On 15 Jan 2024 18:50:23 -0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

... the indentation syntax in Python drives me insane.

I used a number of different languages over the years, and gradually (and sometimes painfully) evolved some common conventions that I have stuck to regardless of the language. (You should see how I lay out my Lisp code,
for example. Oh, and I like to leave off the semicolons in JavaScript as
well.) By the time I got to Python, I found that its indentation
requirements actually fitted in fine with the way I like to indent my
code.

What I didn’t like was the loss of redundancy: in a conventional free-form language, you have the statement bracketing and the indentation
conventions both saying the same thing in different ways. By making the indentation act as statement bracketing is well, you lose one of those. So
I put it back by adding “#end” comments to my code.

This actually serves a couple of purposes:
* I have custom commands defined in Emacs to jump between lines with
matching indentation. This nicely takes me between the start and
end of statement blocks.
* Some online forums have been known to strip leading blanks when I try
to post code. Without “#end” comments, this turns Python code into
complete gibberish. With those comments, there is a chance of being
able to repair the corrupted code.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 1/15/24 9:07 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 1/15/2024 9:09 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

It wouldn't hurt to have a
Unix shell always available too just because of how many people are
already familiar with them.  I guess that couldn't be bash given the GPL.

Nothing VMS would be linked with VMS so GPL should not be a problem.

Or maybe I should say "is" instead of "would be".

https://vmssoftware.com/products/gnv/

Would the situation not differ if bash were distributed as part of the
base installation rather than an add-on? I thought that was why Apple
moved away from bash as the default shell. But IANAL.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 1/16/2024 8:56 AM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

On 1/15/24 9:07 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 1/15/2024 9:09 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:

It wouldn't hurt to have a
Unix shell always available too just because of how many people are
already familiar with them.  I guess that couldn't be bash given the
GPL.

Nothing VMS would be linked with VMS so GPL should not be a problem.

Or maybe I should say "is" instead of "would be".

https://vmssoftware.com/products/gnv/

Would the situation not differ if bash were distributed as part of the
base installation rather than an add-on?

I don't think so.

I believe the operational phrases are "linked with" and "combined with"
not whether they are distributed together or separate.

Consider the scenario:
- library XYZ is under GPL
- program ABC use library XYZ
- does the question whether ABC need to be available under GPL depend on
whether abc.zip contains xyz or whether it does not and users need
to download xyz from another site?
- the general expectation is that ABC need to be available under GPL
no matter the distribution

  I thought that was why Apple
moved away from bash as the default shell.  But IANAL.

That is actually a good question. And Google is not my friend today.

Apple switched from old bash (GPL V2) to zsh (MIT) instead of to
new bash (GPL V3).

The internet per Google search seems a bit unclear about exactly why.

Some say that Apple do not like the patent stuff in GPL V3
not present in GPL V2.

Some say that Apple want to sign executables on iOS and that
is incompatible with GPL right to modify and replace.

Arne

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <uo63ei$1fo5f$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajh�j)
wrote:

Apple switched from old bash (GPL V2) to zsh (MIT) instead of to
new bash (GPL V3).

The internet per Google search seems a bit unclear about exactly
why.

Some say that Apple do not like the patent stuff in GPL V3
not present in GPL V2.

They probably don't. Their attitude to patents is interesting. Their
developer agreement, which you have to sign to be able to run iOS code
you're developing on iDevices you've bought and paid for, terminates immediately and automatically if you sue Apple for patent infringement.
That's part of the agreement.

Some say that Apple want to sign executables on iOS and that
is incompatible with GPL right to modify and replace.

They do not include bash in iOS, at all. It's not hidden, it really isn't there. However, they may well want to sign executables on macOS.

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <memo.20240116175256.3116K@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <uo63ei$1fo5f$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajh�j) >wrote:

Apple switched from old bash (GPL V2) to zsh (MIT) instead of to
new bash (GPL V3).

The internet per Google search seems a bit unclear about exactly
why.

Some say that Apple do not like the patent stuff in GPL V3
not present in GPL V2.

They probably don't. Their attitude to patents is interesting. Their >developer agreement, which you have to sign to be able to run iOS code
you're developing on iDevices you've bought and paid for, terminates >immediately and automatically if you sue Apple for patent infringement. >That's part of the agreement.

Some say that Apple want to sign executables on iOS and that
is incompatible with GPL right to modify and replace.

They do not include bash in iOS, at all. It's not hidden, it really isn't >there. However, they may well want to sign executables on macOS.

Apple ships bash with macOS; it's just not the default shell.
Anyway, if someone wanted to ship a Unix shell with OpenVMS and
they were worried about GPLv3, they could always ship zsh or
tcsh.

- Dan C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 1/16/2024 2:32 PM, Dan Cross wrote:

In article <memo.20240116175256.3116K@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <uo63ei$1fo5f$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
wrote:

Apple switched from old bash (GPL V2) to zsh (MIT) instead of to
new bash (GPL V3).

The internet per Google search seems a bit unclear about exactly
why.

Some say that Apple do not like the patent stuff in GPL V3
not present in GPL V2.

They probably don't. Their attitude to patents is interesting. Their
developer agreement, which you have to sign to be able to run iOS code
you're developing on iDevices you've bought and paid for, terminates
immediately and automatically if you sue Apple for patent infringement.
That's part of the agreement.

Some say that Apple want to sign executables on iOS and that
is incompatible with GPL right to modify and replace.

They do not include bash in iOS, at all. It's not hidden, it really isn't
there. However, they may well want to sign executables on macOS.

Apple ships bash with macOS; it's just not the default shell.

Yes. But bash 3.x under GPL 2 right?

Arne

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 07:56:27 -0600, Craig A. Berry wrote:

I thought that was why Apple
moved away from bash as the default shell. But IANAL.

All versions of Bash were under the GPL. But for some reason Apple has developed an allergy to GPLv3. That”s why you only get an old version with their OS.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 16/01/2024 19:32, Dan Cross wrote:

In article <memo.20240116175256.3116K@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <uo63ei$1fo5f$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj)
wrote:

Apple switched from old bash (GPL V2) to zsh (MIT) instead of to
new bash (GPL V3).

The internet per Google search seems a bit unclear about exactly
why.

Some say that Apple do not like the patent stuff in GPL V3
not present in GPL V2.

They probably don't. Their attitude to patents is interesting. Their
developer agreement, which you have to sign to be able to run iOS code
you're developing on iDevices you've bought and paid for, terminates
immediately and automatically if you sue Apple for patent infringement.
That's part of the agreement.

Some say that Apple want to sign executables on iOS and that
is incompatible with GPL right to modify and replace.

They do not include bash in iOS, at all. It's not hidden, it really isn't
there. However, they may well want to sign executables on macOS.

Apple ships bash with macOS; it's just not the default shell.
Anyway, if someone wanted to ship a Unix shell with OpenVMS and
they were worried about GPLv3, they could always ship zsh or
tcsh.

- Dan C.

Or ksh

--
Chris

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <uo6m0u$1j680$1@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 1/16/2024 2:32 PM, Dan Cross wrote:

In article <memo.20240116175256.3116K@jgd.cix.co.uk>,
John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <uo63ei$1fo5f$1@dont-email.me>, arne@vajhoej.dk (Arne Vajhøj) >>> wrote:

Apple switched from old bash (GPL V2) to zsh (MIT) instead of to
new bash (GPL V3).

The internet per Google search seems a bit unclear about exactly
why.

Some say that Apple do not like the patent stuff in GPL V3
not present in GPL V2.

They probably don't. Their attitude to patents is interesting. Their
developer agreement, which you have to sign to be able to run iOS code
you're developing on iDevices you've bought and paid for, terminates
immediately and automatically if you sue Apple for patent infringement.
That's part of the agreement.

Some say that Apple want to sign executables on iOS and that
is incompatible with GPL right to modify and replace.

They do not include bash in iOS, at all. It's not hidden, it really isn't >>> there. However, they may well want to sign executables on macOS.

Apple ships bash with macOS; it's just not the default shell.

Yes. But bash 3.x under GPL 2 right?

Yup; appears so:

; bash --version
GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (arm64-apple-darwin23)
Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
; which bash
/bin/bash
; ls -l /bin/bash
-r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 1310224 Dec 15 09:43 /bin/bash
;

- Dan C.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 17:52 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

However, they may well want to sign executables on macOS.

Linux distros have no trouble offering signed packages of open-source
software. Maybe Apple and Microsoft can learn from that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <uo6n9s$pse$1@reader1.panix.com>,
cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

On 1/16/2024 2:32 PM, Dan Cross wrote:

Apple ships bash with macOS; it's just not the default shell.

Yes. But bash 3.x under GPL 2 right?

Yup; appears so:

; bash --version
GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (arm64-apple-darwin23)
Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

Yup, that's the one. They did fix the Shellshock vulnerability in it,
although that happened before they started pushing zsh.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellshock_(software_bug)>

John

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)