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  • Fwd: Friday finking: IDE 'macro expansions'

    From Alan Gauld@21:1/5 to dn via Python-list on Fri Mar 17 17:13:10 2023
    Oops! I meant to send this to the group not just Dave.


    -------- Forwarded Message --------

    On 16/03/2023 22:55, dn via Python-list wrote:

    Do you make use of your IDE's expansionist tendencies, and if-so, which
    ones?

    When I'm writing Java/C++/C# yes, I need all the IDE help I can get.
    Netbeans or Eclipse being my tools of choice. And in my Windows days
    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within
    their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    When writing Python I use IDLE, or vim for bigger jobs.
    IDLE does have some suggestions and auto tricks but I don't
    always use them. In vim I use auto-indent and that's about it.

    --
    Alan G
    Author of the Learn to Program web site
    http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
    http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
    Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Alan Gauld on Fri Mar 17 13:55:37 2023
    On 3/17/2023 1:13 PM, Alan Gauld wrote:
    Oops! I meant to send this to the group not just Dave.


    -------- Forwarded Message --------

    On 16/03/2023 22:55, dn via Python-list wrote:

    Do you make use of your IDE's expansionist tendencies, and if-so, which
    ones?

    When I'm writing Java/C++/C# yes, I need all the IDE help I can get.
    Netbeans or Eclipse being my tools of choice. And in my Windows days
    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within
    their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember
    any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    When writing Python I use IDLE, or vim for bigger jobs.
    IDLE does have some suggestions and auto tricks but I don't
    always use them. In vim I use auto-indent and that's about it.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From MRAB@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Fri Mar 17 18:14:22 2023
    On 2023-03-17 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:
    On 3/17/2023 1:13 PM, Alan Gauld wrote:
    Oops! I meant to send this to the group not just Dave.


    -------- Forwarded Message --------

    On 16/03/2023 22:55, dn via Python-list wrote:

    Do you make use of your IDE's expansionist tendencies, and if-so, which
    ones?

    When I'm writing Java/C++/C# yes, I need all the IDE help I can get.
    Netbeans or Eclipse being my tools of choice. And in my Windows days
    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within
    their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember
    any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    I used Turbo Pascal and then Delphi 3 or 4, back when it was still Borland.

    When writing Python I use IDLE, or vim for bigger jobs.
    IDLE does have some suggestions and auto tricks but I don't
    always use them. In vim I use auto-indent and that's about it.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Gauld@21:1/5 to Thomas Passin on Sat Mar 18 08:46:42 2023
    On 17/03/2023 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:

    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within
    their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember
    any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor. But Delphi from day 1 was an IDE
    designed to compete with Visual Basic. Everything was geared around the
    GUI builder. You could write code outside the IDE but it was orders of magnitude more difficult.

    The Lazarus open source project is based on Delphi's IDE.

    --
    Alan G
    Author of the Learn to Program web site
    http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
    http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
    Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter J. Holzer@21:1/5 to Alan Gauld on Sat Mar 18 13:15:05 2023
    On 2023-03-18 08:46:42 +0000, Alan Gauld wrote:
    On 17/03/2023 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:
    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within
    their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor.

    I'd still classify Turbo Pascal as an IDE. It wasn't a standalone
    compiler you would invoke on source files you wrote with some other
    tool. It was a single program where you would write your code, compile
    it, see the errors directly in the source code. I think it even had a
    debugger which would also use the same editor window (Turbo C did).


    But Delphi from day 1 was an IDE designed to compete with Visual
    Basic. Everything was geared around the GUI builder.

    Turbo Pascal predated GUIs, so it wouldn't have a GUI builder. Also not everything you develop needs a GUI (in fact I haven't written a real application (i.e. not a learning project) with a traditional desktop GUI
    for 20 years) so the presence or absence of a GUI builder isn't an
    essential criterion on whether something is or is not an IDE.

    hp

    --
    _ | Peter J. Holzer | Story must make more sense than reality.
    |_|_) | |
    | | | hjp@hjp.at | -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
    __/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | challenge!"

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  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Peter J. Holzer on Sat Mar 18 09:33:24 2023
    On 3/18/2023 8:15 AM, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    On 2023-03-18 08:46:42 +0000, Alan Gauld wrote:
    On 17/03/2023 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:
    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within >>>> their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember
    any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor.

    I'd still classify Turbo Pascal as an IDE. It wasn't a standalone
    compiler you would invoke on source files you wrote with some other
    tool. It was a single program where you would write your code, compile
    it, see the errors directly in the source code. I think it even had a debugger which would also use the same editor window (Turbo C did).

    Yes, TurboPascal was a brilliant product for its time. And it was much
    cheaper than getting, say, a complete C compiler package, and way easier
    and faster to use.


    But Delphi from day 1 was an IDE designed to compete with Visual
    Basic. Everything was geared around the GUI builder.

    Turbo Pascal predated GUIs, so it wouldn't have a GUI builder. Also not everything you develop needs a GUI (in fact I haven't written a real application (i.e. not a learning project) with a traditional desktop GUI
    for 20 years) so the presence or absence of a GUI builder isn't an
    essential criterion on whether something is or is not an IDE.

    hp



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas Passin@21:1/5 to Alan Gauld on Sat Mar 18 09:29:47 2023
    On 3/18/2023 4:46 AM, Alan Gauld wrote:
    On 17/03/2023 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:

    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within
    their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember
    any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor. But Delphi from day 1 was an IDE
    designed to compete with Visual Basic. Everything was geared around the
    GUI builder. You could write code outside the IDE but it was orders of magnitude more difficult.

    Maybe my memory has faded too much! I remember porting some of my
    TurboPascal code to Delphi and wrapping it with the Delphi-Windows GUI
    instead of my own, pre-Delphi one. The details are hazy, though ...


    The Lazarus open source project is based on Delphi's IDE.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roel Schroeven@21:1/5 to Peter J. Holzer on Sat Mar 18 15:39:34 2023
    Peter J. Holzer schreef op 18/03/2023 om 13:15:
    On 2023-03-18 08:46:42 +0000, Alan Gauld wrote:
    On 17/03/2023 17:55, Thomas Passin wrote:
    I used Delphi and Smalltalk/V which both pretty much only exist within >> their own IDEs and I used their features extensively.

    Back when Delphi first came out, when I first used it, I don't remember any IDE; one just used a text editor.

    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor.

    I'd still classify Turbo Pascal as an IDE. It wasn't a standalone
    compiler you would invoke on source files you wrote with some other
    tool. It was a single program where you would write your code, compile
    it, see the errors directly in the source code. I think it even had a debugger which would also use the same editor window (Turbo C did).

    Oh yes, Turbo Pascal was definitely an IDE. It was actually pretty
    similar to the GUI applications we have today, even though it was all
    text based. It had a menu bar with pull-down menus, it had popup
    windows. The look and feel is pretty similar to that of Midnight
    Commander (mc) nowadays, for those who know that.

    Like you say it had an editor (obviously) and an integrated compiler,
    and indeed an integrated debugger, with watches and all, much like you
    would see in an IDE today. See this screenshot for example: https://daynhauhoc.s3.dualstack.ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/original/3X/7/8/782423b53bb6531d43c3c2075cb4a00f4ac7a5c0.png

    For people too young to have used such semi-graphical applications in
    the past, you can find plenty of screenshots when you do an image search
    for turbo pascal.

    Turbo Pascal was obviously not as advanced as the IDEs we have today,
    but it was definitely an IDE, and it had all the basic functions that
    one would expect from an IDE.

    --
    "Most of us, when all is said and done, like what we like and make up
    reasons for it afterwards."
    -- Soren F. Petersen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Alan Gauld@21:1/5 to Peter J. Holzer on Sat Mar 18 16:06:49 2023
    On 18/03/2023 12:15, Peter J. Holzer wrote:

    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor.

    I'd still classify Turbo Pascal as an IDE. It wasn't a standalone
    compiler you would invoke on source files you wrote with some other

    It had both (although I'm not sure when that was introduced, the
    original didn't). Mostly you used the IDE/editor but there was a
    command line compiler that you could run (and a make-like project
    tool too in the later versions). I started with TurboPascal on DOS
    at Uni generating COM files then later used TP versions 4, 5.5(with
    added OOP!) and 6 professionally, creating EXE file DOS programs.

    Up until I switched to a Mac, a year ago, I still had TP6 and used
    it to maintain some old TurboVision DOS programs.

    But I used Delphi from version 1 through to 7(?) for all my Windows
    programming and still have version 3 installed (via VirtualBox on
    Linux) to keep some old shareware apps of mine running.

    I often think there are a lot of similarities between
    Delphi/Object Pascal and Python in the OOP area.

    it, see the errors directly in the source code. I think it even had a debugger which would also use the same editor window (Turbo C did).

    I think the debugger came in v3, but i could be wrong. I don't
    recall there being one at uni...

    Turbo Pascal predated GUIs, so it wouldn't have a GUI builder.

    No, it did have a windowing toolkit(TurboVision) but no visual UI
    builder. That was the big new feature of Delphi.

    application (i.e. not a learning project) with a traditional desktop GUI
    for 20 years) so the presence or absence of a GUI builder isn't an
    essential criterion on whether something is or is not an IDE.

    Indeed, but it was intrinsic to Delphi (even though you could
    write non GUI apps too, but they required extra effort.)
    Eclipse et al have GUI builders available as extras, in Delphi
    (and Lazurus) it is hard to avoid.

    BTW Delphi (v11) and the other Borland tools are still going strong,
    albeit at extortionately high prices: $1000~3000 for the pro
    versions! (But there is still a free community version with
    just the basics.) See http://www.embarcadero.com
    And it's targeted at multi-platforms now: Windows, MacOS, Android, iOS
    although it only runs on Windows.

    --
    Alan G
    Author of the Learn to Program web site
    http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
    http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
    Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter J. Holzer@21:1/5 to Alan Gauld on Sat Mar 18 19:37:17 2023
    On 2023-03-18 16:06:49 +0000, Alan Gauld wrote:
    On 18/03/2023 12:15, Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    I think you might be meaning TurboPascal, Delphi's forerunner. It just
    had a compiler and text editor.

    I'd still classify Turbo Pascal as an IDE. It wasn't a standalone
    compiler you would invoke on source files you wrote with some other

    It had both

    I didn't mention that because I think it is irrelevant to the question
    whether Turbo Pascal as an IDE or not.

    What is relevant IMNSHO is that it did indeed provide an "integraded environment" for "developing", combining all those tools which were traditionally separate in one user interface.

    Indeed, but it was intrinsic to Delphi (even though you could
    write non GUI apps too, but they required extra effort.)
    Eclipse et al have GUI builders available as extras, in Delphi
    (and Lazurus) it is hard to avoid.

    This is starting to sound like "Delphi is the only True™ IDE".

    hp

    --
    _ | Peter J. Holzer | Story must make more sense than reality.
    |_|_) | |
    | | | hjp@hjp.at | -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
    __/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | challenge!"

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