"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backed
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
Computer Nerd Kev quoted:
"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backed
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
I think that's a good thing ... right? Provided the efforts to
waylandize everything doesn't fizzle out ...
<https://arewewaylandyet.com>
I mean, running Xeyes on a colleague's VAXstation was fun once or
twice, and firing up a gnome session to your own windows desktop using cygwinand XDMCP was so horribly insecure you'd only do it with the
confines of your own four walls, what do people actually want X11 for
now?
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:
I mean, running Xeyes on a colleague's VAXstation was fun once or
twice,...
...and firing up a gnome session to your own windows desktop using
cygwinand XDMCP was so horribly insecure you'd only do it with the
confines of your own four walls, what do people actually want X11 for
now?
To keep running the same WM I've been using for decades.
what do people actually want X11 for now?
Computer Nerd Kev quoted:
"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backedI think that's a good thing ... right? Provided the efforts to
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
waylandize everything doesn't fizzle out ...
<https://arewewaylandyet.com>
I mean, running Xeyes on a colleague's VAXstation was fun once or
twice, and firing up a gnome session to your own windows desktop using cygwinand XDMCP was so horribly insecure you'd only do it with the
confines of your own four walls, what do people actually want X11 for
now?
schrieb Andy Burns:
what do people actually want X11 for now?
Does it support lightweight window managers like mwm?
I hate environments like GNOME, they are slow and annoying to use.
From that "are we wayland yet" link I posted, no
Enlightenment (experimental),
GNOME,
KDE Plasma,
MATE Desktop (partial)
Not sure if wayland sees it as their job to port mwm etc to it, or
the other WMs jobs to port themselves to wayland?
Guessing the latter, which if they don't might see the death of them in the long
term?
Andy Burns writes:
what do people actually want X11 for now?
To keep running the same WM I've been using for decades.
Computer Nerd Kev quoted:
"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backed
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
I think that's a good thing ... right? Provided the efforts to waylandize everything doesn't fizzle out ...
<https://arewewaylandyet.com>
I mean, running Xeyes on a colleague's VAXstation was fun once or twice, and firing up a gnome session to your own windows desktop using cygwinand XDMCP was
so horribly insecure you'd only do it with the confines of your own four walls,
what do people actually want X11 for now?
Am 05.01.2023 schrieb Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>:
From that "are we wayland yet" link I posted, no
Enlightenment (experimental),
GNOME,
KDE Plasma,
MATE Desktop (partial)
Not sure if wayland sees it as their job to port mwm etc to it, or
the other WMs jobs to port themselves to wayland?
Ok, so Wayland isn't and alternative for me at this time at all.
Guessing the latter, which if they don't might see the death of them in the long
term?
X11 isn't dead, there are just not that much commits as in the last
years. If all works fine, errors are fixed and the distributions still
ship X11, I can stay with it.
Dan Espen wrote:
Andy Burns writes:
what do people actually want X11 for now?
To keep running the same WM I've been using for decades.
I fall into the category where Gnome (my distro's default) as a WM doesn't annoy
me enough to use anything different, I did use XFCE for a bit, and now I don't
know which do/don't work with wayland ... that's what I meant by "fizzle out" if
your favourite WM doesn't support wayland, eventually it's going to find it self
beached without X11 to run on top of ..
Computer Nerd Kev quoted:
"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backed
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
I think that's a good thing ... right? Provided the efforts to waylandize everything doesn't fizzle out ...
<https://arewewaylandyet.com>
I mean, running Xeyes on a colleague's VAXstation was fun once or twice, and firing up a gnome session to your own windows desktop using cygwinand XDMCP was
so horribly insecure you'd only do it with the confines of your own four walls,
what do people actually want X11 for now?
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://arewewaylandyet.com>
No vim on that page.
I was under the impression that one of the plans for Wayland was to be able to run X server on top of it so that all X11 applications would continue to work. Has this plan been abandoned ?
Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
I was under the impression that one of the plans for Wayland was to be able to run X server on top of it so that all X11 applications would continue to work. Has this plan been abandoned ?
I think that still exists, XServer sits on top of Wayland, apps tolk to XServer,
believing it's Xorg,
but when that first crept into Fedora, it seemed to break
the tradional way of X remoting by
export DISPLAY=host:0.0
Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
<https://arewewaylandyet.com>
No vim on that page.
Well it doesn't need to be, since multiple terminal emulators are there.
Am 04.01.2023 schrieb Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>:
what do people actually want X11 for now?
Does it support lightweight window managers like mwm?
I hate environments like GNOME, they are slow and annoying to use.
Marco Moock <mo01@posteo.de> writes:
X11 isn't dead, there are just not that much commits as in the last
years. If all works fine, errors are fixed and the distributions still
ship X11, I can stay with it.
I sure hope so. Especially since Wayland hasn't shown any of the improvements they touted. As far as I can see the Wayland effort
reduces function, offers no benefits, and is therefore a total failure.
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 22:48:48 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev quoted:
"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backed
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
I think that's a good thing ... right? Provided the efforts to waylandize >> everything doesn't fizzle out ...
For context , the opening post of the thread gave the link https://www.phoronix.com/news/XServer-2022-Development-Pace which says
Of course, it's not that X.Org Server is feature-complete and great as
there still are issues around HDR support, synchronization improvements,
and other enhancements that could be made along with better tackling the
X.Org Server security,
.I do think that the X server is great. I don't think that something as
wide ranging as this can ever be "feature-complete" , there will always be some feature someone wants.
Anyway , I don't know what the features in the quote mean. I could look them up but I'm not that curious. As long as bugs get fixed (assuming there are any left) , that's fine by me.
So I don't expect that I'll ever need to switch to Wayland. I'm
not all that concerned about X.Org not getting any new features, or applications eventually dropping X11 support. The only issue might
be how X ties in closely with the Linux kernel (expecially now that
it uses the Kernel's DRM interface, which is bound to change over
time). So if development gets entirely abandoned, eventually it
might not compile/run on modern Linux at all. But I recently
succeeded at getting the last release of XFree86, from 2008, to run
on modern Linux, as well as on ARM, after performing a long list of
minor code fixes. So I expect that an X server will remain
runable on Linux for me, at worst after an approachable amount of
individual work.
Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
...
So I don't expect that I'll ever need to switch to Wayland. I'm
not all that concerned about X.Org not getting any new features, or
applications eventually dropping X11 support. The only issue might
be how X ties in closely with the Linux kernel (expecially now that
it uses the Kernel's DRM interface, which is bound to change over
time). So if development gets entirely abandoned, eventually it
might not compile/run on modern Linux at all. But I recently
succeeded at getting the last release of XFree86, from 2008, to run
on modern Linux, as well as on ARM, after performing a long list of
minor code fixes. So I expect that an X server will remain
runable on Linux for me, at worst after an approachable amount of
individual work.
did you post those changes someplace?
not that i'd ever need them myself but perhaps someone else
would be able to use them.
[Crossposting to comp.os.linux.misc . ][snip]
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 22:48:48 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Computer Nerd Kev quoted:
"It shouldn't be news to you that most of the corporate-backed
developers working on the Linux desktop are no longer investing in
new feature work around the X.Org Server and have shifted their
efforts to a Wayland-focused environment moving forward."
what do people actually want X11 for now?
I watch movies , look at images , surf the internet , read PDF and postscript files , type text (like this one) and run terminal emulators. I use the great and minimal ratpoison window manager. I don't use a desktop environment as such. I play the occasional game too but I haven't done that in a long time. The X server works fine and I'm of the opinion "if it works , don't fix it" especially for something as complicated as this. I also know the X programming interface. I assume there is something analogous for Wayland and it may be great for all I know but I don't have unlimited time and the X server interface already does what I want.
Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
I was under the impression that one of the plans for Wayland was to be able >> to run X server on top of it so that all X11 applications would continue to >> work. Has this plan been abandoned ?
I think that still exists, XServer sits on top of Wayland, apps tolk to XServer,
believing it's Xorg, but when that first crept into Fedora, it seemed to break
the tradional way of X remoting by
export DISPLAY=host:0.0
into whether it's possible to run a Wayland "compositor" that
displays as an a window in X. The answer was yes, and indeed this
was a feature of one of the project's example compositors, although
I couldn't find the exact code due to various poorly-documented reorganisations and re-namings (_definately_ the same developers
who used to work on X.Org :) ). For now there's no point because
everything supports X still anyway, but this convinced me that it
shouldn't be that hard to build a system to run Wayland programs on
X, and I expect someone else will have developed that long before I
find that I need it myself.
In comp.misc Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Spiros Bousbouras wrote:
I was under the impression that one of the plans for Wayland was to be able >>> to run X server on top of it so that all X11 applications would continue to >>> work. Has this plan been abandoned ?
I think that still exists, XServer sits on top of Wayland, apps tolk to XServer,
believing it's Xorg, but when that first crept into Fedora, it seemed to break
the tradional way of X remoting by
export DISPLAY=host:0.0
That is because modern versions of the XServer have disabled TCP
listening by default.
$ cat /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc
#!/bin/sh
exec /usr/bin/X -nolisten tcp "$@"
You need to remove the '-nolisten tcp' from /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc
That should do the trick.
[Crossposting to comp.os.linux.misc . ]
On Thu, 5 Jan 2023 11:33:39 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
Dan Espen wrote:
Andy Burns writes:
what do people actually want X11 for now?
To keep running the same WM I've been using for decades.
I fall into the category where Gnome (my distro's default) as a WM
doesn't annoy me enough to use anything different, I did use XFCE
for a bit, and now I don't know which do/don't work with wayland
... that's what I meant by "fizzle out" if your favourite WM
doesn't support wayland, eventually it's going to find it self
beached without X11 to run on top of ..
I was under the impression that one of the plans for Wayland was to
be able to run X server on top of it so that all X11 applications
would continue to work. Has this plan been abandoned ?
I fall into the category where Gnome (my distro's default) as a WM
doesn't annoy me enough to use anything differen
Am 05.01.2023 um 18:11:17 Uhr schrieb Spiros Bousbouras:
I was under the impression that one of the plans for Wayland was to
be able to run X server on top of it so that all X11 applications
would continue to work. Has this plan been abandoned ?
What is the benefit of that if the WM itself doesn't run on Wayland?
I fall into the category where Gnome (my distro's default) as a WM
doesn't annoy me enough to use anything differen
Use it on small screens or slow GPUs, then you will see that is is bad
in that cases.
They have been rejecting good patches. Xgl was just ignored and finally
taken out. Frankly X11 is finished software.
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