I also found some minor advantages to Android when it comes to Wi-Fi networks:
1. When entering the password on Android there's an option to display
the password. There is no such option on iOS.
2. They properly label the MAC address as "Randomized MAC address." On
my iPhone they just all it "Wi-Fi Address." Under the Privacy setting
they properly label the option as "Use randomized MAC (default). On my
iPhone it's labeled "Private Wi-Fi Address." I guess that Apple doesn't
want to confuse it's users with a technical term like MAC address.
It's not clear what that 24 hour implementation actually is, or if it
still exists.
If the 24 hour timer still exists then it's only if you connect or
reconnect to the same Wi-Fi network after 24 hours that the MAC address
is re-randomized.
I just tried it, on both iOS and Android, at work where we have four different Wi-Fi networks and it remembers the MAC address when you
switch back and forth between networks, without "re-randomizing." This
is for both iOS and Android.
Even forgetting a network then re-entering credentials, did not change
the randomized MAC address, nor did powering the device down then up
then reconnecting to the same network. I'll try on Wednesday morning
which will be more than 24 hours.
I also found some minor advantages to Android when it comes to Wi-Fi networks:
1. When entering the password on Android there's an option to display
the password. There is no such option on iOS. Yeah, this is minor but
when entering a password on the tiny on-screen keyboard, with big
fingers, it's nice to be able to check that you've entered it correctly.
I added this to the document as 224a on page 110, see <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JznrWfGJDA8CYVfjSnPTwfVy8-gAC0kPyaApuJTcUNE/#bookmark=id.2lpgrla975qp>
2. They properly label the MAC address as "Randomized MAC address." On
my iPhone they just all it "Wi-Fi Address." Under the Privacy setting
they properly label the option as "Use randomized MAC (default). On my
iPhone it's labeled "Private Wi-Fi Address." I guess that Apple doesn't
want to confuse it's users with a technical term like MAC address.
Also note what Apple calls "scanning" is called "probing" for Android. https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/wifi-mac-randomization
"Starting in Android 8.0, Android devices use randomized MAC addresses when probing for new networks while not currently associated with a network."
On May 23, 2023, Patron Saint wrote
(in article<news:u4hb7f$3phe4$1@novabbs.org>):
Also note what Apple calls "scanning" is called "probing" for Android.
https://source.android.com/docs/core/connect/wifi-mac-randomization
"Starting in Android 8.0, Android devices use randomized MAC addresses when >> probing for new networks while not currently associated with a network."
That sure looks like it says nospam, Jolly Roger & Bob Campbell were wrong.
Android 8.0 Oreo was released publicly on Aug. 21, 2017
iOS 14 was officially released on September 16, 2020
Android randomized mac address probing debuted 3 years before the iOS copy.
<https://blog.elevensoftware.com/hs-fs/hubfs/images/blog/mac-randomization-timeline.png>
iOS had this in 2014, 3 years BEFORE Android 8.
On 5/22/2023 3:40 PM, Patron Saint wrote:
<snip>
You are all excuses. No information.
Besides Apple adding it & then removing it over & over, Apple's 24-hour
implementation is just plain stupid - but it's still better than nothing.
It's not clear what that 24 hour implementation actually is, or if it
still exists.
If the 24 hour timer still exists then it's only if you connect or
reconnect to the same Wi-Fi network after 24 hours that the MAC address
is re-randomized.
I just tried it, on both iOS and Android, at work where we have four different Wi-Fi networks and it remembers the MAC address when you
switch back and forth between networks, without "re-randomizing." This
is for both iOS and Android.
Got it. iOS had scanning/probing first (by 3 years).
Then Android had persistent random macs upon connecting first (by 1 year). And Android got the non-persistent mac randomization on September 8, 2020.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I realize its not really a MAC address, but there are several IDs associated with the cellular connection. SEID, EID, IMEI, ICCID, MEID. A nice alphabet soup of numbers.
If I am web browsing/streaming music/whatever over the cellular connection, are any of these viewable/trackable by the sites I visit? Is
randomization needed/desirable here?
In article <fYqcnUE_lYKjJvH5nZ2dnZfqn_qdnZ2d@supernews.com>, Bob
Campbell <nunya@none.none> wrote:
I realize its not really a ³MAC address², but there are several IDs
associated with the cellular connection. SEID, EID, IMEI, ICCID, MEID. A >> nice alphabet soup of numbers.
If I am web browsing/streaming music/whatever over the cellular connection, >> are any of these viewable/trackable by the sites I visit? Is
³randomization² needed/desirable here?
your cell carrier can see those. apps can't access them thus websites
can't see them.
of course, there are many *other* ways you can be tracked.
It just
seemed ironic to me that everyone here is hyperventilating over the Wi-Fi connection, which is an optional connection.
I was just curious about the cellular connection, which is a permanent connection.
I would hope the iPhone doesn't scan/probe for Google so that all those traffic reports on Google's maps are only the Android cars, is that right?
I would hope the iPhone doesn't scan/probe for Google so that all those
traffic reports on Google's maps are only the Android cars, is that right?
why would any rational person hope for that?
You probably aren't aware of this either
but lately on Android, in order to
use Google Maps for direction navigation, you have to turn on Android
precise location using Google Location Services (afaik, the Android Google Maps will no longer allow gps-only approximate location" for routing).
I would hope the iPhone doesn't scan/probe for Google so that all those
traffic reports on Google's maps are only the Android cars, is that right?
why would any rational person hope for that?
"For devices running Android 11 or 12, users can enable non-persistent MAC randomization globally for all Wi-Fi networks (that have MAC randomization enabled) through the developer options screen. The option to enable non-persistent MAC randomization for all profiles is found at Settings > Developer Options > Wi-Fi non-persistent MAC randomization."
One key question to answer is whether iOS has both types of randomizations.
It would be nice to find a reference that explains why a set time period.
Any setting seems like a stupid way to do it if you can't change the time.
You probably aren't aware of this either
get off your high horse.
but lately on Android, in order to
use Google Maps for direction navigation, you have to turn on Android
precise location using Google Location Services (afaik, the Android Google >> Maps will no longer allow gps-only approximate location" for routing).
why would anyone want to use a *map* *app* with approximate location?
you're also moving the goalposts yet again. what a surprise.
rest of your bullshit snipped, as it's blatantly clear you haven't any
clue how any of this works, on android or ios.
It doesn't appear that iOS has that option but the "24 hour
re-randomization" kind of, partially, addresses the security issue. You
could also force randomization by doing a reset of network settings but
that would require that you re-enter all the Wi-Fi passwords.
You didn't have to prove that you have no idea how iOS location works with >> Google Maps. I already knew you had no idea how it works with Android.
i know far more about location services on both platforms, having
written several ios apps that use it and involved with the development
of their android counterparts.
you're also moving the goalposts yet again. what a surprise.
Plenty of other map apps work just fine with just GPS.
that wasn't your original claim, which was about traffic reports:
no, that wasn't the original question, and the only one hurling insults
is you.
further, statements such as that clearly demonstrate that you have no understanding whatsoever as to how location works on any platform.
but lately on Android, in order to
use Google Maps for direction navigation, you have to turn on Android
precise location using Google Location Services (afaik, the Android Google >> Maps will no longer allow gps-only approximate location" for routing).
why would anyone want to use a *map* *app* with approximate location?
You didn't have to prove that you have no idea how iOS location works with Google Maps. I already knew you had no idea how it works with Android.
you're also moving the goalposts yet again. what a surprise.
Plenty of other map apps work just fine with just GPS.
I would hope the iPhone doesn't scan/probe for Google so that all those traffic reports on Google's maps are only the Android cars, is that right?
rest of your bullshit snipped, as it's blatantly clear you haven't any
clue how any of this works, on android or ios.
The question is whether or not iOS Google Maps also recently requires the Wi-Fi scanning to be turned on and please do not even respond if all you're trying to do is hurl insults to hide that you have no idea how iOS works.
"For devices running Android 11 or 12, users can enable non-persistent MAC >> randomization globally for all Wi-Fi networks (that have MAC randomization >> enabled) through the developer options screen. The option to enable
non-persistent MAC randomization for all profiles is found at Settings >
Developer Options > Wi-Fi non-persistent MAC randomization."
Yes, I see that in Developer Options. See <https://i.imgur.com/wNTocTD.png>.
One key question to answer is whether iOS has both types of randomizations.
It doesn't appear that iOS has that option but the "24 hour
re-randomization" kind of, partially, addresses the security issue. You
could also force randomization by doing a reset of network settings but
that would require that you re-enter all the Wi-Fi passwords.
It would be nice to find a reference that explains why a set time period.
Any setting seems like a stupid way to do it if you can't change the time.
Android has a lot of options in settings, both in non-developer mode and developer mode, that iOS does not.
Apple feels that the end-user should
not be burdened with understanding those settings, which is
understandable.
What would be nice is a "developer options" setting on
the iPhone for those users that need more control, but that does not
appear to be likely.
I began adding this to the document as 225a on page 111 as "Superior MAC Address Randomization" see <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JznrWfGJDA8CYVfjSnPTwfVy8-gAC0kPyaApuJTcUNE/#bookmark=id.7001qt393uv6>.
On May 23, 2023, nospam wrote
(in article<news:230520231236504632%nospam@nospam.invalid>):
I would hope the iPhone doesn't scan/probe for Google so that all thosewhy would any rational person hope for that?
traffic reports on Google's maps are only the Android cars, is that right? >>
You probably aren't aware of this either but lately on Android, in order to use Google Maps for direction navigation, you have to turn on Android
precise location using Google Location Services (afaik, the Android Google Maps will no longer allow gps-only approximate location" for routing).
Why would you think that GPS-only is only "approximate location?" In
reality it's the other way around, Wi-Fi, mobile networks, and sensors
give you only an approximate location,
while GPS is accurate to 4-5
meters.
Wi-Fi is 15-45 meters.
Cell tower accuracy can be off by more
than 500 meters.
NFC sensors could be more accurate though.
Why would you think that GPS-only is only "approximate location?"
That's not me thinking that. It's nospam. GPS alone is fine for driving.
Hmm. I turned off precise location (called "Improve Location Accuracy"
by using Wi-Fi, mobile networks, and sensors) on my Pixel 7 Pro (running Android 13) and Google Maps still works for navigation. No nag screens.
Why would you think that GPS-only is only "approximate location?"
In
reality it's the other way around, Wi-Fi, mobile networks, and sensors
give you only an approximate location, while GPS is accurate to 4-5
meters. Wi-Fi is 15-45 meters. Cell tower accuracy can be off by more
than 500 meters. NFC sensors could be more accurate though.
Why do you hide behind a wall of insults because you had no idea that
Android Google Maps recently switched to requiring precise location when
the question was whether the iOS Google Maps made the same switch?
I can answer that for you since nospam is not familiar with how location services work on Android and iOS.
Unless I missed it, on iOS there is no separate option in Location
Services for GPS versus "GPS plus Wi-Fi, cell tower, and Bluetooth." You cannot use only the GPS when determining location.
I can answer that for you since nospam is not familiar with how location services work on Android and iOS.
Unless I missed it, on iOS there is no separate option in Location
Services for GPS versus "GPS plus Wi-Fi, cell tower, and Bluetooth." You cannot use only the GPS when determining location.
Here is a photo of screenshots from my iPhone 11 and my Pixel 7 Pro: <https://i.imgur.com/AkKioH2.jpeg>.
On my Pixel 7 Pro, running Android 13, it is not necessary to have
"Improve Location Accuracy" turned on in order for Google Maps
navigation to work. I am using version 11.79.0301, updated on May 10,
2023, which I believe is the latest version. What phone, and what
version of Android and Google Maps, are you using that requires you to
have this turned on?
So why would you ever want to turn off "Improve Location Accuracy?" on Android? First, there's no need for it when you're in a place where the satellite GPS works because the GPS gives you much greater accuracy than
cell towers, Wi-Fi, or Bluetooth. Second, it measurably reduces battery drain on Android.
I can't comment on iPhone since it's not possible to
prevent the device from using those other radios.
If you want Location Services to work, on Android, when you're deep
inside a building then you should turn on "Improve Location Accuracy," otherwise keep it off.
Interestingly, Android used to have a setting to
use only cell towers, Bluetooth, and Wi-Fi for Location Services,
turning off the GPS to reduce battery drain, but that does not appear to
be a standard feature of Android anymore.
I added this as 226a on page 112 of the document: "Ability to disable
the use of cell towers, Bluetooth, and Wi-Fi when determining location."
See <docs.google.com/document/d/1JznrWfGJDA8CYVfjSnPTwfVy8-gAC0kPyaApuJTcUNE/#bookmark=id.x2kgnof1c08p>
Why would you think that GPS-only is only "approximate location?"
That's not me thinking that. It's nospam. GPS alone is fine for driving.
you are lying again.
nobody said that.
You don't matter anymore because sms reported that iOS can't decouple the
GPS from the Wi-Fi & Bluetooth while Android has switches to decouple them.
Why would you think that GPS-only is only "approximate location?"
That's not me thinking that. It's nospam. GPS alone is fine for driving.
you are lying again.
nobody said that.
you are lying again.Why would you think that GPS-only is only "approximate location?"
That's not me thinking that. It's nospam. GPS alone is fine for driving. >>>
nobody said that.
You don't matter anymore because sms reported that iOS can't decouple the
GPS from the Wi-Fi & Bluetooth while Android has switches to decouple them.
you're moving the goalposts yet again, and further proving that neither
of you understand how any of it works.
Hmm. I turned off precise location (called "Improve Location Accuracy"
by using Wi-Fi, mobile networks, and sensors) on my Pixel 7 Pro (running Android 13) and Google Maps still works for navigation. No nag screens.
According to <https://www.antlabs.com/advisories/advisory-ios-14-and-android-10-how-do-randomized-mac-addresses-affect-your-network/>
the "24 hour" feature was only in some iOS 14 beta versions and was not present in the final release of iOS 14.
I'm not sure what the upside is of generating a new randomized MAC
address when reconnecting to a previously connected to Wi-Fi network.
Android does give you that option though. I suppose it does provide some additional anti-tracking security when reconnecting to public hotspots.
You repeatedly hid behind a wall of insults
I just tried it, on both iOS and Android, at work where we have four different Wi-Fi networks and it remembers the MAC address when you
switch back and forth between networks, without "re-randomizing." This
is for both iOS and Android.
If what you said is correct, iOS lacks the functionality that Android has
of being able to route with just GPS and not Wi-Fi or cell or Bluetooth.
I think you meant to ask why would you ever NOT want to turn off "Improve Location Accuracy", didn't you? GPS alone is good enough for driving.
I can't comment on iPhone since it's not possible to
prevent the device from using those other radios.
Thank you for letting me know the iPhone can't turn these off separately.
That's probably why nospam kept hiding behind layered walls of insults.
He didn't want to say that the iPhone isn't capable of turning them off.
I was asking if iOS Google Maps needed it turned on, but when you said iOS can't turn it off in iOS, that explains why nospam was hurling his insults.
If iOS can't decouple these from GPS, that's why nospam was hiding behind multiple walls of insults - he didn't want to say iOS can't decouple them.
You repeatedly hid behind a wall of insults
the only person with a 'wall of insults' is you
I just tried it, on both iOS and Android, at work where we have four
different Wi-Fi networks and it remembers the MAC address when you
switch back and forth between networks, without "re-randomizing." This
is for both iOS and Android.
It seems even the experts are unclear how it all works as shown in this 22-page "Analysis of MAC Randomization Schemes in Wi-Fi Clients" by Arista.
https://wifihelp.arista.com/post/analysis-of-mac-randomization-schemes-in-wifi-clients/?pdf=1551
At least they show their steps for how they tested iOS 14 & Android 11,
(but you'll likely be surprised what they say about the 24 hour period).
I suspect you aren't testing what I'm testing, so please check settings.
Make sure you are not logged into Google at any time you try this.
In Settings | Location | Location services, turn everything off.
Specifically make sure three things are off that are important.
Google Location Accuracy
Wi-Fi scanning
Bluetooth scanning
Then go to Settings | Location | App permissions & find "Maps."
Make sure the only setting turned on is "Allow only while using this app." Specifically make sure "Use precise location" is definitely turned off!
Even forgetting a network then re-entering credentials, did not change
the randomized MAC address, nor did powering the device down then up
then reconnecting to the same network. I'll try on Wednesday morning
which will be more than 24 hours.
Even forgetting a network then re-entering credentials, did not change
the randomized MAC address, nor did powering the device down then up
then reconnecting to the same network. I'll try on Wednesday morning
which will be more than 24 hours.
After 24 hours, with the iPhone powered-off then powered on, one of the
MAC addresses on one Wi-Fi network remained the same, and one of the MAC addresses on another Wi-Fi network changed. Doubt if it is relevant but
the one that remained the same was on a 2.4GHz network and the one that changed was on a 5GHz network.
On the Pixel 7 Pro, also powered off then on, both MAC addresses
remained the same after 24 hours.
I'll write both MAC addresses here so that I can check in 24 hours. 06:1c:1d:9d:2f:c7 is the MAC address assigned to the 5GHz connection. 3a:b3:b5:47:bf:02 is the MAC address assigned to the 2.4GHz connection.
Any other (easy!) tests requested?
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 297 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 09:40:56 |
| Calls: | 6,666 |
| Files: | 12,213 |
| Messages: | 5,336,274 |
