• Old emails

    From Alek@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 6 18:39:13 2016
    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Is there an archive of emails?

    Thanks.

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  • From Alek@21:1/5 to VanguardLH on Thu Jul 7 19:19:45 2016
    VanguardLH wrote on 7/7/2016 2:28 PM:
    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or maybe 1986.
    Is there an archive of emails?


    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

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  • From David Ritz@21:1/5 to Alek on Thu Jul 7 19:49:24 2016
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    On Thursday, 07 July 2016 19:19 -0400,
    in article <nlmo2s$5kf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Alek <alek.trishan@gmail.com> wrote:

    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or
    maybe 1986. Is there an archive of emails?

    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Unless you personally archived it, it's history.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

    No.

    - --
    David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
    "The Internet is not for sissies." - Paul Vixie

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  • From Alek@21:1/5 to David Ritz on Fri Jul 8 01:44:49 2016
    David Ritz wrote on 7/7/2016 8:49 PM:
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    Hash: SHA1

    On Thursday, 07 July 2016 19:19 -0400,
    in article <nlmo2s$5kf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Alek <alek.trishan@gmail.com> wrote:

    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or
    maybe 1986. Is there an archive of emails?

    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Unless you personally archived it, it's history.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

    No.

    There are google groups that contain very old emails. The oldest one I
    found that I had written was dated Feb 1988.

    So there must be others. :-)

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  • From Hans-Georg Michna@21:1/5 to VanguardLH on Fri Jul 8 09:57:35 2016
    On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:28:33 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

    ... IMAP ...

    Did IMAP even exist in 1988? Did POP exist then?

    Hans-Georg

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  • From Alek@21:1/5 to Alek on Fri Jul 8 03:59:26 2016
    Alek wrote on 7/8/2016 1:44 AM:
    David Ritz wrote on 7/7/2016 8:49 PM:
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Thursday, 07 July 2016 19:19 -0400,
    in article <nlmo2s$5kf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Alek <alek.trishan@gmail.com> wrote:

    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or
    maybe 1986. Is there an archive of emails?

    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Unless you personally archived it, it's history.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

    No.

    There are google groups that contain very old emails. The oldest one I
    found that I had written was dated Feb 1988.

    So there must be others. :-)


    My mistake! What I found was not emails but rather USENET posts. Oldest
    is December 9, 1987.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From VanguardLH@21:1/5 to Alek on Thu Jul 7 13:28:33 2016
    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or maybe 1986.
    Is there an archive of emails?

    You never mentioned which e-mail protocol is used to access your e-mail account. If POP then e-mails are downloaded and stored locally. They
    will remain until you deleted them (and even then may not physically
    disappear from the e-mail client's database until your purge/compact the database to physically remove the delete-flagged records). IMAP may
    keep a local copy of an e-mail but the client remains in sync with the
    server. If you delete an item in the client then it is deleted from the
    IMAP server. If you delete an item using the webmail client to your
    account then it gets deleted from any client connecting to that IMAP
    server. If you delete an item in one e-mail client, it gets deleted
    from the IMAP server, and then deleted from any other IMAP client
    connecting to the same IMAP server for the same account. IMAP keeps
    server and client(s) in sync.

    Use the webmail client afforded by your e-mail client to see if the item
    is still in the message store up on the server. Some folks configure
    their e-mail clients to NOT delete items when retrieved via POP. The
    default for POP is for the client to send a RETR[ieve] command followed
    by DEL[ete] command. If the client is configured to "leave messages on
    server" (for POP access) then the client omits the following DELete
    command and the item remains on the server. Using a webmail client lets
    you see what is on the server.

    If using POP to access your e-mail account, you would find old copies of
    the e-mail client's message store (its file) in your backups. You do
    backups, right? If you don't do backups then you consider your data as reproducible or trivial. Backups should be scheduled to run at periodic intervals since those that depend on getting manually instigated by the
    user are guaranteed to never get created (users are not reliable since,
    as yet, they are not automatons). In your backups, you could walk back
    through them to find older copies of the message store file for your *unidentified* e-mail client. However, even if you do save backups at
    periodic intervals, it is likely you don't have the space to store them
    all the way back to 1986 or you have configured the backup program to
    retain only so many backups that span back maybe only a month to a year.
    That is, ancient backups likely get deleted or rolled out of the backup
    store. Of course, if you still had that 1986-dated e-mail in your *unidentified* e-mail client's message store until yesterday or a week
    ago and your backups span back further than that then you would have a
    backup copy of the message store file for your *unidentified* e-mail
    client.

    If you have been using IMAP and you don't see an item in your IMAP
    client then it is also not up on the server. It's gone.

    You never identified your e-mail client. Some have an archiving
    function where old e-mails (or matching on some other criteria) get
    moved into an archive file. This reduces the active message store's
    size so the client remains responsive. The larger the message store
    then the longer it takes for the client to show or manage it all. In a
    client that supports archiving, you may have to configure it to show the archive file. It is a separate message store so it won't affect the
    primary one used to receive new e-mails; however, it is a message store
    so it can get slow to view or manage when it gets huge. That is why
    some users that configure to show the archive use auto-archiving on it
    to move even older items into another archive, so they would end up with
    a chain of archive, like one for 2015, another for 2014, and so on where archiving was based on items that were over 1 year old, 2 years old, and
    so on. They end up with yearly archives to ensure each doesn't get too
    huge to slow responsiveness of the e-mail client and also reduce loss
    should one of the archive files get corrupt or lost/deleted.

    If you use POP and the e-mail is no longer in the message for your *unidentified* e-mail client then it is likely you don't have that
    e-mail anymore. If you do backups and the ancient e-mail wasn't deleted
    until after however far back your backups span then you could retrieve
    the file for the message store from your backup(s). If you use IMAP
    which keeps server and client(s) in sync and you don't see it in your
    IMAP e-mail client then it's gone unless the e-mail client kept offline
    copies of IMAP e-mails in a local message store that was included in
    your backups.

    You would get a better and more focused response by asking in a
    newsgroup whose community focuses on the same e-mail client (which you
    should identify since obviously not all e-mail clients are the same).
    Without the details, like the e-mail client and e-mail protocol, you'll
    get vague responses for a vague question.

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  • From Gordon Levi@21:1/5 to Alek on Fri Jul 8 20:08:55 2016
    Alek <alek.trishan@gmail.com> wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Is there an archive of emails?

    I hope not. Even if the CIA has one they won't show it to you. Only
    you and the recipient(s) should have a copy and it is unlikely that
    any of you can still access it.

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  • From Bruce Esquibel@21:1/5 to Hans-Georg Michna on Fri Jul 8 12:34:32 2016
    Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 13:28:33 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

    ... IMAP ...

    Did IMAP even exist in 1988? Did POP exist then?

    Ha, I think in 1988 you used something like:

    cat /var/mail/username

    and if you wanted to get fancy:

    cat /var/mail/username | more

    There was a program called 'mail' on most unix boxes but wasn't much better than catting the mailbox.

    I'm not sure when programs like elm and mutt came into fashion but those
    only read directly from the mail spool.

    -bruce
    bje@ripco.com

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  • From VanguardLH@21:1/5 to Alek on Fri Jul 8 07:54:34 2016
    Alek wrote:

    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    If it is not in your account (on the server), not in a message store in
    your e-mail program, and not saved in a backup then those messages are
    gone. They got deleted and no one has them. Not you, not "the
    Internet", nowhere.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

    If that were true then no one's e-mail would be private - and no one
    would use e-mail to communicate to anyone else. For public
    communication, like using a party line with telephones, you used chat
    rooms, Usenet, bulletin boards, mailing lists, or forums. If you
    published a message in a public communications venue then there is a
    chance that it got archived somewhere; however, some public places have
    limited visibility, like forum posts are often visible only by visiting
    the forum.

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  • From VanguardLH@21:1/5 to Alek on Fri Jul 8 07:58:46 2016
    Alek wrote:

    Hash: SHA1

    On Thursday, 07 July 2016 19:19 -0400,
    in article <nlmo2s$5kf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Alek <alek.trishan@gmail.com> wrote:

    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or
    maybe 1986. Is there an archive of emails?

    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Unless you personally archived it, it's history.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

    No.

    There are google groups that contain very old emails. The oldest one I
    found that I had written was dated Feb 1988.

    So there must be others. :-)

    Those are NOT e-mails. E-mail and Usenet are NOT THE SAME method of communication. You specifically asked about e-mails, not about articles published to a mess network of NNTP servers. Stop confusing e-mail and
    Usenet as both being e-mail. They use different protocols, they have
    different retention policies, they have different private versus public behaviors, and probably several other differing traits that I'm not
    going to bother mentioning now. Saying e-mail and Usenet are the same
    is like saying tires and laxatives are the same: both make you go.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet

    So are you asking about e-mails or newsgroup posts?

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  • From David Ritz@21:1/5 to Bruce Esquibel on Fri Jul 8 17:06:09 2016
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    On Friday, 08 July 2016 12:34 -0000,
    in article <nlo6ko$862$1@remote5bge0.ripco.com>,
    Bruce Esquibel <bje@ripco.com> wrote:

    Hans-Georg Michna <hans-georgNoEmailPlease@michna.com> wrote:

    There was a program called 'mail' on most unix boxes but wasn't much
    better than catting the mailbox.

    $ where mail
    /usr/bin/mail

    I'm not sure when programs like elm and mutt came into fashion but
    those only read directly from the mail spool.

    Elm: 1986
    Pine: 1992
    Mutt: 1995
    Alpine: 2007

    $ where mutt
    /usr/local/bin/mutt
    /opt/local/bin/mutt

    $ where alpine
    /usr/local/bin/alpine
    /opt/local/bin/alpine
    /sw/bin/alpine

    - --
    David Ritz <dritz@mindspring.com>
    Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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  • From VanguardLH@21:1/5 to Hans-Georg Michna on Fri Jul 8 08:24:52 2016
    Hans-Georg Michna wrote:

    VanguardLH wrote:

    ... IMAP ...

    Did IMAP even exist in 1988? Did POP exist then?

    Electronic "mail" existed back in the 60's and 70's. Back then, I was
    working on IBM hosts (VSE, VM, AS400) and what they had were called readerlists.

    https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0822.txt (ratified August 13, 1982)
    obsoleted
    https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0733.txt (ratified 21 November 1977)
    which obsoleted
    ... and so on ...

    Those describe the format of the messages, not how they got transported.
    It was to help provide transports that would probably handle messages of
    known format.

    RFCs are established after de facto standards have already been
    established. So e-mail (aka Internet messaging) existed before the RFC suggested how it should be performed.

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc918 (1984)
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1064 (1988)

    Some RFCs are created to define what is. Some are created to define
    what might be but look forward based on something that was. Electronic
    mail is often credited to Ray Tomlinson, an ARPANET contractor, who
    created it back in 1972 (44 years ago) but I'm pretty sure you can find
    other electronic transports for messaging existed before that. E-mail = Electronic Mail, and there have been many transports, technologies, and
    history involved with E-mail.

    The OP never mentioned what e-mail transport protocol he was using back
    in 1986-1988. What transport was or is used for messaging is irrelevant
    to storage of the messages. Your e-mail client has its own message
    store and it doesn't matter if the message got to the client via POP,
    IMAP, SMTP, WebDAV, DeltaSync, EAS, Exchange, or whatever. You don't
    need to know if readerlists, VTAM, TCP, UDP, Ethernet, wire or fiber, or
    wifi were involved to transfer a file to your computer if what you want
    to know is where in the file system in your computer that a file
    resides. He wanted to know *where* might be his old messages, not how
    they got there.

    You are very likely correct that Alek was using IMAP for his e-mail.
    Don't know if he was using POP. Whatever transport protocol he used
    back then doesn't affect his [re]sending those messages now with the
    transport protocols now available, like sending them from one of his
    accounts to another of his account and doing that today for messages
    that are 30 years old.

    After another reply from Alek, it appears it is not old e-mails that he
    is looking for but old Usenet messages - an entirely different
    communications venue that he confused as the same as e-mail. The
    confusion is often caused by noobs who were bred on combination e-mail &
    NNTP clients, like Outlook Express and Thunderbird. It's one client
    supporting multiple protocols but the users sees just 1 client doing it
    all. They start with e-mail, discover Usenet, and think Usenet is
    e-mail.

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  • From Luuk@21:1/5 to Alek on Sat Jul 9 12:08:01 2016
    On 08-07-16 09:59, Alek wrote:
    Alek wrote on 7/8/2016 1:44 AM:
    David Ritz wrote on 7/7/2016 8:49 PM:
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    Hash: SHA1

    On Thursday, 07 July 2016 19:19 -0400,
    in article <nlmo2s$5kf$1@dont-email.me>,
    Alek <alek.trishan@gmail.com> wrote:

    Alek wrote:

    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or
    maybe 1986. Is there an archive of emails?

    Let me rephrase.

    I'm looking ON THE INTERNET for the first email I ever wrote back in
    87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Unless you personally archived it, it's history.

    Is there an archive ON THE INTERNET of emails?

    No.

    There are google groups that contain very old emails. The oldest one I
    found that I had written was dated Feb 1988.

    So there must be others. :-)


    My mistake! What I found was not emails but rather USENET posts. Oldest
    is December 9, 1987.


    if it's only limited to comp.mail.misc: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/alek.trishan$20comp.mail.misc

    the answer would be: July 13, 2014

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  • From Fritz Wuehler@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 03:45:23 2016
    I'm looking for the first email I ever wrote back in 87-88 or maybe 1986.

    Is there an archive of emails?

    If you used Yahoo, there might be a chance :)

    ----------------------------------------
    Judge Orders Yahoo to Explain How It Recovered ‘Deleted’ Emails in Drugs Case

    Written by

    [39]Joseph Cox

    Contributor

    *

    July 22, 2016 // 07:50 AM EST
    Copy This URL

    Image: Shutterstock

    A judge has ordered Yahoo to present a witness and provide documents
    explaining how the company handles supposedly deleted emails.

    The move comes in the appeal case of a drug trafficker who was
    convicted, in part, because of emails Yahoo provided to law enforcement
    that conspirators believed had been deleted.

    Defense lawyers in the case claim that six months of deleted emails
    were recovered—something [40]which Yahoo's policies state is not
    possible. The defense therefore speculates that the emails may have
    instead been collected by real-time interception or an NSA surveillance
    program.

    United States Magistrate Judge Maria-Elena James, from a San Francisco
    court, [41]granted the defense's motion for discovery in an order filed
    on Wednesday.

    [42]The case revolves around Russell Knaggs, from Yorkshire, England,
    and a single Yahoo mail account. In 2009, Knaggs orchestrated a plan to
    import five tonnes of cocaine from South America. At the time, Knaggs
    was already serving a 16-year prison sentence for another drug crime.

    As part of the operation, a collaborator in Colombia would log into the
    email account “slimjim25@ymail.com” and write a draft email. An
    accomplice based in Europe would then read the message, delete it from
    both the “draft” and “trash” folders, and write his own draft, in an
    effort not to leave behind any messages that could later be read by law
    enforcement.

    The defense alleges there should have been nothing for law enforcement to
    find

    Sukhdev Thumber, a solicitor representing Knaggs in the UK proceedings,
    [43]previously told Motherboard that the pair would sometimes simply
    remove the text in the draft with the backspace key, rather than
    deleting the email. Knaggs didn't actually use the account himself.

    After receiving requests from UK police and the FBI in September 2009
    and April 2010, Yahoo created several “snapshots” of the email account,
    preserving its contents at the time—and revealing the messages. But the
    defense alleges there should have been nothing for law enforcement to
    find.

    Yahoo's explanation is that the recovered emails were copies created by
    the [44]email service's “auto-save” feature, which saves data in case
    of a loss of connectivity, for example. The company has filed several
    declarations from a number of its staff, but the defense said some of
    those contradicted each other, and it wants more information.

    The defense requested a half-day deposition and a wide range of
    documents related to the design of Yahoo's email and retention system,
    a copy of the retention software source code, and instruction manuals
    for the peripheral equipment that was used to retrieve the emails.

    But Yahoo has described the request as a “fishing expedition” and
    “unreasonably intrusive.” Judge James agreed somewhat, and instead
    ordered the company to release a more limited list of documents, and
    prepare a witness to talk about specific topics, relating only to the
    email account in question. If necessary, the documents will be filed
    under a protective order.

    Yahoo has until August 31 to produce a witness for the deposition and
    provide any documents.

    Thumber from the defense told Motherboard in an email, "We are very
    pleased with the Judge's decision who was able to see the obvious
    contradictions and problems with Yahoo's explanations. Once we obtain
    the material, the same will be reviewed in order to advance our UK
    appeal."

    Topics: [45]yahoo, [46]email, [47]uk police, [48]FBI, [49]deleted
    emails, [50]crime, [51]Russell Knaggs
    Contact the author by [52]email or [53]Twitter.
    You can reach us at [54]letters@motherboard.tv. Want to see other
    people talking about Motherboard? Check out our [55]letters to the
    editor.

    Recommended

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    Conviction
    [56]How 'Deleted' Yahoo Emails Led to a 20-Year Drug Trafficking
    Conviction
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    References

    Visible links
    1. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/judge-orders-yahoo-to-explain-how-it-recovered-deleted-emails-in-drugs-case

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