A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data to a service provider?

--
croy

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croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data
to a service provider?

When you pay for a cellular provider, well, obviously they'll want
information to obtain payment, like a credit card, and you give them a
billing address that matches what is on the credit card account.

You sure the phone comes with a SIM card? Maybe your friend took it out
to use in his new phone, so you'll have to get a SIM card.

You can buy reloadable pre-paid SIM cards, but you'll have to give them
a credit card number to buy it and therein lies divulging your info.
Only works if you have an UNLOCKED phone. Some Moto G5 are unlocked.
Many are not, especially if the phone was obtained from the carrier for
some promo or discount. Ask your friend if the phone is locked to a
carrier, or unlocked.

You could skip using a cellular provider. Use the phone only with wi-fi connections to make calls. You'll still need a VOIP provider to make
calls via wi-fi over the Internet. I use Google Voice (free in the
USA). With wi-fi, you get Internet access, like for VOIP calls or web browsing.

You could toss the cell phone into your car, and use it only for 911
emergency phone calls. All cells towers are required by the FCC to
support emergency calls.

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On 2023-12-06 00:46, VanguardLH wrote:

croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data
to a service provider?

Use it as phone?

When you pay for a cellular provider, well, obviously they'll want information to obtain payment, like a credit card, and you give them a billing address that matches what is on the credit card account.

You sure the phone comes with a SIM card? Maybe your friend took it out
to use in his new phone, so you'll have to get a SIM card.

You can buy reloadable pre-paid SIM cards, but you'll have to give them
a credit card number to buy it and therein lies divulging your info.
Only works if you have an UNLOCKED phone. Some Moto G5 are unlocked.
Many are not, especially if the phone was obtained from the carrier for
some promo or discount. Ask your friend if the phone is locked to a
carrier, or unlocked.

In my country, and likely in other European countries, after 9-11 it is mandatory to provide full identification, like ID card or passport to
obtain any SIM card.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

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"croy" <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote

|A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.
|
| Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data to a service provider?
|

It's really not realistic to use a cellphone privately.
Google will track you everywhere. If you use apps then
many of those will require private information.

I have a Tracfone. $40. No identification. I buy $20
minutes cards every 3 months. I leave it in my glove
compartment and treat it as a portable phone booth,
only turning it on when necessary. But even then, if I
turn it on then Tracfone/Verizion knows where I am.
It won't work without allowing them to track you. You
wouldn't be able to receive a call.

So you have to decide what you actually want. If you
really just want it for occasional calls then you can leave
it turned off. A charge will last for months. You don't get
tracked. But most people, once they get used to a cellphone,
end up addicted. It's not only your addiction. It's everyone
else's Once people know they can text you, you'll be dealing
with constant, trivial messages. I even know people who don't
want me to use their doorbell. They want me to text them,
because they no longer operate fully in the physical world.
Their world is the phone. Then they get mad at me when I
tell them I don't have a cellphone. (If I told them I have one
but don't turn it on then they'd really get mad. :)

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"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-12-06 00:46, VanguardLH wrote:

croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data
to a service provider?

Use it as phone?

When you pay for a cellular provider, well, obviously they'll want
information to obtain payment, like a credit card, and you give them a
billing address that matches what is on the credit card account.

You sure the phone comes with a SIM card? Maybe your friend took it out
to use in his new phone, so you'll have to get a SIM card.

You can buy reloadable pre-paid SIM cards, but you'll have to give them
a credit card number to buy it and therein lies divulging your info.
Only works if you have an UNLOCKED phone. Some Moto G5 are unlocked.
Many are not, especially if the phone was obtained from the carrier for
some promo or discount. Ask your friend if the phone is locked to a
carrier, or unlocked.

In my country, and likely in other European countries, after 9-11 it is mandatory to provide full identification, like ID card or passport to
obtain any SIM card.

https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-registration-laws/

The "SIM-Card Registration Laws by Country" table is incomplete.
Apparently you have to download the CSV spreadsheet to see more, or use
the search box.

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croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data to a service provider?

You definitely do not need to put a Google Account on that phone.
That one step alone, will hinder those who destroy your privacy.

I haven't had a Google Account on a phone in many phones, since, oh, I
don't remember but sometime around Android 7 I started not adding it.

And you can still download all the free apps you want off the Google Play
Store repository without making a Google Account on the phone.

You can use a calendar, contacts, photos, watch YouTube, hell, even
subscribe to YouTube channels _without_ creating a Google Account.

You can delete almost anything on the phone and install it with better equivalents, e.g., delete Chrome and replace it with Ungoogled Chromium (or Bromite) where everything I speak of is for a non-rooted Android phone.

You never need to create an account - but what that means is you don't use
the apps which _require_ an account, e.g., Facebook, Twitter, etc.

Now... for that cellular service... assuming you don't spoof the IMEI...

I'm sure you can use a burner card, but even that will eventually ping away your privacy by connecting to local cell towers that pinpoint your exact location.

In addition, 9999 out of 10,000 homeowners are stupid when they set up
their router (you must have "_nomap" on the AP and you should set the AP to
not broadcast - not for security - but for privacy reasons that are too detailed for me to explain at this point in the conversation).

Once you do that, you should also set your phone to never upload to the
Google databases your AP information nor that of your neighbors.

That's critical.

That one step alone, which 9,999 out of 10K Android owners are ignorant of,
is the most important step possible for being fingered by your location.

Anyway, back to that cellular service...

Other people will know better than I do how to get burner cards.
Good luck.

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Where I come from, *registered* PAYG SIM cards (for short) are pretty easy
to come by, You could go into a corner store that sells them (there's many, also if you don't know what a corner store is, it is just a small
independent grocer) and there's a 50/50 chance they're already registered to
a middle man or the store's owner. I got one SIM card like this, costed 5k ($1.24 USD), put it in my phone and didn't get an SMS asking me to register
it, went into the carrier's application and it was registered to the store's name.

Of course, this is a specific thing that happens in my country, but
depending on where OP is from, it could be the same. I have a friend in Indonesia and from what they've told me, it's a similar situation in there.

Also, using a carrier but not wanting to give them your information is quite
a bit dumb IMO, because if it's not through registration it's going to be through any other way. You can always just use an independent chat app like Telegram or Signal (WA is more popular sadly) or you could just ignore the phone part of your smartphone and use it as a PDA or for watching videos or gaming.

"VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote in message news:cza8vcdc0ot$.dlg@v.nguard.lh...

croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data
to a service provider?

When you pay for a cellular provider, well, obviously they'll want information to obtain payment, like a credit card, and you give them a billing address that matches what is on the credit card account.

You sure the phone comes with a SIM card? Maybe your friend took it out
to use in his new phone, so you'll have to get a SIM card.

You can buy reloadable pre-paid SIM cards, but you'll have to give them
a credit card number to buy it and therein lies divulging your info.
Only works if you have an UNLOCKED phone. Some Moto G5 are unlocked.
Many are not, especially if the phone was obtained from the carrier for
some promo or discount. Ask your friend if the phone is locked to a
carrier, or unlocked.

You could skip using a cellular provider. Use the phone only with wi-fi connections to make calls. You'll still need a VOIP provider to make
calls via wi-fi over the Internet. I use Google Voice (free in the
USA). With wi-fi, you get Internet access, like for VOIP calls or web browsing.

You could toss the cell phone into your car, and use it only for 911 emergency phone calls. All cells towers are required by the FCC to
support emergency calls.

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On 12/5/23 5:42 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

most people, once they get used to a cellphone,
end up addicted. It's not only your addiction. It's everyone
else's Once people know they can text you, you'll be dealing
with constant, trivial messages.

YMMV. With a very large family living around a very large country (US) my
phone keeps me in touch with texts, videos, and calls. Sure beats the
letter writing of the old days IMO. Currently one family is visiting France
and one Hawaii. Very interesting videos.

I just got a new toy. A North Bison (yup, that's the brand) 7" $39US Android
tablet. Not a bad machine for such a cheapie. This is it's first time on
Usenet (actually for a test). Everybody clap...

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On 6 Dec 2023 01:03:03 +0100 Carlos E. R. wrote:

In my country, and likely in other European countries, after 9-11 it is >mandatory to provide full identification, like ID card or passport to
obtain any SIM card.

The requirement to register when buying a PAYG SIM spread after the 2004
Madrid train bombings. I was sailing in the Med when countries started introducing these rules: it was a PITA, because we had no fixed address
and needed several SIMs for each country to get enough data.

Not that it ever stopped bad people getting a burner phone.


--
(Remove numerics from email address)

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On 2023-12-06 08:51, Dave Royal wrote:

On 6 Dec 2023 01:03:03 +0100 Carlos E. R. wrote:

In my country, and likely in other European countries, after 9-11 it is
mandatory to provide full identification, like ID card or passport to
obtain any SIM card.

The requirement to register when buying a PAYG SIM spread after the 2004 Madrid train bombings. I was sailing in the Med when countries started introducing these rules: it was a PITA, because we had no fixed address
and needed several SIMs for each country to get enough data.

Not that it ever stopped bad people getting a burner phone.

Ah, 03-11, of the 2004, not 9-11. Yes, those bombs were fired with
phones, so they had justification to demand IDs. But as you say, bad
guys continue getting them somehow.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

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On 06/12/2023 00:59, Wally J wrote:

In addition, 9999 out of 10,000 homeowners are stupid when they set up
their router (you must have "_nomap" on the AP and you should set the AP to not broadcast - not for security - but for privacy reasons that are too detailed for me to explain at this point in the conversation).

Once you do that, you should also set your phone to never upload to the Google databases your AP information nor that of your neighbors.

That's critical.

That one step alone, which 9,999 out of 10K Android owners are ignorant of, is the most important step possible for being fingered by your location.

Perhaps add _optout_nomap for Microsoft too? <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289798>

There seems to be some doubt that _nomap is always effective. See some
of the comments here: <https://www.ghacks.net/2014/10/29/add-_nomap-to-your-routers-ssid-to-have-it-ignored-by-google-and-mozilla/>

--

Jeff

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Jeff Layman wrote:

Perhaps add _optout_nomap for Microsoft too? <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289798>

Alternate method to tell microsoft to get lost

<https://account.microsoft.com/privacy/location-services-opt-out>

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On 6 Dec 2023 10:00:15 +0100 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2023-12-06 08:51, Dave Royal wrote:

On 6 Dec 2023 01:03:03 +0100 Carlos E. R. wrote:

In my country, and likely in other European countries, after 9-11 it is
mandatory to provide full identification, like ID card or passport to
obtain any SIM card.

The requirement to register when buying a PAYG SIM spread after the 2004
Madrid train bombings. I was sailing in the Med when countries started
introducing these rules: it was a PITA, because we had no fixed address
and needed several SIMs for each country to get enough data.

Not that it ever stopped bad people getting a burner phone.

Ah, 03-11, of the 2004, not 9-11. Yes, those bombs were fired with
phones, so they had justification to demand IDs. But as you say, bad
guys continue getting them somehow.

It was security theatre, not so much to deter terrorists as to reassure
the public that 'something was being done'. The IRA had been setting off
such bombs in Northern Ireland for ages, but no similar measures were
taken. And AFAIK there is still no requirement to register a PAYG phone in
the UK.

--
(Remove numerics from email address)

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Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote

Perhaps add _optout_nomap for Microsoft too?
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289798>

Alternate method to tell microsoft to get lost <https://account.microsoft.com/privacy/location-services-opt-out>

Four important related things...

1. First, I very much appreciate that you're both adding value.
As we're a team, where nobody knows what everyone knows.
Together, we're like a football team, moving the ball forward.

Every time one person asks a question, all the rest of us learn.

2. Second, I never understood this Microsoft "_optout_" directive.
I used it for a while; but I never understood what it does.
For example, where in Windows 10 or 11 do you turn it on/off?

3. Thirdly, the "_nomap" & _optout_" were/are needed because 999
people out of a thousand are incredibly ignorant so they
leave their computers/phones set up at the marketing defaults.
(Most are scared like little rabbits to "change" settings.)

The problem is we're being attacked (figuratively speaking)
from most people who are not only stupid but incredibly rude.

4. While all the above applies to many privacy based settings,
lastly, we discussed this, long ago, as I remember Carlos
Paul & Marco Moock & even Andy Burns talking about it, where
it was my understanding at that time (long ago) Microsoft stopped
using "_optout_" in the 2016 Windows Anniversary Edition.

So I stopped using it as I trust those people.

Given those points, what's important is to confirm what the status is.

Jeff's link <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289798> doesn't
exist for me (can someone else try it?) but Andy's link works fine.
<https://account.microsoft.com/privacy/location-services-opt-out>
That's interesting, as you have to give away your privacy to get it.

Both Google & Microsoft implemented their "opt out" methods that way
because they knew nobody would opt in (which is a telling observation).

But we're stuck with it.
And we're stuck with 999 out of 1000 people being incredibly stupid.

Andy's link is good - because it implies Microsoft is still using the
database, but let's figure out whether Microsoft operating systems are
still using the Wi-Fi access point "_optout_" directive or not.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=does+Microsoft+%2B_optout_>

*Microsoft Disables Wi-Fi Sense on Windows 10*, May 18, 2016
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2016/05/microsoft-disables-wi-fi-sense-on-windows-10/>
"Microsoft has disabled its controversial Wi-Fi Sense feature,
a component embedded in Windows 10 devices that shares access
to WiFi networks to which you connect with any contacts you
may have listed in Outlook and Skype, and, with an opt-in,
your Facebook friends."

"We have removed the Wi-Fi Sense feature that allows you to
share Wi-Fi networks with your contacts and to be automatically
connected to networks shared by your contacts," wrote Gabe Aul,
corporate vice president of Microsoft's engineering systems team."

So here's the conundrum since I'm a creature borne of sensible logic.
a. If Microsoft is no longer using "_optout_"
b. Then why is Microsoft allowing you to opt out of their database?

Another conundrum is whether we still need to add it to our AP SSID?
Do we?
--
Usenet is a way to share information among many other intelligent people.

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On 06/12/2023 15:19, Wally J wrote:

Jeff's link <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32289798> doesn't
exist for me (can someone else try it?) but Andy's link works fine.

Strange. It's still working for me. It was just a reply in the thread at <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32285638>. In case you just can't
view it, this is what the reply said:
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------

prophesi on July 30, 2022 | parent | context | favorite | on:

Recommended settings for Wi-Fi routers and access ...

Another recommendation I'd add is appending "_optout_nomap" to your SSID
name. That will let you opt out of both Microsoft and Google's access
point data collection.

kartugestu on July 30, 2022 [–]

is the "_optout" part of "_optout_nomap" required? i thought "_nomap" is sufficient. https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en#zippy=%...

kartugestu on July 30, 2022 | parent [–]

ah _optout is microsoft i did not know that.

prophesi on July 30, 2022 | root | parent [–]

Yeah I only learned about it recently. And apparently "_nomap" _has_ to
be at the end of the SSID. A weird system for something that should be
opt-in anyways.
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------

Note that this reply is less than 18 months old.

--

Jeff

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Wally J wrote:

I never understood this Microsoft "optout" directive.
I used it for a while; but I never understood what it does.
For example, where in Windows 10 or 11 do you turn it on/off?

I thought "optout" was related to it copying known wifi credentials into
your microsoft account (if you use one) so that if e.g. your win10
laptop knew your them, it could let your phone know them?

Obviously win10 mobile went away, and I thought the credential sharing
went away too, maybe it still exists in LTSC versions?

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AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

On 12/5/23 5:42 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

most people, once they get used to a cellphone,
end up addicted. It's not only your addiction. It's everyone
else's Once people know they can text you, you'll be dealing
with constant, trivial messages.

YMMV. With a very large family living around a very large country (US) my
phone keeps me in touch with texts, videos, and calls. Sure beats the
letter writing of the old days IMO. Currently one family is visiting France
and one Hawaii. Very interesting videos.

Exactly!

It's silly to pretend a smartphone has only/mainly disadvantages/
dangers or no real useful purpose.

It's quite possible to use the many advantages - like the ones you
mention - without being "addicted" or/and be at risk (privacy or
otherwise).

It's especially tragic when people rant about these things, while they
do have and use a computer, which can also do most - if not all - of
these dreadful things and also when they're mobile. The dreaded
smartphone is only smaller than the pefectly acceptable computer and the computer probably/perhaps can not make 'cellular' calls, but that's
about it.

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In comp.mobile.android, on Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:09:20 -0800, croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data to a service provider?

What personal data do you mean? I really mean that question.

There are loads of uses for a smart phone that don't involve personal
data. The most valuable afaic is google maps. It shows where you are,
it lets you find other locations, hardware stores, restaurants in
general, Gramma's Pizza in particular, gas stations when you're running
out of gas. Whatever. It lets you filter out ones that are closed at
the moment.

Other apps can tell you your altitude, play music (even for free), play
news, keep track of how much you walk, tell which direction is north,
and on and on. A smart phone is the best bargain for the money since
the lightbulb.

Location? Well the phone has to be able to find your location or they
would have to send phone calls meant for you to every phone in the world
at the same time. They'd have to send every phone call in the world
from every cell tower in the world at the same time. Sounds very
difficult technically. But I don't care if people, even the police or
Russian agents, know where I am, and I turn my phone off when not using
it so I can sneak around and no one knows.

Financial? Except for one bank I don't log into bank or stock broker
accounts on the phone. I do log into my savings account but only so I
can deposit checks without going to the bank. If you don't have to
deposit checks, you don't even have to log into that.
Even though I dont' ask the phone to save the userid or password, I'm
not sure it's not in temporary storage -- people who know how it works
can tell me if I'm on the wrong track here.

Enough for now.

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In comp.mobile.android, on Wed, 06 Dec 2023 15:58:24 -0500, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In comp.mobile.android, on Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:09:20 -0800, croy ><croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data to a service provider?

What personal data do you mean? I really mean that question.

There are loads of uses for a smart phone that don't involve personal
data. The most valuable afaic is google maps. It shows where you are,
it lets you find other locations, hardware stores, restaurants in
general, Gramma's Pizza in particular, gas stations when you're running
out of gas. Whatever. It lets you filter out ones that are closed at
the moment.

Other apps can tell you your altitude, play music (even for free), play
news, keep track of how much you walk, tell which direction is north,
and on and on. A smart phone is the best bargain for the money since
the lightbulb.

And you can use the webbrowser almost as well as at home (not quite,
because I still don't know how to open more than one tab) to find out
anything you might want to know or to read.

And since they took magazines out of doctors' waiting rooms, I have been carrying a weekly newpaper in my car, but sometimes I forget it and I
have to replace it when I've read it. If I have my smart phone that
day, I can read the news while I'm waiting.

I could read my email too but I only do that if I'm out and didnt' take
an address with me like I should have.

Even though one has to pay for cellular service it's not that expensive considering that a smart phone is the best bargain for the money since
the lightbulb.

Location? Well the phone has to be able to find your location or they
would have to send phone calls meant for you to every phone in the world
at the same time. They'd have to send every phone call in the world
from every cell tower in the world at the same time. Sounds very
difficult technically. But I don't care if people, even the police or >Russian agents, know where I am, and I turn my phone off when not using
it so I can sneak around and no one knows.

Financial? Except for one bank I don't log into bank or stock broker >accounts on the phone. I do log into my savings account but only so I
can deposit checks without going to the bank. If you don't have to
deposit checks, you don't even have to log into that.
Even though I dont' ask the phone to save the userid or password, I'm
not sure it's not in temporary storage -- people who know how it works
can tell me if I'm on the wrong track here.

Enough for now.

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On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 15:09:20 -0800, croy <croy@spam.invalid.net> wrote:

A friend has offered to give me a Moto g5 plus.

Is there a way to use this phone without giving all my personal data to a service provider?

Thanks everybody, good answers!

--
croy

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