I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
Am 12.04.23 um 01:14 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:18:23 +0200, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
What file exactly did you delete?
Haven't used KDE for more than two decades. But Gnome and others have an
option what icons to show on the desktop. Suppose KDE too.
Couldn't find it so far. But it is part of the File Explorer/File System.
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 16:18:23 +0200, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
What file exactly did you delete?
Haven't used KDE for more than two decades. But Gnome and others have an option what icons to show on the desktop. Suppose KDE too.
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
Am 11.04.23 um 16:18 schrieb db:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
The file manager of Kubuntu 22.04 is Dolphin and out of the box there
are no folders or more exactly links to folders on the desktop on Kubuntu.
A quick test showed it is not possible to link the waste paper basket to
the desktop by the context menu. Even in the settings I could not find
the settings to bring the trash can to the desktop.
But what works: Open Dolphin and draw the trash can to the desktop.
Works perfectly. It creates a fully functional Waste Paper Basket.
HTH, Joerg
On 12.04.2023 08.26, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 11.04.23 um 16:18 schrieb db:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
The file manager of Kubuntu 22.04 is Dolphin and out of the box there
are no folders or more exactly links to folders on the desktop on Kubuntu. >>
A quick test showed it is not possible to link the waste paper basket to
the desktop by the context menu. Even in the settings I could not find
the settings to bring the trash can to the desktop.
But what works: Open Dolphin and draw the trash can to the desktop.
Works perfectly. It creates a fully functional Waste Paper Basket.
I activated Dolphin and get this:
"The file or folder /home/db/Desktop/Home does not exist"
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 14:20:29 +0200, db wrote:
On 12.04.2023 08.26, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 11.04.23 um 16:18 schrieb db:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
The file manager of Kubuntu 22.04 is Dolphin and out of the box there
are no folders or more exactly links to folders on the desktop on Kubuntu. >>>
A quick test showed it is not possible to link the waste paper basket to >>> the desktop by the context menu. Even in the settings I could not find
the settings to bring the trash can to the desktop.
But what works: Open Dolphin and draw the trash can to the desktop.
Works perfectly. It creates a fully functional Waste Paper Basket.
I activated Dolphin and get this:
"The file or folder /home/db/Desktop/Home does not exist"
Maybe this?
Create a new user and use those results to "regenerate" the trashcan.
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them alone. Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
But what do you find in:
~/.local/share/Trash
On 13/04/2023 03:40, stepore wrote:
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them alone.
Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
But what do you find in:
~/.local/share/Trash
I agree. I got sick of finding .Trash-1000 being created in the root of
every partition.
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
Am 13.04.23 um 13:56 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
On 13/04/2023 03:40, stepore wrote:
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them alone. >>> Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
But what do you find in:
~/.local/share/Trash
I agree. I got sick of finding .Trash-1000 being created in the root of
every partition.
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
Nonsense.
Am 13.04.23 um 13:56 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
On 13/04/2023 03:40, stepore wrote:
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them alone. >>> Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
But what do you find in:
~/.local/share/Trash
I agree. I got sick of finding .Trash-1000 being created in the root of
every partition.
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
Nonsense.
On 13/04/2023 16:53, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 13.04.23 um 13:56 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:Well it is,
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
Nonsense.
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
On 13/04/2023 16:53, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 13.04.23 um 13:56 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
I agree. I got sick of finding .Trash-1000 being created in the root of
every partition.
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
Nonsense.Well it is,
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/04/2023 16:53, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 13.04.23 um 13:56 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
I agree. I got sick of finding .Trash-1000 being created in the root of >>>> every partition.
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
OS9 [of MAC; there exists a non-GUI OS called OS-9 from 1979 too] was 1999-ish, no? Because at least Windows 95 had a trash can MS cannot have copied the idea.
Nonsense.Well it is,
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
Amiga OS 1.0 (1985)?
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 13/04/2023 16:53, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 13.04.23 um 13:56 schrieb The Natural Philosopher:
I agree. I got sick of finding .Trash-1000 being created in the root of >>>> every partition.
Its an artefact of many file managers that clicking the delete button
moves them (higlighted files) to the 'trash'.
I think it goes back to MAC/OS9, and got copied by micro$oft. And so
people decided that linux noobs needed it .
OS9 [of MAC; there exists a non-GUI OS called OS-9 from 1979 too] was 1999-ish, no? Because at least Windows 95 had a trash can MS cannot have copied the idea.
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
OS9 [of MAC; there exists a non-GUI OS called OS-9 from 1979 too]
was
1999-ish, no? Because at least Windows 95 had a trash can MS cannot have
copied the idea.
Oh ... "OS-9", the '9' for M6809, is still sold for
embedded systems. It is a RTOS and somewhat Unix-ish,
except a LOT more compact/fast/efficient. It has
always been multi-user/multi-tasking. Originally
contracted by Motorola, but it spread from there.
I fooled with it a bit back in the day on an RS Color
Computer and it was certainly different from all the
other PC stuff out there.
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well it is,Amiga OS 1.0 (1985)?
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
It was also in a C-64 "GEOS" gui desktop in '85 :
http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gabout.gif
bottom-right corner.
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versa
Because at least Windows 95 had a trash can MS cannot have
copied the idea.
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 19:40:55 -0700, stepore wrote:
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
Already thought on my Windows 95 installation why it is there. Also
tried to move "My Computer" into the trashcan. But wasn't allowed. :-D
Hmm, thinking further back, my first GUI desktop, Workbench on the Amiga, also had a trashcan in 1985. Never used it though.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
Exactly.
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them alone. Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
But what do you find in:
~/.local/share/Trash
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:15:20 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
OS9 [of MAC; there exists a non-GUI OS called OS-9 from 1979 too]
was
1999-ish, no? Because at least Windows 95 had a trash can MS cannot have >>> copied the idea.
Oh ... "OS-9", the '9' for M6809, is still sold for
embedded systems. It is a RTOS and somewhat Unix-ish,
except a LOT more compact/fast/efficient. It has
always been multi-user/multi-tasking. Originally
contracted by Motorola, but it spread from there.
Yes, that. Was probably the first multitasking OS (in 1979) seeing a wide spread among micro computers ("home computers").
I ran it in an emulator simulating the TRS CoCo to try it out.
Eventually wrote a small article on <https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/2018/02/os-9-forgotten-operating-system.html>,
which also has a video I made running it in an emulator to show its multitasking.
[...]
I fooled with it a bit back in the day on an RS Color
Computer and it was certainly different from all the
other PC stuff out there.
It was certainly in garish green. :-D
Everyone seems to forget Xerox PARC and the work done there but
1981 they had a Trashcan on the Xerox Star. The computer box and
display sat on top of a ventilated metal cabinet that housed the
Disk. Found it by searching on illustrations of Xerox display as at: <https://aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/xerox.big.png>
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 23:15:20 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
OS9 [of MAC; there exists a non-GUI OS called OS-9 from 1979 too]
was
1999-ish, no? Because at least Windows 95 had a trash can MS cannot have >>> copied the idea.
Oh ... "OS-9", the '9' for M6809, is still sold for
embedded systems. It is a RTOS and somewhat Unix-ish,
except a LOT more compact/fast/efficient. It has
always been multi-user/multi-tasking. Originally
contracted by Motorola, but it spread from there.
Yes, that. Was probably the first multitasking OS (in 1979) seeing a wide spread among micro computers ("home computers").
I ran it in an emulator simulating the TRS CoCo to try it out.
Eventually wrote a small article on <https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/2018/02/os-9-forgotten-operating-system.html>,
which also has a video I made running it in an emulator to show its multitasking.
[...]
I fooled with it a bit back in the day on an RS Color
Computer and it was certainly different from all the
other PC stuff out there.
It was certainly in garish green. :-D
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:45:41 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well it is,Amiga OS 1.0 (1985)?
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
It was also in a C-64 "GEOS" gui desktop in '85 :
http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gabout.gif
bottom-right corner.
Wow, 1985? Wikipedia lists 1986.
| GEOS (Graphic Environment Operating System) is a discontinued
| operating system from Berkeley Softworks (later
| GeoWorks). Originally designed for the Commodore 64 with its version
| being released in 1986, enhanced versions of GEOS later became
| available in 1987 for the Commodore 128 and in 1988 for the Apple II
| series of computers.
Hear hear, Apple! :-D
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versa
Looks more like a Mac OS rip off.
Reason was I suppose to give the aging Commodore 64 new life. GUIs
finally showed up and the way into the future.
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:45:41 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well it is,Amiga OS 1.0 (1985)?
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
It was also in a C-64 "GEOS" gui desktop in '85 :
http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gabout.gif
bottom-right corner.
Wow, 1985? Wikipedia lists 1986.
| GEOS (Graphic Environment Operating System) is a discontinued
| operating system from Berkeley Softworks (later
| GeoWorks). Originally designed for the Commodore 64 with its version
| being released in 1986, enhanced versions of GEOS later became
| available in 1987 for the Commodore 128 and in 1988 for the Apple II
| series of computers.
Hear hear, Apple! :-D
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versa
Looks more like a Mac OS rip off.
Reason was I suppose to give the aging Commodore 64 new life. GUIs
finally showed up and the way into the future.
Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
Everyone seems to forget Xerox PARC and the work done there but
1981 they had a Trashcan on the Xerox Star. The computer box and
display sat on top of a ventilated metal cabinet that housed the
Disk. Found it by searching on illustrations of Xerox display as at:
<https://aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/xerox.big.png>
PARC was most likely the earliest use of a 'trashcan' -- and as the
Apple Lisa was created as a 'clone' of what Jobs saw during his tour of
PARC, the Lisa/Mac inherited its trashcan from the PARC.
On 4/14/23 11:46 AM, Rich wrote:
Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
Everyone seems to forget Xerox PARC and the work done there but
1981 they had a Trashcan on the Xerox Star. The computer box and
display sat on top of a ventilated metal cabinet that housed the
Disk. Found it by searching on illustrations of Xerox display as
at:
<https://aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/xerox.big.png>
PARC was most likely the earliest use of a 'trashcan' -- and as the
Apple Lisa was created as a 'clone' of what Jobs saw during his tour
of PARC, the Lisa/Mac inherited its trashcan from the PARC.
Xerox was SERIOUSLY ripped-off. I wonder why it never
did much about it ?
OTOH Xerox/PARC never really spawned a COMMERCIAL product based on
their work. Could have, woulda blown everybody away, but it
didn't. Just sat around and let Jobs steal it.
On 4/14/23 12:44 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:45:41 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well it is,Amiga OS 1.0 (1985)?
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
It was also in a C-64 "GEOS" gui desktop in '85 :
http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gabout.gif
bottom-right corner.
Wow, 1985? Wikipedia lists 1986.
| GEOS (Graphic Environment Operating System) is a discontinued
| operating system from Berkeley Softworks (later
| GeoWorks). Originally designed for the Commodore 64 with its version >> | being released in 1986, enhanced versions of GEOS later became
| available in 1987 for the Commodore 128 and in 1988 for the Apple II >> | series of computers.
Hear hear, Apple! :-D
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versa
Looks more like a Mac OS rip off.
Reason was I suppose to give the aging Commodore 64 new life. GUIs
finally showed up and the way into the future.
The C-64 was already kinda inadequate by '85/'86 ... the C-128
really was better - twice the ram, faster cpu, 80 columns, even
a Z-80 coprocessor. But, by then, everybody was shifting off to
Apple and IBM. Amiga was good, but too late for Commodore and
too odd to attract as many developers as the other two.
Sometimes ideas crop up at the same time. However
in the trashcan case I think the various developers
were kinda talking to each other (Computer magazine
features often brought in a number of diverse players
for 'discussions' (likely continued at a nearby bar
afterwards). Everybody stole ideas from each other too.
Hey, the internet was invented in a bar - on the back
of a cocktail napkin :-)
You must use the trash, when you wipe files, and it empties itself automatically when it gets too full. I use it, when I'm in GUI,
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
On 4/14/23 02:52, db wrote:
You must use the trash, when you wipe files, and it empties itself
automatically when it gets too full. I use it, when I'm in GUI,
I wasn't playing. I have never once used it.
On 4/14/23 02:52, db wrote:
You must use the trash, when you wipe files, and it empties itself
automatically when it gets too full. I use it, when I'm in GUI,
I wasn't playing. I have never once used it.
On 4/14/23 18:22, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/14/23 12:44 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:45:41 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/13/23 5:56 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 17:27:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well it is,Amiga OS 1.0 (1985)?
I was just interested in where the 'trash bin' first appeared
It was also in a C-64 "GEOS" gui desktop in '85 :
http://toastytech.com/guis/c64gabout.gif
bottom-right corner.
Wow, 1985? Wikipedia lists 1986.
| GEOS (Graphic Environment Operating System) is a discontinued
| operating system from Berkeley Softworks (later
| GeoWorks). Originally designed for the Commodore 64 with its
version
| being released in 1986, enhanced versions of GEOS later became
| available in 1987 for the Commodore 128 and in 1988 for the
Apple II
| series of computers.
Hear hear, Apple! :-D
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versa
Looks more like a Mac OS rip off.
Reason was I suppose to give the aging Commodore 64 new life. GUIs
finally showed up and the way into the future.
The C-64 was already kinda inadequate by '85/'86 ... the C-128
really was better - twice the ram, faster cpu, 80 columns, even
a Z-80 coprocessor. But, by then, everybody was shifting off to
Apple and IBM. Amiga was good, but too late for Commodore and
too odd to attract as many developers as the other two.
Sometimes ideas crop up at the same time. However
in the trashcan case I think the various developers
were kinda talking to each other (Computer magazine
features often brought in a number of diverse players
for 'discussions' (likely continued at a nearby bar
afterwards). Everybody stole ideas from each other too.
Hey, the internet was invented in a bar - on the back
of a cocktail napkin :-)
I had a C=64 and learned to use formatting commands. I tried to
do some database Programming but one keystroke I hit the wrong key and
lost all my work. It was exhausting.
I wanted a more powerful machine and got a C=128 and even got memory expansion for it. The Z-80 was ok but running CP/M i maanged
to learn a bit more about Utility programs and about Dungeon Crawls
which took up far too much time. It suffered from the need to access
a floppy disk. Now I thought I would try GEOS and it was incredible
disk bound. It had been designed for a portable 6502 based computer intended for people traveling by air. Well that fell by the wayside
and it was adapted for some popular 8 bit machines. I used
the memory expansion for a disk and it was still just a problem to
run and to get anything done. For my work I used either the C=64
mode to run accounting software but found the 128 no better than
the C=64 for writing using Batteries Included's Paperclip.
bliss- coming to you live from the 1980s
26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
On 4/14/23 11:46 AM, Rich wrote:
Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
Everyone seems to forget Xerox PARC and the work done there but
1981 they had a Trashcan on the Xerox Star. The computer box and
display sat on top of a ventilated metal cabinet that housed the
Disk. Found it by searching on illustrations of Xerox display as
at:
<https://aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/xerox.big.png>
PARC was most likely the earliest use of a 'trashcan' -- and as the
Apple Lisa was created as a 'clone' of what Jobs saw during his tour
of PARC, the Lisa/Mac inherited its trashcan from the PARC.
Xerox was SERIOUSLY ripped-off. I wonder why it never
did much about it ?
Xerox management of the time was all "copiers". They likely never
recognized the earnings potential they had in the Star until much too
late to do much of anything about it.
OTOH Xerox/PARC never really spawned a COMMERCIAL product based on
their work. Could have, woulda blown everybody away, but it
didn't. Just sat around and let Jobs steal it.
See about about mgmt. being 'copier' focused. Likely could not fathom
the end results of what their researchers had developed (unless it
involved selling more copiers or copier contracts.
On 14/04/2023 23:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:I think the delete key moves to trash, but I have learnt not to do that.
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
In MATE I edit the xdg files to get rid of all its 'You want these so it looks like Windows' shit
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Well, if you are in console mode. Since a huge amount of what I do is
reading watching or composing text and graphics, I am not
On 4/15/23 5:06 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2023 23:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:I think the delete key moves to trash, but I have learnt not to do that.
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
In MATE I edit the xdg files to get rid of all its 'You want these so it
looks like Windows' shit
I mostly use LXDE ... and one of the first moves is to
On 4/14/23 12:44 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versaLooks more like a Mac OS rip off.
Reason was I suppose to give the aging Commodore 64 new life. GUIs
finally showed up and the way into the future.
The C-64 was already kinda inadequate by '85/'86 ... the C-128
really was better - twice the ram, faster cpu, 80 columns, even
a Z-80 coprocessor. But, by then, everybody was shifting off to
Apple and IBM. Amiga was good, but too late for Commodore and
too odd to attract as many developers as the other two.
On 4/14/23 12:49 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
Yes, that. Was probably the first multitasking OS (in 1979) seeing a
wide
spread among micro computers ("home computers").
I ran it in an emulator simulating the TRS CoCo to try it out.
Eventually wrote a small article on
<https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/2018/02/os-9-forgotten-operating-system.html>,
which also has a video I made running it in an emulator to show its
multitasking.
I had an actual CoCo to run it on.
The emulator MAY be faster.
I think the delete key moves to trash, but I have learnt not to do that.
In MATE I edit the xdg files to get rid of all its 'You want these so
it looks like Windows' shit
On 2023-04-15, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:06 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2023 23:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:I think the delete key moves to trash, but I have learnt not to do that. >>> In MATE I edit the xdg files to get rid of all its 'You want these so it >>> looks like Windows' shit
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie >>>>> to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
I mostly use LXDE ... and one of the first moves is to
not use a file manager!
Go on live wild at the command line :-)
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:33:57 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/14/23 12:49 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
Yes, that. Was probably the first multitasking OS (in 1979) seeing a
wide
spread among micro computers ("home computers").
I ran it in an emulator simulating the TRS CoCo to try it out.
Eventually wrote a small article on
<https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/2018/02/os-9-forgotten-operating-system.html>,
which also has a video I made running it in an emulator to show its
multitasking.
I had an actual CoCo to run it on.
The emulator MAY be faster.
I never had a CoCo. Only C64 and Amiga, then PC, PC, PC and PC.
Thanks to emulators I can catch up with iconic computers I missed in the past, without actually owning them.
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 21:22:09 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/14/23 12:44 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
Likely GEOS influenced Amiga development or vice-versaLooks more like a Mac OS rip off.
Reason was I suppose to give the aging Commodore 64 new life. GUIs
finally showed up and the way into the future.
The C-64 was already kinda inadequate by '85/'86 ... the C-128
really was better - twice the ram, faster cpu, 80 columns, even
a Z-80 coprocessor. But, by then, everybody was shifting off to
Apple and IBM. Amiga was good, but too late for Commodore and
too odd to attract as many developers as the other two.
I think the Amiga saved Commodore from an earlier bankruptcy (around 1987
or 1988). If the Amiga hadn't come out they'd introduced the Commodore 65, which was far inferior to the Amiga.
On 4/15/23 5:38 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I think the Amiga saved Commodore from an earlier bankruptcy (around
1987
or 1988). If the Amiga hadn't come out they'd introduced the Commodore 65, >> which was far inferior to the Amiga.
At that juncture, the 65 would have been a
total waste of money. 16+ bits was the clear
path.
The 1000 I had was SO buggy, SO many "Guru Meditations",
that I dumped it - and Commodore - and went entirely to PCs.
On 4/15/23 2:54 PM, Jim Jackson wrote:
On 2023-04-15, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:06 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2023 23:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:I think the delete key moves to trash, but I have learnt not to do that. >>>> In MATE I edit the xdg files to get rid of all its 'You want these so it >>>> looks like Windows' shit
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie >>>>>> to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
I mostly use LXDE ... and one of the first moves is to
not use a file manager!
Go on live wild at the command line :-)
I use that VERY often ... usually have two or
three terminals open.
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the
entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run"
- I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run".
- I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the
entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run" >> - I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run". >> - I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
Use tab completion...
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
Pointless argument. People have different preferences.
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
On 2023-04-15 00:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run"
- I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run".
- I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
On 16/04/2023 12:30, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-15 00:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the
entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run" >> - I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run". >> - I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
Yup, I'm with you Carlos!
Of course autocomplete speeds up shell file finding, but if you are
used to a GUI its still a bit faster.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 10:44:38 -0400, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 16/04/2023 12:30, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-15 00:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie >>>>> to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the >>> entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under
"/run"
- I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under
"/run".
- I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
Yup, I'm with you Carlos!
Of course autocomplete speeds up shell file finding, but if you are
used to a GUI its still a bit faster.
In a case like that, I'd use "tree -ifa /run|grep 'avi$'", which will
show the
file name with any spaces or other reserved characters escaped by a backslash,
and then copy/paste the Path/file name into an rm command.
I'm a touch typist, but with long names copy/paste is safer.
On 2023-04-15 00:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the
entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run"
- I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run".
- I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 14:52:31 -0400, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-16 17:36, David W. Hodgins wrote:
In a case like that, I'd use "tree -ifa /run|grep 'avi$'", which will
show the
file name with any spaces or other reserved characters escaped by a
backslash,
and then copy/paste the Path/file name into an rm command.
I'm a touch typist, but with long names copy/paste is safer.
Nah. If forced to do it on the CLI, I would fire up 'mc' instead. Text
mode file browser. :-)
Actually, that's what I use to delete the trash can on the USB stick
when I suspect there is one taking space.
I do use mc, but when I'm not sure which subdirectory the file is in or it's full name, I find the tree/grep commands to be faster for finding things.
On 2023-04-16 17:36, David W. Hodgins wrote:
In a case like that, I'd use "tree -ifa /run|grep 'avi$'", which will
show the
file name with any spaces or other reserved characters escaped by a
backslash,
and then copy/paste the Path/file name into an rm command.
I'm a touch typist, but with long names copy/paste is safer.
Nah. If forced to do it on the CLI, I would fire up 'mc' instead. Text
mode file browser. :-)
Actually, that's what I use to delete the trash can on the USB stick
when I suspect there is one taking space.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 14:52:31 -0400, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-16 17:36, David W. Hodgins wrote:
In a case like that, I'd use "tree -ifa /run|grep 'avi$'", which will
show the
file name with any spaces or other reserved characters escaped by a
backslash,
and then copy/paste the Path/file name into an rm command.
I'm a touch typist, but with long names copy/paste is safer.
Nah. If forced to do it on the CLI, I would fire up 'mc' instead. Text
mode file browser. :-)
Actually, that's what I use to delete the trash can on the USB stick
when I suspect there is one taking space.
I do use mc, but when I'm not sure which subdirectory the file is in or
it's
full name, I find the tree/grep commands to be faster for finding things.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:30:32 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-15 00:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the
entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run" >> - I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run". >> - I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
I recently ran into a problem while trying to browse the contents of a directory on a USB hard drive. While I could navigate to the hard drive
mount and list the directory using commandline tools, my desktop GUI
"file manager" app swore that the directory could not be read.
It turns out that the GUI "file manager" uses absolute paths to access everything, and the length of the absolute path (in characters) to
the directory in question exceeded some built-in limit.
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path
to the directory in question.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:[snip]
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
Finding stuff?
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:12:28 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:38 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I think the Amiga saved Commodore from an earlier bankruptcy (around
1987
or 1988). If the Amiga hadn't come out they'd introduced the Commodore 65, >>> which was far inferior to the Amiga.
At that juncture, the 65 would have been a
total waste of money. 16+ bits was the clear
path.
Apparently Commodore had no "pure" 16 bit computer in development. The Commodore 65 has a CSG 65CE02 CPU, an 8/16 bit processor. Something completely different from the M68000, which was 16/32 bit.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_4510>
I ran it in an emulator, also got a handful of programs. I was not impressed.
The 1000 I had was SO buggy, SO many "Guru Meditations",
that I dumped it - and Commodore - and went entirely to PCs.
Had my first contact fall 1986 and thought it was OK. A friend had it,
and like the C64 before, used it for gaming only.
The C64 already crashed a lot, so if the Amiga would crash (Guru
Meditation) it felt normal. :-D
On 4/16/23 1:43 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
Apparently Commodore had no "pure" 16 bit computer in
development. The
Commodore 65 has a CSG 65CE02 CPU, an 8/16 bit processor. Something
completely different from the M68000, which was 16/32 bit.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_4510>
I ran it in an emulator, also got a handful of programs. I was not
impressed.
Emulators can deceive.
On 4/16/23 1:43 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:12:28 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:38 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I think the Amiga saved Commodore from an earlier bankruptcy (around
1987
or 1988). If the Amiga hadn't come out they'd introduced the
Commodore 65,
which was far inferior to the Amiga.
At that juncture, the 65 would have been a
total waste of money. 16+ bits was the clear
path.
Apparently Commodore had no "pure" 16 bit computer in development. The
Commodore 65 has a CSG 65CE02 CPU, an 8/16 bit processor. Something
completely different from the M68000, which was 16/32 bit.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_4510>
I ran it in an emulator, also got a handful of programs. I was not
impressed.
Emulators can deceive.
Looking up the spex, it really wasn't a bad chip for
the era - a significant step above the 65c02. Likely
Commodore was worried about "price point" and this
would have been cheaper than competitors. Thing is,
by then, it really was too wimpy to use as a cpu in
anything serious - the 680xx,i286/386 performed much
better.
The 1000 I had was SO buggy, SO many "Guru Meditations",
that I dumped it - and Commodore - and went entirely to PCs.
Had my first contact fall 1986 and thought it was OK. A friend had it,
and like the C64 before, used it for gaming only.
The C64 already crashed a lot, so if the Amiga would crash (Guru
Meditation) it felt normal. :-D
I never felt the C64 was "crashy" - it was bad 3rd-party
software. With the A-1000 it seemed the SYSTEM routines
were buggy. In any case, I was trying to do actual stuff
rather than play games so I just didn't have the time or
will to fight with it. Later Amiga's were reportedly much
better, but after blowing so much on a 'bad' version I was
never inclined to buy one. Once burnt. Prob for the best -
everything DID go Apple/IBM around that time.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 23:49:05 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:[snip]
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Agreed. And for some jobs, commandline is easier and faster.
There's room for both the GUI and commandline; why not leave it
at that?
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path
to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path
to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
+1; a lot faster
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 23:49:05 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:[snip]
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Agreed. And for some jobs, commandline is easier and faster.
There's room for both the GUI and commandline; why not leave it
at that?
On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 13:30:32 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-15 00:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the
trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie
to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever".
But I rarely use the manager. rm is faster (and unforgiving ;-).
Ok.
- I punch an usb stick into the usb socket.
- I wait a few seconds, then click, inside the file browser, into the
entry for the new external stick.
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run" >> - I click on the movie to delete, then hit the delete key. It is a
long name with possibly spaces and other niceties.
Versus:
- The directory of the stick opens. It is a long dir hidden under "/run". >> - I right click into "open a terminal here".
- I type "rm long and twisty file: name.avi".
- it fails, of course, I forgot to escape spaces and colons. Correct
and try again.
- Oops, deleted the wrong file.
How is that any easier and faster?
I recently ran into a problem while trying to browse the contents of a directory on a USB hard drive. While I could navigate to the hard drive
mount and list the directory using commandline tools, my desktop GUI
"file manager" app swore that the directory could not be read.
It turns out that the GUI "file manager" uses absolute paths to access everything, and the length of the absolute path (in characters) to
the directory in question exceeded some built-in limit.
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path
to the directory in question.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
On 4/16/23 15:49, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/16/23 1:43 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:12:28 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:38 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I think the Amiga saved Commodore from an earlier bankruptcy (around >>>>> 1987
or 1988). If the Amiga hadn't come out they'd introduced the
Commodore 65,
which was far inferior to the Amiga.
At that juncture, the 65 would have been a
total waste of money. 16+ bits was the clear
path.
Apparently Commodore had no "pure" 16 bit computer in development. The
Commodore 65 has a CSG 65CE02 CPU, an 8/16 bit processor. Something
completely different from the M68000, which was 16/32 bit.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_4510>
I ran it in an emulator, also got a handful of programs. I was not
impressed.
Emulators can deceive.
Looking up the spex, it really wasn't a bad chip for
the era - a significant step above the 65c02. Likely
Commodore was worried about "price point" and this
would have been cheaper than competitors. Thing is,
by then, it really was too wimpy to use as a cpu in
anything serious - the 680xx,i286/386 performed much
better.
The 1000 I had was SO buggy, SO many "Guru Meditations",
that I dumped it - and Commodore - and went entirely to PCs.
Had my first contact fall 1986 and thought it was OK. A friend had it,
and like the C64 before, used it for gaming only.
The C64 already crashed a lot, so if the Amiga would crash (Guru
Meditation) it felt normal. :-D
I never felt the C64 was "crashy" - it was bad 3rd-party
software. With the A-1000 it seemed the SYSTEM routines
were buggy. In any case, I was trying to do actual stuff
rather than play games so I just didn't have the time or
will to fight with it. Later Amiga's were reportedly much
better, but after blowing so much on a 'bad' version I was
never inclined to buy one. Once burnt. Prob for the best -
everything DID go Apple/IBM around that time.
my A1000 was second hand. It cost me about 100 USD. I got a keyboard and a keyboard adapter and a mouse as well. I enjoyed it very
much and as with the C+64 8 C=64/128 I used it mostly for writing and
book keeping. I am no great shakes with a Keyboard so I made lots of mistakes but I do not recall a problem with Crashing on the 8 bit
machines. On the Amiga even with 8 MB memory expansion there were lots
of problems because my favored mood of operation put too much strain
on the system as it had no effective memory management. I liked to
run at least one example of a Text Editor, a Word Processor, and a
Terminal software for visiting BBSes. I finally sprung loose the
cash for a 68060?50 KHz Accelerator and 32 MB of memory. It let me
do a little more quite a bit faster then I got AWeb and Miami and
then the crashes got more frequent. When a friend bought an extra
15 inch display Laptop with a 2.4 MHz processor and I added a gig or
so of memory I ran XP with an Amiga Emulator but not the best one.
A friend now lost to the ravages of time suggested I try Mandriva
and another in Norway sent me 6 CDs on DVD, I was able to make
the CDs needed to do an installation. I was about 68 yoa in 2006
when I did my first installation and began to use Linux.
God bless Gael Duval.
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
On 4/15/23 2:54 PM, Jim Jackson wrote:
On 2023-04-15, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:06 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/04/2023 23:26, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 11:58:13 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:I think the delete key moves to trash, but I have learnt not to do that. >>>>> In MATE I edit the xdg files to get rid of all its 'You want these so it >>>>> looks like Windows' shit
On 2023-04-13 23:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I hide the icon if the setup allows.
Hiding the icon is worse. When you delete things, they go to the >>>>>>> trashcan, which you may find later. Like why can't I copy this movie >>>>>>> to the USB stick if I just deleted another movie.
If one sees the trash can, one remembers.
In MATE's file manager it says "Move to trash" or "Delete forever". >>>>>>
I mostly use LXDE ... and one of the first moves is to
not use a file manager!
Go on live wild at the command line :-)
I use that VERY often ... usually have two or
three terminals open.
ONLY 2 or 3 ?
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators. Finding stuff? I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
Same here.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc' :-)
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path >>>>> to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
Otherwise I agree.
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path >>>> to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
On 2023-04-16, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
A GUI vs. CLI situation happened where I worked about 14 years
ago. I was a contingency/contract worker in an all-Windows
company. The tech lead over me was very strongly of the opinion
that, "The Microsoft way is ONLY way!"
On one occasion, we needed to incorporate an update of a library
of C++ source code (from elsewhere in the company) into the
project tree. However, each and every directory in the tree we
were importing had a file whose name either started with a dot or
had a particular suffix--something from the CMS the other group
used, and we needed to delete those files. The Microsoft-way
tech lead was deleting the offending files one at a time and was
getting very frustrated at how long it was taking--with several
dozen left to go.
In as non-boisterous a tone as I could muster,
I said I could delete all of them in 20 seconds if he would
like. After doing a few more one at a time, he told me to go
ahead. I had CYGWIN on the machine, so I did a find command to
list all the files by name. Then, I did
rm `find . -name ...`
That missed two of them, because one of the directories had a
space in its name. However, that was close enough to get the job
done without taking much more time. I considered that a victory
for the CLI.
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:24:42 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute >>>>>> path
to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
Otherwise I agree.
It's a matter of personal preference, usually a preference that's based on what you started with.
My first pc experience after years of working with an IBM mainframe was ROM basic, which I hated. Later dos, which I learned to manipulate with batch files well.
Windows was never impressive for me, especially on in the early days with 8088 and then 8086 with such limited ram.
When I started with linux, I started with asplinux running under windows, where I learned the basic shell commands. Then started using other versions of linux, for I learned bash fairly well.
Only later did I start using a gui in linux. Still with fairly slow
hardware,
I found it much faster to do things using the command line and that became
my personal preference.
I do know how to do things using the various desktop environments, but
for me
it's generally faster to use the command line for most things.
There are things where using a gui is better, so for those things I use it. It all depends on the task.
Regards, Dave Hodgins
On 4/16/23 9:20 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
Same here.
GUI stuff exists for a reason - and often that reason
is that CL approaches require too much precision and
twiddly params few can remember unless maybe they're
17 and gulping caffeine all day.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc' :-)
MC is just a 'fake GUI' ... same idea, older approach.
Often use it over SSH connections if the job gets kinda
complex.
On 4/16/23 7:39 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 4/16/23 15:49, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/16/23 1:43 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 21:12:28 -0400, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/15/23 5:38 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
I think the Amiga saved Commodore from an earlier bankruptcy (around >>>>>> 1987
or 1988). If the Amiga hadn't come out they'd introduced the
Commodore 65,
which was far inferior to the Amiga.
At that juncture, the 65 would have been a
total waste of money. 16+ bits was the clear
path.
Apparently Commodore had no "pure" 16 bit computer in development. The >>>> Commodore 65 has a CSG 65CE02 CPU, an 8/16 bit processor. Something
completely different from the M68000, which was 16/32 bit.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_4510>
I ran it in an emulator, also got a handful of programs. I was not
impressed.
Emulators can deceive.
Looking up the spex, it really wasn't a bad chip for
the era - a significant step above the 65c02. Likely
Commodore was worried about "price point" and this
would have been cheaper than competitors. Thing is,
by then, it really was too wimpy to use as a cpu in
anything serious - the 680xx,i286/386 performed much
better.
The 1000 I had was SO buggy, SO many "Guru Meditations",
that I dumped it - and Commodore - and went entirely to PCs.
Had my first contact fall 1986 and thought it was OK. A friend had it, >>>> and like the C64 before, used it for gaming only.
The C64 already crashed a lot, so if the Amiga would crash (Guru
Meditation) it felt normal. :-D
I never felt the C64 was "crashy" - it was bad 3rd-party
software. With the A-1000 it seemed the SYSTEM routines
were buggy. In any case, I was trying to do actual stuff
rather than play games so I just didn't have the time or
will to fight with it. Later Amiga's were reportedly much
better, but after blowing so much on a 'bad' version I was
never inclined to buy one. Once burnt. Prob for the best -
everything DID go Apple/IBM around that time.
my A1000 was second hand. It cost me about 100 USD. I got a
keyboard and a keyboard adapter and a mouse as well. I enjoyed it very
much and as with the C+64 8 C=64/128 I used it mostly for writing and
book keeping. I am no great shakes with a Keyboard so I made lots of
mistakes but I do not recall a problem with Crashing on the 8 bit
machines. On the Amiga even with 8 MB memory expansion there were lots
of problems because my favored mood of operation put too much strain
on the system as it had no effective memory management. I liked to
run at least one example of a Text Editor, a Word Processor, and a
Terminal software for visiting BBSes. I finally sprung loose the
cash for a 68060?50 KHz Accelerator and 32 MB of memory. It let me
do a little more quite a bit faster then I got AWeb and Miami and
then the crashes got more frequent. When a friend bought an extra
15 inch display Laptop with a 2.4 MHz processor and I added a gig or
so of memory I ran XP with an Amiga Emulator but not the best one.
A friend now lost to the ravages of time suggested I try Mandriva
and another in Norway sent me 6 CDs on DVD, I was able to make
the CDs needed to do an installation. I was about 68 yoa in 2006
when I did my first installation and began to use Linux.
God bless Gael Duval.
The Amigas did have graphics capabilities the rivals
were quick to emulate/steal. I know it remained popular
for video production studios for quite awhile because
of the ease of overlaying/blending vids. Most of this
was because of the hardware while the competitors did
it with software - not always as snappy.
It was an *interesting* computer in many ways - but
Commodore just didn't have enough punch to make it
a real competitor with Apple/IBM. Commodore became
associated with "toy computers" in the VIC/C64 era
and could not gain a "serious stuff" rep like the
competitors.
I'll not trash Commodore - their 'toys' educated a
whole generation affordably. 99% may have been used
just for games, but the other 1% learned programming,
peripherals and system stuff. The company I will
trash is TI ... they had a pretty good PC but RUINED
IT by being too hoggy with the software/cartridge
end (plus the 16-bit chip was BARELY USED).
The TMS9900 chip was interesting - hardware support
for multiuser/multitasking, memory-mapped register
sets (as fast as in-chip at the time). I know they
made a mini-computer based on it.
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute path >>>>> to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
Otherwise I agree.
On 2023-04-16, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
A GUI vs. CLI situation happened where I worked about 14 years
ago. I was a contingency/contract worker in an all-Windows
company. The tech lead over me was very strongly of the opinion
that, "The Microsoft way is ONLY way!"
On one occasion, we needed to incorporate an update of a library
of C++ source code (from elsewhere in the company) into the
project tree. However, each and every directory in the tree we
were importing had a file whose name either started with a dot or
had a particular suffix--something from the CMS the other group
used, and we needed to delete those files. The Microsoft-way
tech lead was deleting the offending files one at a time and was
getting very frustrated at how long it was taking--with several
dozen left to go.
In as non-boisterous a tone as I could muster,
I said I could delete all of them in 20 seconds if he would
like. After doing a few more one at a time, he told me to go
ahead. I had CYGWIN on the machine, so I did a find command to
list all the files by name. Then, I did
rm `find . -name ...`
That missed two of them, because one of the directories had a
space in its name. However, that was close enough to get the job
done without taking much more time. I considered that a victory
for the CLI.
On 4/17/23 11:33 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:24:42 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and
absolute path to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than >>>>>>> commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
Otherwise I agree.
It's a matter of personal preference, usually a preference that's
based on what you started with.
Sometimes it seems to be a "theological" issue. There
are "puritans" who will preach CL-ONLY/"DOWN Demon
GUIs !" and the heretical "Never Devil CLI !" sects.
I started way before GUIs - but they DO make a lot of
stuff - small & large - a LOT easier/faster/surer.
OTOH there is a lot of stuff which is just fine, even
offer superior twiddly little options, on the CL.
So, I use them in tandem, from each for each. MAYBE
I open something in nano, MAYBE in leafpad or Geany,
just depends at the moment. And searching for files
across entire disks ... gimme a gui app that has
checkboxes and boxes for search params and organizes
the output nicely ! NEVER liked the Linux CL search
utilities - need a gui wrapper.
Mix the right stuff and you can get it done far quicker,
far more accurately.
And yes I *do* put GUIs on servers - lxde/openbox/icewm
for the most part depending !!! (ha!ha!ha!ha! ;-)
On 4/16/23 9:20 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
Same here.
GUI stuff exists for a reason - and often that reason
is that CL approaches require too much precision and
twiddly params few can remember unless maybe they're
17 and gulping caffeine all day.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc' :-)
MC is just a 'fake GUI' ... same idea, older approach.
Often use it over SSH connections if the job gets kinda
complex.
On 2023-04-18 18:06, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/17/23 11:33 PM, David W. Hodgins wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 23:24:42 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and
absolute path to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than >>>>>>>> commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
Otherwise I agree.
It's a matter of personal preference, usually a preference that's
based on what you started with.
Sometimes it seems to be a "theological" issue. There
are "puritans" who will preach CL-ONLY/"DOWN Demon
GUIs !" and the heretical "Never Devil CLI !" sects.
Yeah. I know people that refused to switch to Linux because they could
not do everything on the GUI (admin jobs).
I started way before GUIs - but they DO make a lot of
stuff - small & large - a LOT easier/faster/surer.
OTOH there is a lot of stuff which is just fine, even
offer superior twiddly little options, on the CL.
So, I use them in tandem, from each for each. MAYBE
I open something in nano, MAYBE in leafpad or Geany,
just depends at the moment. And searching for files
across entire disks ... gimme a gui app that has
checkboxes and boxes for search params and organizes
the output nicely ! NEVER liked the Linux CL search
utilities - need a gui wrapper.
Mix the right stuff and you can get it done far quicker,
far more accurately.
And yes I *do* put GUIs on servers - lxde/openbox/icewm
for the most part depending !!! (ha!ha!ha!ha! ;-)
Me too :-)
If the server doesn't have graphics or is remote or is not mine, I
install / ask to install "mc".
On 2023-04-18 05:24, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and absolute >>>>>> path
to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than
commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
You are right.
Otherwise I agree.
On 4/17/23 19:24, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/16/23 9:20 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
Same here.
GUI stuff exists for a reason - and often that reason
is that CL approaches require too much precision and
twiddly params few can remember unless maybe they're
17 and gulping caffeine all day.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
Maybe because you can pick the faster multicore systems?
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc' :-)
MC is just a 'fake GUI' ... same idea, older approach.
Often use it over SSH connections if the job gets kinda
complex.
I use MC from time to time but since I can run Dolphin in root
mode I do not use it so often as I did when I ran Mandriva.
My KDE Plasma on a 4 core i7 at 2.6 GHz is as fast as an AmigaOS3.1 was on a 50 MHz 68060. But on Linux we have Memory
Management which is worth more.
bliss - if you start with a C=64 you appreciate a bit of speed.
On 18/04/2023 05:00, Robert Riches wrote:
On 2023-04-16, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:It really depends on how used you are and how fluent you are and what
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
A GUI vs. CLI situation happened where I worked about 14 years
ago. I was a contingency/contract worker in an all-Windows
company. The tech lead over me was very strongly of the opinion
that, "The Microsoft way is ONLY way!"
On one occasion, we needed to incorporate an update of a library
of C++ source code (from elsewhere in the company) into the
project tree. However, each and every directory in the tree we
were importing had a file whose name either started with a dot or
had a particular suffix--something from the CMS the other group
used, and we needed to delete those files. The Microsoft-way
tech lead was deleting the offending files one at a time and was
getting very frustrated at how long it was taking--with several
dozen left to go.
In as non-boisterous a tone as I could muster,
I said I could delete all of them in 20 seconds if he would
like. After doing a few more one at a time, he told me to go
ahead. I had CYGWIN on the machine, so I did a find command to
list all the files by name. Then, I did
rm `find . -name ...`
That missed two of them, because one of the directories had a
space in its name. However, that was close enough to get the job
done without taking much more time. I considered that a victory
for the CLI.
you happened to be in when you needed to do the job.
I use whatever is most convenient at the time.
Thanking Clapton that I don't have to interface via a Flexowriter...and paper tape
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
On 4/18/23 4:47 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-18 05:24, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and
absolute path
to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than >>>>>>> commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
You are right.
I think he wants "absolutes" - but they
don't exist in Linux software dev/maint.
For each thing, pick the "best" tool for
the moment. Plenty to choose from.
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for mainframes
and minis, productivity was massive, because there was nothing the users could do to break the system. And if they did, the software authors
fixed it.
The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost by a
factor of ten.
On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for
mainframes and minis, productivity was massive, because there was
nothing the users could do to break the system. And if they did, the
software authors fixed it.
Now that you mention it... yes, I have worked with a system like that.
The Lucent (previously AT&T) 5ESSS telephone switch. Terminals worked
over serial ports. But you could also type the commands instead of the
menu shortcuts, which were accessed by numbers IIRC (another life).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5ESS_Switching_System>
There are no photos of the terminals. Found only a (bad) video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYETwzUyCo
The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost by a
factor of ten.
On 4/18/23 12:06 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 4/17/23 19:24, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/16/23 9:20 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the
arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these
hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other
way, but I'm not.
Same here.
GUI stuff exists for a reason - and often that reason
is that CL approaches require too much precision and
twiddly params few can remember unless maybe they're
17 and gulping caffeine all day.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
Maybe because you can pick the faster multicore systems?
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after
towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc' :-) >>>
MC is just a 'fake GUI' ... same idea, older approach.
Often use it over SSH connections if the job gets kinda
complex.
I use MC from time to time but since I can run Dolphin in root
mode I do not use it so often as I did when I ran Mandriva.
Used to use dolphin way back, but it got weird. Then
KDE got Too Fat and I dumped it entirely (and forget
Gnome too !). I stick to LXDE/OpenBox/IceWM now. JUST
enough GUI.
MC is particularly useful over SSH connections. You can
do a lot more, a lot faster, a lot more accurately, using
MC as compared to dozens of pure CL variations. Sorry,
but I can't remember the zillion param variants for 50
CL utilities.
My KDE Plasma on a 4 core i7 at 2.6 GHz is as fast as an
AmigaOS3.1 was on a 50 MHz 68060. But on Linux we have Memory
Management which is worth more.
bliss - if you start with a C=64 you appreciate a bit of speed.
Hey, I started BEFORE C64's ! :-) The first box I *owned*
was a VIC-20 ... still kinda fond of those, but they were
not "fast".
There are things where using a gui is better, so for those things I use it. It all depends on the task.
The Amigas did have graphics capabilities the rivals
were quick to emulate/steal. I know it remained popular
for video production studios for quite awhile because
of the ease of overlaying/blending vids. Most of this
was because of the hardware while the competitors did
it with software - not always as snappy.
It was an *interesting* computer in many ways - but
Commodore just didn't have enough punch to make it
a real competitor with Apple/IBM. Commodore became
associated with "toy computers" in the VIC/C64 era
and could not gain a "serious stuff" rep like the
competitors.
On 19/04/2023 05:09, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/18/23 4:47 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:They don't exist, period, except in the minds of rather limited people
On 2023-04-18 05:24, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:38:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 08:49, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
Am 16.04.23 um 23:49 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
On 2023-04-16 21:38, Lew Pitcher wrote:+1; a lot faster
/BUT/, the commandline worked fine with both relative and
absolute path
to the directory in question.
Never happened to me.
Tell me again how GUI file managers are "easier and faster" than >>>>>>>> commandline tools?
For some jobs, they are easier and faster.
Not for all jobs.
You wrote *some*. :-)
You are right.
I think he wants "absolutes" - but they
don't exist in Linux software dev/maint.
whose one dimensional thinking runs on Boolean lines.
And whose heads explode when faced with statements like
A= NOT A
For each thing, pick the "best" tool forToo complicated,. I just wanna be told what is BEST.
the moment. Plenty to choose from.
Ok Dude. APPLE IS BEST
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for mainframes
and minis, productivity was massive, because there was nothing the users could do to break the system. And if they did, the software authors
fixed it.
The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost by a
factor of ten.
On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Back in the day I did quite a lot of work with the likes of SCO Unix,
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for
mainframes and minis, productivity was massive, because there was
nothing the users could do to break the system. And if they did, the
software authors fixed it.
Now that you mention it... yes, I have worked with a system like that.
The Lucent (previously AT&T) 5ESSS telephone switch. Terminals worked
over serial ports. But you could also type the commands instead of the
menu shortcuts, which were accessed by numbers IIRC (another life).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5ESS_Switching_System>
There are no photos of the terminals. Found only a (bad) video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYETwzUyCo
The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost by
a factor of ten.
and various 'minis' running sys V unix wired up to massive serial cards running up to 70 green screen serial terminals - usually Wyse 50s as
they were reliable and cheap.
Typically they would be running some office based apps and some kind of database.
The people who supplied the systems would have various menu screens to
access them.
In general one persons part time job was to to insert a tape once a day, replace paper in the printer and take a backup, and phone the support
team if anything else went wrong.
And it didn't. Mostly they ran and ran.
Nothing for UserFingerPoken.
On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, We Dont.
On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Back in the day I did quite a lot of work with the likes of SCO Unix,
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for
mainframes and minis, productivity was massive, because there was
nothing the users could do to break the system. And if they did,
the software authors fixed it.
Now that you mention it... yes, I have worked with a system like
that. The Lucent (previously AT&T) 5ESSS telephone switch. Terminals
worked over serial ports. But you could also type the commands
instead of the menu shortcuts, which were accessed by numbers IIRC
(another life).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5ESS_Switching_System>
There are no photos of the terminals. Found only a (bad) video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYETwzUyCo
The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost by
a factor of ten.
and various 'minis' running sys V unix wired up to massive serial
cards running up to 70 green screen serial terminals - usually Wyse
50s as they were reliable and cheap.
Typically they would be running some office based apps and some kind
of database.
The people who supplied the systems would have various menu screens to
access them.
In general one persons part time job was to to insert a tape once a
day, replace paper in the printer and take a backup, and phone the
support team if anything else went wrong.
And it didn't. Mostly they ran and ran.
Nothing for UserFingerPoken.
But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, note
that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
We keep wanting systems to Do More,
and layers of complexity. Evils can lurk in complexity,
undiscovered until .....
On 20/04/2023 04:06, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:No, We Dont.
On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:Back in the day I did quite a lot of work with the likes of SCO Unix,
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
Those who never experienced the CL-only era, only
Winders/Mac-OS, tend to be afraid of the CL. If
it's not GUI they just can't/won't do it
Back in the day when software writers wrote menu systems for
mainframes and minis, productivity was massive, because there was
nothing the users could do to break the system. And if they did,
the software authors fixed it.
Now that you mention it... yes, I have worked with a system like
that. The Lucent (previously AT&T) 5ESSS telephone switch. Terminals
worked over serial ports. But you could also type the commands
instead of the menu shortcuts, which were accessed by numbers IIRC
(another life).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5ESS_Switching_System>
There are no photos of the terminals. Found only a (bad) video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsYETwzUyCo
The advent of Windows PCs jumped the per desktop maintenance cost
by a factor of ten.
and various 'minis' running sys V unix wired up to massive serial
cards running up to 70 green screen serial terminals - usually Wyse
50s as they were reliable and cheap.
Typically they would be running some office based apps and some kind
of database.
The people who supplied the systems would have various menu screens
to access them.
In general one persons part time job was to to insert a tape once a
day, replace paper in the printer and take a backup, and phone the
support team if anything else went wrong.
And it didn't. Mostly they ran and ran.
Nothing for UserFingerPoken.
But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, note
that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
We keep wanting systems to Do More,
We don't want more from a basic word processor then we ever did. 99% of
users would be happy with Word Perfect or Wordstar.
The the 1% would be happy to pay for training.
Most business applications are written to constrain the users to keep
within particular bounds. Those bounds are date entry, into forms for
the most part, and reports. None of these require more than an 80x25
screen. Indeed one visit to my bank revealed a PC that was logged in as
an 80x25 screen to a remote mainframe.
No sign of Windows at all.
but that adds layers
and layers of complexity. Evils can lurk in complexity,
undiscovered until .....
The fault lies not with the users.
It lies with two parts of the
software providers. The marketing team who want to perpetuate
obsolescence to keep their jobs, and the coders who are happy to
implement it in as shoddy and buggy a means . and in as obscure and technically complex a language as is possible
On 4/18/23 21:19, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/18/23 12:06 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 4/17/23 19:24, 26B.X929 wrote:
On 4/16/23 9:20 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-17 00:49, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
Jim Jackson <jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:
On 2023-04-16, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
But cut-n-paste and finding stuff and writing stuff
is much easier with pcmanfm and leafpad :-)
cut-n-paste works in term emulators.
I'd guess he means cut and pasting files. I don't do that myself,
preferring commander-style file managers and F6.
Finding stuff?
Well on the command-line I'm often caught by typos, so I end up
trying tab completion with the wrong start and wondering how the
directory could not be there. Navigating a directory tree with the >>>>>> arrow keys in a file manager often turns out quicker without these >>>>>> hickups. If I were more reliable at typing and remembering
directory names then I can see how the balance might tip the other >>>>>> way, but I'm not.
Same here.
GUI stuff exists for a reason - and often that reason
is that CL approaches require too much precision and
twiddly params few can remember unless maybe they're
17 and gulping caffeine all day.
I'm baffled - I've
never found that. GUI's are so slow and cumbersome.
Maybe because you can pick the faster multicore systems?
Yes because I learned enough about the computers to spot the used computer that I wanted to spend money on.
My present box cost 240 USD.
I got it in April 2020 basically because at 3 lbs it is the
lightest laptop I have yet owned, aside from my useless tablet.
My desktop replacement presently in the slow process of
being upgraded cost twice that and has 4 real i7 cores.
All but two of my laptops and one C=64 were used.
The two new laptops failed in about 4 years.
My used machines have yet to fail except for two machines that
had locked BIOS. They did not fare too well.
What about when you have a directory with say 50 files named after >>>>>> towns and you want to copy 30 of them to another directory, isn't
it easier to select them with the mouse in a file manager than to
cut/paste all the names onto the command line?
Or select each of them with the "insert" key, if you are using 'mc'
:-)
MC is just a 'fake GUI' ... same idea, older approach.
Often use it over SSH connections if the job gets kinda
complex.
I use MC from time to time but since I can run Dolphin in root >>> mode I do not use it so often as I did when I ran Mandriva.
Used to use dolphin way back, but it got weird. Then
KDE got Too Fat and I dumped it entirely (and forget
Gnome too !). I stick to LXDE/OpenBox/IceWM now. JUST
enough GUI.
Tried it lately? It does not take that much memory unless you count SSD space. Of course that is 5.27.4 and 6.x.x may be something completely different.
MC is particularly useful over SSH connections. You can
do a lot more, a lot faster, a lot more accurately, using
MC as compared to dozens of pure CL variations. Sorry,
but I can't remember the zillion param variants for 50
CL utilities.
My KDE Plasma on a 4 core i7 at 2.6 GHz is as fast as an
AmigaOS3.1 was on a 50 MHz 68060. But on Linux we have Memory
Management which is worth more.
bliss - if you start with a C=64 you appreciate a bit of speed.
Hey, I started BEFORE C64's ! :-) The first box I *owned*
was a VIC-20 ... still kinda fond of those, but they were
not "fast".
And I owned a pencil with a built-in multiplication table in
the 1940s and 1950s.
Then I owned a couple of slide rules one in HS and one in a job
I would rather not discuss right now.
On 2023-04-18, 26B.X929 <26BX929@zoq22u.net> wrote:
The Amigas did have graphics capabilities the rivals
were quick to emulate/steal. I know it remained popular
for video production studios for quite awhile because
of the ease of overlaying/blending vids. Most of this
was because of the hardware while the competitors did
it with software - not always as snappy.
Choosing a clock speed of 7.16 MHz was a stroke of genius;
being twice the 3.58-MHz colour subcarrier frequency made
it easy to handle NTSC video. (I can't remember whether
C= built machines with a different clock speed for PAL.)
It was an *interesting* computer in many ways - but
Commodore just didn't have enough punch to make it
a real competitor with Apple/IBM. Commodore became
associated with "toy computers" in the VIC/C64 era
and could not gain a "serious stuff" rep like the
competitors.
Top management didn't know what they had, didn't care,
or were deliberately trying to kill it. Many people
suspect the latter, especially if you've watched the
"Deathbed Vigil" video. Someone quipped that if Commodore
made sushi, they'd market it as "cold dead fish".
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/2023 04:06, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, noteNo, We Dont.
that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
We keep wanting systems to Do More,
We don't want more from a basic word processor then we ever did. 99%
of users would be happy with Word Perfect or Wordstar.
WordPerfect is GOOD - still have it. However I mostly
use LibreOffice now. WordStar was a bit crude, but
you could still get a lot done fast once you learned
a handful of control keys.
But, hate to say it, the PAYING users seem to like
"beauty" over "function" these days. MS/Apple go
to the bank on that.
Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The fault lies not with the users.
Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.
On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The fault lies not with the users.
Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.
And if the user interface changes with each new release,
what's the point of learning anything?
A culture of constant change requires that
ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system that
they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give away.
My Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept the
NT software, but running in a VM.
Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.
The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.
On 2023-04-21 04:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/2023 04:06, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/19/23 5:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 10:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 08:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 05:04, 26B.X939 wrote:
...
But, despite all the hardware/wiring in the olde dayz, noteNo, We Dont.
that the software was relatively SIMPLE by today's standards.
Didn't DO much, so not much could go wrong.
This has changed - indeed even for CL utilities/apps.
We keep wanting systems to Do More,
We don't want more from a basic word processor then we ever did. 99%
of users would be happy with Word Perfect or Wordstar.
WordPerfect is GOOD - still have it. However I mostly
use LibreOffice now. WordStar was a bit crude, but
you could still get a lot done fast once you learned
a handful of control keys.
But, hate to say it, the PAYING users seem to like
"beauty" over "function" these days. MS/Apple go
to the bank on that.
Well, actually modern GUI software is easier to start using than
Wordperfect or WordStar.
On 4/21/23 12:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The fault lies not with the users.
Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.
And if the user interface changes with each new release,
what's the point of learning anything?
Yep. It'd be like 'ls' or 'rsync' changing all the
flags and values and format every release - becomes
unusable. Why would an employer waste $1200 per
employee to learn Whatever-v2.7 when Whatever-v3.0
is gonna look unrecognizably different ?
A culture of constant change requires that
ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
Constant change creates the illusion of "doing
something" ... and justifies paychecks.
On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The fault lies not with the users.
Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.
And if the user interface changes with each new release,
what's the point of learning anything?
A culture of constant change requires that
ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
On 4/21/23 12:44 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The fault lies not with the users.
Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.
And if the user interface changes with each new release,
what's the point of learning anything?
Yep. It'd be like 'ls' or 'rsync' changing all the
flags and values and format every release - becomes
unusable. Why would an employer waste $1200 per
employee to learn Whatever-v2.7 when Whatever-v3.0
is gonna look unrecognizably different ?
Because the salesman is really good.
A culture of constant change requires that
ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
Constant change creates the illusion of "doing
something" ... and justifies paychecks.
Something must be done. This is something.
Therefore, this must be done.
-- Yes, Prime Minister
On 2023-04-21, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-04-21, 26B.X939 <26BX939@zoq23q.net> wrote:
On 4/20/23 4:32 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The fault lies not with the users.
Um ... yea ... often it does. And no, their employers
won't/can't afford a big training program and the
employees themselves rarely hang around long enough
to learn much of anything. Developers need to understand
this situation. It will NOT be guru's using their products,
but Gen-Z pinheads.
And if the user interface changes with each new release,
what's the point of learning anything?
A culture of constant change requires that
ideal solutions be quickly broken or discarded.
Would I guess correctly that you also are required to use
Micro$oft Teams at your day job and experience the partial
upside-downing of posts and replies in channels within the past
few weeks? :-(
For those not afflicted by Teams, at least for myself, it
suddenly switched from being consistently more-recent-at-bottom
to the most recent post and its replies (a "conversation") at the
top but within each conversation the most recent is still at the
bottom. Trying to make chronological sense out of it is
undiluted craziness!
On 13.04.2023 04.40, stepore wrote:
On 4/11/23 07:18, db wrote:
I work with Kubuntu 22.04.
I deleted a file on the Desktop, all folders disappeared from the
Desktop, including the trash can (waste basket). I can regenerate
all the other folders, but how do I get the trash can back? I don't
have nautilus or gconf. It must still be there because when I did
a delete, the system said that the file was put into the trash.
I don't understand the need nor use of "trash". I've never once used
one. Ever.
If i want to delete things I want them gone.
If you think you may need filse but are not sure, then leave them
alone. Delete them properly when they're no longer needed.
But what do you find in:
~/.local/share/Trash
That's where I finally found the erased folders, and was able to
regenerate the trash on the Desktop, as well as those folders.
You must use the trash, when you wipe files, and it empties itself automatically when it gets too full.
On 4/21/23 7:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system that
they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give away.
My Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept
the NT software, but running in a VM.
Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.
The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.
At the "server/datacenter" level, yea, you want it
to WORK RIGHT first and foremost. However that's not
where the Real Money is
individual users and oblivious dept managers and
then blowing enough smoke so they think all the
probs are their OWN fault.
On 21/04/2023 19:57, 26B.X939 wrote:
On 4/21/23 7:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/04/2023 03:30, 26B.X939 wrote:
Linux/Unix is still kind of a Magic Corner of the computing
world where people strive to make Good Stuff for its own
sake. However the MONEY is in MS/Apple stuff for the brain
dead ... first to be replaced by 'AI' ....
Linux/Unix is a corner where people who are actually selling TIN or
SYSTEMS - e.g. IBM - just want a stable reliable operating system
that they are happy to pay a team of developers to maintain and give
away.
My Ex BIL was in charge of migrating hundreds of NT servers in data
centres onto big blade Linux based virtual servers. They often kept
the NT software, but running in a VM.
Other VMs were running Oracle on Linux, replacing Minicomputers.
The saving in electricity and rack space was enormous.
At the "server/datacenter" level, yea, you want it
to WORK RIGHT first and foremost. However that's not
where the Real Money is
You would be surprised. IBM is still a big company.
... it's selling crap to
individual users and oblivious dept managers and
then blowing enough smoke so they think all the
probs are their OWN fault.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 299 |
| Nodes: | 16 (3 / 13) |
| Uptime: | 65:07:11 |
| Calls: | 6,691 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 12,228 |
| Messages: | 5,345,802 |
| Posted today: | 1 |
