• Re: HPE Integrity emulator

    From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Billquist on Tue Feb 27 18:02:00 2024
    In article <tdaror$bap$1@news.misty.com>, bqt@softjar.se (Johnny
    Billquist) wrote:

    On 2022-08-14 14:28, Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:
    Doesn't work for me. Gives "www.irisa.fr doesn't respond".

    First hit when googling "irisa" is www.irisa.fr, but doesn't work
    either.
    Seems to have stopped working for me as well now.
    I got the link from the Itanium wikipedia page.

    Working now, and I took the chance to grab all the files.

    John

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  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Tue Feb 27 18:23:06 2024
    On 2024-02-27, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
    In article <tdaror$bap$1@news.misty.com>, bqt@softjar.se (Johnny
    Billquist) wrote:

    On 2022-08-14 14:28, Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:
    Doesn't work for me. Gives "www.irisa.fr doesn't respond".

    First hit when googling "irisa" is www.irisa.fr, but doesn't work
    either.
    Seems to have stopped working for me as well now.
    I got the link from the Itanium wikipedia page.

    Working now, and I took the chance to grab all the files.


    Is this a full-system emulator or just a CPU emulator ?

    [From what I can tell from the webpage, it appears to be another CPU
    emulator only, just like Ski.]

    Thanks,

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Tue Feb 27 22:29:00 2024
    In article <url9aa$3beds$1@dont-email.me>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:

    Is this a full-system emulator or just a CPU emulator ?

    [From what I can tell from the webpage, it appears to be another CPU
    emulator only, just like Ski.]

    A bit more than just a CPU emulator, but not a full-system emulator. From
    the documentation PDF:

    * ISA library
    A library that implements the IA64 instruction set.
    * ELF library
    A library that implements the support for IA64 binary executables
    ((this does not handle dynamic linking at present)).
    * KRN library
    A library that implements the support for Linux compatible IA64
    system calls ((as far as Kernel 2.4)).
    * MAC library
    A library that implements the support for detailed architectural
    simulation.
    * ECU library
    A library that implements the support for special architectures.

    If the documentation is correct, then making an IA64 VMS emulator for
    x96-64 VMS would require, at least:

    * Extending the ELF library to cope with dynamically linked executables
    and libraries.
    * Creating a system call translation layer for VMS. This would be a lot
    easier with the VMS source available.
    * Fixing bugs that doubtless exist in the libraries.
    * Getting the instruction set library to run at a reasonable speed.

    John

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  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Wed Feb 28 18:03:13 2024
    On 2024-02-27, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

    If the documentation is correct, then making an IA64 VMS emulator for
    x96-64 VMS would require, at least:

    * Extending the ELF library to cope with dynamically linked executables
    and libraries.
    * Creating a system call translation layer for VMS. This would be a lot
    easier with the VMS source available.
    * Fixing bugs that doubtless exist in the libraries.
    * Getting the instruction set library to run at a reasonable speed.


    Thanks John.

    So direct execution of some standalone Itanium VMS user-mode executables
    might be possible with enough effort, but no running Itanium VMS as an
    entity in its own right.

    It really does speak to how complex the Itanium architecture is that
    nobody has ever done an Itanium full-system emulator. :-)

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Feb 28 14:20:36 2024
    On 2/28/2024 1:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-02-27, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
    If the documentation is correct, then making an IA64 VMS emulator for
    x96-64 VMS would require, at least:

    * Extending the ELF library to cope with dynamically linked executables
    and libraries.
    * Creating a system call translation layer for VMS. This would be a lot
    easier with the VMS source available.
    * Fixing bugs that doubtless exist in the libraries.
    * Getting the instruction set library to run at a reasonable speed.

    So direct execution of some standalone Itanium VMS user-mode executables might be possible with enough effort, but no running Itanium VMS as an
    entity in its own right.

    It really does speak to how complex the Itanium architecture is that
    nobody has ever done an Itanium full-system emulator. :-)

    That and lack of demand (demand = businesses willing to
    pay for such an emulator not hobbyists that think it could
    be fun with such an emulator).

    Maybe it will change. HP-UX is not being ported to x86-64
    as far as I know, so *if* some businesses do not want to
    migrate from HP-UX/Itanium to Linux/x86-64, then demand
    for an Itanium emulator may rise.

    (note the *if* - I don't know any HP-UX people)

    Arne

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  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to Simon Clubley on Wed Feb 28 16:39:56 2024
    On 2/28/2024 1:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-02-27, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

    If the documentation is correct, then making an IA64 VMS emulator for
    x96-64 VMS would require, at least:

    * Extending the ELF library to cope with dynamically linked executables
    and libraries.
    * Creating a system call translation layer for VMS. This would be a lot
    easier with the VMS source available.
    * Fixing bugs that doubtless exist in the libraries.
    * Getting the instruction set library to run at a reasonable speed.


    Thanks John.

    So direct execution of some standalone Itanium VMS user-mode executables might be possible with enough effort, but no running Itanium VMS as an
    entity in its own right.

    It really does speak to how complex the Itanium architecture is that
    nobody has ever done an Itanium full-system emulator. :-)

    Simon.


    What would be the point?

    Before it was considered a bad idea, it was still available. They are still available used. I got one which hasn't been powered on in months. Want it?

    Emulators allowed use of discontinued architectures that people actually wanted to run. I don't know anyone who really wants to run an itanic. Do you?

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to davef@tsoft-inc.com on Wed Feb 28 23:10:00 2024
    Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
    Before it was considered a bad idea, it was still available. They are still >available used. I got one which hasn't been powered on in months. Want it?

    Emulators allowed use of discontinued architectures that people actually wanted
    to run. I don't know anyone who really wants to run an itanic. Do you?

    Well, that's sort of the thing. MAYBE the Itanium might actually have been
    a viable architecture if the compilers could have been made smart enough.
    But this turned out to be a whole lot harder than the Intel crew expected.

    The idea was that with the long instruction word, compilers could have
    multiple operations taking place across the chip in ways that pipelining microcoded machines could not do. But in fact, the actual utilization of processor elements was much worse when it actually came down to the wire.
    Could this have been corrected with smarter compilers? That's the question nobody can really answer. And now there is no interest in answering it. --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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  • From Hans Bachner@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 29 00:57:33 2024
    Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 28.02.2024 um 20:20:
    On 2/28/2024 1:03 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
    On 2024-02-27, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:
    If the documentation is correct, then making an IA64 VMS emulator for
    x96-64 VMS would require, at least:

    * Extending the ELF library to cope with dynamically linked executables
       and libraries.
    * Creating a system call translation layer for VMS. This would be a lot
       easier with the VMS source available.
    * Fixing bugs that doubtless exist in the libraries.
    * Getting the instruction set library to run at a reasonable speed.

    So direct execution of some standalone Itanium VMS user-mode executables
    might be possible with enough effort, but no running Itanium VMS as an
    entity in its own right.

    It really does speak to how complex the Itanium architecture is that
    nobody has ever done an Itanium full-system emulator. :-)

    That and lack of demand (demand = businesses willing to
    pay for such an emulator not hobbyists that think it could
    be fun with such an emulator).

    Maybe it will change. HP-UX is not being ported to x86-64
    as far as I know, so *if* some businesses do not want to
    migrate from HP-UX/Itanium to Linux/x86-64, then demand
    for an Itanium emulator may rise.

    (note the *if* - I don't know any HP-UX people)

    Well... I know VMS customers who stepped back from Itanium to Alpha
    because an Alpha emulator was available (they used a specific PCI(e)
    card for their application).

    HP-UX customers could step back to PA-RISC instead of porting to Linux. Stromasys offers a PA-RISC emulator.

    Hans.

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to Hans Bachner on Wed Feb 28 19:23:23 2024
    On 2/28/2024 6:57 PM, Hans Bachner wrote:
    Arne Vajhøj schrieb am 28.02.2024 um 20:20:
    Maybe it will change. HP-UX is not being ported to x86-64
    as far as I know, so *if* some businesses do not want to
    migrate from HP-UX/Itanium to Linux/x86-64, then demand
    for an Itanium emulator may rise.

    (note the *if* - I don't know any HP-UX people)

    Well... I know VMS customers who stepped back from Itanium to Alpha
    because an Alpha emulator was available (they used a specific PCI(e)
    card for their application).

    HP-UX customers could step back to PA-RISC instead of porting to Linux. Stromasys offers a PA-RISC emulator.

    HP-UX/PA - I was not even aware that recent HP-UX still run on PA.

    That could be an option for the HP-UX people.

    Does the relevant ISV's like Oracle still support HP-UX/PA?

    Arne

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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 29 08:06:00 2024
    In article <uro126$1pab$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhj)
    wrote:

    Maybe it will change. HP-UX is not being ported to x86-64
    as far as I know, so *if* some businesses do not want to
    migrate from HP-UX/Itanium to Linux/x86-64, then demand
    for an Itanium emulator may rise.

    HP-UX isn't all that different from Linux, and I seriously doubt there
    would be enough businesses that want to stay with HP-UX badly enough.

    John

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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 29 08:39:00 2024
    In article <uroeg8$b8$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    Well, that's sort of the thing. MAYBE the Itanium might actually
    have been a viable architecture if the compilers could have been
    made smart enough. But this turned out to be a whole lot harder
    than the Intel crew expected.

    No, it couldn't. The problem is the delays in accessing memory.

    EPIC requires the compilers to issue speculative loads far enough in
    advance to keep the processor from stalling waiting for memory for most
    of the time. However, that doesn't work: the information isn't available
    enough of the time. The compiler also doesn't know what's in what level
    of cache, because it's /impossible/ to know that when code is running on
    a multi-tasking OS that is taking interrupts.

    Out-of-order execution, as used on modern x86 processors (and ARM, POWER,
    IBM Z, and anything else that's still competitive) deals with the memory
    and cache problems by letting the data dependencies for instructions be resolved dynamically as data arrives. This works much better.

    EPIC only made sense in a system that was running a single process and
    taking few, if any, interrupts. That was how early embedded systems,
    which were Intel's original market, worked in the 1970s and early 1980s.
    Trying to apply that to a processor that appeared in 2001 was a massive
    failure of concept and project management. Itanium was obsolete when it shipped.

    John

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Thu Feb 29 10:50:44 2024
    On 2/29/2024 3:06 AM, John Dallman wrote:
    In article <uro126$1pab$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj) wrote:
    Maybe it will change. HP-UX is not being ported to x86-64
    as far as I know, so *if* some businesses do not want to
    migrate from HP-UX/Itanium to Linux/x86-64, then demand
    for an Itanium emulator may rise.

    HP-UX isn't all that different from Linux, and I seriously doubt there
    would be enough businesses that want to stay with HP-UX badly enough.

    Could be.

    People liking HP-UX and liking Itanium may be a very small group.

    Arne

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  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Thu Feb 29 13:11:40 2024
    On 2/29/2024 12:49 PM, John Dallman wrote:
    In article <urq94k$m8rf$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj) wrote:
    On 2/29/2024 3:06 AM, John Dallman wrote:
    HP-UX isn't all that different from Linux, and I seriously doubt
    there would be enough businesses that want to stay with HP-UX
    badly enough.
    People liking HP-UX and liking Itanium may be a very small group.

    "Liking" doesn't mean so much when lots of money is involved. A decade
    ago, a fair few people may have expressed loyalty to HP-UX/Itanium, but
    it was obvious then that it wasn't going to grow, and the writing has
    been on the wall for Itanium since 2019.

    Moving almost any kind of HP-UX software to Linux is much easier than
    moving VMS software that uses VMS hard to anything else.

    John


    Yes, and while I've never been in this situation, some users must have well documented testing and validation of their software. This can involve large amounts of that money you mention. It could be possible for some that just about anything is cheaper than a new validation job.

    It would be my guess that anyone is such a situation just might have the re-validation to do if switching to an emulator.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 29 17:49:00 2024
    In article <urq94k$m8rf$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhj)
    wrote:
    On 2/29/2024 3:06 AM, John Dallman wrote:
    HP-UX isn't all that different from Linux, and I seriously doubt
    there would be enough businesses that want to stay with HP-UX
    badly enough.
    People liking HP-UX and liking Itanium may be a very small group.

    "Liking" doesn't mean so much when lots of money is involved. A decade
    ago, a fair few people may have expressed loyalty to HP-UX/Itanium, but
    it was obvious then that it wasn't going to grow, and the writing has
    been on the wall for Itanium since 2019.

    Moving almost any kind of HP-UX software to Linux is much easier than
    moving VMS software that uses VMS hard to anything else.

    John

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  • From Simon Clubley@21:1/5 to Dave Froble on Thu Feb 29 18:12:31 2024
    On 2024-02-28, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

    What would be the point?


    With x86-64 VMS, very little.

    Before it was considered a bad idea, it was still available. They are still available used. I got one which hasn't been powered on in months. Want it?


    No. :-) Noisy, bulky hardware, neither of which is true when running it
    in an emulated environment.

    Emulators allowed use of discontinued architectures that people actually wanted
    to run. I don't know anyone who really wants to run an itanic. Do you?


    5 years ago, maybe. Today, no way.

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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  • From Dave Froble@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Thu Feb 29 13:16:10 2024
    On 2/29/2024 3:39 AM, John Dallman wrote:
    In article <uroeg8$b8$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

    Well, that's sort of the thing. MAYBE the Itanium might actually
    have been a viable architecture if the compilers could have been
    made smart enough. But this turned out to be a whole lot harder
    than the Intel crew expected.

    No, it couldn't. The problem is the delays in accessing memory.

    EPIC requires the compilers to issue speculative loads far enough in
    advance to keep the processor from stalling waiting for memory for most
    of the time. However, that doesn't work: the information isn't available enough of the time. The compiler also doesn't know what's in what level
    of cache, because it's /impossible/ to know that when code is running on
    a multi-tasking OS that is taking interrupts.

    Out-of-order execution, as used on modern x86 processors (and ARM, POWER,
    IBM Z, and anything else that's still competitive) deals with the memory
    and cache problems by letting the data dependencies for instructions be resolved dynamically as data arrives. This works much better.

    EPIC only made sense in a system that was running a single process and
    taking few, if any, interrupts. That was how early embedded systems,
    which were Intel's original market, worked in the 1970s and early 1980s. Trying to apply that to a processor that appeared in 2001 was a massive failure of concept and project management. Itanium was obsolete when it shipped.

    John


    In case we're looking for "blame", remember that EPIC wasn't Intel's brain fart,
    it came from HP, who somehow got Intel to adopt it. You are correct, EPIC was shown to be a poor choice before it even shipped. But someone(s) were too stubborn to listen to their own people.

    --
    David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
    Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com
    DFE Ultralights, Inc.
    170 Grimplin Road
    Vanderbilt, PA 15486

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=C3=B8j?=@21:1/5 to John Dallman on Thu Feb 29 14:00:26 2024
    On 2/29/2024 12:49 PM, John Dallman wrote:
    In article <urq94k$m8rf$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj) wrote:
    On 2/29/2024 3:06 AM, John Dallman wrote:
    HP-UX isn't all that different from Linux, and I seriously doubt
    there would be enough businesses that want to stay with HP-UX
    badly enough.
    People liking HP-UX and liking Itanium may be a very small group.

    "Liking" doesn't mean so much when lots of money is involved. A decade
    ago, a fair few people may have expressed loyalty to HP-UX/Itanium, but
    it was obvious then that it wasn't going to grow, and the writing has
    been on the wall for Itanium since 2019.

    I think the writing has been on the wall for Itanium since
    the late 00's.

    Moving almost any kind of HP-UX software to Linux is much easier than
    moving VMS software that uses VMS hard to anything else.

    Yes. Oracle DB, other RDBMS (Sybase, Informix), Apache httpd,
    various Java EE servers (WAS, WL, JBoss, Tomcat etc.), custom
    Java SE applications, custom C++ applications etc. all run
    just as well on Linux as on HP-UX. So the companies have
    the choice.

    Arne

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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Froble on Thu Feb 29 19:39:00 2024
    In article <urqhct$o3p3$1@dont-email.me>, davef@tsoft-inc.com (Dave
    Froble) wrote:

    Yes, and while I've never been in this situation, some users must
    have well documented testing and validation of their software.

    Organisations that have that also tend to have functional planning for
    their futures. Those will have been aware for the last five years that
    Itanium was ending.

    This can involve large amounts of that money you mention. It could
    be possible for some that just about anything is cheaper than a new validation job.

    Maybe, but I doubt this will be common.

    It would be my guess that anyone is such a situation just might
    have the re-validation to do if switching to an emulator.

    Indeed, but they have the significant problem that there is no emulator available. That has been true for the whole period since the end of life
    for Itanium was announced. Hoping that someone will come out with one is optimistic, to say the least.

    John

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  • From John Dallman@21:1/5 to Kerry Main c.o.v. on Sat Apr 6 23:10:00 2024
    In article <mailman.2.1712434050.27336.info-vax_rbnsn.com@rbnsn.com>, kemain.nospam@gmail.com (Kerry Main c.o.v.) wrote:

    Since IA64 was really in its infancy when Intel acquired Alpha
    (rather was forced to acquire Alpha due to legal issues), Intel
    could have decided to drop IA64 and go full speed with next gen
    Alpha development. But, from what I heard, there was a lot of
    "not invented here" culture in Intel, so Alpha dev was pushed
    to the side.

    There was far too much ego-driven decision-making at Intel in those days.
    I made a joking suggestion to them in late 2002 or early 2003 that they
    put IA-64 aside, and introduce "Itanium Pro," otherwise known as the next generation of Alpha to replace it. The Intel engineer I made the
    suggestion to was ex-DEC and thought this was funny, but did not fancy
    passing the idea along.

    And then IA64 was something like 6 or 7 years late to the market,
    which, by this time, x86-64 was out and about, so IA64 never
    really recovered ..

    Itanium shipped in June 2001. AMD Opteron shipped in April 2003. Itanium
    was out first, but the lead didn't allow it to get established.

    John

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