Thanks everyone for being so helpful. I am sorry to seem such a noob.
I am downloading .PDFs as I come across them, and combing the Help command...

So far, both of the users I have created find themselves in Basic as soon as they log in. I even tried putting a 'sw dcl' in the login.com. no dice.

Where do I set this?
[1,2] starts in dcl.

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Well, it seems that [1,2] is singled out by the [1,0]LOGIN.COM dcl file for a $ SWITCH DCL.

Next step - set up the [200, group as the "BASIC PROGRAMMERS" and have those jump past the $ SWITCH DCL.
Later - see if I can have the user's LOGIN.COM run after the system LOGIN.COM.




On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 3:27:24 PM UTC-7, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Thanks everyone for being so helpful. I am sorry to seem such a noob.
I am downloading .PDFs as I come across them, and combing the Help command...

So far, both of the users I have created find themselves in Basic as soon as they log in. I even tried putting a 'sw dcl' in the login.com. no dice.

Where do I set this?
[1,2] starts in dcl.

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I'm no RSTS/E expert...

On 2023-08-26 04:36, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Well, it seems that [1,2] is singled out by the [1,0]LOGIN.COM dcl file for a $ SWITCH DCL.

So [1,2] gets into DCL? So switching in LOGIN.COM as such works...

Next step - set up the [200, group as the "BASIC PROGRAMMERS" and have those jump past the $ SWITCH DCL.

Jump past? You mean *not* jump past?

Later - see if I can have the user's LOGIN.COM run after the system LOGIN.COM.

I think I saw a mention that the system wide LOGIN.COM is expected to
invoke the user specific LOGIN.COM if desired? Maybe that is not
currently being done then?

Johnny

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 3:27:24 PM UTC-7, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Thanks everyone for being so helpful. I am sorry to seem such a noob.
I am downloading .PDFs as I come across them, and combing the Help command...

So far, both of the users I have created find themselves in Basic as soon as they log in. I even tried putting a 'sw dcl' in the login.com. no dice.

Where do I set this?
[1,2] starts in dcl.

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On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 7:48:09 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2023-08-26 04:36, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Well, it seems that [1,2] is singled out by the [1,0]LOGIN.COM dcl file for a $ SWITCH DCL.

So [1,2] gets into DCL? So switching in LOGIN.COM as such works...

Next step - set up the [200, group as the "BASIC PROGRAMMERS" and have those jump past the $ SWITCH DCL.

Johnny :> Jump past? You mean *not* jump past?

I don't think so, I mean if someone is [200,*] then skip the $ SWITCH DCL that puts them back into DCL otherwise (anyone who is NOT [200,*] ) gets DCL

Later - see if I can have the user's LOGIN.COM run after the system LOGIN.COM.

Johnny:

I think I saw a mention that the system wide LOGIN.COM is expected to
invoke the user specific LOGIN.COM if desired? Maybe that is not
currently being done then?

It does not seem so. I have a LOGIN.COM that writes a string and does a SW DCL but that does not happen for me [100,102]

Ron and Johnny.

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On 2023-08-27 03:53, Ronald Hudson wrote:

On Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 7:48:09 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2023-08-26 04:36, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Well, it seems that [1,2] is singled out by the [1,0]LOGIN.COM dcl file for a $ SWITCH DCL.

So [1,2] gets into DCL? So switching in LOGIN.COM as such works...

Next step - set up the [200, group as the "BASIC PROGRAMMERS" and have those jump past the $ SWITCH DCL.

Johnny :> Jump past? You mean *not* jump past?

I don't think so, I mean if someone is [200,*] then skip the $ SWITCH DCL that puts them back into DCL otherwise (anyone who is NOT [200,*] ) gets DCL

I thought you said that currently everyone gets BASIC+ as their KBM when
they log in (except [1,2]). So noone is doing the switching to DCL
currently, which would imply that they are currently skipping that.

But maybe I misunderstood something. (But fair enough, you want to keep
the [200,*] still switch to BASIC+, so skip any switching to DCL, once
you actually manage to get some to switch...)

Later - see if I can have the user's LOGIN.COM run after the system LOGIN.COM.

Johnny:

I think I saw a mention that the system wide LOGIN.COM is expected to
invoke the user specific LOGIN.COM if desired? Maybe that is not
currently being done then?

It does not seem so. I have a LOGIN.COM that writes a string and does a SW DCL but that does not happen for me [100,102]

Then I don't get it. Why is only one account managing to switch to DCL?

Johnny

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In the [0,1] login.com:

It said:

$_if F$USER .NES. "[1,2]" THEN SWITCH BASIC

I changed it to:

$_IF F$USER .EQS. "[200," THEN SWITCH BASIC

I am not sure if this will actually work but for now, it lets me log in as me [100,102] and be in DCL.

So, originally everyone but [1,2] did the SWITCH BASIC. Now, I hope that only members of [200,*] will do it. I may not be able to specify a partial string here. So probably what I have here is no one will get Basic at login. I need an F$PROJECT function.

I also found that my local [100,102]login.com is running, but the switch statement there was not having any effect. I put write 0 "Local login.com" and write 0 "end" at the beginning and end and both messages appear at login time.

Also, why are there many underbars in the system login.com? What do they mean?

On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 7:15:35 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Then I don't get it. Why is only one account managing to switch to DCL?

Johnny

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On 2023-08-27 18:20, Ronald Hudson wrote:

In the [0,1] login.com:

It said:

$_if F$USER .NES. "[1,2]" THEN SWITCH BASIC

I changed it to:

$_IF F$USER .EQS. "[200," THEN SWITCH BASIC

I am not sure if this will actually work but for now, it lets me log in as me [100,102] and be in DCL.

Yeah, that don't work. It always does a full string comparison. However,
this one is easy to fix:

$_IF F$LEFT(F$USER,5) .EQS. "[200," THEN SWITCH BASIC

would do it.

So, originally everyone but [1,2] did the SWITCH BASIC. Now, I hope that only members of [200,*] will do it. I may not be able to specify a partial string here. So probably what I have here is no one will get Basic at login. I need an F$PROJECT

function.

String manipulation. Simple... Just like BASIC.

I also found that my local [100,102]login.com is running, but the switch statement there was not having any effect. I put write 0 "Local login.com" and write 0 "end" at the beginning and end and both messages appear at login time.

I wonder if they might be running in the "wrong" order?

Also, why are there many underbars in the system login.com? What do they mean?

Sortof similar as using backslash in Unix. Avoid aliases.

$_IF

means you'll get the actual IF function in DCL, even if you have defined
your own IF...

Like in Unix:

\ls

would run the ls binary, even if you've defined an alias for ls to do
something else.

Johnny

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On Sunday, August 27, 2023 at 6:20:55 PM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2023-08-27 18:20, Ronald Hudson wrote:

In the [0,1] login.com:

It said:

$_if F$USER .NES. "[1,2]" THEN SWITCH BASIC

I changed it to:

$_IF F$USER .EQS. "[200," THEN SWITCH BASIC

I am not sure if this will actually work but for now, it lets me log in as me [100,102] and be in DCL.

Yeah, that don't work. It always does a full string comparison. However, this one is easy to fix:

$_IF F$LEFT(F$USER,5) .EQS. "[200," THEN SWITCH BASIC

would do it.

Thanks, I thought it might be something like that. I have implemented your proposal.

So, originally everyone but [1,2] did the SWITCH BASIC. Now, I hope that only members of [200,*] will do it. I may not be able to specify a partial string here. So probably what I have here is no one will get Basic at login. I need an F$PROJECT

function.

String manipulation. Simple... Just like BASIC.

I also found that my local [100,102]login.com is running, but the switch statement there was not having any effect. I put write 0 "Local login.com" and write 0 "end" at the beginning and end and both messages appear at login time.

I added a beginning and ending write to [0,1]Login.com - I will soon see how that runs in relation to the user's login.com.

Actually, it looks like the User's login script is called by the system login script after the line that checks for
group and runs the switch. The Project's login.com is called also, before the users.

I wonder if they might be running in the "wrong" order?

Also, why are there many underbars in the system login.com? What do they mean?

Sortof similar as using backslash in Unix. Avoid aliases.

$_IF

means you'll get the actual IF function in DCL, even if you have defined your own IF...

Like in Unix:

\ls

would run the ls binary, even if you've defined an alias for ls to do something else.

Johnny

Thanks Johnny! I think I have the DCL vs BASIC issue nailed down pretty well.

Next - The search for a full screen editor. ED is ok for small values of ok. I am not sure my telenet session will do well with (I guess it's called...) EDT/KEYPAD I don't have a keypad, and no 'gold key'

ron.

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On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 5:19:05 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2023-08-28 10:33, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Thanks Johnny! I think I have the DCL vs BASIC issue nailed down pretty well.

Cool. DCL is here very close to BASIC.

Really close, but I was referencing the original problem we solved - that 'all' my users were getting
BASIC, but I wanted them to be in DCL. Now this seems to be fixed.

Next - The search for a full-screen editor. ED is ok for small values of ok. I am not sure my telenet session will do well with (I guess it's called...) EDT/KEYPAD I don't have a keypad, and no 'gold key'

I guess you don't want to use TECO... ;-)

I have used TECO before, I don't remember - will it show the region around the edit point so one can see the code? (escape escape)

If you are ok with something Emacs-like, you could try to build NEMA. I wrote it for RSX, but it also works in VMS and various Unixes. If you
have PDP-11 C, it might be pretty easy to also get running on RSTS/E.

I don't have a C compiler, pretty much DCL and BASIC are the only languages I have. I think I have MACRO too but I really don't know enough to make use of an assembler. What is NEMA like?

Let me know if you need any pointers here.

Johnny

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On 2023-08-28 10:33, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Thanks Johnny! I think I have the DCL vs BASIC issue nailed down pretty well.

Cool. DCL is here very close to BASIC.

Next - The search for a full screen editor. ED is ok for small values of ok. I am not sure my telenet session will do well with (I guess it's called...) EDT/KEYPAD I don't have a keypad, and no 'gold key'

I guess you don't want to use TECO... ;-)
If you are ok with something Emacs-like, you could try to build NEMA. I
wrote it for RSX, but it also works in VMS and various Unixes. If you
have PDP-11 C, it might be pretty easy to also get running on RSTS/E.

Let me know if you need any pointers here.

Johnny

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On 2023-08-28 15:05, Ronald Hudson wrote:

On Monday, August 28, 2023 at 5:19:05 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2023-08-28 10:33, Ronald Hudson wrote:

Thanks Johnny! I think I have the DCL vs BASIC issue nailed down pretty well.

Cool. DCL is here very close to BASIC.

Really close, but I was referencing the original problem we solved - that 'all' my users were getting
BASIC, but I wanted them to be in DCL. Now this seems to be fixed.

Ah. Well. Good.

Next - The search for a full-screen editor. ED is ok for small values of ok. I am not sure my telenet session will do well with (I guess it's called...) EDT/KEYPAD I don't have a keypad, and no 'gold key'

I guess you don't want to use TECO... ;-)

I have used TECO before, I don't remember - will it show the region around the edit point so one can see the code? (escape escape)

TECO don't update the screen automatically with the latest content, if
that is what you are asking for. You can of course request it to show
the content at any time.

Hmm. With that said, there is also some macro packages usually included
with TECO, that gives you an interactive, visual editor. VTEDIT I think
it's called. Check around maybe?

If you are ok with something Emacs-like, you could try to build NEMA. I
wrote it for RSX, but it also works in VMS and various Unixes. If you
have PDP-11 C, it might be pretty easy to also get running on RSTS/E.

I don't have a C compiler, pretty much DCL and BASIC are the only languages I have. I think I have MACRO too but I really don't know enough to make use of an assembler. What is NEMA like?

There definitely is PDP-11 C for RSTS/E. So you could download and
install. But if you aren't too comfortable with programming in C then
this might be a bit much...
NEMA is very close to EMACS. If you haven't used EMACS then I don't know
what to say. What editors do you know?

Johnny

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On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 1:41:01 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Good Morning Johnny.

Hmm. With that said, there is also some macro packages usually included
with TECO, that gives you an interactive, visual editor. VTEDIT I think
it's called. Check around maybe?

If you are ok with something Emacs-like, you could try to build NEMA. I >> wrote it for RSX, but it also works in VMS and various Unixes. If you
have PDP-11 C, it might be pretty easy to also get running on RSTS/E.

I don't have a C compiler, pretty much DCL and BASIC are the only languages I have. I think I have MACRO too but I really don't know enough to make use of an assembler. What is NEMA like?

There definitely is PDP-11 C for RSTS/E. So you could download and
install. But if you aren't too comfortable with programming in C then
this might be a bit much...

I use C pretty well in Linux. The hurdle here is that I don't know how to install new software on my RSTS/SIMH machine, and I don't know where all the available software lives.

NEMA is very close to EMACS. If you haven't used EMACS then I don't know what to say. What editors do you know?

I am a weird one, I use both Emacs and VI in Linux (as well as Kate when I am working from the file manager).
I have just recently found out about EDIT/EDT with the CHANGE command which gives a reasonable visual editor though.

Johnny

Ron.

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On 2023-08-29 14:09, Ronald Hudson wrote:

On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 1:41:01 AM UTC-7, Johnny Billquist wrote:

Good Morning Johnny.

Hmm. With that said, there is also some macro packages usually included
with TECO, that gives you an interactive, visual editor. VTEDIT I think
it's called. Check around maybe?

If you are ok with something Emacs-like, you could try to build NEMA. I >>>> wrote it for RSX, but it also works in VMS and various Unixes. If you
have PDP-11 C, it might be pretty easy to also get running on RSTS/E.

I don't have a C compiler, pretty much DCL and BASIC are the only languages I have. I think I have MACRO too but I really don't know enough to make use of an assembler. What is NEMA like?

There definitely is PDP-11 C for RSTS/E. So you could download and
install. But if you aren't too comfortable with programming in C then
this might be a bit much...

I use C pretty well in Linux. The hurdle here is that I don't know how to install new software on my RSTS/SIMH machine, and I don't know where all the available software lives.

Ok.

Well. The installation manual can be found here: http://mim.stupi.net/manuals/LAYERED/pdp11c2.pdf

The distribution tape can be found here: https://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/rsts/

NEMA is very close to EMACS. If you haven't used EMACS then I don't know
what to say. What editors do you know?

I am a weird one, I use both Emacs and VI in Linux (as well as Kate when I am working from the file manager).
I have just recently found out about EDIT/EDT with the CHANGE command which gives a reasonable visual editor though.

Yes. EDT is a fairly competent screen editor. But it does require that
you have a keyboard with a numeric keypad, and can things to behave like
a VT100.

If you know Emacs, then NEMA should be very easy.

Johnny

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Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:

Next - The search for a full screen editor.
...

I guess you don't want to use TECO... ;-)

VTEDIT is quite a decent macro package for TECO, delivering a full screen editing experience. I used it on RSTS/E, but I'm pretty sure it went to most places TECO ran. (Probably not the PDP-8, though.)

Andy Valencia
Home page: https://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: https://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

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On 2023-08-30 15:55, Andy Valencia wrote:

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:

Next - The search for a full screen editor.
...

I guess you don't want to use TECO... ;-)

VTEDIT is quite a decent macro package for TECO, delivering a full screen editing experience. I used it on RSTS/E, but I'm pretty sure it went to most places TECO ran. (Probably not the PDP-8, though.)

I think it works fine on TECO-8 as well. But I'd have to check some...
(I wrote a small emacs-clone for TECO-8 once...)

Johnny

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