• Re: If you were to design a netnews protocol today...

    From Michael =?ISO-8859-1?Q?B=E4uerle?=@21:1/5 to George Musk on Wed Aug 7 18:03:48 2024
    George Musk wrote:

    Just a thought experiment:
    if you could/had to make something like a NNTP 2.0 (with no need for backwards compatibility) and server and client software for it today, what would it be like?
    In terms of specifications, technologies used, user interface, etc.

    Some of the problems with the current Usenet:

    1) Transport protocol
    NNTP (RFC 3977) does not support notification if something interesting
    becomes available.

    2) Transported data
    The article format (RFC 5536) is very complicated.
    But it supports embedding audio and video (with MIME).
    And flowed text is possible (RFC 3676).

    3) User interface
    User interfaces for mobile devices are rare.

    4) General
    Moderation is absent or complicated.


    Because progress with anything related to Usenet is extremely slow,
    it is likely not a good idea to come up with something incompatible.

    Incompatible protocols like ActivityPub already exist.
    They have not replaced Usenet (and likely will not do in the future).


    [Xpost reduced]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to George Musk on Wed Aug 7 17:23:08 2024
    On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 14:32:01 -0000 (UTC), George Musk <grgmusk@skiff.com> wrote: >Just a thought experiment:
    if you could/had to make something like a NNTP 2.0 (with no need for >backwards compatibility) and server and client software for it today, what >would it be like?
    In terms of specifications, technologies used, user interface, etc.

    don't know? this seems like a question for nntp server administrators,
    nntp software programmers, professional and amateur usenet veterans...

    https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/software/inn/
    ...
    news.software.nntp

    i'm still using 40tude dialog with hamster scoring; this oldie still
    works better than anything else out there; e.g., scoring cross-posts:

    [*]
    =-100 Xpost %>1
    =-200 Xpost %>2
    =-300 Xpost %>3
    = etc.

    most newsreaders provide some means of scoring or filtering articles
    in newsgroups by analyzing message header fields, e.g. from, subject, message-id, references, injection-info, xpost, path, etc., and where
    text strings are found matching that newsreader's user-defined rules,
    scoring and actions are applied; 40tude dialog's help "scoring rules":

    40tude Dialog > Help[F1] > Index > Scoring Rules > Scoring/Actions Syntax >Scoring and actions is one of Dialog's most powerful features. The syntax
    and actually most of the code is from Jurgen Haible's excellent local mail- >and newsserver Hamster.
    What is Scoring?
    Scoring is the process of assigning a number between -9999 and +9999 to a >message by applying scoring rules to the message. A scoring rule usually >analyzes one header field of the message and if it this header field matches >a certain text, a score value is assigned. For example, you can create a >scoring rule that assign the highest score value +9999 to all messages that >have your email address in the From header field, so that your messages >always receive a score of +9999.
    The score value is shown in the header list in green for positive scores
    and in red for negative scores:
    Note that the list of headers can be sorted by score (with or without >threading), so scoring can be used to visually organize and separate >important from unimportant messages.
    ...
    Usenet articles are scored twice in Dialog. When you get headers in a
    group the scoring rules are applied to the available, limited number of >headers, however when you retrieve the complete body of the message, the >message is scored again and this time all headers can be scored.
    The scoring and action rules are stored together in one file, the score
    file, which you can access by selecting Settings, Scoring and actions
    from Dialog's main menu.
    [end quoted excerpt]

    40tude Dialog v2.0.15.1 (2005-2-7): https://www.barghahn-online.de/4td_faq/download.php https://www.barghahn-online.de/4td_faq/download/4d2b38.exe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu Aug 8 04:31:08 2024
    On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 01:29:26 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    You could just use something like Mastodon, and move to the Fediverse.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pentagon+fediverse+logo

    "Speak. Great power to control... dominate. Speak. Impressive. They can make
    planets. Oh, yes. New cities, homes in the country, your woman at your side,
    children playing at your feet, and overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the
    flag of the Federation."--Kruge, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock(c)1984

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Thu Aug 8 13:41:35 2024
    On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:32:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:52:14 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 8/7/24 20:29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    You could just use something like Mastodon, and move to the Fediverse.

    Mastodon / Fediverse isn't feature compatible.

    It isn't limitation-compatible or bug-compatible either. It's a complete >rethinking of the way distributed social media is supposed to work.

    social media is moderated; unmoderated newsgroups are unmoderated

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From D@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Thu Aug 8 14:16:36 2024
    On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 09:39:00 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
    On 2024-08-08, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 8/7/24 20:29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    You could just use something like Mastodon, and move to the Fediverse.
    Mastodon / Fediverse isn't feature compatible. Not the least of which
    is that Usenet servers are local copies of things posted to servers.
    Every time I look at it, I get the feeling that mastodon/fediverse is a
    half thought-out "hey wouldn't it be cool if ... " type thing that only
    came about because people think "The Web" is synonymous with "The
    Internet".
    Or maybe it's just the marketing-speak on their websites ...
    [...]
    It's relatively easy to link two disconnected NNTP networks with
    something like a mag' tape in a station wagon. You can't do that with
    very many networking technologies.

    Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tape
    hurtling down the freeway :)
    (or however that went)

    uncensored plain text communications made public en masse by means
    of unmoderated usenet nntp newsgroups is relatively primitive like
    a well-seasoned cast iron skillet...if it ain't broke don't fix it

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 8 23:54:04 2024
    On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 13:41:35 +0100, D wrote:

    On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:32:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:52:14 -0500, Grant Taylor wrote:
    On 8/7/24 20:29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    You could just use something like Mastodon, and move to the
    Fediverse.

    Mastodon / Fediverse isn't feature compatible.

    It isn't limitation-compatible or bug-compatible either. It's a complete >>rethinking of the way distributed social media is supposed to work.

    social media is moderated; unmoderated newsgroups are unmoderated

    You mean “moderated social media is moderated”?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Eager@21:1/5 to Rich on Sat Aug 10 16:51:51 2024
    On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 15:05:40 +0000, Rich wrote:

    In comp.misc Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
    On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 19:13:00 +0100, Richard Kettlewell wrote:

    I mean something like ASN.1 ...

    Bloody hell.

    Where’s the garlic ...

    Gentle reminder of the full text:

    | I mean something like ASN.1 (although not ASN.1; far more complex |
    than necessary).

    ASN.1 is given as an example because it’s a well-known example of an
    interface definition language, not because I’m suggesting using it, as
    anyone capable of reading to the end of a sentence can tell.

    Do note you are respondig to Lawrence. He exists soley to create
    turmoil and strife. So if halting his reading comprehension at the
    first part of your sentence would generate maximum turmoil and strife,
    then that is just exactly what he will do.

    I agree. He is best killfiled.



    --
    Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

    Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
    http://www.mirrorservice.org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 28 16:41:36 2024
    Michael Bauerle:

    NNTP (RFC 3977) does not support notification if something
    interesting becomes available.

    Can't we consider it an advantage, a natural limit to the
    monkey mind, facilitating better focus?

    --
    () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
    /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael =?ISO-8859-1?Q?B=E4uerle?=@21:1/5 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Aug 28 17:04:14 2024
    Anton Shepelev wrote:
    Michael Bauerle:

    NNTP (RFC 3977) does not support notification if something
    interesting becomes available.

    Can't we consider it an advantage, a natural limit to the
    monkey mind, facilitating better focus?

    Personally I seldom miss this feature. Setting a short poll interval,
    e.g. five minutes is normally good enough.

    But likely there are people with different opinion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Spencer@21:1/5 to Anton Shepelev on Wed Aug 28 17:55:55 2024
    Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> writes:

    Chris Hennessy (chenness@enterprise.powerup.com.au) wrote:

    The brothers Usas and Senda, despairing of the state of UseNet, went
    unto the mountain at the feet of Net.God. "Oh Net.God, there is
    confusion and sorrow in your place of UseNet. The people worship false
    gods and knowst not your will."

    Interesting to note that top-posting wasn't mentioned by Net.God in
    His commandments.

    --
    Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From candycanearter07@21:1/5 to snipeco.2@gmail.com on Wed Aug 28 22:40:03 2024
    Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote at 21:04 this Wednesday (GMT):
    Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

    Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> writes:

    Chris Hennessy (chenness@enterprise.powerup.com.au) wrote:

    The brothers Usas and Senda, despairing of the state of UseNet, went
    unto the mountain at the feet of Net.God. "Oh Net.God, there is
    confusion and sorrow in your place of UseNet. The people worship false
    gods and knowst not your will."


    Interesting to note that top-posting wasn't mentioned by Net.God in
    His commandments.


    I guess that the Commandments predate the deplorable appearance of
    Outlook Excrete. It was that email prog. being pressed into service on Usenet that brought the execrable email habit of top posting to Usenet.


    Of course it was MS.
    --
    user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 13:12:18 2024
    XPost: alt.english.usage

    [X-posing to alt.english.usage]

    Mike Spencer:

    Interesting to note that top-posting wasn't mentioned by
    Net.God in His commandments.

    The fifth commandment implies interleaved posting:

    Thou shalt quote meaningfully. Net.God loves not the man
    who taketh more than needed nor he who quoteth all,
    including the sig. Render unto Net.God what is Net.God's,
    render unto Usas what is Usas; credit Senda for he is good.

    The styling, by the way, is flawed. Whoever says `taketh'
    should also say `loveth' not `loves'. `he' should be `him'
    because it is the object of `loves', `who' should be `that'
    (see KJV), the possessive of `Usas' is not `Usas', &c.

    I posted The Compleat Commandments here:

    http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=172492619200

    --
    () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
    /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stefan Ram@21:1/5 to Johanne Fairchild on Sat Aug 31 16:22:09 2024
    Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote or quoted:
    In the 00s (first decade), we had lots of very technical conversations.
    I remember comp.lang.c. Wow. It was full of very knowledgeable C >programmers. You can hardly see that now.

    Ben Bacarisse and James Kuyper are knowledgeable as all get-out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Dorsey@21:1/5 to mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere on Sat Aug 31 23:47:26 2024
    In article <874j749xk4.fsf@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>,
    Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

    Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> writes:

    Chris Hennessy (chenness@enterprise.powerup.com.au) wrote:

    The brothers Usas and Senda, despairing of the state of UseNet, went
    unto the mountain at the feet of Net.God. "Oh Net.God, there is
    confusion and sorrow in your place of UseNet. The people worship false
    gods and knowst not your will."

    Interesting to note that top-posting wasn't mentioned by Net.God in
    His commandments.

    I do not think top-posting existed at the time that was written. Top
    posting is a relatively recent horror.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Johanne Fairchild@21:1/5 to Stefan Ram on Sun Sep 1 22:47:13 2024
    ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:

    Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote or quoted:
    In the 00s (first decade), we had lots of very technical conversations.
    I remember comp.lang.c. Wow. It was full of very knowledgeable C >>programmers. You can hardly see that now.

    Ben Bacarisse and James Kuyper are knowledgeable as all get-out.

    They were both there at the time. Are they hanging out at comp.lang.c
    now? I unsubscribed myself. Can't remember why. Very long
    conversations about uninteresting things? Can't remember.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From yeti@21:1/5 to Johanne Fairchild on Mon Sep 2 06:56:22 2024
    Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> writes:

    Are they hanging out at comp.lang.c now?

    Yes.

    ... and round about 3% +/- a bit (BB:3.2% and JK:2.6%) of the posts of
    2024 in c.l.c I see in my newsreader are from each one of them.

    I unsubscribed myself. Can't remember why. Very long conversations
    about uninteresting things? Can't remember.

    I can't remember why I did not unsubscribe c.l.c and that may even be
    worse... >:-P

    --
    2. Hitchhiker 20: (34) "What, that thing?" said Arthur, "I thought we'd forgotten about that."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Stefan Ram@21:1/5 to Johanne Fairchild on Mon Sep 2 12:12:07 2024
    Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote or quoted: >ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
    Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote or quoted:
    In the 00s (first decade), we had lots of very technical conversations.
    I remember comp.lang.c. Wow. It was full of very knowledgeable C >>>programmers. You can hardly see that now.
    Ben Bacarisse and James Kuyper are knowledgeable as all get-out.
    They were both there at the time. Are they hanging out at comp.lang.c
    now? I unsubscribed myself. Can't remember why. Very long
    conversations about uninteresting things? Can't remember.

    I still have subscribed comp.lang.c, but by now I have added every
    regular to my filter, so I only possibly see occasional non-regulars.

    "Uninteresting things" sometimes might matter in C programming
    (depending on what exactly those uninteresting things are).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Mike Spencer on Thu Sep 5 01:34:12 2024
    On 28 Aug 2024 17:55:55 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:

    Interesting to note that top-posting wasn't mentioned by Net.God in His commandments.

    I like to repurpose lawyer jokes for this.

    ----

    The man responded: “No, I’m an asshole!”

    The first guy said, “Are you a top-poster?”

    A man in the back of the newsgroup stood up and shouted back at him: “I
    take exception to that statement and I resent it greatly!”

    This guy walked into a newsgroup and posted for all to hear: “Top-posters
    are ASSHOLES!”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)