• Re: VSI OpenVMS Community License

    From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 14:37:25 2024
    On 26/03/2024 14:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    Actually I am not surprised. There have been a lot of VMS newbies
    recently on the VSI forum, asking endless basic questions without even
    trying to look in the manuals, and a fair number of responses from both
    VSI and the community

    However it is a real shame, as such people could well move into VMS
    jobs, and spread the word

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 26 14:26:51 2024
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Jordan@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 10:29:13 2024
    On 3/26/24 9:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist systems
    are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 07:12:31 2024
    In article <35b8ef5d-a3b2-4d03-9b43-73b2196374df@cropcircledogs.com>, usenet@cropcircledogs.com says...

    On 3/26/24 9:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist systems
    are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    I could perhaps handle loosing Alpha if we weren't also loosing x86.

    A fresh vmdk once a year is not an acceptable solution. I'm not setting
    up a fresh VM every year, its not worth the effort.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 18:43:04 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
    On 26/03/2024 14:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    Actually I am not surprised. There have been a lot of VMS newbies
    recently on the VSI forum, asking endless basic questions without even
    trying to look in the manuals, and a fair number of responses from both
    VSI and the community

    However it is a real shame, as such people could well move into VMS
    jobs, and spread the word


    One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
    which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Single Stage to Orbit@21:1/5 to Richard Jordan on Tue Mar 26 18:09:25 2024
    On Tue, 2024-03-26 at 10:29 -0500, Richard Jordan wrote:
    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point.  Both my hobbyist
    systems are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they don't
    mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm that.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 07:44:24 2024
    In article <utulvc$1pmvc$1@dont-email.me>, news@cct-net.co.uk says...

    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    I think the community license/hobbyist program has officially ended -
    the x86 vmdks are something entirely different and a continuation of
    that student thing they were doing before.

    Going to be interesting to see what sort of damage this does to OpenVMS.
    I suspect their "community engagement" is going to pretty much disappear entirely as a result of this which may put the long-term future of
    OpenVMS at risk.

    Could do some significant damage to any open-source packages that aren't
    being directly maintained by VSI themselves too. And not just on Alpha
    and Itanium - I don't think I'd bother porting/maintaining stuff if its
    not going to be used outside of perhaps a few commercial users even if I
    could use the Ambassador program to do it at no cost.

    And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
    program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
    software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
    an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
    to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 18:36:22 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> wrote:
    On 26/03/2024 14:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    Actually I am not surprised. There have been a lot of VMS newbies
    recently on the VSI forum, asking endless basic questions without even
    trying to look in the manuals, and a fair number of responses from both
    VSI and the community

    However it is a real shame, as such people could well move into VMS
    jobs, and spread the word


    Nothing that I am about to say changes the fact this is VSI's product
    and it is for them to decide who can get access to it and under what conditions. There is no legitimate justification for any thinking that
    we are "somehow" entitled to get free or low-cost access to anything
    that VSI produces.

    Having said that, IMHO, while I can understand some of the thinking based
    on what I am seeing in the forum that Chris references above, this is a
    really big mistake for VSI to do this at this point, when the product set
    is not yet complete for x86-64 VMS (ie: BASIC).

    If they want to discontinue free access to Alpha and IA64, then it should
    also have been done with some notice to any new people wanting to sign up
    today (as was done by HPE with VAX/VMS) and not simply hard-reject any newcomers as they have decided to do. On the plus side, they are implementing
    a HPE-style incremental phase-out for existing community members, which
    is good to see.

    Based on some of the things I am reading in the forum, I can well understand why a pre-built image is a highly desirable option for some in VSI, but it's not clear if a traditional ISO image will continue to be offered (it appears
    it _may_ not be), which would be a mistake.

    This ISO would give people practice with configuring VMS from the ground up
    and give them exposure to the issues involved when managing VMS in a
    production environment.

    It is also not clear if additional Layered Products will be available for download and installation into this pre-built image.

    One final thought: when the licence in this pre-built image expires, can
    we simply download a new licence into our existing pre-built image or do
    we need to download a new pre-built image every time, then need to customise this new pre-built image from scratch once agin ?

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 08:22:40 2024
    In article <70e8c2eb1369b2588aaac157c331a64440d8a3b8.camel@munted.eu>, alex.buell@munted.eu says...

    On Tue, 2024-03-26 at 10:29 -0500, Richard Jordan wrote:
    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist
    systems are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they don't mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm that.

    I think it is very very safe to assume they are not open-ended. They're
    giving Alpha and Itanium hobbyists a year to move off of OpenVMS.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 16:01:42 2024
    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
    * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms
    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
    increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
    platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
    and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
    license is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
    the new community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
    because they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
    new community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 09:13:46 2024
    In article <utv9j6$2asrl$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk says...

    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms
    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
    platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
    and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador license is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
    the new community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
    because they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
    new community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
    a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?

    Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
    and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Tue Mar 26 20:20:00 2024
    On 26/03/2024 20:13, David Goodwin wrote:
    In article <utv9j6$2asrl$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk says...

    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/ >>
    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
    * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms
    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
    increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
    platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
    and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
    license is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
    the new community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
    because they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
    new community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
    a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?

    Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
    and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.

    Especially as the don't send out the X86 licenses - just one file on the
    portal

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 26 16:24:42 2024
    On 3/26/2024 4:01 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and licensed >> VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
    * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms
    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
    platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
    and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador license
    is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to the new community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out because they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the new community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    Arne

    Yeah, not what I feel is in any way positive.

    What? Everyone thought VSI was going to be another DEC?

    David has some things to be thankful for ...

    Perpetual VAX license running on a VAXstation 4000 model 90A
    Perpetual Alpha license running VMS V8.3 on an AlphaServer 800
    Perpetual itanic license running on the boat anchor (not powered up for at least
    a year)

    No longer doing software work ...

    :-)

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Tue Mar 26 20:48:10 2024
    On 26/03/2024 20:24, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 4:01 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed
    VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:

    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
      - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
      - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk
    image
    * new VMS ambassador license
      - with obligations to contribute
      - license for all 3 platforms
      - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
    increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
      platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
      and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
    license
    is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
    the new
    community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
    because
    they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
    new
    community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    Arne

    Yeah, not what I feel is in any way positive.

    What?  Everyone thought VSI was going to be another DEC?

    David has some things to be thankful for ...

    Perpetual VAX license running on a VAXstation 4000 model 90A
    Perpetual Alpha license running VMS V8.3 on an AlphaServer 800
    Perpetual itanic license running on the boat anchor (not powered up for
    at least a year)

    No longer doing software work ...

    :-)


    I might try to bring back to life my old firms development Vax and
    Alpha. Some perpetual licenses there, albeit slow.

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Tue Mar 26 17:05:21 2024
    On 3/26/2024 4:13 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
    In article <utv9j6$2asrl$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk says...

    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/ >>
    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image >> * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms
    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
    increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
    platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
    and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
    license is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
    the new community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
    because they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
    new community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
    a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?

    Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
    and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.


    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has been plenty of interest? And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?

    The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that understanding?

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 17:10:04 2024
    On 3/26/2024 4:48 PM, Chris Townley wrote:

    I might try to bring back to life my old firms development Vax and Alpha. Some
    perpetual licenses there, albeit slow.


    I have to ask, slow for what? I assume you're not doing commercial work. Yeah,
    not the latest stuff, but, plenty for hobbyist stuff.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Matthew R. Wilson@21:1/5 to Richard Jordan on Tue Mar 26 21:21:50 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Richard Jordan <usenet@cropcircledogs.com> wrote:
    On 3/26/24 9:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist systems
    are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    The loss of Alpha (and Integrity, although far fewer people collected
    Itanium hardware) is about as relevant/damaging as the loss of the VAX
    hobbyist program: almost not at all.

    It's trivial to generate your own licenses a number of ways, so you can continue to use it in perpetuity. And since it was already pretty much
    the "honor system" to not use your hobbyist licenses for commercial
    purposes, I have no ethical or moral qualms with the idea of using
    OpenVMS on VAX or Alpha for personal self-education and history of
    computing hobbyist purposes.

    The access to the software itself was already at the point where, like
    VAX, it seemed frozen in time for historical systems. Even though VSI
    is, to my understanding, providing occasional updates to commercial
    Alpha customers, the version available on the community SFTP server has
    been the same for quite a while. Which is fine: VMS on Alpha is mature,
    stable software and for most permitted uses (hobbyist non-commercial
    use), I wouldn't expect to drop a system out on the open internet, so
    even a lack of security patches hasn't worried me.

    Anyway, hypothetically my VAX and Alpha could continue to run for my own
    fun for many years to come, and I almost feel like while of course they
    can't say it / encourage it, VSI is unceremoniously dropping the Alpha
    and Integrity community programs because they know the enthusiast
    community will take care of themselves and hush-hush wink-wink while
    keeping it going behind the scenes for those who are really interested.

    The loss of real installation media and LP kits for x86, though, is the
    big loss here. While the relevance of VMS for x86 was already
    questionable for anything beyond being a lifeline for companies still
    stuck on VMS for one reason or another (from a hobbyist perspective, a
    ton of the fun software never even made the jump from Alpha to Itanium,
    let alone from Itanium to x86), it was fun to imagine a potential uptick
    in interest in VMS due to being able to run (somewhat) easily on
    hardware everyone has. The idea of downloading a pre-installed OS disk
    image is of zero interest to me, so VMS for x86 will just fade back into
    the abyss from which it recently emerged.

    I get why VSI doesn't want to bother with any of this, though. Their
    business perspective makes sense. Nothing is going to generate new
    business interest in OpenVMS. No software company is going to make a new product for OpenVMS. The entire thing only exists to keep customers who
    are stuck on it going, and at the moment there is still enough money
    there to sustain a business on providing that legacy system to those
    companies. Even the best community program in the world isn't going to
    change the fact that greenfield development on OpenVMS just isn't going
    to happen. Customers are using it to keep running their line-of-business critical in-house BASIC programs that store data in Rdb, etc. So why
    would VSI care about trying to make stuff that only hobbyists want work?

    I do find it kind of funny, though, that apparently they thought lots of
    open source projects would be inspired to put time and effort into
    getting their code to work on VMS x86, a closed-source, proprietary
    operating system, just because a non-commercial, non-perpetual, hit-or-miss-whether-the-form-to-request-it-will-even-work-and-if-you'll- ever-make-it-to-the-top-of-the-queue was available. If that's what they
    thought the benefit of the community program was -- that they could get
    other people to do work for free for them to turn around and use as justification for customers to stay on their proprietary platform and
    keep paying them to move forward on VMS for x86 -- then yeah, of course
    that vision of the community program failed!

    Alas, the history of computing is littered with significant, important historical software fading away into the sunset because the current
    ownership is responsible for profits, not historical preservation and
    community sustainability. The good news in this case is that VMS across
    all of its important architectures is very well preserved and we don't
    need VSI or anyone else to keep it going among those who are truly
    interested and passionate.

    If any of the above seems overly harsh or pessimistic... well, yeah, I'm reacting to disappointing news and am certainly in a mental state
    reflecting that.

    But I'm also a realist and this ain't my first rodeo.

    -Matthew

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 10:19:27 2024
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>, davef@tsoft-inc.com says...

    On 3/26/2024 4:13 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
    In article <utv9j6$2asrl$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk says...

    On 3/26/2024 10:26 AM, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image
    * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms
    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.

    And I suspect that the change will reduce community contributions not
    increase them.

    In reality the changes could also be described differently:
    * student license is being renamed to community license and
    platform upgraded from Alpha to x86-64
    * community license is being renamed to VMS ambassador license
    and with a specific requirement for contributions

    But the student license was never popular as far as I can tell
    and the VMS ambassador requirements will scare people.

    So my best guess is that if we look at 1000 communityt license users,
    then we will see:

    25 that has been contributing and will switch to VMS ambassador license
    25 that has been contributing but will drop out because VMS ambassador
    license is not for them
    400 that has been running VMS on Alpha and will drop out
    100 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will switch to
    the new community license
    200 that are oldtimers interested in VMS on x86-64 and will drop out
    because they don't like images
    250 that are newcomers interested in VMS x86-64 and will switch to the
    new community license

    or:

    25 VMS ambassador licenses
    350 new community license
    625 drop outs

    with:

    50% reduction in contributors
    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics >>
    But I could be wrong, but that is what I predict.

    And that is pretty bad!!!!

    I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
    a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?

    Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
    and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.


    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
    been plenty of interest? And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?

    The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that understanding?

    I'd gladly buy non-expiring non-commercial VAX/Alpha/x86 licenses for a reasonable price, like what HP/Compaq did for Tru64. Sadly that option
    is not being offered.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Duff@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Wed Mar 27 09:39:25 2024
    On 27/3/24 01:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    *I'm* certainly confused. The email says "Your current license is valid through August 22, 2024", however

    https://sp.vmssoftware.com/#/packages/676

    says "x86 community licenses good through April 1, 2024", agreeing with
    what licence list says. That's five days away for those of us on this
    side of the dateline. I'm trying to avoid making April Fool's references.

    --
    eight-cubed.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From motk@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Wed Mar 27 09:09:20 2024
    On 3/27/24 00:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...



    It's dead. They just killed VMS - there's no way you can do anything
    useful with VMS anymore, there's no pipeline for new users. New owners
    are just going to do the broadcom extract-maxiumum-gravy thing. I
    wondered why my community license was taking seven months to provision.
    "Long waiting list" my buttocks.

    If you're using VMS in production, it's beyond time to find an alternative.

    If you can't abide newbies, you don't deserve a motivated base.Dropping
    a once-a-year toy version is 1990 nonsense.

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Craig A. Berry@21:1/5 to Jim Duff on Tue Mar 26 18:01:53 2024
    On 3/26/24 5:39 PM, Jim Duff wrote:
    On 27/3/24 01:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    *I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is valid through August 22, 2024"

    Which e-mail would that be? The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
    and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
    that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
    more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

    , however

    https://sp.vmssoftware.com/#/packages/676

    says "x86 community licenses good through April 1, 2024", agreeing with
    what licence list says.  That's five days away for those of us on this
    side of the dateline.

    So far the x86 license seems to go mostly by field test practices and
    they have a PAK on the portal. I've been assuming that would change
    sometime soon to how community has been working, but with the plug being
    pulled on that, it's an open question how and when there will be another
    PAK for OpenVMS x86. We've been told that at some point there will be
    this vmdk thing, but whether that's effective *now* with no other
    options, or whether there will be one more PAK on the portal, or what,
    is not something I've seen mentioned.

      I'm trying to avoid making April Fool's references.

    Go ahead and send around an announcement that your patch syndication
    service is back online :-). While we're lamenting things that were good
    while they lasted :-(.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From motk@21:1/5 to motk on Wed Mar 27 09:13:50 2024
    On 3/27/24 09:09, motk wrote:
    On 3/27/24 00:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...



    It's dead. They just killed VMS - there's no way you can do anything
    useful with VMS anymore, there's no pipeline for new users. New owners
    are just going to do the broadcom extract-maxiumum-gravy thing. I
    wondered why my community license was taking seven months to provision.
    "Long waiting list" my buttocks.

    If you're using VMS in production, it's beyond time to find an alternative.

    If you can't abide newbies, you don't deserve a motivated base.Dropping
    a once-a-year toy version is 1990 nonsense.


    And a final thought - the Ambassador tier is just a way to extract
    commercial value from the remaining die-hards. Harsh of me to say
    perhaps but this is pathetic, and they've just poured forty years of
    goodwill down the sink.

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Matthew R. Wilson on Tue Mar 26 23:04:25 2024
    On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 21:21:50 -0000 (UTC), Matthew R. Wilson wrote:

    ... it was fun to imagine a potential uptick
    in interest in VMS due to being able to run (somewhat) easily on
    hardware everyone has.

    You always could, with SIMH.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From motk@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 09:18:07 2024
    On 3/27/24 04:44, David Goodwin wrote:

    And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
    program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
    software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
    an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
    to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".

    What ecosystem? A newsgroup? A few barely-maintained websites? The VSI
    forums, where Mister Moderator clomps in at the slightest hint that
    people may not be devoting their free time Generating Commerical Value
    for VSI?

    Ooooh, I'm cross. Vexxed, even.

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From motk@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 09:31:28 2024
    On 3/27/24 06:01, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    no change in number of newcomers needing a lot of handhelding with basics

    Handholding newbies is the price you pay for outreach. You solve that
    with decent documentation, real examples, and so on. It's a good problem
    to have!

    When all your remaining problems are things like "I can't get my ancient
    code I refuse to bring up from K&R to compile, bah" then you have an
    actual problem, and that's been ignored for years.

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Duff@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Wed Mar 27 10:53:26 2024
    On 27/3/24 10:01, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/26/24 5:39 PM, Jim Duff wrote:
    On 27/3/24 01:26, Chris Townley wrote:
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...


    *I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
    valid through August 22, 2024"

    Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
    and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
    that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
    more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

    I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
    your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
    referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
    x86_64.


    , however

    https://sp.vmssoftware.com/#/packages/676

    says "x86 community licenses good through April 1, 2024", agreeing
    with what licence list says.  That's five days away for those of us on
    this side of the dateline.

    So far the x86 license seems to go mostly by field test practices and
    they have a PAK on the portal.  I've been assuming that would change sometime soon to how community has been working, but with the plug being pulled on that, it's an open question how and when there will be another
    PAK for OpenVMS x86. We've been told that at some point there will be
    this vmdk thing, but whether that's effective *now* with no other
    options, or whether there will be one more PAK on the portal, or what,
    is not something I've seen mentioned.


    Hence my pointing out the (implied) gap between 01-Apr and
    22-Aug for x86.

      I'm trying to avoid making April Fool's references.

    Go ahead and send around an announcement that your patch syndication
    service is back online :-).  While we're lamenting things that were good while they lasted :-(.



    Here we are nearly 14 years after I was forced to kill the patch
    syndication feeds, and I don't know how many years after the Sydney CSC
    stopped providing the patch list, and there is *still* no way to
    automatically retrieve a list of patches for your version of VMS.

    --
    eight-cubed.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From babydr DBA James W. Laferriere@21:1/5 to Chris Townley via Info-vax on Tue Mar 26 12:48:01 2024
    Hello All , Following on after Arne's response (that I agree with in essesence) , Tho a note from in the application struck my interest ...

    vvvvvvvvv
    "Please note that it is not currently possible to get a community license for Alpha or Integrity. If you are an OpenVMS Ambassador, you are welcome to apply here."
    The key work is 'currently' , this leads one to beleive that there may
    (Or should one say Will) Be a Continuing Community license program in the future
    ?
    Let us hope at least a little bit .

    twyl , JimL
    --
    +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
    | James W. Laferriere | System Techniques | Give me VMS |
    | Network & System Engineer | 3237 Holden Road | Give me Linux |
    | jiml@system-techniques.com | Fairbanks, AK. 99709 | only on AXP | +---------------------------------------------------------------------+

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Wed Mar 27 00:01:37 2024
    On 26/03/2024 21:10, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 4:48 PM, Chris Townley wrote:

    I might try to bring back to life my old firms development Vax and
    Alpha. Some
    perpetual licenses there, albeit slow.


    I have to ask, slow for what?  I assume you're not doing commercial
    work.  Yeah, not the latest stuff, but, plenty for hobbyist stuff.

    I have enjoyed VMS X86 - I spent £650+ on hardware to run it, and apart
    from certain missing elements it has been fun - I was looking forward to getting Basic (and LSE) and hopefully providing good/positive feedback

    To go back to a VAX, or even the alpha with only a few compiler licenses
    on hardware that is very old and slow, Not even sure if I will be bothered

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Robert A. Brooks@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Tue Mar 26 20:06:03 2024
    On 3/26/2024 2:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

    One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
    which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

    As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon), I'll make sure that EISNER is taken care of.

    --

    --- Rob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From motk@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Mar 27 09:15:13 2024
    On 3/27/24 04:43, Simon Clubley wrote:

    One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
    which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

    Unless they jump through hoops for the Ambassador license tier, or run
    the the naughty C program that generates keys, they're dead. And by design.

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to Robert A. Brooks on Wed Mar 27 00:18:48 2024
    On 27/03/2024 00:06, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 2:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

    One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
    which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

    As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon), I'll
    make sure that EISNER is taken care of.


    Not that I have used it for years, but many thanks!

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Single Stage to Orbit@21:1/5 to Robert A. Brooks on Wed Mar 27 00:24:44 2024
    On Tue, 2024-03-26 at 20:06 -0400, Robert A. Brooks wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 2:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

    One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like
    Eisner, which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

    As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon),
    I'll make sure that EISNER is taken care of.

    I appreciate that, thanks.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Single Stage to Orbit@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 00:17:50 2024
    On Wed, 2024-03-27 at 07:12 +1300, David Goodwin wrote:
    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point.  Both my hobbyist
    systems
    are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but
    not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    I could perhaps handle loosing Alpha if we weren't also loosing x86.

    A fresh vmdk once a year is not an acceptable solution. I'm not
    setting up a fresh VM every year, its not worth the effort.

    THey didn't say anything about closing the VSI service panel?
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Single Stage to Orbit@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 00:16:29 2024
    On Wed, 2024-03-27 at 08:22 +1300, David Goodwin wrote:
    They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they
    don't mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm
    that.

    I think it is very very safe to assume they are not open-ended.
    They're giving Alpha and Itanium hobbyists a year to move off of
    OpenVMS.

    I think some people would want to hang onto their VAX/Alpha
    installations. Don't really care about TItanic though.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 13:37:27 2024
    In article <bc05184eff3c8837b48cb6895d7018c256f7694f.camel@munted.eu>, alex.buell@munted.eu says...

    On Wed, 2024-03-27 at 08:22 +1300, David Goodwin wrote:
    They said they would be issuing final licences in 2025. But they
    don't mention if they are open ended or not. They need to confirm
    that.

    I think it is very very safe to assume they are not open-ended.
    They're giving Alpha and Itanium hobbyists a year to move off of
    OpenVMS.

    I think some people would want to hang onto their VAX/Alpha
    installations. Don't really care about TItanic though.

    I'm sure they would, but VAX hobbyists were not given this option and I
    see no indication that Alpha will be any different. I guess hobbyists
    who want to keep their Alpha installations running now have the same
    options available to them as VAX hobbyists.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 13:32:57 2024
    In article <e4b10507871cedc5824fe92241596d46edc4f89d.camel@munted.eu>, alex.buell@munted.eu says...

    On Wed, 2024-03-27 at 07:12 +1300, David Goodwin wrote:
    Losing the Alpha option is my real pain point. Both my hobbyist
    systems
    are Alphas (DS10 and PWS-600au).

    The fact that they are summarily rejecting already submitted (but
    not
    yet approved) requests quite frankly hurts.

    I could perhaps handle loosing Alpha if we weren't also loosing x86.

    A fresh vmdk once a year is not an acceptable solution. I'm not
    setting up a fresh VM every year, its not worth the effort.

    THey didn't say anything about closing the VSI service panel?

    The email I got says:
    "How This Affects You

    Your current license is valid through August 22, 2024. In the next
    several days, we will send you your credentials for accessing our
    Service Portal where you will get your replacement license (in August)
    and software. On the day when your license expires, your access to the
    Service Portal will be revoked."

    So yeah, loosing access to the VSI service portal and as far as I can
    see they will not be issuing standalone licenses - just refreshing the
    VM once a year. Basically that student kit they had before, but now on
    x86.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From motk@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 10:42:26 2024
    On 3/27/24 10:32, David Goodwin wrote:

    So yeah, loosing access to the VSI service portal and as far as I can
    see they will not be issuing standalone licenses - just refreshing the
    VM once a year. Basically that student kit they had before, but now on
    x86.

    Yeah, it's dead Jim.

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Single Stage to Orbit@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 01:03:41 2024
    On Wed, 2024-03-27 at 13:32 +1300, David Goodwin wrote:
    THey didn't say anything about closing the VSI service panel?

    The email I got says:
    "How This Affects You

    Your current license is valid through August 22, 2024. In the next
    several days, we will send you your credentials for accessing our
    Service Portal where you will get your replacement license (in
    August) and software. On the day when your license expires, your
    access to the Service Portal will be revoked."

    So yeah, loosing access to the VSI service portal and as far as I can
    see they will not be issuing standalone licenses - just refreshing
    the VM once a year. Basically that student kit they had before, but
    now on x86.

    F**k. :-(
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 01:00:05 2024
    I wonder if we will get a renewal of the X86 PAK, which expires on Monday

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill deWindt@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Tue Mar 26 22:40:23 2024
    On 3/26/2024 9:00 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
    I wonder if we will get a renewal of the X86 PAK, which expires on Monday

    I just noticed that a little earlier Myself on my lone X86 instance. If
    it doesn't guess I'll just trash that VM and allocate the resources
    elsewhere. Pity...

    -Bill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Craig A. Berry@21:1/5 to Jim Duff on Tue Mar 26 21:19:30 2024
    On 3/26/24 6:53 PM, Jim Duff wrote:
    On 27/3/24 10:01, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/26/24 5:39 PM, Jim Duff wrote:

    *I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
    valid through August 22, 2024"

    Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
    and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
    that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
    more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

    I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
    your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
    x86_64.

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
    Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
    me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
    OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
    today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Jan-Erik_S=C3=B6derholm?=@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 09:57:43 2024
    Well well...

    Took my first VMS/DCL introduction course some 30+ years ago.
    Have been doing VMS work every single workday since then.
    Up to 2000 as emploided and up to now running my own company.

    My current/last assignment was cancelled by the customer on the
    last on June 2023 (last summer). I'm now into retirement plans...

    So what now? It is very mixed feelings. As much as I have loved
    my VMS work over the years, it is an very "empty" feeling at the
    moment. I have obviously put to much work and devotion in this
    and it is today clear that I have been very close to loosing both
    my wife and my familly over the years. That hurts *a lot* today.
    The only positive part is that I have provided an economical
    stability today for my wife and familly, but I have lost a lot
    of my childrens grow-up time.

    It is like all my efforts spent on work are just worthless today.
    Now I'm 100% devoted to my wife who I try to make up for all the
    lost time the last 40 years (incl my 10 PDP-11 years).

    I will probably simply leave everything VMS related behind and
    will not be either here on c.o.v or on the VSI forum.

    I might get a call from my last customer to do some consulting
    when they start up the project to move of the VMS platform into
    something else. I can just as well milk some last money from them,
    as long as it doesn't interfere with my devotion to my wife.


    It has been some fun also, with VMS and c.o.v. Thanks all!

    Jan-Erik Söderholm
    Sweden.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Robert A. Brooks on Wed Mar 27 09:24:00 2024
    In article <utvnta$2e4m9$1@dont-email.me>, FIRST.LAST@vmssoftware.com
    (Robert A. Brooks) wrote:

    As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon),
    I'll make sure that EISNER is taken care of.

    Good show, sir!

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Cross@21:1/5 to davef@tsoft-inc.com on Wed Mar 27 13:03:16 2024
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
    return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."

    Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I >dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?

    The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that >understanding?

    It's been said before in this newsgroup, by me and others, that
    the current approach is non-competitive. It may be the only
    possible approach for business and legal reasons, but the idea
    of generating expanded sales around a closed-source, obscure
    commercial system was always exceedingly unlikely. Serving only
    the legacy market is, by definition, finite.

    And I say that as someone who actually really likes VMS and
    would like to see it remain available! I dislike software
    monocultures on a number of grounds, but the reality is that
    we're heading towards one. It's a real shame.

    Personally, I think the way to address this would have been to
    simply do away with PAKs and time-limited licenses entirely.

    The idea that commercial users would expose themselves legally
    and operationally by using licenses that come out of pakgen or
    whatever never struck me as particularly evidence-based; maybe
    back in the day when small ma' and pa' operations were buying
    a microvax and putting it in the back office to run bookkeeping,
    but those days are long gone. Legacy customers in the fortune
    $n$-whatever are going to maintain their licenses because the
    risk cost of not doing so outweighs the cost of staying on the
    up-and-up. So what's the point of all the overhead at the OS
    level?

    - Dan C.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to motk on Wed Mar 27 13:11:58 2024
    On 2024-03-26, motk <yep@yep.yep> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 04:44, David Goodwin wrote:

    And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
    program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
    software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
    an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
    to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".

    What ecosystem? A newsgroup? A few barely-maintained websites? The VSI forums, where Mister Moderator clomps in at the slightest hint that
    people may not be devoting their free time Generating Commerical Value
    for VSI?


    VSI management are either out of touch with reality (which based on past experience is always possible) and are overrating their own importance,
    or this is VSI moving to a managed decline model (where they extract as
    much money as they can from a captive audience) without outright saying so.

    I wonder if this is something driven by Darya or if any part of this will change when she takes over (because she might actually disagree with it).

    Ooooh, I'm cross. Vexxed, even.


    You sound like that character from The Librarians. :-)

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 09:39:06 2024
    On 3/26/2024 2:44 PM, David Goodwin wrote:
    In article <utulvc$1pmvc$1@dont-email.me>, news@cct-net.co.uk says...
    Just received 2 mails from VSI

    End of Alpha and I64 community licenses

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - WE can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Or there is an Ambassador program

    Not sure what to think yet...

    I think the community license/hobbyist program has officially ended -
    the x86 vmdks are something entirely different and a continuation of
    that student thing they were doing before.

    Going to be interesting to see what sort of damage this does to OpenVMS.
    I suspect their "community engagement" is going to pretty much disappear entirely as a result of this which may put the long-term future of
    OpenVMS at risk.

    Could do some significant damage to any open-source packages that aren't being directly maintained by VSI themselves too. And not just on Alpha
    and Itanium - I don't think I'd bother porting/maintaining stuff if its
    not going to be used outside of perhaps a few commercial users even if I could use the Ambassador program to do it at no cost.

    And for that matter, what exactly is the purpose of the Ambassador
    program? Why should I want to "bring value to VMS Software" when VMS
    software has no interest in bringing value to the community? It sounds
    an awful lot like an unpaid job to me, especially with the requirement
    to participate in meetings and "report on your work in the ecosystem".

    I think that is the main point.

    That some hobbyists are sorry that they can no longer run
    VMS on their 25 year old Alpha's is not in itself a valid
    business concern for VSI.

    But I believe that VSI (and before them HPE and HP) has
    had significant benefits from the CL program (previously
    the hobbyist program).

    A huge part of the open source available for VMS was not
    created/ported by VSI/HPE/HP but by hobbyists.

    The availability of open source is critical for VMS
    future. To modernize the interface and integration for legacy
    systems. And maybe some day to actually implement new systems.

    It will be a lot more expensive for VSI to do all that
    work themselves than administering an attractive CL program.

    And I also believe that VSI has had huge benefits from the
    CL community for the x86-64 port as "unpaid testers of
    FT versions". I know that the CL community has found a
    significant number of compiler bugs. And I assume that
    VSI paying customers appreciate that they did not get to
    find those bugs in their environment.

    The VMS community is highly skewed:
    * there is a very small group doing most of the contributions -
    porting open source, testing FT releases, answering questions
    from beginners etc.
    * there is a small group of new people that want to
    learn VMS
    * there is a huge group that like to run VMS as a hobby, lurks
    around in various forums but rarely contribute
    * there is a mid size group of whiners that does not run VMS
    at all but like to hear themself talk about what VSI should
    do in 2024 or what DEC should have done in 1984 or whatever

    The idea behind the changes seems to be that:
    - the first group will join VMS ambassador program
    - the second group will be OK with the new CL program
    - the third group does not matter

    But I don't think the first group will join VMS ambassador program.
    Well - some will. But a lot will not. They don't like the name.
    They don't like the commitment. They don't like what happened
    to the third group.

    Yesterday I guessed that half of the first group would join
    VMS ambassador program, but based on feedback since then that guess
    seems too high today.

    The changes does not make business sense for VSI.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to David Goodwin on Wed Mar 27 13:28:51 2024
    On 2024-03-26, David Goodwin <david+usenet@zx.net.nz> wrote:

    I wonder why community licenses were never automated. Why was there ever
    a queue? Why did it need someone to do things to process it?

    Surely they could have just had a form that added a row to a database
    and then sent an email. Would have been a lot easier than all of this.

    They probably should have tied it to the DECUS membership number, just
    like HPE did. You could get a free membership number from Eisner as well.

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Wed Mar 27 13:24:38 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    (warning: this is going to be a long rant)

    First announcement link:
    https://vmssoftware.com/about/news/2024-03-25-community-license-update/

    The changes seems to be:
    * student license program is dropped
    * community license program is changed
    - not available for Alpha and Itanium, only available for x86-64
    - not available as license+kit, only available as preinstalled disk image * new VMS ambassador license
    - with obligations to contribute
    - license for all 3 platforms

    What is the point of supplying a licence for all 3 platforms, if most of
    the hobbyist users will not be able to run the ambassador's software on
    2 of those 3 platforms ? Is the ambassador simply doing unpaid work for
    VSI's commercial customers _only_ ?

    - license+kit model

    Reasons given are to solve problems:
    * too much work managing licenses
    * too little contribution back

    I don't think the changes will solve the problems.

    It is obvious that VSI has been struggling with the community licenses,
    but VSI will still have to do commercial licenses, ISV licenses and
    the new VMS ambassador licenses. If that process is not automated, then
    it will stille be hassle.


    I think HPE (including HPE India!) did a far better job of this than VSI
    are doing.

    I don't know how many hobbyist licences HPE had to manage, but I would be surprised if it was much less than the number VSI have to manage.

    Even though HPE only had one person doing this, including after the move
    to India occurred, the process always seemed to "flow" much smoothly than
    it has done with VSI.

    I knew I would find something nice to say about HPE India one day. :-)

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Wed Mar 27 13:43:52 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    On 3/26/24 6:53 PM, Jim Duff wrote:
    On 27/3/24 10:01, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/26/24 5:39 PM, Jim Duff wrote:

    *I'm* certainly confused. The email says "Your current license is
    valid through August 22, 2024"

    Which e-mail would that be? The announcement about discontinuing Alpha
    and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
    that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
    more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

    I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
    your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
    referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
    x86_64.

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
    me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
    their own Perl port ?

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Robert A. Brooks on Wed Mar 27 13:45:17 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Robert A. Brooks <FIRST.LAST@vmssoftware.com> wrote:
    On 3/26/2024 2:43 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

    One further thought: I wonder what this means for systems like Eisner,
    which are running on VSI time-limited licences ?

    As long as I'm at VSI (and I don't plan on leaving any time soon), I'll make sure that EISNER is taken care of.


    Thank you Rob.

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to arne@vajhoej.dk on Wed Mar 27 14:06:27 2024
    On 2024-03-27, Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

    The changes does not make business sense for VSI.


    Short-term or long-term business sense ? There's a difference.

    Oh, and as for those "whiners" (as you call them) no longer running VMS, perhaps they might be motivated to do so if the situation was different,
    but maybe, as things stand, they can't be motivated to do so, and spend
    their own time on other newly-interesting projects instead as their
    interests have changed.

    They should not be dismissed simply because they no longer run VMS, but
    instead finding out _why_ they no longer run it could be useful in its
    own right.

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Wed Mar 27 13:31:05 2024
    On 2024-03-26, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

    No longer doing software work ...


    In a way you are - you are still doing the maths/algorithms/procedures
    involved in building your aircraft... :-)

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Townley on Wed Mar 27 14:38:00 2024
    In article <utulvc$1pmvc$1@dont-email.me>, news@cct-net.co.uk (Chris
    Townley) wrote:

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - We can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Looking up what you can do with a VMDK, the options for running it seem
    to be QEMU, VirtualBox or VMware. The problems there are:

    * QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
    * VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
    * VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
    everyone off the product.

    My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
    them looking hard at alternatives.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Wed Mar 27 15:05:51 2024
    On 27/03/2024 14:38, John Dallman wrote:
    In article <utulvc$1pmvc$1@dont-email.me>, news@cct-net.co.uk (Chris
    Townley) wrote:

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - We can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Looking up what you can do with a VMDK, the options for running it seem
    to be QEMU, VirtualBox or VMware. The problems there are:

    * QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
    * VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
    * VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
    everyone off the product.

    My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
    them looking hard at alternatives.

    John

    I set up a server running Ubuntu, and found it pretty easy to setup
    KVM/QEMU. I set up 2 instances of VMS, albeit they are fairly simple, I
    find they work extremely well. I have pretty much left my FreeAXP
    instances alone, as I have my physical AXP

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Craig A. Berry@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Mar 27 12:39:09 2024
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    On 3/26/24 6:53 PM, Jim Duff wrote:
    On 27/3/24 10:01, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/26/24 5:39 PM, Jim Duff wrote:

    *I'm* certainly confused.  The email says "Your current license is
    valid through August 22, 2024"

    Which e-mail would that be?  The announcement about discontinuing Alpha >>>> and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like
    that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one
    more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

    I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to
    your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
    referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
    x86_64.

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
    Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
    me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
    OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing
    today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.

    I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
    done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
    I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
    for anything based on recent experience.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Wed Mar 27 19:58:45 2024
    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
    Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
    me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
    OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing >>> today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
    their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.


    So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
    base installation.

    I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
    done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
    I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
    for anything based on recent experience.


    Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
    access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
    this pre-built system only setup.

    IMHO, the fact VSI have not already contacted you and arranged for your continued free access to VMS systems, and based on the current setup, is
    a major mistake on the part of VSI.

    Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
    to apply for anything. :-(

    I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
    a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
    fixed quickly.

    I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they
    make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
    change required.

    If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
    It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Mar 27 16:21:08 2024
    On 3/27/2024 3:58 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
    a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
    fixed quickly.

    If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
    It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.

    I have not counted. But I believe the current result is:

    this is a good idea : 0
    this is a bad idea : 50 or so magnitude

    How much weight VSI put on c.o.v is another question.

    I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
    change required.

    Yeah.

    But it would be way easier to just let those people apply
    for a CL license like before.

    And one of the main reasons given for the change was
    work administering this.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Goodwin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 28 09:41:07 2024
    In article <uu1tpk$31o5s$1@dont-email.me>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP says...

    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
    Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to >>> me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For >>> OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing >>> today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining >> their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.


    So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
    base installation.

    I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
    done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
    I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
    for anything based on recent experience.


    Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
    access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
    this pre-built system only setup.

    IMHO, the fact VSI have not already contacted you and arranged for your continued free access to VMS systems, and based on the current setup, is
    a major mistake on the part of VSI.

    Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
    to apply for anything. :-(

    I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
    a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
    fixed quickly.

    I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
    change required.

    If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
    It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.

    I wonder how many people maintaining open-source packages will even
    think its still worthwhile if the only people who can benefit from it
    are corporate users.

    Getting continued free access to OpenVMS for only as long as you're
    maintaining some open-source package and only really for the benefit of commercial users sounds more like an unpaid job than anything.

    If VSI doesn't want to give away something for free anymore for the
    benefit of the community, I'm not sure why VSI should expect this stuff
    to be maintained for free for the benefit of their customers. If VSI
    wants it they ought to be paying money for it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Daniel@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Thu Mar 28 08:35:17 2024
    On 28/3/2024 06:28, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    8< snip 8<
    So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
    base installation.

    I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community
    license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
    done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
    I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
    for anything based on recent experience.


    Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
    access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
    this pre-built system only setup.
    8< snip 8<
    If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
    It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.

    Simon.

    +1

    --
    Anyone, who using social-media, forms an opinion regarding anything
    other than the relative cuteness of this or that puppy-dog, needs
    seriously to examine their critical thinking.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Craig A. Berry@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Mar 27 17:12:13 2024
    On 3/27/24 2:58 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining >>> their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.


    So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
    base installation.

    They are using the standard distribution as well as some kit-building procedures I created. This is all open source and they are not doing
    anything wrong here.

    What I have been doing for a long time that no one else has been doing
    is fairly frequent builds of the current development branch followed by
    fixing upstream whatever got broken since the last time I built. That
    constant maintenance is why the standard distribution even works on VMS.

    Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
    to apply for anything. :-(

    Thanks for the note of support. I don't really feel that anybody owes me anything, but "why are you making it harder for me to help you?" is a
    question that's been rattling around in my head.

    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
    Somehow there was too much interest and not enough "engagement"? If
    Arne had put all his nice example code on a VSI-hosted wiki instead of
    his own web site would that have convinced them that the community is
    doing enough for VSI?

    Meanwhile I still don't have even an auto-reply from applying for a new community license.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to Dan Cross on Wed Mar 27 20:32:15 2024
    On 3/27/2024 9:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
    return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."

    My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a good thing for VMS.

    Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I
    dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?

    The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that >> understanding?

    It's been said before in this newsgroup, by me and others, that
    the current approach is non-competitive. It may be the only
    possible approach for business and legal reasons, but the idea
    of generating expanded sales around a closed-source, obscure
    commercial system was always exceedingly unlikely. Serving only
    the legacy market is, by definition, finite.

    While I seem to consider the world running on Unix/Linux/WEENDOZE could be a more dangerous place. Some might agree since IBM seems to be still doing well. Yeah, they will run Linux, but, I think that is more marketing than anything else.

    And I say that as someone who actually really likes VMS and
    would like to see it remain available! I dislike software
    monocultures on a number of grounds, but the reality is that
    we're heading towards one. It's a real shame.

    Well, if we get Trump, will anything matter? Good bye constitution, hello King Donald the First. Someone was just pointing out on TV this morning that when facisim (I can't spell it) comes to America, it will be carrying a US flag and a
    bible. Ok, off topic ...

    Personally, I think the way to address this would have been to
    simply do away with PAKs and time-limited licenses entirely.

    Gee, someone mentioned this years ago. Oh, that was me ...

    The idea that commercial users would expose themselves legally
    and operationally by using licenses that come out of pakgen or
    whatever never struck me as particularly evidence-based; maybe
    back in the day when small ma' and pa' operations were buying
    a microvax and putting it in the back office to run bookkeeping,
    but those days are long gone. Legacy customers in the fortune
    $n$-whatever are going to maintain their licenses because the
    risk cost of not doing so outweighs the cost of staying on the
    up-and-up. So what's the point of all the overhead at the OS
    level?

    Indeed!


    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Mar 27 20:36:32 2024
    On 3/27/2024 9:31 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

    No longer doing software work ...


    In a way you are - you are still doing the maths/algorithms/procedures involved in building your aircraft... :-)

    Simon.


    And for the most part, really enjoying it. The real fun should come this summer
    when I get into test pilot mode.

    I did discover, and am not surprised, I'm rather poor at finishing and painting.
    Oh, well, it should not matter. I doubt anyone will be inspecting the paint job when I'm buzzing them 6 inches below their hair line.

    :-)

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Wed Mar 27 20:45:14 2024
    On 3/27/2024 1:39 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    On 3/26/24 6:53 PM, Jim Duff wrote:
    On 27/3/24 10:01, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/26/24 5:39 PM, Jim Duff wrote:

    *I'm* certainly confused. The email says "Your current license is >>>>>> valid through August 22, 2024"

    Which e-mail would that be? The announcement about discontinuing Alpha >>>>> and Integrity community licenses doesn't appear to have anything like >>>>> that statement. It did say the existing licenses would be renewed one >>>>> more time "in August" -- presumably August 2024.

    I have to assume that when I get a personal email entitled "Updates to >>>> your Community License" that references "Your current license", it's
    referring to the only Community License I currently have, the one for
    x86_64.

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
    Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to
    me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For
    OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing >>> today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining
    their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.

    I guess I'll see what results from my application for the new community license. I could probably qualify as an ambassador based on work I've
    done in the past, but it's a little vague what the expectations are and
    I don't have a lot of confidence they can actually process applications
    for anything based on recent experience.


    If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a CL? You should be in the developer program.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 20:56:35 2024
    On 3/27/2024 4:57 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
    Well well...

    Took my first VMS/DCL introduction course some 30+ years ago.
    Have been doing VMS work every single workday since then.
    Up to 2000 as emploided and up to now running my own company.

    My current/last assignment was cancelled by the customer on the
    last on June 2023 (last summer). I'm now into retirement plans...

    So what now? It is very mixed feelings. As much as I have loved
    my VMS work over the years, it is an very "empty" feeling at the
    moment. I have obviously put to much work and devotion in this
    and it is today clear that I have been very close to loosing both
    my wife and my familly over the years. That hurts *a lot* today.
    The only positive part is that I have provided an economical
    stability today for my wife and familly, but I have lost a lot
    of my childrens grow-up time.

    It is like all my efforts spent on work are just worthless today.
    Now I'm 100% devoted to my wife who I try to make up for all the
    lost time the last 40 years (incl my 10 PDP-11 years).

    I will probably simply leave everything VMS related behind and
    will not be either here on c.o.v or on the VSI forum.

    I might get a call from my last customer to do some consulting
    when they start up the project to move of the VMS platform into
    something else. I can just as well milk some last money from them,
    as long as it doesn't interfere with my devotion to my wife.


    It has been some fun also, with VMS and c.o.v. Thanks all!

    Jan-Erik Söderholm
    Sweden.

    Wow Jan-Erik, are we twins? Some of what you write is also my story.

    Note, you can still hang around here in any spare time. Someone(s) need to keep
    Simon honest.

    :-)

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Craig A. Berry@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Wed Mar 27 19:59:54 2024
    On 3/27/24 7:45 PM, Dave Froble wrote:

    If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a CL?
    You should be in the developer program.

    I have never heard of a "developer" program. I have heard of ISV
    licenses for people producing commercial software for sale. That never
    seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
    contrary, please enlighten me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Mar 27 21:12:39 2024
    On 3/27/2024 8:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:
    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Thu Mar 28 00:34:28 2024
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Wed Mar 27 21:47:15 2024
    On 3/27/2024 8:59 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/27/24 7:45 PM, Dave Froble wrote:

    If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a CL? You >> should be in the developer program.

    I have never heard of a "developer" program. I have heard of ISV
    licenses for people producing commercial software for sale. That never seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the contrary, please enlighten me.


    Several years ago I mentioned to Mark Daniels that he should be in the developer/ISV program, and he checked it out and joined. He seemed to be pleased. Last I heard, he wasn't considering WASD a commercial product.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Craig A. Berry@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Wed Mar 27 20:59:39 2024
    On 3/27/24 8:47 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 8:59 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/27/24 7:45 PM, Dave Froble wrote:

    If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a
    CL?  You
    should be in the developer program.

    I have never heard of a "developer" program.  I have heard of ISV
    licenses for people producing commercial software for sale.  That never
    seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
    contrary, please enlighten me.


    Several years ago I mentioned to Mark Daniels that he should be in the developer/ISV program, and he checked it out and joined.  He seemed to
    be pleased.  Last I heard, he wasn't considering WASD a commercial product.


    Good to know. Here, under ISV license:

    https://vmssoftware.com/products/licenses/

    it says, "If you are an Independent Software Vendor of Commercial
    software for OpenVMS...."

    Maybe something has changed or maybe they don't really require that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Daniel@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Thu Mar 28 13:03:25 2024
    On 28/3/2024 12:17, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 8:59 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    On 3/27/24 7:45 PM, Dave Froble wrote:

    If you're maintaining PERL for VMS, then why are you messing with a
    CL?  You
    should be in the developer program.

    I have never heard of a "developer" program.  I have heard of ISV
    licenses for people producing commercial software for sale.  That never
    seemed relevant for open source work, but if you have evidence to the
    contrary, please enlighten me.


    Several years ago I mentioned to Mark Daniels that he should be in the developer/ISV program, and he checked it out and joined.  He seemed to
    be pleased.  Last I heard, he wasn't considering WASD a commercial product.
    Yes, I am pleased. No, it is not.

    I understand my application was advocated for by Kerry Main and endorsed
    by Eddie Orcutt at the time.

    It certainly gave me early access to x86 for the port.

    No reason why contributors to major software should not be considered.
    Perhaps 'ambassador' might be a better fit. Until we know more...

    --
    Anyone, who using social-media, forms an opinion regarding anything
    other than the relative cuteness of this or that puppy-dog, needs
    seriously to examine their critical thinking.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 28 02:43:24 2024
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:12:39 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    On 3/27/2024 8:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Robert A. Brooks@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Mar 27 22:58:36 2024
    On 3/27/2024 10:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:12:39 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    On 3/27/2024 8:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:

    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?

    Uh, no.

    Our parent company (Teracloud -- https://teracloud.com/)
    likes to acquire companies, not get rid of them.

    --

    --- Rob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Robert A. Brooks on Thu Mar 28 05:16:06 2024
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 22:58:36 -0400, Robert A. Brooks wrote:

    On 3/27/2024 10:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?

    Uh, no.

    Our parent company (Teracloud -- https://teracloud.com/)
    likes to acquire companies, not get rid of them.

    So I notice. It seems to have collected a real random mishmash of
    businesses, with no clear cohesion behind them.

    <https://teracloud.com/projects>

    Seems it was founded in 2017, according to <https://www.linkedin.com/company/teracloud-llc>. Since VSI existed before that, that means it has already been acquired once.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bork@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 28 19:28:05 2024
    On 28/03/2024 11:12 am, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 8:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:
    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Private company's still have shares. In any case, they're possibly
    juicing the value to sell off the IP. Getting a real case of Private
    Equity here - did the new owners happen to bring in a lot of debt?

    --
    motk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael S@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu Mar 28 13:44:12 2024
    On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 05:16:06 -0000 (UTC)
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 22:58:36 -0400, Robert A. Brooks wrote:

    On 3/27/2024 10:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Maybe they’re readying it for an acquisition?

    Uh, no.

    Our parent company (Teracloud -- https://teracloud.com/)
    likes to acquire companies, not get rid of them.

    So I notice. It seems to have collected a real random mishmash of businesses, with no clear cohesion behind them.

    <https://teracloud.com/projects>

    Seems it was founded in 2017, according to <https://www.linkedin.com/company/teracloud-llc>. Since VSI existed
    before that, that means it has already been acquired once.

    More likely, in 2017 Johan Magnusson Gedda, an owner of VSI and of
    few other, mostly bigger companies, moved his office to Copenhagen
    and decided that at new place he wants to use a new name.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Bork on Thu Mar 28 07:23:47 2024
    On 3/28/2024 5:28 AM, Bork wrote:
    On 28/03/2024 11:12 am, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 8:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:
    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Private company's still have shares.

    Yes. But since they are not traded there is no price
    on the stock exchange to boost.

    In any case, they're possibly
    juicing the value to sell off the IP.

    I doubt that. I don't think VSI got any IP that they can
    sell.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Thu Mar 28 13:24:19 2024
    On 2024-03-27, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    Wow Jan-Erik, are we twins? Some of what you write is also my story.

    Note, you can still hang around here in any spare time. Someone(s) need to keep
    Simon honest.

    :-)


    $ set response/mode=good_natured

    Simon is _always_ honest. It's just that some people don't like Simon's
    level of honesty and willingness to say things people don't like to hear. :-)

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Craig A. Berry on Thu Mar 28 13:19:51 2024
    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    On 3/27/24 2:58 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining >>>> their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.


    So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
    base installation.

    They are using the standard distribution as well as some kit-building procedures I created. This is all open source and they are not doing anything wrong here.


    I didn't think they would be. What you say below matches what I thought
    you were doing.

    What I have been doing for a long time that no one else has been doing
    is fairly frequent builds of the current development branch followed by fixing upstream whatever got broken since the last time I built. That constant maintenance is why the standard distribution even works on VMS.


    That is exactly my point. You are doing work for free that directly benefits VSI. The fact you push your changes to a public distribution and VSI take
    from that distribution, instead of from you directly, does not change that.

    I should also point out that this is also the type of unseen thankless work that nobody notices when everything is running ok, but which they notice
    big time when that thankless work stops being done.

    VSI are in serious danger of finding this out the hard way, especially given the multiple open source packages people run on VMS.

    Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
    to apply for anything. :-(

    Thanks for the note of support. I don't really feel that anybody owes me anything, but "why are you making it harder for me to help you?" is a question that's been rattling around in my head.


    They owe you a bloody great big thanks for doing this work and for doing
    it to a sufficiently high standard that they can directly package it as
    part of a commercial product.

    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.
    Somehow there was too much interest and not enough "engagement"? If
    Arne had put all his nice example code on a VSI-hosted wiki instead of
    his own web site would that have convinced them that the community is
    doing enough for VSI?


    I just don't get it either. HPE (including HPE India) seemed to handle this
    a _lot_ better than VSI are doing.

    Meanwhile I still don't have even an auto-reply from applying for a new community license.


    I really hope by now that is on its way to rapidly being fixed. :-(

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 28 13:52:48 2024
    On 3/28/2024 7:23 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 5:28 AM, Bork wrote:
    On 28/03/2024 11:12 am, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 8:34 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 17:12:13 -0500, Craig A. Berry wrote:
    I'm not sure what problem it is they are really trying to solve.

    Boost the share price.

    VSI is a private company not a public company.

    Private company's still have shares.

    Yes. But since they are not traded there is no price
    on the stock exchange to boost.

    In any case, they're possibly juicing the
    value to sell off the IP.

    I doubt that. I don't think VSI got any IP that they can
    sell.

    Arne


    There is also the question of whether they can re-sale the license(s) or agreements they received from HP. Perhaps acquisition of a company is not the same as transferring assets?

    They do own whatever they develop and can sell that.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stephen Hoffman@21:1/5 to Jim Duff on Thu Mar 28 15:18:07 2024
    On 2024-03-26 23:53:26 +0000, Jim Duff said:

    Here we are nearly 14 years after I was forced to kill the patch
    syndication feeds, and I don't know how many years after the Sydney CSC stopped providing the patch list, and there is *still* no way to automatically retrieve a list of patches for your version of VMS.

    Definitely. Patches are still a mess. No way to buy VSI products
    online, either. One- and two-person shops have routinely established
    that. But VSI has lots of licenses and license complexity. Yeah, and
    whose problem is that to address? Maybe prior to patching the problem
    of PAK profligacy, pick the thousand most common, and configure and
    sell those. 🤷🏼


    --
    Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stephen Hoffman@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Thu Mar 28 15:30:26 2024
    On 2024-03-27 14:38:00 +0000, John Dallman said:

    In article <utulvc$1pmvc$1@dont-email.me>, news@cct-net.co.uk (Chris
    Townley) wrote:

    Looks like a more restricted X86 - We can download a pre-built and
    licensed VMDK with a few LP, including compilers

    Looking up what you can do with a VMDK, the options for running it seem
    to be QEMU, VirtualBox or VMware. The problems there are:

    * QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
    * VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
    * VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting
    everyone off the product.

    My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises have
    them looking hard at alternatives.

    FWIW, XenServer (formerly Citrix) sees an opportunity what with the
    recent Broadcom VMware pricing changes: https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/27/xenserver_8_returns/



    --
    Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Single Stage to Orbit@21:1/5 to Stephen Hoffman on Thu Mar 28 21:19:50 2024
    On Thu, 2024-03-28 at 15:30 -0400, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
    * QEMU seems to be pretty complex, or at least, ill-documented.
    * VirtualBox is from Oracle, and thus subject to corporate whims.
    * VMware is from Broadcom, whose swingeing price rises are putting everyone off the product.

    My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises
    have
    them looking hard at alternatives.

    FWIW, XenServer (formerly Citrix) sees an opportunity what with the
    recent Broadcom VMware pricing changes: https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/27/xenserver_8_returns/

    Proxmox is a good alternative. The commerical fees aren't onerous.
    --
    Tactical Nuclear Kittens

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Stephen Hoffman on Thu Mar 28 21:53:00 2024
    In article <uu4ggi$3p198$1@dont-email.me>, seaohveh@hoffmanlabs.invalid (Stephen Hoffman) wrote:
    On 2024-03-27 14:38:00 +0000, John Dallman said:
    My employers are large-scale users of VMware, but the price rises
    have them looking hard at alternatives.

    FWIW, XenServer (formerly Citrix) sees an opportunity what with the
    recent Broadcom VMware pricing changes: https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/27/xenserver_8_returns/

    Thanks, noted.

    John

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Thu Mar 28 19:09:01 2024
    On 3/28/2024 1:52 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 7:23 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 5:28 AM, Bork wrote:
                                    In any case, they're possibly juicing
    the
    value to sell off the IP.

    I doubt that. I don't think VSI got any IP that they can
    sell.

    There is also the question of whether they can re-sale the license(s) or agreements they received from HP.  Perhaps acquisition of a company is
    not the same as transferring assets?

    It all depends on the wording of the agreement between HP/HPE and VSI.

    But a guess:

    Can VSI sell the VMS IP to a third party? Definitely no - VSI does not
    own VMS IP.

    Can VSI sell the right to distribute VMS to a third party? My guess
    would be no - I don't see HP/HPE lawyers having agreed to that ("non-transferable license" is a common term).

    Can Terracloud sell their VSI stocks to a third party? My guess would be
    yes - HP/HPE lawyers would not care who owns VSI.

    They do own whatever they develop and can sell that.

    VSI own the IP of what they have created, but I don't see
    that being a sellable product without the HP/HPE IP.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Cross@21:1/5 to davef@tsoft-inc.com on Fri Mar 29 00:03:31 2024
    In article <uu2dqu$35k4u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 9:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
    return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."

    My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a >good thing for VMS.

    Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
    things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
    faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
    a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
    path would have been superior.

    Or, if there is such interest, perhaps some beancounter (everyone knows I >>> dislike beancounters, right?) sees it as a way to milk some money from the interest?

    The community license seemed like someone understood. What happened to that
    understanding?

    It's been said before in this newsgroup, by me and others, that
    the current approach is non-competitive. It may be the only
    possible approach for business and legal reasons, but the idea
    of generating expanded sales around a closed-source, obscure
    commercial system was always exceedingly unlikely. Serving only
    the legacy market is, by definition, finite.

    While I seem to consider the world running on Unix/Linux/WEENDOZE could be a >more dangerous place. Some might agree since IBM seems to be still doing well.
    Yeah, they will run Linux, but, I think that is more marketing than anything else.

    I think IBM managed to leverage their installed base and lock-in
    to weather some pretty bad storms. More power to them, but VMS
    just isn't in that same position.

    And I say that as someone who actually really likes VMS and
    would like to see it remain available! I dislike software
    monocultures on a number of grounds, but the reality is that
    we're heading towards one. It's a real shame.

    Well, if we get Trump, will anything matter? Good bye constitution, hello King
    Donald the First. Someone was just pointing out on TV this morning that when >facisim (I can't spell it) comes to America, it will be carrying a US flag and a
    bible. Ok, off topic ...

    You get absolutely no argument from me on this. The "When
    fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and
    carrying a cross" 'quote' is often attributed to Sinclair Lewis,
    possibly in his novel, "It Can't Happen Here." But it's not in
    that novel, and there's no evidence he actually said it. It is
    very much in keeping with the theme of the book, though.

    Personally, I think the way to address this would have been to
    simply do away with PAKs and time-limited licenses entirely.

    Gee, someone mentioned this years ago. Oh, that was me ...

    :-D

    - Dan C.

    The idea that commercial users would expose themselves legally
    and operationally by using licenses that come out of pakgen or
    whatever never struck me as particularly evidence-based; maybe
    back in the day when small ma' and pa' operations were buying
    a microvax and putting it in the back office to run bookkeeping,
    but those days are long gone. Legacy customers in the fortune
    $n$-whatever are going to maintain their licenses because the
    risk cost of not doing so outweighs the cost of staying on the
    up-and-up. So what's the point of all the overhead at the OS
    level?

    Indeed!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Hans Bachner@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Fri Mar 29 00:58:15 2024
    Simon Clubley schrieb am 27.03.2024 um 20:58:
    On 2024-03-27, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/24 8:43 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-03-26, Craig A. Berry <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> wrote:

    Ah, ok. I just got a rather generic e-mail entitled "Updates to VSI
    Community License Program," not the personal one you got. It occurs to >>>> me I don't even have a current license since my applications in
    September and October 2023 were never either accepted or rejected. For >>>> OpenVMS x86 I've been using the registration loophole where a prior
    account on the service portal provides the ability to download a PAK.
    If that's over then I guess I'm done. I applied for this new vmdk thing >>>> today and this time didn't even get an automated acknowledgement, so
    it's looking like this one may be ignored like my previous two applications.

    I wonder what happens to Perl on VMS in that case ?

    Are VSI packaging your Perl version in x86-64 VMS or are they maintaining >>> their own Perl port ?

    They are not maintaining their own port.


    So IOW, VSI are packaging something you have created as part of their
    base installation.

    [...]
    Given the above, you should not have to apply to continue getting free
    access to VMS systems, and you certainly should not have to go through
    this pre-built system only setup.

    IMHO, the fact VSI have not already contacted you and arranged for your continued free access to VMS systems, and based on the current setup, is
    a major mistake on the part of VSI.

    Given what you have provided to VSI for free, you should not be having
    to apply for anything. :-(

    I hope one of the VSI employees reading comp.os.vms are already having
    a quiet word with the people responsible for this to get this situation
    fixed quickly.

    I would also recommend VSI review all the other open source software they make available which is maintained by non-VSI people and arrange for those people to have immediate continued access with the minimum of fuss and
    change required.

    If anyone reading this agrees with the above, could you say so here ?
    It might provoke VSI into rapidly fixing this screwup by them.

    +1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 29 00:22:43 2024
    On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 19:09:01 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    VSI does not own VMS IP.

    What about the code VSI created? Do the rights to that belong to HP as
    well?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu Mar 28 20:36:01 2024
    On 3/28/2024 8:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 19:09:01 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    VSI does not own VMS IP.

    What about the code VSI created? Do the rights to that belong to HP as
    well?

    They must own that.

    But 5% of the code for an OS is not worth much without
    the remaining 95%.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to bill on Thu Mar 28 20:37:13 2024
    On 3/28/2024 8:31 PM, bill wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 8:03 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
    Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
    things must be tempered by their costs.  Here, I suspect VSI was
    faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
    a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
    path would have been superior.

    What cost are we talking about here?  If you mean the cost of
    taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
    why that could not have been fully automated.  It's not rocket
    science (anymore) people.

    It should have been automated.

    But there is every indication that it was not.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 29 00:43:15 2024
    On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 20:36:01 -0400, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

    But 5% of the code for an OS is not worth much without
    the remaining 95%.

    That’s how BSD got started.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to bill on Fri Mar 29 00:45:21 2024
    On 29/03/2024 00:31, bill wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 8:03 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <uu2dqu$35k4u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 9:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate
    that there has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden?  Were they seeing any
    return on it?  My guess is, "no, not really."

    My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in
    VMS is a
    good thing for VMS.

    Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
    things must be tempered by their costs.  Here, I suspect VSI was
    faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
    a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
    path would have been superior.

    What cost are we talking about here?  If you mean the cost of
    taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
    why that could not have been fully automated.  It's not rocket
    science (anymore) people.


    bill


    +1 from me.
    Didn't Hunter do something similar in the early days of the HP CL

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Cross@21:1/5 to bill.gunshannon@gmail.com on Fri Mar 29 00:57:12 2024
    In article <l6mgf9Fd0sdU1@mid.individual.net>,
    bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 8:03 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <uu2dqu$35k4u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 9:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
    return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."

    My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
    good thing for VMS.

    Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
    things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
    faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
    a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
    path would have been superior.

    What cost are we talking about here? If you mean the cost of
    taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
    why that could not have been fully automated. It's not rocket
    science (anymore) people.

    I agree, but I'm not privy to the issues inside of VSI that
    lead up to this decision. I still think it's a poor decision,
    but I freely admit I'm not aware of the full context that went
    into it.

    - Dan C.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to bill on Thu Mar 28 21:54:16 2024
    On 3/28/2024 8:31 PM, bill wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 8:03 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <uu2dqu$35k4u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 9:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate that there
    has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden? Were they seeing any
    return on it? My guess is, "no, not really."

    My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in VMS is a
    good thing for VMS.

    Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
    things must be tempered by their costs. Here, I suspect VSI was
    faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
    a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
    path would have been superior.

    What cost are we talking about here? If you mean the cost of
    taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
    why that could not have been fully automated. It's not rocket
    science (anymore) people.


    bill


    I tend to try to look beyond what is said ...

    It may not be technical at all. What if someone in VSI, or it's parent, asked, why are we doing this? It isn't what is our business plan.

    Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it. Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.

    I don't know anything. Just speculation. But in c.o.v I have not noticed much being said by VSI people. Might not be healthy speaking out against those at the top.

    Nor am I buying the newbie issue. Just point them at c.o.v and they would get more advice than they wanted.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Chris Townley@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Fri Mar 29 02:06:29 2024
    On 29/03/2024 01:54, Dave Froble wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 8:31 PM, bill wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 8:03 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <uu2dqu$35k4u$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    On 3/27/2024 9:03 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <utvdak$2bpcm$1@dont-email.me>,
    Dave Froble  <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Well, if it was/is that much work, then should that not indicate
    that there
    has
    been plenty of interest?

    One would think!

    And if so, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?

    I hate to be that guy, but...but it must be asked: were the eggs
    laid by that goose really all that golden?  Were they seeing any
    return on it?  My guess is, "no, not really."

    My perspective has been that anything that gets or keeps interest in
    VMS is a
    good thing for VMS.

    Fundamentally I agree with you, but with the caveat that those
    things must be tempered by their costs.  Here, I suspect VSI was
    faced with a cost that they didn't feel was worth it; they chose
    a path to address that, where you and I both agree that another
    path would have been superior.

    What cost are we talking about here?  If you mean the cost of
    taking in requests and sending out licenses I see no reason
    why that could not have been fully automated.  It's not rocket
    science (anymore) people.


    bill


    I tend to try to look beyond what is said ...

    It may not be technical at all.  What if someone in VSI, or it's parent, asked, why are we doing this?  It isn't what is our business plan.

    Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it. Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.

    I don't know anything.  Just speculation.  But in c.o.v I have not
    noticed much being said by VSI people.  Might not be healthy speaking
    out against those at the top.

    Nor am I buying the newbie issue.  Just point them at c.o.v and they
    would get more advice than they wanted.


    I believe the recent batch of VMS newbies helped the demise.

    Too many couldn't be bothered to even look at he docs/release notes. One
    chap couldn't be bothered to read the TCP/IP docs - and it showed in the pleading thread.

    He then complained about the first 2.2-2 patch - the release notes
    clearly stated to install the PCSI patch first - as did his transcript
    from his attempt to install.

    He then just grumbled on the forum - even after a few good clear
    responses from VSI people.

    No wonder they thought is it worth it?

    --
    Chris

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Thu Mar 28 22:16:32 2024
    On 3/28/2024 9:54 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    It may not be technical at all.  What if someone in VSI, or it's parent, asked, why are we doing this?  It isn't what is our business plan.

    Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it. Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.

    I think the business case is there for CL.

    The cost of emailing out CL licenses is a couple of orders
    of magnitudes smaller than the cost of replacing the
    CL "free testing" with employee testers and replacing
    the CL "open source maintainers" with employee developers.

    I don't know anything.  Just speculation.  But in c.o.v I have not
    noticed much being said by VSI people.  Might not be healthy speaking
    out against those at the top.

    Public commenting on your employers decisions is
    generally considered inappropriate.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Chris Townley on Thu Mar 28 22:22:12 2024
    On 3/28/2024 10:06 PM, Chris Townley wrote:
    On 29/03/2024 01:54, Dave Froble wrote:
    Nor am I buying the newbie issue.  Just point them at c.o.v and they
    would get more advice than they wanted.

    I believe the recent batch of VMS newbies helped the demise.

    Too many couldn't be bothered to even look at he docs/release notes. One
    chap couldn't be bothered to read the TCP/IP docs - and it showed in the pleading thread.

    He then complained about the first 2.2-2 patch - the release notes
    clearly stated to install the PCSI patch first - as did his transcript
    from his attempt to install.

    He then just grumbled on the forum - even after a few good clear
    responses from VSI people.

    No wonder they thought is it worth it?

    Beginner questions can be frustrating.

    But I don't think the changes will fix the "problem".

    The beginners are likely to:
    - only be interested in x86-64 (they don't have an old
    Alpha on the shelf)
    - be happy about the disk image as installation is
    one of their problems
    so I predict practically the same number of beginners asking
    beginner questions.

    But those outside of VSI able to answer the beginner questions
    at the forum or here are likely to want more than x86-64 and
    prefer kit + license over disk image. So I predict fewer
    of those helping answer questions.

    Arne

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 29 23:15:52 2024
    On 3/28/2024 10:16 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    On 3/28/2024 9:54 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
    It may not be technical at all. What if someone in VSI, or it's parent,
    asked, why are we doing this? It isn't what is our business plan.

    Something like the CL must have believers implementing and running it.
    Perhaps those calling the shots are not believers in the CL.

    I think the business case is there for CL.

    The cost of emailing out CL licenses is a couple of orders
    of magnitudes smaller than the cost of replacing the
    CL "free testing" with employee testers and replacing
    the CL "open source maintainers" with employee developers.

    I don't know anything. Just speculation. But in c.o.v I have not noticed >> much being said by VSI people. Might not be healthy speaking out against
    those at the top.

    Public commenting on your employers decisions is
    generally considered inappropriate.

    Arne



    And dangerous ...

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)