• 50 years ago, CP/M started the microcomputer revolution

    From internetado@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 11 18:38:37 2024
    To: comp.misc
    CP/M is turning 50 this year.

    The ancient Control Program for Microcomputers, or CP/M for short, has
    been enjoying a modest renaissance in recent years. By 21st century
    standards, it's unimaginably tiny and simple. The whole OS fits into
    under 200 kB, and the resident bit of the kernel is only about 3 kB.
    Today, in the era of end-user OSes in the tens-of-gigabytes size range,
    this exerts a fascination to a certain kind of hobbyist. Back when it
    was new, though, this wasn't minimalist - it was all that early
    hardware could support.
    Liam Proven

    I'm a little too young to have experienced CP/M as anything other than
    a retro platform - I'm from 1984, and we got our first computer in 1990
    or so - but its importance and influence cannot be overstated. Many of
    the conventions set by CP/M made their way to the various DOS variants,
    and in turn, we still see some of those conventions in Windows today.
    Had Digital Research, the company CP/M creator Gary Kildall set up to
    sell CP/M, accepted the deal with IBM to make CP/M the default
    operating system for the then newly-created IBM PC, we'd be living in a
    very different world today.

    Digital Research would also create several other popular and/or
    influential software products beyond CP/M, such as DR DOS and GEM, as
    well as various other DOS variants and CP/M versions with DOS
    compatibility. It would eventually be acquired by Novell, where it
    faded into obscurity.

    https://www.osnews.com/story/140419/50-years-ago-cp-m-started-the-microcomputer-revolution/
    --

    Internetado.
    bbs.alt119.net

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From yeti@21:1/5 to internetado on Mon Aug 12 11:51:32 2024
    "internetado" <internetado@fanless.alt119.net> writes:

    Had Digital Research, the company CP/M
    creator Gary Kildall set up to sell CP/M, accepted the deal with IBM
    to make CP/M the default operating system for the then newly-created
    IBM PC, we'd be living in a very different world today.

    CP/M was reimplemented by Seattle Computer Products as "Quick and Dirty Operation System"[0] and later Microsoft bought it and stripped the
    "Quick and" and kept DOS as name. Shouldn't that once and forever
    explain how to read the "D" of "DOS"? o;-)

    I used CP/M-Z80 for a while and when MSDOS appeared, I avoided it for a
    long time, but when I finally had to do some stuff on it, I immediately
    felt kind of at home due to the similar structure of the OS function
    calls. That felt strange. Maybe even a bit shady.

    ____________

    0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_and_Dirty_Operating_System

    --
    I do not bite, I just want to play.

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  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to yeti@tilde.institute on Mon Aug 12 15:03:21 2024
    yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> wrote:
    "internetado" <internetado@fanless.alt119.net> writes:

    Had Digital Research, the company CP/M
    creator Gary Kildall set up to sell CP/M, accepted the deal with IBM
    to make CP/M the default operating system for the then newly-created
    IBM PC, we'd be living in a very different world today.

    You could get CP/M-86 with the PC for a small fee, or PC-DOS for free,
    or a couple other options including the UCSD P-System. Most people got
    MS-DOS because they didn't have a need or know about the software available already for CP/M-86. Note that what was available for CP/M-86 was a tiny fraction of what was available for CP/M 2.2 on the 8080, even if it was a
    lot more than was available for CP/M-68K.

    CP/M was reimplemented by Seattle Computer Products as "Quick and Dirty >Operation System"[0] and later Microsoft bought it and stripped the
    "Quick and" and kept DOS as name. Shouldn't that once and forever
    explain how to read the "D" of "DOS"? o;-)

    I wouldn't call Q-DOS and the later PC-DOS reimplementations of CP/M.
    The user interface was more or less modelled on CP/M but with a lot of important things done wrong because the people who did it didn't really understand CP/M and because engineers shouldn't write code.

    It does have lineage from CP/M but less than the lineage CP/M has from
    RT-11. Notice that you use the PIP command to copy files in CP/M like
    in RT-11 while PC-DOS introduces COPY, for instance.

    I used CP/M-Z80 for a while and when MSDOS appeared, I avoided it for a
    long time, but when I finally had to do some stuff on it, I immediately
    felt kind of at home due to the similar structure of the OS function
    calls. That felt strange. Maybe even a bit shady.

    It's less like RT-11, sadly. And the memory map is very strange to someone used to writing CP-M 2.2 code.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bob Eager@21:1/5 to Scott Dorsey on Mon Aug 12 15:18:11 2024
    On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 15:03:21 +0000, Scott Dorsey wrote:

    yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> wrote:
    "internetado" <internetado@fanless.alt119.net> writes:

    Had Digital Research, the company CP/M creator Gary Kildall set up to
    sell CP/M, accepted the deal with IBM to make CP/M the default
    operating system for the then newly-created IBM PC, we'd be living in
    a very different world today.

    You could get CP/M-86 with the PC for a small fee, or PC-DOS for free,

    PC DOS was charged for by IBM, as I remember. Most other vendors bundled
    MS-DOS (which was slightly different)



    --
    Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

    Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
    http://www.mirrorservice.org

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  • From D@21:1/5 to The Real Bev on Mon Aug 12 17:12:55 2024
    On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 08:24:46 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote: >On 8/11/24 2:38 PM, internetado wrote:
    Digital Research would also create several other popular and/or
    influential software products beyond CP/M, such as DR DOS and GEM, as
    well as various other DOS variants and CP/M versions with DOS
    compatibility. It would eventually be acquired by Novell, where it
    faded into obscurity.
    https://www.osnews.com/story/140419/50-years-ago-cp-m-started-the-microcomputer-revolution/

    Nobody ever mentions GEM! I used Ventura Publisher under GEM -- an
    expensive and unweildy piece of software which produced excellent
    results once you beat it into submission and never tried to make it do >anything it really didn't want to do.
    I didn't know that GEM was a Kildall thing. Novell seemed to be as good
    at killing things as Microsoft is at stealing them.

    couldn't recall "gem" . . .

    (using Tor Browser 13.5.2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEM_(desktop_environment)
    GEM (for Graphics Environment Manager[2]) is a discontinued operating >environment released by Digital Research in 1985. GEM is known primarily
    as the native graphical user interface of the Atari ST series of computers, >providing a WIMP desktop. It was also available for IBM PC compatibles
    [3][4] and shipped with some models from Amstrad. GEM is used as the core
    for some commercial MS-DOS programs, the most notable being Ventura >Publisher. It was ported to other computers that previously lacked
    graphical interfaces, but never gained traction. The final retail version
    of GEM was released in 1988.
    Digital Research later produced X/GEM for their FlexOS[3][5] real-time >operating system with adaptations for OS/2 Presentation Manager[6][3] and
    the X Window System under preparation as well.[3]
    [end quote]

    but i did use ventura publisher extensively back in the day . . .

    (using Tor Browser 13.5.2) https://archive.org/details/xerox-ventura-publisher-4.1-for-windows-4.1-1992-10-english-3.5-1.44-mb
    Xerox Ventura Publisher 4.1 For Windows
    by Xerox
    Publication date 1992
    Topics Xerox, Ventura, Publisher, Corel
    Language English
    Xerox Ventura Publisher 4.1 For Windows ( 4.1) ( 1992 10) [ English]
    ( 3.5'' 1.44 MB)
    Addeddate 2020-08-01 13:03:00
    Identifier xerox-ventura-publisher-4.1-for-windows-4.1-1992-10-
    english-3.5-1.44-mb
    Scanner Internet Archive HTML5 Uploader 1.6.4
    There are no reviews yet. Be the first one to write a review.
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    ZIP FILES
    Media Scans.zip 43.0M >https://archive.org/download/xerox-ventura-publisher-4.1-for-windows-4.1-1992-10-english-3.5-1.44-mb/Media%20Scans.zip
    Xerox Ventura Publisher 4.1 for Windows (4.1)
    (1992-10) [English] (3.5''-1.44MB).zip 5.7M >https://archive.org/download/xerox-ventura-publisher-4.1-for-windows-4.1-1992-10-english-3.5-1.44-mb/Xerox%20Ventura%20Publisher%204.1%20for%20Windows%20%284.1%29%20%281992-10%29%20%5BEnglish%5D%20%283.5%27%27-1.44MB%29.zip
    Xerox Ventura Publisher 4.1 for Windows (4.1) (1992-10) [English] (3.5''-1.44MB).zip
    / 5.67 MB, extracted folder . . .
    Xerox Ventura Publisher 4.1 for Windows (4.1) (1992-10) [English] (3.5''-1.44MB)
    / 8.01 MB, 7 Files, 3 Folders
    disk1.img
    \APP
    \DAN
    \DEU
    \ENG
    \ESP
    \FRA
    \ITA
    \NED
    \NOR
    \POR
    \SVE
    B
    CMYKPROC.TX_
    CMYKSPOT.TX_
    DEFAULT.ST_
    DIALOG3D.DLL
    DITHER.VP
    HPGL.BF_
    LZEXPAND.DLL
    MUSCROLL.DLL
    PALETTE.HL_
    PARAMS.PP_
    PCTTOGEM.CN_
    README.TXT
    RGBPROC.TX_
    RGBSPOT.TX_
    SETUP.EXE
    SETUP2.EXE
    SPLDICT.PD
    VER.DLL
    VPWIN.EX_
    VPWIN.ME_
    VPWIN.MS_
    WFNTLOOK.UP
    WHM_ENG.WH_
    WVENT72.FO_
    WVENT96.FO_
    disk2.img
    &BOOK-P1.CA_
    &BOOK-P1.CH_
    ... (*.*_)
    WWSUK.WL_
    WXYWRITE.WL_
    disk3.img
    \PFM
    \UTILITY
    DANSK.WH_
    DEUTSCH.WH_
    ... (*.*_)
    WINHELP.HL_
    WUENGLSH.WH_
    disk4.img
    \NFILTERS
    COMMDLG.DL_
    DDEML.DL_
    ... (*.*_)
    VSEPS.DL_
    VSEPS.HL_

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From mm0fmf@21:1/5 to The Real Bev on Mon Aug 12 21:45:02 2024
    On 12/08/2024 18:04, The Real Bev wrote:

    As I recall, when you executed Ventura (from a floppy, of course) it
    first brought up GEM.  That was the only time I ever saw it.  I used VP first in 1988 or 89, and then at a different job in 1991.  Before
    Windows 3.0 in 1990, according to Gemini. Must have been MSDOS...



    GEM was DR's Graphics Environment Manager and was available for x86 and
    also ran on the Atari ST. It was a total dog, at least on the Atari. I
    had the misfortune to have to write software for it on the ST a long
    time back. I'm trying to suppress the nightmares returning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to The Real Bev on Mon Aug 12 21:53:06 2024
    On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 10:04:28 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote: >On 8/12/24 9:12 AM, D wrote:
    snip
    but i did use ventura publisher extensively back in the day . . .
    (using Tor Browser 13.5.2)
    https://archive.org/details/xerox-ventura-publisher-4.1-for-windows-4.1-1992-10-english-3.5-1.44-mb
    Xerox Ventura Publisher 4.1 For Windows
    by Xerox
    Publication date 1992 ...

    As I recall, when you executed Ventura (from a floppy, of course) it
    first brought up GEM. That was the only time I ever saw it. I used VP
    first in 1988 or 89, and then at a different job in 1991. Before
    Windows 3.0 in 1990, according to Gemini. Must have been MSDOS...

    for me it was back in the mid-80s when most computer users at a local
    newspaper office in the denver area were using compaq/xt/286/mac, etc.
    there could've been a gem logo when starting ventura publisher, but i
    just don't recall; i do somewhat remember testing those archived 1992
    vp "4.1" disks in dosbox (0.74-3) about ten months ago, but even then
    i don't recall if any gem logo appeared for sure ... i suspect it did;
    aldus pagemaker was my favorite, others preferred quarkxpress, but it
    was wordstar and later wordperfect where most of the work i was doing
    took place . . . (these articles are handy so i'm posting them again): _______________________________________________________________________________ https://winworldpc.com/product/wordstar/300
    WordStar 3.00
    WordStar, originally from MicroPro, was a popular word processor during the >early 80s. It was ported to a number of CP/M architectures as well as Unix >and PC/MS-DOS. It competed directly against many word processors, including >WordPerfect, Microsoft Word for DOS, and Multimate. By the late 80s most >business word processing had moved to WordPerfect. In the early 90s, Microsoft >Word for Windows took over.
    Also see a history of WordStar: A Potted History of WordStar and some earlier >0.x versions at The WordStar Collection
    Wanted: Pre-1.0 versions were sold publicly. WordStar 0.87 redump, WordStar >0.89, WordStar 0.91, WordStar 0.92, (Google results indicate these existed) >WordStar 1.0. Early WordStar 2.0 releases were reported to be copy protected. >Available releases
    0.x/1.x
    2.x
    3.00 (current)
    3.30
    for PCjr
    2000
    4.0
    1512
    5.0
    COLT
    5.5
    6
    1.5 for Windows
    7
    2.0 for Windows
    Release notes
    Wanted: Wordstar 3.00 for PC/MS-DOS. Reportedly 3.0 was the first version available for DOS.
    Information
    Product type
    Application Word Processor
    Vendor
    MicroPro
    Release date
    1982
    Minimum CPU
    Z80
    User interface
    Text
    Platform
    CPM
    Download count
    35 (1 for release)
    Downloads
    Download name Version Language Architecture File size Downloads
    WordStar 3.00 for CPM Manuals 3.00 for CPM English [Z80] 17.19MB 1
    WordStar 3.00 for CPM-80 (files) 3.00 for CPM-80 English [Z80] 189.76KB 0
    https://winworldpc.com/download/08c3841f-c383-c398-c2b3-11c3a5c28f13 https://winworldpc.com/download/08c3841f-c383-c398-c2b3-11c3a5c28f13/from/c3ae6ee2-8099-713d-3411-c3a6e280947e
    ("WordStar 3.00 for CPM-80 (files).7z" ; 188 KB / 192,512 bytes)
    WordStar 3.01 for CPM-80 (1982) (5.25-DSQD) 3.01 for CPM-80 English [Z80] 11.05MB 0
    https://winworldpc.com/download/348b9ab2-df7d-11ec-8dc3-0200008a0da4 https://winworldpc.com/download/348b9ab2-df7d-11ec-8dc3-0200008a0da4/from/c3ae6ee2-8099-713d-3411-c3a6e280947e
    ("WordStar 3.01 for CPM-80 (1982) (5.25-DSQD).7z" ; 10.5 MB / 11,055,104 bytes)
    WordStar 3.01 for CPM-80 Manuals (1982) 3.01 for CPM-80 English [Z80] 145.37MB 0
    Comments _______________________________________________________________________________ https://archive.org/details/WordPerfect5.1.1989-11-06
    WordPerfect 5.1 (1989-11-06)
    by WordPerfect
    Publication date 1989-11-06
    Usage Public Domain Mark 1.0 Creative Commons License publicdomain
    Topics WordPerfect, MS-DOS, Word Perfect, WordPerfect 5.1, Word Perfect 5.1, DOS
    Language English
    WordPerfect 5.1 for MS-DOS (11-06-89) (5.25 inch floppy)
    WordPerfect 5.1 for MS-DOS was first released on November 6, 1989. It was followed
    by numerous minor 5.1 updates, indicated by the file date stamps.
    This was the most popular and widely used version of the WordPerfect product. >WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS adds drop-down menus, context sensitive help, tables, an
    equation editor, and spreadsheet handling.
    A stripped-down lightweight version of WordPerfect 5.1 was sold as LetterPerfect.
    The program was originally developed under contract at Brigham Young University
    for use on a Data General minicomputer in 1979. The authors retained the rights to
    the program, forming Satellite Systems International (SSI) to sell it under the
    name WordPerfect in 1980. A port to MS-DOS followed in 1982 and several greatly
    updated versions quickly followed. The application's feature list was considerably
    more advanced than contemporary MS-DOS applications like WordStar, and it rapidly
    displaced most other systems, especially after the 4.2 release in 1986. By release
    5.1 in 1989, WordPerfect had become a standard in the MS-DOS market. >Addeddate 2017-03-12 19:10:38
    Identifier WordPerfect5.1.1989-11-06
    Scanner Internet Archive HTML5 Uploader 1.6.3
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    7Z 1 file >https://archive.org/download/WordPerfect5.1.1989-11-06/WordPerfect%205.1%20%2811-06-89%29%20%285.25%29.7z
    TORRENT 1 file >https://archive.org/download/WordPerfect5.1.1989-11-06/WordPerfect5.1.1989-11-06_archive.torrent
    WordPerfect 5.1 (11-06-89) (5.25).7z / 3.98 MB, extracted folder . . . WordPerfect 5.1 (11-06-89) (5.25) / 5.74 MB / 15 Files, 0 Folders D1_Install1.img
    README.UTL
    INSTALL.EXE
    UPDATE.INS
    LEARN.SPN
    LEARN.S01
    D2_Install2.img
    LEARN.S02
    D3_Program1.img
    README.WP
    UPDATE.INS
    WP.SPN
    WP.S01
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    WP.S02
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    UPDATE.INS
    PTR.SPN
    PTR.S01
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    PTR.S02
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    INSTALL.LST
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    D11_Printer3.img
    WPR1.S03
    Graphics1.img
    1.BAT
    ABACUS.WPG
    ... (*.WPG)
    ICECREAM.WPG
    LIST.COM
    README.DOC
    Graphics2.img
    1.BAT
    1913FORD.WPG
    3_5DISK.WPG
    5_25DISK.WPG
    DL.COM
    JAG.WPG
    ... (*.WPG)
    XMASTREE.WPG
    `89TBIRD.WPG
    Graphics3.img
    README.BAT
    INSTALL.BAT
    PICTURES.EXE
    winworldpc.com.txt _______________________________________________________________________________ https://archive.org/details/word-perfect-5.2-for-windows-5.2-1993-04-english-3.5-1.44-mb
    by WordPerfect
    Publication date 1993-04
    Topics WordPerfect, 5.2, Corel
    Language English
    WordPerfect 5.2 For Windows ( 5.2) ( 1993 04) [ English] ( 3.5'' 1.44 MB)
    Two incredible resources for WordPerfect can be found online at: >WPUniverse.com - an independent and active community dedicated to WordPerfect >and WordPerfect Office products like Quattro Pro, Presentations, Paradox, etc. >WPDos.org - an amazing site for fans of the older versions of WordPerfect for >DOS and Windows. The site has numerous well-written and thorough tutorials >for installing WordPerfect for DOS on modern Windows and Mac computers. >Addeddate 2020-11-24 11:53:53
    Identifier word-perfect-5.2-for-windows-5.2-1993-04-english-3.5-1.44-mb >Scanner Internet Archive HTML5 Uploader 1.6.4
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    WordPerfect 5.2 for Windows (5.2) (1993-04) [English] (3.5''-1.44MB).zip
    / 8.70 MB, extracted folder . . .
    WordPerfect 5.2 for Windows (5.2) (1993-04) [English] (3.5''-1.44MB)
    / 10.6 MB, 9 Files, 1 Folders
    atm.img
    ATM.CNF
    ATM16.DLL
    ATM32.DLL
    ATMCNTRL.EXE
    ATMSYS.DRV
    INSTALL.CNF
    INSTALL.EXE
    PROGDISK
    PSFONTS
    WPBD____.PFB
    WPBD____.PFM
    WPBE____.PFB
    WPBE____.PFM
    WPBR____.PFB
    WPBR____.PFM
    WPCE____.PFB
    WPCE____.PFM
    WPCP____.PFB
    WPCP____.PFM
    WPCS____.PFB
    WPCS____.PFM
    WPEU____.PFB
    WPEU____.PFM
    WPHO____.PFB
    WPHO____.PFM
    WPMH____.PFB
    WPMH____.PFM
    WPOE____.PFB
    WPOE____.PFM
    WPOT____.PFB
    WPOT____.PFM
    WPST____.PFB
    WPST____.PFM
    README.TXT
    faxdirect.img
    DSK9555-.1
    EXPCOMM.DRV
    EXPVCD.386
    FAXDIR.S01
    FAXDIR.SPN
    INSTALL.DAT
    INSTALL.EXE
    README.LCN
    README.TXT
    gramm5.img
    BITMAPS
    GWARC1
    GWARC2
    INSTALL.EX$
    INSTALL.EXE
    INSTALL.INS
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    program1.img
    INSTALL.DAT
    INSTALL.EXE
    INSTALL.LST
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    program2.img
    WP.S02
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    WP.S03
    program4.img
    WP.S04
    program5.img
    WP.S05

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Real Bev on Mon Aug 12 23:12:17 2024
    On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 08:24:46 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    I didn't know that GEM was a Kildall thing. Novell seemed to be as good
    at killing things as Microsoft is at stealing them.

    Part of the blame has to go to Apple. Back then, they were very jealous of other companies trying to do GUIs that looked even remotely like the
    Macintosh in any way, shape or form. They sic’d their lawyers onto DR
    because GEM had, of all things, pull-down menus.

    Finally Kildall was able to appease the Apple hounds by having the menus
    simply fall down when you moused over them.

    (Yeah, I was an Apple Mac fan(atic) back then.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to yeti on Mon Aug 12 23:09:42 2024
    On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 11:51:32 +0042, yeti wrote:

    Shouldn't that once and forever explain how to read the "D" of "DOS"?

    There have been umpteen different OSes called “DOS” or variations thereon, over the last sixty, maybe getting on to seventy years. The name “DOS” is as old as hard drives. In fact, it was intended to distinguish OSes that
    had adopted hard drives.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Real Bev on Tue Aug 13 21:51:35 2024
    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:40:55 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    A curious WP thing: I temped for some title insurance people for a few weeks. They had a system where knowledgeable people would fill in
    (pencil) a template with codes indicating various descriptions etc. for
    the drones to type in. After a while I (a drone) realized that the
    whole system was done with Word Perfect macro codes, a pretty slick application.

    So they were reinventing the kind of thing that typesetting markup systems (troff/groff, TEX, SGML) have been doing for decades.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to The Real Bev on Wed Aug 14 05:41:15 2024
    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 21:47:14 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    On 8/13/24 2:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:40:55 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    A curious WP thing: I temped for some title insurance people for a
    few weeks. They had a system where knowledgeable people would fill in
    (pencil) a template with codes indicating various descriptions etc.
    for the drones to type in. After a while I (a drone) realized that
    the whole system was done with Word Perfect macro codes, a pretty
    slick application.

    So they were reinventing the kind of thing that typesetting markup
    systems (troff/groff, TEX, SGML) have been doing for decades.

    Possibly, but these were generating legal documents with a lot of
    legalisms of various sorts and combinations, not just making pretty documents.

    One of the groundbreaking features of troff was its ability to do line numbering -- rather important in legal documents such as patent
    applications.

    That was likely crucial in getting the Bell Labs crew the funding from the higher-ups at AT&T to develop Unix.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Johanne Fairchild@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Aug 14 13:34:24 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 21:47:14 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    On 8/13/24 2:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:40:55 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    A curious WP thing: I temped for some title insurance people for a
    few weeks. They had a system where knowledgeable people would fill in
    (pencil) a template with codes indicating various descriptions etc.
    for the drones to type in. After a while I (a drone) realized that
    the whole system was done with Word Perfect macro codes, a pretty
    slick application.

    So they were reinventing the kind of thing that typesetting markup
    systems (troff/groff, TEX, SGML) have been doing for decades.

    Possibly, but these were generating legal documents with a lot of
    legalisms of various sorts and combinations, not just making pretty
    documents.

    One of the groundbreaking features of troff was its ability to do line numbering -- rather important in legal documents such as patent
    applications.

    That was likely crucial in getting the Bell Labs crew the funding from the higher-ups at AT&T to develop Unix.

    Thanks for sharing that. Can you give me a historical reference about
    that? I'd like to read it. Thank you!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rich@21:1/5 to Johanne Fairchild on Wed Aug 14 19:58:23 2024
    Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 21:47:14 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    On 8/13/24 2:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:40:55 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

    A curious WP thing: I temped for some title insurance people for a
    few weeks. They had a system where knowledgeable people would fill in >>>>> (pencil) a template with codes indicating various descriptions etc.
    for the drones to type in. After a while I (a drone) realized that
    the whole system was done with Word Perfect macro codes, a pretty
    slick application.

    So they were reinventing the kind of thing that typesetting markup
    systems (troff/groff, TEX, SGML) have been doing for decades.

    Possibly, but these were generating legal documents with a lot of
    legalisms of various sorts and combinations, not just making pretty
    documents.

    One of the groundbreaking features of troff was its ability to do line
    numbering -- rather important in legal documents such as patent
    applications.

    That was likely crucial in getting the Bell Labs crew the funding from the >> higher-ups at AT&T to develop Unix.

    Thanks for sharing that. Can you give me a historical reference about
    that? I'd like to read it. Thank you!

    Search for "patent" in these two pages, you'll get some info:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Unix

    https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix

    Feel free to also read the remainder of each if you so choose.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)