On 2024-01-03, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

Me, I regarded Windows 2000 as the peak of their GUI design, and it's
been getting worse, on average, ever since.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with modern GUI designs in
general.

For example, compare the disaster that is GTK4 with the much cleaner GTK2, including how there is no regard to backwards compatibility or fully duplicating existing functionality. Also, just how arrogant and out of
touch modern GUI designers are.

How to move from GTK3 to GTK4 (basically, rewrite your code):

https://docs.gtk.org/gtk4/migrating-3to4.html

One very arrogant GUI designer example from a couple of years ago:

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3787

Basically, more blurry and hard to read text in GTK4 wasn't considered
a problem by the current GTK developers and users were initally told
outright it was not going to be fixed. :-(

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:35:14 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-01-03, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

Me, I regarded Windows 2000 as the peak of their GUI design, and it's
been getting worse, on average, ever since.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with modern GUI designs in
general.

For example, compare the disaster that is GTK4 with the much cleaner
GTK2 ...

Notice what you are comparing here: on the one hand, two different OS
versions, on the other hand, two different versions of a GUI toolkit that
lives entirely in userland.

In the first case, you can only change the GUI by entirely replacing the
OS. In the latter case, it’s just a matter of choosing different packages
to install. In fact, the common Linux distros continue to offer GUI
packages based on all three versions of GTK from GTK2 onwards, so
switching between them is a simple matter of logging out of one and
logging back into another.

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On 1/4/2024 2:32 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:35:14 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-01-03, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

Me, I regarded Windows 2000 as the peak of their GUI design, and it's
been getting worse, on average, ever since.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with modern GUI designs in
general.

For example, compare the disaster that is GTK4 with the much cleaner
GTK2 ...

Notice what you are comparing here: on the one hand, two different OS versions, on the other hand, two different versions of a GUI toolkit that lives entirely in userland.

In the first case, you can only change the GUI by entirely replacing the
OS. In the latter case, it’s just a matter of choosing different packages to install. In fact, the common Linux distros continue to offer GUI
packages based on all three versions of GTK from GTK2 onwards, so
switching between them is a simple matter of logging out of one and
logging back into another.

You can, but will GTK2 and GTK3 stay supported?

Arne

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On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 16:02:01 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

... will GTK2 and GTK3 stay supported?

GTK2 has long since been abandoned by the GNU project, yet that hasn’t stopped other groups from taking it up and continuing to build on it. If necessary, if it turns out that the GTK3→4 transition is also disruptive
(and seen to be unnecessarily so by at least some people), then the same
thing will happen with GTK3.

This is all open source, remember. As long as somebody cares enough to do
the work, a project will continue to live.

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On 1/4/2024 5:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 16:02:01 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

... will GTK2 and GTK3 stay supported?

GTK2 has long since been abandoned by the GNU project, yet that hasn’t stopped other groups from taking it up and continuing to build on it. If necessary, if it turns out that the GTK3→4 transition is also disruptive (and seen to be unnecessarily so by at least some people), then the same thing will happen with GTK3.

This is all open source, remember. As long as somebody cares enough to do
the work, a project will continue to live.

And for some usage that may be OK, but other may be a bit reluctant
about projects being EOL'ed by original team and existing because
some users do not like the newer version.

Arne

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On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 19:55:18 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 1/4/2024 5:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 16:02:01 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

... will GTK2 and GTK3 stay supported?

GTK2 has long since been abandoned by the GNU project, yet that hasn’t
stopped other groups from taking it up and continuing to build on it.
If necessary, if it turns out that the GTK3→4 transition is also
disruptive (and seen to be unnecessarily so by at least some people),
then the same thing will happen with GTK3.

This is all open source, remember. As long as somebody cares enough to
do the work, a project will continue to live.

And for some usage that may be OK, but other may be a bit reluctant
about projects being EOL'ed by original team and existing because some
users do not like the newer version.

They are free to do the same sort of thing: take over development on a
copy of the source, and take it in whatever direction they like. Nobody’s stopping them.

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On 1/4/2024 8:28 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 19:55:18 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 1/4/2024 5:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 16:02:01 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

... will GTK2 and GTK3 stay supported?

GTK2 has long since been abandoned by the GNU project, yet that hasn’t >>> stopped other groups from taking it up and continuing to build on it.
If necessary, if it turns out that the GTK3→4 transition is also
disruptive (and seen to be unnecessarily so by at least some people),
then the same thing will happen with GTK3.

This is all open source, remember. As long as somebody cares enough to
do the work, a project will continue to live.

And for some usage that may be OK, but other may be a bit reluctant
about projects being EOL'ed by original team and existing because some
users do not like the newer version.

They are free to do the same sort of thing: take over development on a
copy of the source, and take it in whatever direction they like. Nobody’s stopping them.

Absolutely true.

But that is not an attractive solution for the vast majority
of potential users.

Arne

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On 1/4/2024 10:06 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 20:46:42 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But that is not an attractive solution for the vast majority
of potential users.

It is a perfectly good solution for those who care about GTK2. It’s not anybody else’s business, is it?

????

The vast majority of companies and home users have neither
skills or desire to do software development.

So no - it is not a perfectly good solution.

Arne

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On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 20:46:42 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But that is not an attractive solution for the vast majority
of potential users.

It is a perfectly good solution for those who care about GTK2. It’s not anybody else’s business, is it?

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On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 22:11:07 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

On 1/4/2024 10:06 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 20:46:42 -0500, Arne Vajhøj wrote:

But that is not an attractive solution for the vast majority of
potential users.

It is a perfectly good solution for those who care about GTK2. It’s not
anybody else’s business, is it?

The vast majority of companies and home users have neither skills or
desire to do software development.

They don’t need to--they can benefit from the work of those who are
willing and able to do it. That’s how Open Source works.

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On 2024-01-04, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 13:35:14 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley wrote:

On 2024-01-03, John Dallman <jgd@cix.co.uk> wrote:

Me, I regarded Windows 2000 as the peak of their GUI design, and it's
been getting worse, on average, ever since.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case with modern GUI designs in
general.

For example, compare the disaster that is GTK4 with the much cleaner
GTK2 ...

Notice what you are comparing here: on the one hand, two different OS versions, on the other hand, two different versions of a GUI toolkit that lives entirely in userland.

No, I am comparing the same: two different GUI designs that have got
worse over time. The fact that one is integrated into the OS and the other
is an add-on user-level module to another OS does not negate the common
factors of how they have evolved for the worse.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.

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On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 13:25:01 -0000 (UTC), Simon Clubley wrote:

The fact that one is integrated into the OS and the
other is an add-on user-level module to another OS does not negate the
common factors of how they have evolved for the worse.

One of them gives users little or no choice; the other one does. So the
fact that the latter continues to exist in so many forms is all down to
users having a choice, and exercising it. The same does not apply to the proprietary platform.

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