improbable that the American public could vote Donald Trump into
the presidency, not once, but twice. Surely his obvious lying,
his transparent grifting, his shameless and lifelong tendency to
take advantage of others was so clear that no one would take him
seriously, let alone vote for him. And yet, here we are.
So I have to ask myself, seriously, "do all those people see
something that I don't?" And, "am I the one that's wrong?"
After all, how would I know if I was, in fact, living in an echo
chamber.
One of the things I do to make sure I never fall into this trap is to
expose myself to sources of information or viewpoints I strongly disagree >with, to make sure they don't reveal something that my normal sources of >information have "forgotten" to mention.
It helps you to understand what others are thinking and to help you build
a well-rounded model of reality instead of your reality been based on one >specific set of views.
It would be nice if Mr Trump's supporters could do the same.
On 3/10/2025 7:46 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
The reality is that _most_ Americans can't stand the guy. It's
just that the way that our weird (and arguably messed up)
electoral system works that allowed a minority to vote him into
office.
In 2016 he did not get the most votes (he got 63M
while Hilary got 66M).
But in 2024 he did get the most votes (he got 77M while
Kamala got 75M).
Mr. sofa got 91M and 87M respectively in those two elections.
Arne
I’m not objecting to any specific post or topic in this thread, but don’t >even people who occasionally enjoy echo chambers eventually get bored of >them?
;-)
I am only reading this thread in hopes of someone mentioning semlor and toscakaka.
One of the things I do to make sure I never fall into this trap is to
expose myself to sources of information or viewpoints I strongly disagree with, to make sure they don't reveal something that my normal sources of information have "forgotten" to mention.
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