Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year
https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
A good thing from Android users PoV, and hopefully from Apple users PoV
too. Difficult to see any downside once it's up and running?
Andy Burns wrote:
Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year
https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
A good thing from Android users PoV, and hopefully from Apple users PoV
too. Difficult to see any downside once it's up and running?
The downside is to iMessage but it seems Apple has already planned for that given the article provided this direct-from-Apple cautionary warning.
"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage
when available."
Later on the article reiterates "This is not Apple opening up iMessage to other platforms. Instead, it's the company adopting RCS separately from iMessage."
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about implementation?
So apple to apple will continue to use imessage, doesn't affect or
bother me.
Not much, until the dog gets to see the rabbit.
One thing I noticed in TechRadar's reporting of the RCS news
"There is, naturally, a wrinkle here. The RCS standard
still doesn't support end-to-end encryption."
My Pixel5a reports E2EE when using RCS to a fellow android user
<http://andyburns.uk/misc/rcs-e2ee.png>
So is google RCS using a proprietary encryption method, or are TechRadar >wrong?
On 16 Nov 2023 19:56:20 +0000 Andy Burns wrote:
So apple to apple will continue to use imessage, doesn't affect or
bother me.
Not much, until the dog gets to see the rabbit.
One thing I noticed in TechRadar's reporting of the RCS news
"There is, naturally, a wrinkle here. The RCS standard
still doesn't support end-to-end encryption."
My Pixel5a reports E2EE when using RCS to a fellow android user
<http://andyburns.uk/misc/rcs-e2ee.png>
So is google RCS using a proprietary encryption method, or are TechRadar
wrong?
Quote: "Apple says that RCS does not currently support encryption that is
as strong as iMessage." From https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
Andrew wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about
implementation?
Not much, until the dog gets to see the rabbit.
One thing I noticed in TechRadar's reporting of the RCS news
"There is, naturally, a wrinkle here. The RCS standard
still doesn't support end-to-end encryption."
My Pixel5a reports E2EE when using RCS to a fellow android user
<http://andyburns.uk/misc/rcs-e2ee.png>
So is google RCS using a proprietary encryption method, or are TechRadar wrong?
Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
"Apple has announced today that it will adopt the RCS (Rich Communication Services) messaging standard. The feature will launch via a software update "later next year" and bring a wide range of iMessage-style features to messaging between iPhone and Android users.
Apple's decision comes amid pressure from regulators and competitors like Google and Samsung. It also comes as RCS has continued to develop and
become a more mature platform than it once was."
On 2023-11-16 20:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about implementation? >>Not much, until the dog gets to see the rabbit.
One thing I noticed in TechRadar's reporting of the RCS news
"There is, naturally, a wrinkle here. The RCS standard
still doesn't support end-to-end encryption."
This is simply not true.
That Apple will implement it or not, is another issue.
My Pixel5a reports E2EE when using RCS to a fellow android user
<http://andyburns.uk/misc/rcs-e2ee.png>
So is google RCS using a proprietary encryption method, or are TechRadar wrong?
They are wrong.
On 2023-11-16 21:22:50 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
On 2023-11-16 20:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about
implementation?
Not much, until the dog gets to see the rabbit.
One thing I noticed in TechRadar's reporting of the RCS news
����"There is, naturally, a wrinkle here. The RCS standard
����still doesn't support end-to-end encryption."
This is simply not true.
The actual RCS Standard itself currently does *not* include end-to-end >encryption. Google has added end-to-end encryption themselves in their
own app, making it non-standard.
We've already seen the problems that can occur when big companies try
to make up the rules themselves as the "standard". Microsloth tried to
do it with web standards in Internet Explorer, and caused lots of
problems for web designers, web browser makers, and users.
That Apple will implement it or not, is another issue.
Apple won't be implementing Google's non-standard end-to-end
encryption. Apple might implement it's own non-standard encryption or
might wait for ti to be officially included in the actual standard.
Having competing non-standard methods would simply make it even messier
with messaging apps not compatible with each other ... defeating the
entire reason there are official standards in the first place!
On 2023-11-16 21:22:50 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
On 2023-11-16 20:56, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about
implementation?
Not much, until the dog gets to see the rabbit.
One thing I noticed in TechRadar's reporting of the RCS news
"There is, naturally, a wrinkle here. The RCS standard
still doesn't support end-to-end encryption."
This is simply not true.
The actual RCS Standard itself currently does *not* include end-to-end encryption. Google has added end-to-end encryption themselves in their
own app, making it non-standard.
We've already seen the problems that can occur when big companies try to
make up the rules themselves as the "standard". Microsloth tried to do
it with web standards in Internet Explorer, and caused lots of problems
for web designers, web browser makers, and users.
That Apple will implement it or not, is another issue.
Apple won't be implementing Google's non-standard end-to-end encryption. Apple might implement it's own non-standard encryption or might wait for
ti to be officially included in the actual standard. Having competing non-standard methods would simply make it even messier with messaging
apps not compatible with each other ... defeating the entire reason
there are official standards in the first place!
Andy Burns wrote on Thu, 16 Nov 2023 18:57:36 +0000 :
Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year
https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
A good thing from Android users PoV, and hopefully from Apple users PoV
too. Difficult to see any downside once it's up and running?
The downside is to iMessage
"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage
when available."
So apple to apple will continue to use imessage, doesn't affect or
bother me.
The downside is to iMessage
Articulate this supposed "downside to iMessage".
We've already seen the problems that can occur when big companies try
to make up the rules themselves as the "standard". Microsloth tried to
do it with web standards in Internet Explorer, and caused lots of
problems for web designers, web browser makers, and users.
That Apple will implement it or not, is another issue.
Apple won't be implementing Google's non-standard end-to-end
encryption. Apple might implement it's own non-standard encryption or
might wait for ti to be officially included in the actual standard.
Having competing non-standard methods would simply make it even messier
with messaging apps not compatible with each other ... defeating the
entire reason there are official standards in the first place!
Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
"Apple has announced today that it will adopt the RCS (Rich Communication Services) messaging standard. The feature will launch via a software update "later next year" and bring a wide range of iMessage-style features to messaging between iPhone and Android users.
Apple's decision comes amid pressure from regulators and competitors like Google and Samsung. It also comes as RCS has continued to develop and
become a more mature platform than it once was."
On 2023-11-16 19:47, Wally J wrote:
Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next year
https://9to5mac.com/2023/11/16/apple-rcs-coming-to-iphone/
"Apple has announced today that it will adopt the RCS (Rich Communication
Services) messaging standard. The feature will launch via a software update >> "later next year" and bring a wide range of iMessage-style features to
messaging between iPhone and Android users.
Apple's decision comes amid pressure from regulators and competitors like
Google and Samsung. It also comes as RCS has continued to develop and
become a more mature platform than it once was."
Nice.
It is true, not a joke?
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like. Especially given they're being forced to adopt RCS standards by others.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an improvement?
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like.
Especially given they're being forced to adopt RCS standards by others.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
When I set Google Messages as my default messenger, it supports multiple types of message (RCS/SMS/MMS ... I just happen to mostly ignore the latter)
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an improvement?
I doubt they'll do that, at present an apple user doesn't have to choose
a different app in order to send an SMS to me, their phone realises I'm
not an imessage user, so it falls back to SMS. Next year I expect it
will have two levels of fallback, firstly to RCS, and secondly to SMS,
if someone else chooses to pay to send me an MMS I don't mind, but
they'll have no need to pay once apple has RCS.
Andy Burns wrote on Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:56:20 +0000 :
"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage >>> when available."
So apple to apple will continue to use imessage, doesn't affect or
bother me.
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like. Especially given they're being forced to adopt RCS standards by others.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an improvement?
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 04:01:48 GMT :
The downside is to iMessage
Articulate this supposed "downside to iMessage".
Apple is being forced to implement this RCS standard and Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their home-grown messenger app.
As of now, there can only be one messenger app, so a potential downside is Apple may need to open up their walled garden to multiple messenger apps.
Andy Burns wrote on Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:56:20 +0000 :
"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage >>> when available."
So apple to apple will continue to use imessage, doesn't affect or
bother me.
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like. Especially given they're being forced to adopt RCS standards by others.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an improvement?
RCS is still rooted in the phone system as the common communications
element whereas iMessage (and other iCloud services) are internet based services.
So if you're on an iPhone or Mac (or other Apple device) and want to
send a text to an Android user, if the phone number isn't in someone's
iCloud account it is assumed to be non-Apple and the call is routed as
any SMS/MMS (and soon RCS) message: via the phone system - so a Mac
would use the user's iPhone to send the message.[1]
All this is transparent to the user as long as he has at least one phone device and account that can do SMS/MMS/RCS. Not sure if Apple could
stop a 3rd party app from doing RCS - however that might not support the
case of a user doing the RCS from a separate device (a Mac).
Expect the Apple eco-system to continue to expand in capability and
features all over, including in iMessage while also adding RCS.
[1] Apple do this so well that: Once upon a time I left my iPhone at
work (30 km away). From my Mac I could still send SMS/MMS to Android
users. The Mac would delegate to my iPhone and conduct the exchange via
the internet. (Won't do voice calls, alas).
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 04:01:48 GMT :
The downside is to iMessage
Articulate this supposed "downside to iMessage".
Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their home-grown messenger app.
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
so a potential downside is Apple may need to open up their walled
garden to multiple messenger apps.
Andy Burns wrote on Thu, 16 Nov 2023 19:56:20 +0000 :
"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from
iMessage when available."
So apple to apple will continue to use imessage, doesn't affect or
bother me.
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like.
they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
improvement?
Andy Burns wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 07:12:44 +0000 :
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not
like. Especially given they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
by others.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default
messenger)?
When I set Google Messages as my default messenger, it supports
multiple types of message (RCS/SMS/MMS ... I just happen to mostly
ignore the latter)
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS
chats? If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
improvement?
I doubt they'll do that, at present an apple user doesn't have to
choose a different app in order to send an SMS to me, their phone
realises I'm not an imessage user, so it falls back to SMS. Next
year I expect it will have two levels of fallback, firstly to RCS,
and secondly to SMS, if someone else chooses to pay to send me an MMS
I don't mind, but they'll have no need to pay once apple has RCS.
What some foresee is what's already been predicted in the news that
Apple will implement an unworkable solution that follows the letter of
the law.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 08:49:54 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
RCS is still rooted in the phone system as the common communications
element whereas iMessage (and other iCloud services) are internet
based services.
So if you're on an iPhone or Mac (or other Apple device) and want to
send a text to an Android user, if the phone number isn't in
someone's iCloud account it is assumed to be non-Apple and the call
is routed as any SMS/MMS (and soon RCS) message: via the phone system
- so a Mac would use the user's iPhone to send the message.[1]
All this is transparent to the user as long as he has at least one
phone device and account that can do SMS/MMS/RCS. Not sure if Apple
could stop a 3rd party app from doing RCS - however that might not
support the case of a user doing the RCS from a separate device (a
Mac).
Expect the Apple eco-system to continue to expand in capability and
features all over, including in iMessage while also adding RCS.
[1] Apple do this so well that: Once upon a time I left my iPhone at
work (30 km away). From my Mac I could still send SMS/MMS to Android
users. The Mac would delegate to my iPhone and conduct the exchange
via the internet. (Won't do voice calls, alas).
You say this as if it's a big deal
You're all excited about logging into a server farm.
Idiot. Apple will implement RCS if at all in the manner and quality we
are used from Apple. Google plays no role in this picture:
Finally, Apple says it will work with the GSMA members on ways to
further improve the RCS protocol. This particularly includes improving
the security and encryption of RCS messages. Apple also told 9to5Mac
that it will not use any sort of proprietary end-to-end encryption on
top of RCS. Its focus is on improving the RCS standard itself.
For comparison’s sake, Google’s implementation of end-to-end encryption is part of the Messages app on Android rather than the RCS spec itself.
Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
home-grown messenger app.
I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
supported in the Apple Messages app.
Go ahead and provide your source for this, please.
Also, that's not a "downside to iMessage".
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
That's simply not true.
There are many messaging apps available for
iPhones, including WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of
others. Whoever fed you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they are talking about and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.
so a potential downside is Apple may need to open up their walled
garden to multiple messenger apps.
There have been multiple alternative messaging apps available for iPhone
for decades. That's not a downside for iMessage.
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not like.
You're saying that based on your gross ignorance on the subject.
they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
You have no evidence this isn't being done willingly.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
That's exactly what is happening. Apple will be adding RCS support to
the default Apple Messages app, which is what most people in the United States use anyway.
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS chats?
Nppe. See above.
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
improvement?
People outside of the United States who already use alternative
messaging apps and services will continue to do so. Those people don't typically use SMS anyway, so RCS won't be used by them. And for the few
that do use SMS, they are already used to those messages appearing in
Apple's Messages app. Also, when a message comes in it's displayed in a notification on the screen regardless of what app is running at the
time, so tapping it opens whatever app it's from. This "concern" of
yours is a big nothing burger.
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
There is another item to consider: The EU will probably force all
message system to coordinate somehow and send/receive messages from/to
other message systems, somehow.
This includes the Apple imessage app. It will probably be forced to
interact with WhatsApp, for instance.
Will Apple restrict this to EU only?
On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 04:01:48 GMT :
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
That's simply not true. There are many messaging apps available for
iPhones, including WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of
others. Whoever fed you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they are talking about and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.🤣
Carlos E. R. wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 13:43:53 +0100 :
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default messenger)?
There is another item to consider: The EU will probably force all
message system to coordinate somehow and send/receive messages from/to
other message systems, somehow.
Thank you for bringing up that additional item to consider which is that
this RCS letter of the law may affect not only Apple but Meta & others too.
This includes the Apple imessage app. It will probably be forced to
interact with WhatsApp, for instance.
Based on the twenty or thirty articles I've read on this, it seems Apple
may have decided not to explain yet how it will "interact" with other messengers - nor even how it will interact with iMessage other than every cite saying that Apple said RCS will "exist separately" from iMessage.
You can be sure Apple executives know what "exists separately" means
(even if the rest of us will just have to wait until iOS 18 to find out).
In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
home-grown messenger app.
I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
supported in the Apple Messages app.
Did you read the opening post?
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 08:49:54 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
RCS is still rooted in the phone system as the common communications
element whereas iMessage (and other iCloud services) are internet
based services.
So if you're on an iPhone or Mac (or other Apple device) and want to
send a text to an Android user, if the phone number isn't in someone's
iCloud account it is assumed to be non-Apple and the call is routed as
any SMS/MMS (and soon RCS) message: via the phone system - so a Mac
would use the user's iPhone to send the message.[1]
All this is transparent to the user as long as he has at least one
phone device and account that can do SMS/MMS/RCS. Not sure if Apple
could stop a 3rd party app from doing RCS - however that might not
support the case of a user doing the RCS from a separate device (a Mac).
Expect the Apple eco-system to continue to expand in capability and
features all over, including in iMessage while also adding RCS.
[1] Apple do this so well that: Once upon a time I left my iPhone at
work (30 km away). From my Mac I could still send SMS/MMS to Android
users. The Mac would delegate to my iPhone and conduct the exchange
via the internet. (Won't do voice calls, alas).
You say this as if it's a big deal when any Internet service can do that. It's not "Apple" doing it. Android does it too. So does Windows do it.
Even Linux does it. You're all excited about logging into a server farm.
But still: you are ignoring how Apple's iCloud services are implemented
and indeed it's because of its implementation that it does so many
things seamlessly that you can't get across Android except in limited
cases and examples.
In comp.mobile.android Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
Idiot. Apple will implement RCS if at all in the manner and quality we
are used from Apple. Google plays no role in this picture:
Finally, Apple says it will work with the GSMA members on ways to
further improve the RCS protocol. This particularly includes improving
the security and encryption of RCS messages. Apple also told 9to5Mac
that it will not use any sort of proprietary end-to-end encryption on
top of RCS. Its focus is on improving the RCS standard itself.
For comparison’s sake, Google’s implementation of end-to-end encryption >> is part of the Messages app on Android rather than the RCS spec itself.
The politics here is that the GSMA may not be in favour of E2EE, because governments (and hence telcos) want their interception powers. Google have gone it alone in terms of designing an E2EE extension for RCS (based on Signal).
It may be that with Google and Apple both in favour of it, suddenly that
will apply enough pressure on the GSMA to ratify the E2EE spec, perhaps as
an 'option'. Then Apple and Google both happen to implement the 'optional' E2EE. Or the governments may apply pressure on the GSMA not to do so.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:19:39 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
But still: you are ignoring how Apple's iCloud services are
implemented and indeed it's because of its implementation that it does
so many things seamlessly that you can't get across Android except in
limited cases and examples.
Big deal.
The walled garden is an Internet server you are logged into all the time.
No matter who makes your operating system (Apple, Google or Microsoft)
when you log into the same Internet server from two separate devices,
one in each hand, then you can do things between those two different
devices.
You don't understand that what you're doing isn't actually going from
one device in your left hand to the other device that is in your right
hand.
Instead it's going from the one device in your left hand to the Internet server and then from that Internet server back to the other device.
Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what it is.
Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always be logged in.
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
is: """This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users. """
This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.
And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).
Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:29:00 -0500 :
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
is: """´This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.¡ """
This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the
iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.
And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).
I will agree with you that this is extremely careful wording which has been vetted likely by dozens of high-level executives, lawyers & marketing.
Apple is very good at implying things that they know aren't true and Apple
is getting used to being forced to comply with consumer friendly EU laws.
Apple has supplied every media outlet they could with those carefully
vetted words & no media outlet says they have more information than that.
We all will have to wait to see what it means when Apple says that RCS will "exist separately" from the iMessage app & still meet consumer expectation.
On 2023-11-17 12:10, Andrew wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
home-grown messenger app.
I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
supported in the Apple Messages app.
Did you read the opening post?
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
is: """“This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.” """
This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_
Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 14:29:00 -0500 :
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
is: """´This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the
best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.¡ """
This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_ while not employing the
iMessage messaging system. ie: it uses the "phone" system - just as it
uses SMS/MMS over the phone system for RCS.
And (because: Apple), when a non phone device sends (or receives) an RCS
it will be via the iPhone (or iPads with cell transceivers).
I will agree with you that this is extremely careful wording which has been vetted likely by dozens of high-level executives, lawyers & marketing.
Apple is very good at implying things that they know aren't true
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about implementation?
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
home-grown messenger app.
I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
supported in the Apple Messages app.
Did you read the opening post?
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
Go ahead and provide your source for this, please.
Maybe next time read the cites people provided before saying that Apple didn't say that RCS will exist separate from iMessage.
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023
Message-ID: <uj5r4n$2g4e$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>
"RCS will simply supplant SMS and MMS and exist separately from iMessage
when available."
Later on the article reiterates "This is not Apple opening up iMessage to other platforms. Instead, it's the company adopting RCS separately from iMessage."
Let me give you a bit of advice. When you challenge someone to repeat what was already cited you should at least click on the URLs already cited.
I shouldn't have to repeat to you what you didn't bother to read.
Also, that's not a "downside to iMessage".
You didn't understand what I said
Apple said RCS would exist separately from iMessage. The question is
what does "exist" mean and what does "separately" mean to Apple.
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
That's simply not true.
This is my mistake for not being crystal clear because many people are like you are in that they don't realize there can only be one default text messenger on any phone, whether that's an iPhone or an Android phone.
There are many messaging apps available for iPhones, including
WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of others. Whoever fed
you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they are talking about
and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.
See above. You need to learn how default text messaging works.
so a potential downside is Apple may need to open up their walled
garden to multiple messenger apps.
There have been multiple alternative messaging apps available for iPhone
for decades. That's not a downside for iMessage.
You don't understand the default text messenger concept
probably because you've never used any other default text messenger
than the iMessage app.
Even on Android where you can change your one default text messenger to another app, it takes a while to swap over all the existing messages so people don't do it all that often in the lifetime of the device.
It's like walking on coals. You can do it. But it hurts.
Anyway, you seem to be bent on claiming Apple didn't say that RCS will
exist separate from iMessage so you can go on thinking that if you want.
We can only guess until Apple clarifies what "RCS exists" means to Apple.
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:43:37 GMT :
I think Apple will implement it but in a way that you might not
like.
You're saying that based on your gross ignorance on the subject.
You didn't read any of the cites and then you say that I am who is
ignorant that every cite says Apple said RCS will exist separately
from iMessage?
they're being forced to adopt RCS standards
You have no evidence this isn't being done willingly.
You have to be the only person in the universe who would say such a
thing.
Apple had no intention of supporting RCS until
What if Apple allows 3rd-party RCS messaging apps but still only one
default messenger (just as Android only allows one default
messenger)?
That's exactly what is happening. Apple will be adding RCS support to
the default Apple Messages app, which is what most people in the
United States use anyway.
You seem to know so much about the implementation that nobody else but
Apple knows, and yet you don't know what Apple said in all the cites.
Will the user need to manually switch messengers to access RCS
chats?
Nppe. See above.
You haven't read a single cite and yet you know all about it. Amazing.
If that's the implementation, do you think that will be an
improvement?
People outside of the United States who already use alternative
messaging apps and services will continue to do so. Those people
don't typically use SMS anyway, so RCS won't be used by them. And for
the few that do use SMS, they are already used to those messages
appearing in Apple's Messages app. Also, when a message comes in it's
displayed in a notification on the screen regardless of what app is
running at the time, so tapping it opens whatever app it's from. This
"concern" of yours is a big nothing burger.
You don't understand anything about text messaging
you claim to know everything about Apple's implementation
Apple won't clarify what they mean by RCS existing separately from
iMessages.
"Apple could have simply made iMessage compatible with RCS, which
would have ended this drama once and for all. But instead, RCS will
work alongside SMS and MMS in the iPhone's Messages app as an option
for users who text with non-iPhone users."
On 2023-11-17 17:36, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 04:01:48 GMT :
...
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
That's simply not true. There are many messaging apps available for
iPhones, including WhatsApp, Signal, Facebook Messenger, and lots of
others. Whoever fed you this line of nonsense doesn't know what they
are talking about and shouldn't be trusted on the topic.🤣
In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.
On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
Nonsense. There are many messaging apps available for iOS.
Carlos E. R. wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:51:14 +0100 :
In this context, "messenger app" is the app that does SMS/MMS.
Thank you for helping him better understand the concept of a default
text messenger, because multiple times he equated the concept with the
likes of WhatsApp
Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what it is.
Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always be logged in.
Again you misconstrue the purpose of the login. While it is for the
server purpose as well it is also to assure that one person's devices
are authorized to talk to one another even if neither is currently
capable of talking to the iCloud servers.
On 2023-11-18 00:47, Jolly Roger wrote:
On 2023-11-17, Andrew <andrew@spam.net> wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
As of now, there can only be one messenger app
Nonsense. There are many messaging apps available for iOS.
All installed simultaneously, all handling SMS/MMS?
On 11/16/2023 11:39 AM, Andrew wrote:
<snip>
What do those cautionary warnings from Apple tell you about
implementation?
Nothing.
Obviously they did extensive market research and decided that offering
RCS would not negatively affect iPhone sales..
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:06:41 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what
it is. Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always
be logged in.
Again you misconstrue the purpose of the login. While it is for the
server purpose as well it is also to assure that one person's
devices are authorized to talk to one another even if neither is
currently capable of talking to the iCloud servers.
Do you realize Android devices "securely talk to" a Windows PC WITHOUT needing the account that you need for Apple
There is no indication RCS won't be supported in the default
Apple Messages app.
You're looking for sinister where Apple are just making sure they and
their product clients have exclusive use of Apple lanes.
Why I state that it most likely means that as SMS/MMS are handled by Message(app) on Apple devices currently, so will RCS - that is via the
phone network and not enjoy the "privilege" of using the iMessage
messaging system or other iCloud components.
Further (and they said such very plainly) they will not open iMessage to
3rd parties (beyond the existing and evolving API's).
So Apple reserve their lane and access the other lanes at will.
On 2023-11-17, Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
On 2023-11-17 12:10, Andrew wrote:
Jolly Roger wrote on 17 Nov 2023 16:36:59 GMT :
Apple has already said that they won't be integrating it into their
home-grown messenger app.
I haven't seen any indication from Apple that RCS messages won't be
supported in the Apple Messages app.
Did you read the opening post?
The OP's cite shows Apple said RCS would exist separate from iMessage.
All that matters is what Apple have stated, which from what I've seen
is: """“This will work alongside iMessage, which will continue to be the >> best and most secure messaging experience for Apple users.” """
This is the usual careful messaging from Apple and I decode it to mean
RCS will be integrated into the iMessage _app_
The app is not called "iMessage" - never has been. Apple was referring
to the iMessage service - not an app.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 15:06:41 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
Nothing in what you've said shows that you understand that is what it
is.
Any Internet server can do that if you're willing to always be logged
in.
Again you misconstrue the purpose of the login. While it is for the
server purpose as well it is also to assure that one person's devices
are authorized to talk to one another even if neither is currently
capable of talking to the iCloud servers.
Do you realize Android devices "securely talk to" a Windows PC WITHOUT needing the account that you need for Apple, eg using adb over Wi-Fi.
Why are you putting up with the requirement for an account that is not controlled by you but by Apple when you could do it all without that?
Alan Browne wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:22:46 -0500 :
You're looking for sinister where Apple are just making sure they and
their product clients have exclusive use of Apple lanes.
Why I state that it most likely means that as SMS/MMS are handled by
Message(app) on Apple devices currently, so will RCS - that is via the
phone network and not enjoy the "privilege" of using the iMessage
messaging system or other iCloud components.
Further (and they said such very plainly) they will not open iMessage to
3rd parties (beyond the existing and evolving API's).
So Apple reserve their lane and access the other lanes at will.
Both your arguments make more sense to me now that I've looked back at
every word Apple carefully said, so I will agree for now with you (pending finding out later next year what Apple releases in the iOS 18 beta).
The only part I object to is you think Apple is doing this out of their desire to help their customer but Tim Cook has said many times he'd never
do it so I have to believe Apple is doing this only because they have to.
I think you've convinced me though that there will be two channels of
sorts, one with iMessage through Apple servers and the other through the carrier (which is probably how it always should have been done).
You understood that inherently from the start better than I did. Thanks.
And I agree they said "very plainly" that they won't open up their
ecosystem to text-messaging competition so you're right about that too.
Thanks for helping me better understand.
On 2023-11-17 12:01, Theo wrote:
The politics here is that the GSMA may not be in favour of E2EE, because governments (and hence telcos) want their interception powers. Google
have gone it alone in terms of designing an E2EE extension for RCS
(based on Signal).
It may be that with Google and Apple both in favour of it, suddenly that will apply enough pressure on the GSMA to ratify the E2EE spec, perhaps as an 'option'. Then Apple and Google both happen to implement the 'optional' E2EE. Or the governments may apply pressure on the GSMA not to do so.
With E2EE it doesn't matter what a body in the middle wants you to do.
The only thing they can attempt to do is block encrypted traffic. And
learn (again) that such is not practical in the real world absent a dictatorship.
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