Two more tech demo's.

VMS Tech Demo 14 - Groovy for scripting:
https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd14.html

Covering:
* basic scripting
* using to SYS$ and LIB$ functions
* accessing index-sequential files, databases and message queues

VMS Tech Demo 15 - Groovy for applications:
https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd15.html

Covering:
* Groovy calling Java
* Java calling Groovy
* Groovy calling C/Pascal/Basic
* C/Pascal/Basic calling Groovy

Arne

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On 3/2/24 7:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

Two more tech demo's.

VMS Tech Demo 14 - Groovy for scripting:
  https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd14.html

How does Groovy compare to BeanShell?

https://github.com/beanshell/beanshell

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On 3/3/2024 9:38 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

On 3/2/24 7:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

Two more tech demo's.

VMS Tech Demo 14 - Groovy for scripting:
   https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd14.html

How does Groovy compare to BeanShell?

https://github.com/beanshell/beanshell

Good question.

And I am not an expert on the topic.

But to my understanding then:
* they are relative similar in language syntax and features today
* they came from a very different (opposite) background:
- BeanShell started as Java interpreter and evolved
into a full script language with optional typing
- Groovy started as a Java-like scripting language
without typing that added typing later
* they are used for different purposes:
- BeanShell is very much used for JSR223 embedded
scripting language in Java applications
- Groovy got a much broader usage:
. web applications (Grails framework, Groovelets)
. more general scripting (the world dominated by
Perl and Python)
. JSR223 embedded scripting language in Java applications
* Groovy is more used than BeanShell - especially
Grails have a reasonable big user base

I have only used BeanShell as embedded script engine
for 100% Java compatible. I have dabbled in Groovy for both
web and scripting.

A job search at dice.com find 239 Groovy jobs and 0
BeanShell jobs. I am sure there are plenty of jobs
where BeanShell is used but its usage is not
important enough to warrant being mentioned in the ad.

Arne

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On 3/3/2024 12:54 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

A job search at dice.com find 239 Groovy jobs and 0
BeanShell jobs. I am sure there are plenty of jobs
where BeanShell is used but its usage is not
important enough to warrant being mentioned in the ad.

Or to to rephrase: "Groovy developer" is a thing while
"BeanShell developer" is not a thing. BeanShell is a skill
like JDBC, JPA, JMS, JNI etc. for a "Java developer".

This is of course totally non-technicial. But it is
how the languages are perceived in the industry.

IMHO. YMMV.

Arne

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On 2024-03-03, Arne Vajh�j <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 3/3/2024 12:54 PM, Arne Vajh�j wrote:

A job search at dice.com find 239 Groovy jobs and 0
BeanShell jobs. I am sure there are plenty of jobs
where BeanShell is used but its usage is not
important enough to warrant being mentioned in the ad.

Or to to rephrase: "Groovy developer" is a thing while
"BeanShell developer" is not a thing. BeanShell is a skill
like JDBC, JPA, JMS, JNI etc. for a "Java developer".

$ set response/mode=good_natured

Hmmm, I wonder how many Java developers claiming JNI as a "skill"
could actually _use_ JNI (and make it work!) ? :-)

JNI requires a very different mindset and knowledge base than most
of the other Java development skills...

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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On 3/3/24 11:54 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 3/3/2024 9:38 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

On 3/2/24 7:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

Two more tech demo's.

VMS Tech Demo 14 - Groovy for scripting:
   https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd14.html

How does Groovy compare to BeanShell?

https://github.com/beanshell/beanshell

Good question.

And I am not an expert on the topic.

But to my understanding then:
* they are relative similar in language syntax and features today
* they came from a very different (opposite) background:
  - BeanShell started as  Java interpreter and evolved
    into a full script language with optional typing
  - Groovy started as a Java-like scripting language
    without typing that added typing later
* they are used for different purposes:
  - BeanShell is very much used for JSR223 embedded
    scripting language in Java applications
  - Groovy got a much broader usage:
    . web applications (Grails framework, Groovelets)
    . more general scripting (the world dominated by
      Perl and Python)
    . JSR223 embedded scripting language in Java applications
* Groovy is more used than BeanShell - especially
  Grails have a reasonable big user base

I have only used BeanShell as embedded script engine
for 100% Java compatible. I have dabbled in Groovy for both
web and scripting.

That makes sense. I don't do much with Java very often and I've never encountered Groovy in the wild; I've only encountered BeanShell once and
it was embedded in an app specifically for making that app's
capabilities scriptable, so even my very limited experience is
consistent with yours.

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On 3/4/2024 8:16 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-03-03, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 3/3/2024 12:54 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

A job search at dice.com find 239 Groovy jobs and 0
BeanShell jobs. I am sure there are plenty of jobs
where BeanShell is used but its usage is not
important enough to warrant being mentioned in the ad.

Or to to rephrase: "Groovy developer" is a thing while
"BeanShell developer" is not a thing. BeanShell is a skill
like JDBC, JPA, JMS, JNI etc. for a "Java developer".

$ set response/mode=good_natured

Hmmm, I wonder how many Java developers claiming JNI as a "skill"
could actually _use_ JNI (and make it work!) ? :-)

JNI requires a very different mindset and knowledge base than most
of the other Java development skills...

True.

JNI is tricky (read: it sucks).

But in 5-10 years JNI will hopefully be replaced by
Foreign Function.

Arne

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On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 15:49:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

JNI is tricky (read: it sucks).

I managed to do some stuff in Android with it, back in the day. I
created a Python script
<https://bitbucket.org/ldo17/jniglue/src/master/> that generates
slightly more convenient wrappers around the entry points in the
JNIEnv object, e.g. for the NewStringUTF method:

static inline jstring JNNewStringUTF(JNIEnv* env, const char* a1)
{
return
(**env).NewStringUTF(env, a1);
} /*NewStringUTF*/

so you call it like this:

const jstring msgobj = JNNewStringUTF(env, usebuf);

I felt it made things much more bearable.

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On 3/4/2024 4:25 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 15:49:27 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

JNI is tricky (read: it sucks).

I managed to do some stuff in Android with it, back in the day. I
created a Python script
<https://bitbucket.org/ldo17/jniglue/src/master/> that generates
slightly more convenient wrappers around the entry points in the
JNIEnv object, e.g. for the NewStringUTF method:

static inline jstring JNNewStringUTF(JNIEnv* env, const char* a1)
{
return
(**env).NewStringUTF(env, a1);
} /*NewStringUTF*/

so you call it like this:

const jstring msgobj = JNNewStringUTF(env, usebuf);

I felt it made things much more bearable.

That converts the C++ API to a C API, but there is more
hassle in JNI than that.

Arne

PS: (**env).Foobar is rather unusual - the common style is
(*env)->Foobar.

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On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 19:17:03 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

That converts the C++ API to a C API ...

No, it’s all strictly C.

PS: (**env).Foobar is rather unusual - the common style is
(*env)->Foobar.

I don’t understand why. It’s the same number of characters either way.

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On 3/4/2024 8:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 19:17:03 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

That converts the C++ API to a C API ...

No, it’s all strictly C.

Your code is C. And I suspect the JNI code being called is C as well.

But I consider:

f(a1, a2, a3) to be C++

f(o, a1, a2, a3) to be C

f(o, a1, a2, a3) to be C++ API in C language

PS: (**env).Foobar is rather unusual - the common style is
(*env)->Foobar.

I don’t understand why. It’s the same number of characters either way.

True. But if you look at examples in documentation and elsewhere, then ...

Arne

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On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 17:48:21 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But I consider:

f(a1, a2, a3) to be C++

If you can refer to o as “this”, that’s C++. You can’t do that in C.

Learn to tell the difference.

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On 3/5/2024 7:34 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 3/5/2024 5:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 17:48:21 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But I consider:

f(a1, a2, a3) to be C++

If you can refer to o as “this”, that’s C++. You can’t do that in C.

But this is not available by magic. It is there because
it (at least in some implementations - I doubt that the
standard define the "how") pass it as a hidden 1st argument.

To illustrate:

$ type m.cxx
#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

class C
{
public:
virtual void M1(int v) = 0; // C++ API in C++
virtual void M2(char *s) = 0; // C++ API in C++
};

class C1 : public C
{
public:
void M1(int v) { cout << "C1 says: " << v << endl; }
void M2(char *s) { cout << "C1 says: " << s << endl; }
};

class C2: public C
{
public:
void M1(int v) { cout << "C2 says: " << v << endl; }
void M2(char *s) { cout << "C2 says: " << s << endl; }
};

extern "C"
{
void f(C **o);
}

int main()
{
C *o1 = new C1();
f(&o1);
delete o1;
C *o2 = new C2();
f(&o2);
delete o2;
return 0;
}

$ type s.c
#include <stdio.h>

struct C;

typedef void (*fptr1)(struct C **this, int v); // C++ API in C
typedef void (*fptr2)(struct C **this, char *s); // C++ API in C

struct C_vtable
{
fptr1 M1;
fptr2 M2;
};

struct C
{
struct C_vtable *vtable;
};

void f(struct C **o)
{
(*o)->vtable->M1(o, 123);
(*o)->vtable->M2(o, "ABC");
}
$ cxx m
$ cc s
$ cxxlink m + s
$ run m
C1 says: 123
C1 says: ABC
C2 says: 123
C2 says: ABC

Arne

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On 3/5/2024 5:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 17:48:21 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But I consider:

f(a1, a2, a3) to be C++

If you can refer to o as “this”, that’s C++. You can’t do that in C.

But this is not available by magic. It is there because
it (at least in some implementations - I doubt that the
standard define the "how") pass it as a hidden 1st argument.

Arne

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On 06/03/2024 00:39, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

Arne

As others have said - Don't feed the troll, especially when he turns
into a nasty b*stard


--
Chris

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On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 19:34:09 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 3/5/2024 5:53 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Tue, 5 Mar 2024 17:48:21 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But I consider:

f(a1, a2, a3) to be C++

If you can refer to o as “this”, that’s C++. You can’t do that in C.

But this is not available by magic.

It’s part of the language. That’s one way to tell that it’s C++ and not C.

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On 3/2/2024 8:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

Two more tech demo's.

VMS Tech Demo 14 - Groovy for scripting:
  https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd14.html

Covering:
* basic scripting
* using to SYS$ and LIB$ functions
* accessing index-sequential files, databases and message queues

VMS Tech Demo 15 - Groovy for applications:
  https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd15.html

Covering:
* Groovy calling Java
* Java calling Groovy
* Groovy calling C/Pascal/Basic
* C/Pascal/Basic calling Groovy

The third to complete the Groovy demos.

https://www.vajhoej.dk/arne/articles/vmstd16.html

VMS Tech Demo 16 - Groovy for web

Covering:
* web services (SOAP, XML-RPC, REST)
* CGI scripts
* Groovelets
* Grails

Most of it is actually copied either in slightly modified
version or as is from other articles, so it is more an extract
of Groovy stuff from multiple articles than it is new
material.

Arne

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