I think a reasonable decision criteria would be:
Subject: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
As people have embraced Git and even now IPv6 - we too can and must
embrace newer platforms that offer a better experience for us humans
as we work together on Perl related projects.
This will mean making some difficult and dispassionate decisions to
deprecate long cherished platforms, as we embrace contemporary
alternatives.
Sounds a bit as if written by an advertising agency. "We too
can and must embrace newer platform" does not give any
comprehensible reasons. "better experience" is vague and
subjective. "for us humans" superfluous (is there any riks
someone thinks it deals with experience for other animals?).
This will mean making some difficult and dispassionate decisions to >>deprecate long cherished platforms, as we embrace contemporary >>alternatives.
More advertising blather. "Dispassionate"!
Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> wrote or quoted:
Subject: An objective criteria for deprecating community platforms
When someone calls his own criterion "objective", this is
already more than suspicious.
As people have embraced Git and even now IPv6 - we too can and must
embrace newer platforms that offer a better experience for us humans
as we work together on Perl related projects.
Sounds a bit as if written by an advertising agency. "We too
can and must embrace newer platform" does not give any
comprehensible reasons. "better experience" is vague and
subjective. "for us humans" superfluous (is there any riks
someone thinks it deals with experience for other animals?).
This will mean making some difficult and dispassionate decisions to >>deprecate long cherished platforms, as we embrace contemporary >>alternatives.
More advertising blather. "Dispassionate"!
They have already closed the mailing lists/newsgroups in other projects.
I basically read it as "Email is passe. The hip kids are on Discord, Facebook, Reddit, etc. Ignore these at your own peril."
Even though i disagree with the sentiment, i think it needs to be
exposed to fresh air and sunlight.
I would like to point out that those "contemporary platforms" are not
free and open, so they don't seem compatible with the spirit that Perl
is developed in.
Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
In Python, several mailing lists and a newsgroup are aliveYour information is not up to date. The python-dev (which you mention
and kicking (perhaps in parallel with other media).
The newsgroup is "comp.lang.python"; mailing lists are
"python-list", "python-dev", "python-checkins",
"python-help", and the "tutor mailing list".
above) and python-ideas lists have been closed permanently. And those
were very important ones.
Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
They have already closed the mailing lists/newsgroups in other projects.
In Python, several mailing lists and a newsgroup are alive
and kicking (perhaps in parallel with other media).
The newsgroup is "comp.lang.python"; mailing lists are
"python-list", "python-dev", "python-checkins",
"python-help", and the "tutor mailing list".
Javier <invalid@invalid.invalid> writes:
Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
In Python, several mailing lists and a newsgroup are aliveYour information is not up to date. The python-dev (which you mention >>above) and python-ideas lists have been closed permanently. And those
and kicking (perhaps in parallel with other media).
The newsgroup is "comp.lang.python"; mailing lists are
"python-list", "python-dev", "python-checkins",
"python-help", and the "tutor mailing list".
were very important ones.
I looked at some recent web page from python.org.
The text there did not seem to reflect that change yet.
Mailing lists are a good example which we can compare to my criteria.
If you can find the right list, you subscribe and send your question.
Your email address is blasted out to all subscribers which aren't
visible to you, whilst your inbox is already being filled with all
discussion on the list even if you're not interested- assuming there
is any discussion.
Forums attempt to simulate 'push' by:
b) RSS, which almost nobody uses
I don't know how people manage to keep track of more than a handful of forums. Do they just open dozens of browser tabs every day?
scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Forums attempt to simulate 'push' by:
b) RSS, which almost nobody uses
I guess I'm "almost nobody." I use RSS not only for tracking new posts to websites and blogs, but also to find new software releases for which I need to update the Gentoo ebuilds I maintain. I started out using Google Reader for this purpose, but when it was discontinued (probably for not bringing in
enough $$$), I switched over to self-managed TTRSS and have never looked back.
I actually direct most RSS feeds that I watch to email, so that
takes the discussion full-circle. If I followed more high-volume
feeds then a dedicated feed reader would probably be more
desireable (or reading via NNTP with Gwene, which of course is also
an option with mailing lists using Gmane).
In my experience only some forums supply an RSS feed in the first
place anyway. Or maybe the forum admins are the people who were
meant as the almost nobodys.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Forums attempt to simulate 'push' by:
b) RSS, which almost nobody uses
I guess I'm "almost nobody." I use RSS not only for tracking new posts to websites and blogs, but also to find new software releases for which I need to update the Gentoo ebuilds I maintain. I started out using Google Reader for this purpose, but when it was discontinued (probably for not bringing in enough $$$), I switched over to self-managed TTRSS and have never looked back.
I don't know how people manage to keep track of more than a handful of
forums. Do they just open dozens of browser tabs every day?
I don't really do forums, except to maybe dig up answers to questions
already asked. I suspect even an RSS feed from a forum would still be too noisy to want to check on a regular basis.
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Forums attempt to simulate 'push' by:
b) RSS, which almost nobody uses
I guess I'm "almost nobody." I use RSS not only for tracking new posts to >> > websites and blogs, but also to find new software releases for which I need
to update the Gentoo ebuilds I maintain. I started out using Google Reader
for this purpose, but when it was discontinued (probably for not bringing in
enough $$$), I switched over to self-managed TTRSS and have never looked >> > back.
I actually direct most RSS feeds that I watch to email, so that
takes the discussion full-circle. If I followed more high-volume
feeds then a dedicated feed reader would probably be more
desireable (or reading via NNTP with Gwene, which of course is also
an option with mailing lists using Gmane).
There is probably a large crossover between RSS and NNTP users :-)
But I think it's safe to say that few non-technical people are using RSS.
RSS also struggles with private/restricted forums. I had lots of fun on a phpBB site where the RSS was behind the login wall, so I either had to do
the (SSO) login from within the RSS client, or somehow convey the login cookie from my browser to the client. And the cookie would time out after some days, so I'd then have to do it all again.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I actually direct most RSS feeds that I watch to email, so that
takes the discussion full-circle. If I followed more high-volume
feeds then a dedicated feed reader would probably be more
desireable (or reading via NNTP with Gwene, which of course is also
an option with mailing lists using Gmane).
There is probably a large crossover between RSS and NNTP users :-)
But I think it's safe to say that few non-technical people are using RSS.
Podcasts are a special case of RSS, one that's used to serve up audio
instead of text. By that measure, there are probably lots of people out there using RSS who don't even know it. That said, they probably aren't
also pulling down the Slashdot feed alongside the Adam Carolla podcast. :)
RSS also struggles with private/restricted forums. I had lots of fun on a phpBB site where the RSS was behind the login wall, so I either had to do the (SSO) login from within the RSS client, or somehow convey the login cookie from my browser to the client. And the cookie would time out after some days, so I'd then have to do it all again.
I think I've dealt with that by changing the feed URL to include
credentials: http://user:password@invalid.tld/feed, or something like that.
(Just double-checked...I have a feed of radio recordings that I timeshift. The RSS feed for that is password-protected so I can plausibly claim it's
for private use. :) TTRSS has options to send a username and password to grab a feed, which falls into your first category.)
Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> quoted a "Dean":
I think a reasonable decision criteria would be:
one criterion, several criteria
On 2023-01-08, Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
Sounds a bit as if written by an advertising agency. "We too
can and must embrace newer platform" does not give any
comprehensible reasons. "better experience" is vague and
subjective. "for us humans" superfluous (is there any riks
someone thinks it deals with experience for other animals?).
This will mean making some difficult and dispassionate decisions to >>>deprecate long cherished platforms, as we embrace contemporary >>>alternatives.
More advertising blather. "Dispassionate"!
I basically read it as "Email is passe. The hip kids are on Discord, Facebook, Reddit, etc. Ignore these at your own peril."
Even though i disagree with the sentiment, i think it needs to be
exposed to fresh air and sunlight.
I would like to point out that those "contemporary platforms" are not
free and open, so they don't seem compatible with the spirit that Perl
is developed in.
provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from August
2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text
editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways.
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with the >education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because they don't
seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves into.
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with the >education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because they don't
seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves into.
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from August
2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text
editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways.
Technically, I can answer any post I can still read, but
often people do not like it when one responds to old posts.
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with the >>education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because they don't >>seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves into.
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with
the education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because
they don't seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves
into.
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!That's life. Why are they leaving?
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from Augustoften people do not like it when one responds to old posts.
2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text >>>editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways. >>Technically, I can answer any post I can still read, but
Why not?
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that ourBut even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with the >>>education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because they don't >>>seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves into.
That's life. Why are they leaving?
On 12/4/23 02:30, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
[...]
People stop using Usenet for a variety of reasons, including:
- they found better alternatives for their use cases
- they followed their communities elsewhere
- they got sick of spam
- they got sick of trolls (in the broadest possible sense)
- they became too busy
- they aged out
So their connection timed out?
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with
the education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because
they don't seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves
into.
In reality, many people are well aware of the issues with other
communication platforms.
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!That's life. Why are they leaving?
People stop using Usenet for a variety of reasons, including:
- they found better alternatives for their use cases
- they followed their communities elsewhere
- they got sick of spam
- they got sick of trolls (in the broadest possible sense)
- they became too busy
- they aged out
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from August
2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text >>>editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways.
Technically, I can answer any post I can still read, but
often people do not like it when one responds to old posts.
Why not?
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with
the education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because
they don't seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves
into.
In reality, many people are well aware of the issues with other
communication platforms.
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!That's life. Why are they leaving?
People stop using Usenet for a variety of reasons, including:
- they found better alternatives for their use cases
- they followed their communities elsewhere
- they got sick of spam
- they got sick of trolls (in the broadest possible sense)
- they became too busy
- they aged out
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
What we should be worried about is not with the fact that our
communities might miss the hip kids. We should be concerned with the >>education that the hip kids are missing out precisely because they don't >>seem to notice the deep hole they're getting themselves into.
|The sage
|does not recruit students;
|the students seek him.
from a part of a translation of the
text of the I Ching diagram four.
Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
provide an easy way for me to continue this conversation from August
2023 (now in December 2023) with my choice of colors, font and text >>>editor? Just that already affects the discussion in relevant ways.
Technically, I can answer any post I can still read, but
often people do not like it when one responds to old posts.
Why not?
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are leaving!
That's life. Why are they leaving?
Forums attempt to simulate 'push' by:
a) Sending you emails about activity. Then it's just a
bad mailing list, because the emails typically do not
convey the full content (they just say 'X posted to Y
thread' or similar) so you have to visit the web site
anyway
A tool I never investigated properly is Discourse.
In the 90's for Open Source projects the "community
platforms" where Usenet newsgroups and mailing lists
run on Listserv or Majordomo (Mailman didn't show up until
1999). IRC was used for text based chat but without SSL!.
CVS was the open source version control system of choice
or you might have been unlucky enough to use Visual Source
Safe at work, whilst Subversion wouldn't show up until
2000.
But the 90's are more than 20 years in the past and IPv6
is actually seeing meaningful adoption now. Many of the
above technologies are as completely foreign to people
with 10+ years of industry experience as Compact
Cassettes, VHS, LaserDisc and maybe CDs or even DVDs.
As people have embraced Git and even now IPv6
-- we too can and must embrace newer platforms that offer
a better experience for us humans as we work together on
Perl related projects.
This will mean making some difficult and dispassionate
decisions to deprecate long cherished platforms, as we
embrace contemporary alternatives.
Will a newcomer have a satisfactory experience?
How discoverable is it?
How high/low is the barrier of entry?
How familiar is the interface to newcomers?
How intuitive and effective is the user interface?
Will questions be taken seriously and answered in a timely
manner?
Is the platform providing reasonable privacy and
moderation controls?
How much time will admins spend maintaining the platform
compared to maintaining the community on the platform?
Would it be set up now if it didn't already exist?
Mailing lists are a good example which we can compare to
my criteria.
If you can find the right list
Your email address is blasted out to all subscribers which
aren't visible to you
whilst your inbox is already being filled with all
discussion on the list even if you're not interested
assuming there is any discussion.
Good luck finding old questions or discussions to
contribute or update on.
Once something is sent it can never be edited or removed
from recipients.
Users have each others email addresses so can contact each
other without moderation.
You can set up filters in your email if you care to, but
this is an inconsistent user interface that is user
dependent and you're still having to maintain the folder's
unread messages.
Emails themselves become dominated by reply text, making
reviewing threads high effort and low signal compared to
interfaces like reddit or even a classic but inferior
webforum layout.
If I started a new community I wouldn't create an email
list.
Run IRC through the above criteria and its even worse!
To have a good experience users need to connect
continuously or set up something that does.
Then try to sift through the stream of content to find
some signal.
If there's any significant activity, questions and
comments will get lost in the stream or conflated with
other discussion.
So let's not, metaphorically speaking, hand new Perl
programmers an audio cassette saying "this really is the
best way to listen to music" and then expect them to take
Perl seriously or to conclude that it is anything other
than a dead language.
Julieta Shem:
A tool I never investigated properly is Discourse.
It is advertised as an alternatvie to mailing lists, but I
have not found it so. No, it does not work like a mailing
list at all. It garbles my beautiful plain-text hard-
wrapped formatting. It even fails to display my messages in
a monospace font unless I send Markdown direct from my
e-mail client (which is difficult and stupid). It requires
of me to use a modern browser on a modern OS on a modern PC,
even if only to register and enable its incomplete mailing-
list mode. A mailing list must be acessible to anyone with
but an e-mail client, without any browser, let alone a
phone. I have complained about it, but nobody cares, people
and projects are moving away from Usenet, IRC, and mailing
lists to Discourse and Discourd. Nobody seems to care
anymore.
Dean:
In the 90's for Open Source projects the "community platforms" where
Usenet newsgroups and mailing lists
Many open-source projects /still/ are -- an omission amounting to a
lie.
This hackneyed malapropism of the word `embrace' betrays a typical
corporate speechwriter.
-- we too can and must embrace newer platforms that offer a better
experience for us humans as we work together on Perl related
projects.
A false analogy again, for stupid readers. Why the funk does he thing
modern platform provide a better experience?
Your email address is blasted out to all subscribers which aren't
visible to you
Wrong: mailing list software can mask your address, if you so desire.
whilst your inbox is already being filled with all discussion on the
list even if you're not interested
The author is unaware of server-side and client-side filters. Setting
one up to sort variousl mailng lists to their individual folders (say,
IMAP folder) is /very/ easy. Alternatively, one can even activate
vacation mode and access all mailinsg lists via NNTP though Gmane.
Users have each others email addresses so can contact each other
without moderation.
Oh, horrors! Of course, the author wants to contol all their
comminuication.
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are
leaving!
That's life.
Stefan Ram to Julieta Shem:As someone who practices Stoicism, I would say the reverse is true. Fate
But even the old hands who know Usenet inside out are
leaving!
That's life.
Sounds fatalistic. Life is not an unstoppable cosmic force,
but rather something we humans forge for ourselves with our
decisions and actions.
Sounds fatalistic. Life is not an unstoppable cosmic
force, but rather something we humans forge for
ourselves with our decisions and actions.
As someone who practices Stoicism, I would say the reverse
is true. Fate is set in stone, but it doesn't mean you
shouldn't give your 100% in whatever you undertake.
Sorry, I went off on a tangent.
So you have read the big four -- Epictetus, Musonius Rufus,
Marcus Aurelius (not a philosopher), and Seneca (not a
philosopher)? No, I do not believe fatalism/determinism is
postulated by all stoics, especially the Roman ones, who
concentrated on the practical, ethical aspect. The main
priciple, I am sure, is realising that man is in control of
his own perceptions and decisions, and cannot (entirely)
control externalities. This view does not require
determinism, does it?
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