• X Window System boot stipple

    From Retrograde@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 12 21:38:46 2024
    From the «early days are best days» department:
    Title: Iconography of the X Window System: the boot stipple
    Author: Thom Holwerda
    Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 21:22:49 +0000
    Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/140211/iconography-of-the-x-window-system-the-boot-stipple/


    For the uninitiated, what are we looking at? Could it be the Moiré Error[1] from Doom? Well, no. You are looking at (part of) the boot up screen for the
    X Window System[2], specifically the pattern it uses as the background of the root window[3]. This pattern is technically called a stipple[4].

    What you’re seeing is pretty important and came to symbolize a lot for me as a computer practitioner.
    ↫ Matt T. Proud[5]

    The X bootup pattern is definitely burnt onto my retina, as it probably is for a lot of late ’90s, early 2000s Linux users. Setting up X correctly, and more importantly, not breaking it later, was almost an art at the time, so any time you loaded up your PC and this pattern didn’t greet you, you’d get this sinister feeling in the pit of your stomach. There was now a very real chance you were going to have to debug your X configuration file, and nobody – absolutely nobody – liked doing that, and if you did, you’re lying.

    Matt T. Proud dove into the history of the X stipple, and discovered it’s been
    part of X since pretty much the very beginning, and even more esoteric X implementations, like the ones used by Solaris or the various commercial versions, have the stipple. He also discovered several other variants of the stipple included in X, so there is a chance your memory might be just a tiny bit different.

    The stipple eventually disappeared at around 2008 or so, it disappeared as part of the various efforts to modernise, sanitise, and speed up the Linux boot process on desktops. On modern distributions still using X, you won’t encounter
    it anymore by default, but in true X fashion, the code is still there and you can easily bring it back using a flag specifically designed for it, -retro, that you can use with startx or your X init file.

    There’s a ton more information in Proud’s excellent article, but this one paragraph made me smile:

    I will remark that in spite of my job being a software engineer, I had never spent a lot of time looking at the source code for the X Server (XFree86 or X.Org) before. It’s really nuts to see that a lot of the architecture from X10R3 and X11R1 still persists in the code today, which is a statement that
    can be said in deep admiration for legacy code but also disturbance from the power of old decisions. Without having looked at the internals of any Wayland implementation, I can sympathize sight unseen with the sentiments that some developers have toward the X Window System: the code is a dead end. I say
    that with the utmost respect to the X Window System as a technology and an ecosystem. I’ll keep using X, and I will be really sad when it’s no longer possible for me to do so for one reason or another, as I’m extremely attached to it quirks. But it’s clear the future is limited.
    ↫ Matt T. Proud[5]

    We all have great – and not so great – memories of X, but I am really, really
    happy I no longer have to use it.

    Links:
    [1]: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_error (link)
    [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System (link)
    [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_window (link)
    [4]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stipple (link)
    [5]: https://matttproud.com/blog/posts/x-window-system-boot-stipple.html (link)

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  • From Oregonian Haruspex@21:1/5 to Retrograde on Sat Jul 13 16:16:44 2024
    Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
    From the «early days are best days» department:
    Title: Iconography of the X Window System: the boot stipple
    Author: Thom Holwerda
    Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 21:22:49 +0000
    Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/140211/iconography-of-the-x-window-system-the-boot-stipple/


    For the uninitiated, what are we looking at? Could it be the Moiré Error[1] from Doom? Well, no. You are looking at (part of) the boot up screen for the X Window System[2], specifically the pattern it uses as the background of the root window[3]. This pattern is technically called a stipple[4].

    What you’re seeing is pretty important and came to symbolize a lot for me as
    a computer practitioner.
    ↫ Matt T. Proud[5]

    The X bootup pattern is definitely burnt onto my retina, as it probably is for
    a lot of late ’90s, early 2000s Linux users. Setting up X correctly, and more
    importantly, not breaking it later, was almost an art at the time, so any time
    you loaded up your PC and this pattern didn’t greet you, you’d get this sinister feeling in the pit of your stomach. There was now a very real chance you were going to have to debug your X configuration file, and nobody – absolutely nobody – liked doing that, and if you did, you’re lying.

    Matt T. Proud dove into the history of the X stipple, and discovered it’s been
    part of X since pretty much the very beginning, and even more esoteric X implementations, like the ones used by Solaris or the various commercial versions, have the stipple. He also discovered several other variants of the stipple included in X, so there is a chance your memory might be just a tiny bit different.

    The stipple eventually disappeared at around 2008 or so, it disappeared as part
    of the various efforts to modernise, sanitise, and speed up the Linux boot process on desktops. On modern distributions still using X, you won’t encounter
    it anymore by default, but in true X fashion, the code is still there and you can easily bring it back using a flag specifically designed for it, -retro, that you can use with startx or your X init file.

    There’s a ton more information in Proud’s excellent article, but this one paragraph made me smile:

    I will remark that in spite of my job being a software engineer, I had never spent a lot of time looking at the source code for the X Server (XFree86 or X.Org) before. It’s really nuts to see that a lot of the architecture from X10R3 and X11R1 still persists in the code today, which is a statement that can be said in deep admiration for legacy code but also disturbance from the power of old decisions. Without having looked at the internals of any Wayland implementation, I can sympathize sight unseen with the sentiments that some developers have toward the X Window System: the code is a dead end. I say that with the utmost respect to the X Window System as a technology and an ecosystem. I’ll keep using X, and I will be really sad when it’s no longer
    possible for me to do so for one reason or another, as I’m extremely attached
    to it quirks. But it’s clear the future is limited.
    ↫ Matt T. Proud[5]

    We all have great – and not so great – memories of X, but I am really, really
    happy I no longer have to use it.

    Links:
    [1]: https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_error (link)
    [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System (link)
    [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_window (link)
    [4]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stipple (link)
    [5]: https://matttproud.com/blog/posts/x-window-system-boot-stipple.html (link)


    Ideally, anti-X11 advocates should be deported, or processed into stem
    cells.

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  • From Bob Eager@21:1/5 to Oregonian Haruspex on Sat Jul 13 20:29:13 2024
    On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:16:44 +0000, Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

    Ideally, anti-X11 advocates should be deported, or processed into stem
    cells.

    +1

    --
    Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

    Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
    http://www.mirrorservice.org

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Retrograde on Sat Jul 13 23:45:46 2024
    On 12 Jul 2024 21:38:46 GMT, Retrograde wrote:

    For the uninitiated, what are we looking at?

    Wasn’t it just the 25% grey pattern copied from the Apple Macintosh from 1984?

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  • From Javier@21:1/5 to Retrograde on Sun Jul 28 21:42:34 2024
    Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:
    Title: Iconography of the X Window System: the boot stipple
    Author: Thom Holwerda
    Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 21:22:49 +0000
    Link: https://www.osnews.com/story/140211/iconography-of-the-x-window-system-the-boot-stipple/
    (...)
    implementation, I can sympathize sight unseen with the sentiments that some developers have toward the X Window System: the code is a dead end.
    (...)
    I’ll keep using X, and I will be really sad when it’s no longer
    possible for me to do so for one reason or another

    OSnews and other media are publishing these articles to push the idea
    that X11 is going to fade as a memory. OSnews published another article recently about twm. And in my YouTube feed I'm also getting recommendations with videos about the history of X11 (from the channel RetroBytes).

    It's quite subtle, but this is a marketing campaign to promote Wayland and to stop devs from writing applications for X11 (which is the most stable
    and portable API).

    In any case, reading about the history of X11 is an interesting topic.

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  • From Javier@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Sun Jul 28 23:46:02 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:42:34 +0000, Javier wrote:

    ... this is a marketing campaign ...

    Who is paying for it?

    There is very little money involved with these marketing campaigns.
    The campaign is just moved by a few people working at some foundation
    (possibly freedesktop.org), and what they get paid is peanuts. They
    mostly do it to advance their careers or to get invited at conferences.
    And the journalists and content creators are not being paid anything.
    They just do these articles/videos because they get their ideas of what
    to publish from somewhere else.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Javier on Mon Jul 29 00:19:10 2024
    On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 23:46:02 +0000, Javier wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:42:34 +0000, Javier wrote:

    ... this is a marketing campaign ...

    Who is paying for it?

    There is very little money involved with these marketing campaigns.

    With any conspiracy theory, the question to ask is “cui bono?” (“whose benefit?”). Or, if you prefer, “follow the money”.

    Nobody wastes their time on running expensive advertising campaigns unless
    they hope to get something out of it.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Javier on Sun Jul 28 21:49:39 2024
    On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:42:34 +0000, Javier wrote:

    ... this is a marketing campaign ...

    Who is paying for it?

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  • From Oregonian Haruspex@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Mon Jul 29 11:25:36 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:42:34 +0000, Javier wrote:

    ... this is a marketing campaign ...

    Who is paying for it?


    MS, IBM/RedHat, and the NSA.

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  • From John McCue@21:1/5 to Javier on Mon Jul 29 15:48:33 2024
    Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    <snip>

    OSnews and other media are publishing these articles to push
    the idea that X11 is going to fade as a memory.

    I doubt they are doing it on purpose, how many new pro-X11
    articles are being published. None to very few, I think
    if some were being written, you would see it on OSNews.

    OSnews published another article recently about twm. And
    in my YouTube feed I'm also getting recommendations
    with videos about the history of X11 (from the channel
    RetroBytes).

    Case in point, someone put out an article about twm(1) and
    it ended up on OSNews. I cannot get to OSNews because the
    captha check freezes my browser right now, but I thought
    I saw another X11 article there too.

    It's quite subtle, but this is a marketing campaign to promote
    Wayland and to stop devs from writing applications for X11
    (which is the most stable and portable API).

    Personally, I think Wayland is being pushed because that
    is where the action is right now. Also, people have yet
    to bring this up, the main developer of Wayland is also
    one of the main developers for Xorg.

    In any case, reading about the history of X11 is an interesting topic.
    Yes

    Right now, I am hoping the BSDs would get together to keep
    X current, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

    --
    [t]csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
    - Paraphrasing Star Wars

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  • From Retrograde@21:1/5 to Javier on Mon Jul 29 19:27:29 2024
    On 2024-07-28, Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    OSnews and other media are publishing these articles to push the idea
    that X11 is going to fade as a memory. OSnews published another article recently about twm. And in my YouTube feed I'm also getting recommendations with videos about the history of X11 (from the channel RetroBytes).

    Anyone who's read OSNews for a while (I began in around 2002 I think)
    know that website is basically a labor of love, and Mr. Holwerda drifts
    from one interest to another, as his articles track his interests.
    There was a series of articles about Palm at one point. I highly doubt
    they were promoting anything other than his own curiosity.

    I enjoyed the allegation that the NSA is behind this though.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to John McCue on Mon Jul 29 21:47:51 2024
    On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:48:33 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:

    Right now, I am hoping the BSDs would get together to keep X current,
    but I kind of doubt that will happen.

    The code doesn’t write itself.

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Oregonian Haruspex on Mon Jul 29 21:47:30 2024
    On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 11:25:36 -0000 (UTC), Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:42:34 +0000, Javier wrote:

    ... this is a marketing campaign ...

    Who is paying for it?


    MS, IBM/RedHat, and the NSA.

    What do they get out of it? You think they will make loadsamoney from Wayland-based products?

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@21:1/5 to John McCue on Tue Jul 30 08:52:15 2024
    John McCue <jmccue@magnetar.jmcunx.com> wrote:

    Right now, I am hoping the BSDs would get together to keep
    X current, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

    What's "current"? The biggest issue would be changes to the
    operating systems that break old X code, and then obviously that
    will be easy for the BSDs to fix/avoid because they're the ones
    making the changes.

    The other would be compiler changes breaking builds, but again such
    people working on other big projects shouldn't struggle to tackle
    that.

    There's also graphics drivers, but then the X developers didn't
    have the muscle to keep up with them on their own before anyway,
    hence the widespread use of proprietary Nvidia drivers. Personally
    my modest graphics needs are served by the VESA or framebuffer
    drivers (I'm not sure if the latter exists on BSD), so I don't
    really care whether X is "current" driver-wise.

    Perhaps long-term the issue might be whether it's ported to new CPU architectures like RISCV? That's a long way off though, there might
    even be a replacement for Wayland by then.

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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  • From Lawrence D'Oliveiro@21:1/5 to Computer Nerd Kev on Mon Jul 29 23:17:30 2024
    On 30 Jul 2024 08:52:15 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

    Perhaps long-term the issue might be whether it's ported to new CPU architectures like RISCV? That's a long way off though, there might even
    be a replacement for Wayland by then.

    Linux already runs on RISC-V.

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  • From Computer Nerd Kev@21:1/5 to Lawrence D'Oliveiro on Wed Jul 31 08:49:28 2024
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
    On 30 Jul 2024 08:52:15 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

    Perhaps long-term the issue might be whether it's ported to new CPU
    architectures like RISCV? That's a long way off though, there might even
    be a replacement for Wayland by then.

    Linux already runs on RISC-V.

    That itself doesn't imply much because X.org has its own
    architecture-dependent code, but I see that Debian does have
    riscv64 package for X.org so I guess it does work.

    The current development version of the release notes document
    still doesn't mention it though, so possibly unofficial?

    "Xorg currently has support for Linux, Solaris, and some BSD OSs on
    Alpha, PowerPC, IA-64, AMD64, Intel x86, Sparc, and MIPS
    platforms."
    https://lab.vern.cc/gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/doc/xorg-docs/-/blob/master/general/ReleaseNotes.xml

    --
    __ __
    #_ < |\| |< _#

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