Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is
reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
bill
On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory
structure is
reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
bill
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
don't know.
Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
that directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
temporary, and will be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS
distribution files.
What is your specific question(s)?
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple
tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
having lots of "roots"?
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
On 27/01/2024 17:13, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:The most weird setup I ever used was OS/400 - later i5
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is >>>> reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree. >>>
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having >>> lots of "roots"?
bill
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
It had many different file systems - an IBM one with libraries and disk pools, with db2 as the filesystem, a root (Unix like) filesystem and a few more I never used.
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices, but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another. Useful
unless you knew what was on which drive!
On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is >>> reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:
$ dir/page
[snip]
Why does it shows me two directories?
Den 2024-01-27 kl. 19:02, skrev Chris Townley:
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!
No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical
storage volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 12:13 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple
tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not
having lots of "roots"?
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other directories and other things.
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
don't know.
Looks like some form of octal?
On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
don't know.
Looks like some form of octal?
[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].
I believe it is for backwards compatibility with some PDP-11 OS,
but that is before my time - maybe some of the PDP-11 knowledgable
can either confirm and explain or discard the hypothesis.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?
On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?
Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
Let us start with the practical version.
In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.
When opening an existing file all in the list are searched.
When creating a new file it get created in the first
in the list.
It is rarely used by VMS users.
But it is used by VMS itself.
SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[SYSn.SYSMGR]
SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR] is really disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] *and* disk:[SYSn.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR]
It is a cluster thing.
disk:[SYS0.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 0
disk:[SYS1.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 1
disk:[SYS2.SYSMGR] contains file specific for node 2
disk:[VMS$COMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] = disk:[SYS2.SYSCOMMON.SYSMGR] contains
files shared by all 3 nodes
So as a system manager you can have COM files specific for a node
or shared for all nodes.
Powerful.
But also potential confusing.
Here comes a user example.
$ dir [...]
Directory DKA0:[arne.fun]
fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1
Total of 2 files.
Directory DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun]
morefun.txt;1
Total of 1 file.
Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.
$ define/nolog funroot DKA0:[arne.fun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ define/nolog morefunroot DKA0:[arne.fun.morefun.] /transl=(conc,term)
$ dir funroot:[000000]
Directory FUNROOT:[000000]
fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1
Total of 2 files.
$ dir morefunroot:[000000]
Directory MOREFUNROOT:[000000]
morefun.txt;1
Total of 1 file.
$ define/nolog doublefunroot funroot,morefunroot
$ dir doublefunroot:[000000]
Directory funroot:[000000]
fun.txt;1 morefun.DIR;1
Total of 2 files.
Directory morefunroot:[000000]
morefun.txt;1
Total of 1 file.
Grand total of 2 directories, 3 files.
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
[ snip ]
Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
don't know.
Looks like some form of octal?
Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
that directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
temporary, and will be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS
distribution files.
What is your specific question(s)?
All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26 IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
LAN$ACP.LOG;28
LAN$ACP.LOG;27 LAN$ACP.LOG;26 MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1 NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
OPERATOR.LOG;30 OPERATOR.LOG;29 OPERATOR.LOG;28 ssh.DIR;1 SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1 SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2 SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26 SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1 TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
VMSIMAGES.DAT;1 X86Community-20240401.txt;1
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
ACME$START.COM;1 ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1 AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1 AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?
In article <up3dj4$3f7b4$2@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is >>>> reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having >>> lots of "roots"?
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
- Dan C.
On 1/27/2024 3:05 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
Yes, PDP-11 running RSX. Each user had a user id and group id and oneRSTS had the same thing.
(non-hierarchical) directory of the form [GID, UID].
VMS version 1 was still using a lot of RSX programs, so it used this
form for compatibility.
[0,0] is a synonym for [000000].
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
Den 2024-01-27 kl. 19:02, skrev Chris Townley:
What really upset me was some early *nixs that hid the drive devices,
but wouldn't let you rename (mv) files from one device to another.
Useful unless you knew what was on which drive!
No different from VMS. You can only RENAME within the same physical
storage volume/disk. Between different volumes/disks, you need to COPY.
Yes. But disks are visible in the full file names, so you know.
Arne
On 1/27/2024 1:48 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 00:32 -0500, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
[ snip ]
Each disk has what you are calling a root directory. Within it are
top level directorys. The "ROOT" can be addressed as [0,0],
[000000], or [000,000]. Don't ask me why more than one method. I
don't know.
Looks like some form of octal?
Do note that one should never, well almost never, place anything in
that directory. I've been guilty of doing so, when the disk is
temporary, and will be re-inited sometime. Usually some OS
distribution files.
What is your specific question(s)?
All is good, I understand now what the folder structure is like for
each disk.
In my system account when I log in and run the dir command it shows me
this:
$ dir/page
Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
ACCOUNTNG.DAT;1 CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;28
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;27
CLUE$STARTUP_KAKAPO.LOG;26 IOGEN$PREFIX.DAT;1
LAN$ACP.LOG;28
LAN$ACP.LOG;27 LAN$ACP.LOG;26 MAIN.TPU$JOURNAL;1
NET$INSTALL_IDENTIFIERS.LOG;1
OPERATOR.LOG;30 OPERATOR.LOG;29 OPERATOR.LOG;28 ssh.DIR;1
SSHD_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;1 SSH_CONFIG_.TPU$JOURNAL;2
SYS$DUMP_CONFIG.DAT;1 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;28
SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;27 SYS$SMHANDLER.LOG;26
SYSTARTUP_VMS.JOU;1 TCPIP$CONFIG_CONVERSION.FLG;1
TCPIP$V51_CONVERSION.FLG;1
VMSIMAGES.DAT;1 X86Community-20240401.txt;1
Total of 25 files.
Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
ACME$START.COM;1 ACME$START.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_NODE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1
AGEN$NEW_SATELLITE_DEFAULTS.TEMPLATE;1 AMDS$DIAGNOSTICS.COM;1
AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.DAT;1 AMDS$DRIVER_ACCESS.TEMPLATE;1
[ snip ]
Why does it shows me two directories?
It can be a bit confusing until you understand the rather neat thing
that was done with VMS.
I guess there was the desire to allow for multiple copies of the OS on
the system disk. Thus SYS0, SYS1, SYS2, ...
And regarding the technical stuff behind it, then
it is possible because:
* the device part and the directory part of default
are store separately (in a logical SYS$DISK and
in process memory respectively)
* the device part does not need to be a device only
but can be a device plus a directory accessed via
a so called rooted logical
* a logical can have multiple values
The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!
It now makes sense, each disk has the root folder containing other directories and other things.
Yes.
000000.dir is the root directory on each disk.
It is a little bit special that it contains itself.
disk:[foobar]
disk:[000000.foobar]
disk:[000000.000000.foobar]
are all the same.
Why does it shows me two directories?
Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
Let us start with the practical version.
In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.
On 1/27/2024 2:38 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
- Dan C.
But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.
Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
The Pr1mos team, of course! Love those MFDs!
On Sat, 2024-01-27 at 15:06 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
Why does it shows me two directories?
Now it starts to become a little bit tricky to explain.
Let us start with the practical version.
In VMS "default directory" does not need to be
a single directory - it can actually be a list of
directories.
Ah that bit does make sense, logicals are why we can see more than one directory.
This makes sense:
$ sh def
SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
= SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]
= SYS$COMMON:[SYSMGR]
So, it is the logicals that are used with dir to show us the files and folders. Pretty nifty, just have to make sure when I add files, I need
to be in the correct folder, yes? By default it puts files into the
first directory, as you've mentioned previously.
The reason that SYS0, SYS1, etc was needed is that even systems booting
with the same OS (in [SYSCOMMON]) need specific data, such as system parameters and sometimes specific DCL procedures.
By having SYS$SYSROOT defined as a search list to SYS$SPECIFIC,
SYS$COMMON, automatically first the specific data for that node was
selected and if not present, then the common data. Log files were
written in the SYS$SPECIFIC part.
On Sun, 28 Jan 2024 14:38:39 +0100, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
The reason that SYS0, SYS1, etc was needed is that even systems booting
with the same OS (in [SYSCOMMON]) need specific data, such as system
parameters and sometimes specific DCL procedures.
By having SYS$SYSROOT defined as a search list to SYS$SPECIFIC,
SYS$COMMON, automatically first the specific data for that node was
selected and if not present, then the common data. Log files were
written in the SYS$SPECIFIC part.
VMS never had a clear separation between where you put code, read-only
data, user/admin-writable config files, and system-writable data, did it? E.g. FHS-style /usr/bin for ordinary executables, /usr/sbin for sysadmin- specific executables, /usr/lib for shareable libraries, /usr/share for read-only data (architecture-independent), /etc for modifiable config
files, /var/log for logfiles, /var/lib for important system-writable data.
On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is >>> reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having
lots of "roots"?
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
In article <up4307$3iq8f$1@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 1/27/2024 2:38 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)
Hah!
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.
I suppose. But generally, at least we acknowledge that as being
subjective.
On 2024-01-27, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 1/27/2024 8:52 AM, bill wrote:
On 1/27/2024 12:32 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
On 1/26/2024 3:32 PM, Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
Unix has some great tools for searching for folders and files. Are
there similar ones in VMS like `grep` or `find`?
THe folder structure in OpenVMS is wierd... what's the root folder
equivalent is it [000000] or is it cleverer than that?
No, the Unix directory structure is weird, the VMS directory structure is >>>> reasonable.
What is weird about the Unix directory structure? It is a simple tree.
In what way is it different from the VMS structure other than not having >>> lots of "roots"?
Because I'm familiar with the VMS structure ???
Try using z/OS sometime. :-)
Simon.
On 2024-01-28, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
In article <up4307$3iq8f$1@dont-email.me>,
Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 1/27/2024 2:38 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
Defining something as "weird" because you're not familiar with
it isn't very enlightened. If that's the metric one judges by,
consider how many orders of magnitude more people these days
will call VMS's filesystem layout "weird" because it's different
than something they are more familiar with, such as Linux, the
Mac or Windows. Who's to say who's right under such subjective
criteria?
But, most here already know that I'm not enlightened ...
:-)
Hah!
As for "right", well, usually it's in the eye of the beholder.
I suppose. But generally, at least we acknowledge that as being
subjective.
$ set response/mode=good_natured
Don't be too hard on David, Dan. He still likes to use line numbers
in his BASIC code... :-)
Simon.
On 1/29/2024 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
Try using z/OS sometime. :-)
NO! Just no.
On 2024-01-29, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
On 1/29/2024 8:11 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
Try using z/OS sometime. :-)
NO! Just no.
Oh, David, open your mind to new knowledge-learning possibilities. :-)
Simon.
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