In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular.4tH has both 2D and 3D graphics libraries. With Turtle graphics. I won't
DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 5:38:08 PM UTC+2, minforth wrote:
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular.4tH has both 2D and 3D graphics libraries. With Turtle graphics. I won't
DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
take the credits for those - it were contributions from a very capable programmer. I added flood fills, circles, ellipses and (quadratic) Bezier curves.
Add Brodie math into the mix and you got yourself some fast graphs.
Hans Bezemer
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 5:38:08 PM UTC+2, minforth wrote:
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular. DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern4tH has both 2D and 3D graphics libraries. With Turtle graphics. I won't take the credits for those - it were contributions from a very capable programmer. I added flood fills, circles, ellipses and (quadratic) Bezier curves.
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
Add Brodie math into the mix and you got yourself some fast graphs.
include examples/gkoch.4thbut nothing happened. Unfortunately, browsing the docs I couldn't find a fool-proof graphics example either, with immediate screen output.
8th also has built-in graphics using OpenGL for output, so it mostly
"just works" on the common OSes and hardware.
Ron AARON schrieb am Dienstag, 18. April 2023 um 05:18:12 UTC+2:
8th also has built-in graphics using OpenGL for output, so it mostly
"just works" on the common OSes and hardware.
Okay. Also SDL2 offers a simpler interface on top of OpenGL ...
Move a mountain to draw a line into sand ...
The time of using just 2 simple matrices as alternating framebuffers
for simple 2D output seems to have passed away for good ...
Hans Bezemer schrieb am Montag, 17. April 2023 um 23:59:31 UTC+2:Oh dear - a developer that works under Windows ;-)
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 5:38:08 PM UTC+2, minforth wrote:
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular. DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.4tH has both 2D and 3D graphics libraries. With Turtle graphics. I won't take the credits for those - it were contributions from a very capable programmer. I added flood fills, circles, ellipses and (quadratic) Bezier curves.
Add Brodie math into the mix and you got yourself some fast graphs.Thanks. I installed 4th on Win11. But your UI really needs getting used to it...
Silly me triedNope. I never said it did. You implied that all by yourself. Note a manual comes along with every package. And it features an installation guide. You probably have to set DIR4TH to the appropriate directory.
include examples/gkoch.4thbut nothing happened. Unfortunately, browsing the docs I couldn't find a fool-proof graphics example either, with immediate screen output.
It seems that you generate ppm-files instead. That's okay, but ISTM thatThat usually is the case with CLI tools. ImageMagix doesn't do that for you either. But PPM is well supported under serious operating systems. The
the user has to send the results to a ppm-viewer manually ????
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
How?
I just stumpled over Atlast-Forth running on a raspberry Pi https://elinux.org/Forth
doing plots in Sixel graphics. Looks nice and easy. However it requires
a Sixel-enabled terminal.
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular.
DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 9:08:59 AM UTC+2, minforth wrote:
Hans Bezemer schrieb am Montag, 17. April 2023 um 23:59:31 UTC+2:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 5:38:08 PM UTC+2, minforth wrote:
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular.4tH has both 2D and 3D graphics libraries. With Turtle graphics. I won't take the credits for those - it were contributions from a very capable programmer. I added flood fills, circles, ellipses and (quadratic) Bezier curves.
DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
Oh dear - a developer that works under Windows ;-)Add Brodie math into the mix and you got yourself some fast graphs.Thanks. I installed 4th on Win11. But your UI really needs getting used to it...
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
How?
I just stumpled over Atlast-Forth running on a raspberry Pi https://elinux.org/Forth
doing plots in Sixel graphics. Looks nice and easy. However it requires
a Sixel-enabled terminal.
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular.
DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you?When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done.
On 18/04/2023 1:38 am, minforth wrote:
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
How?
I just stumpled over Atlast-Forth running on a raspberry Pi https://elinux.org/Forth
doing plots in Sixel graphics. Looks nice and easy. However it requires
a Sixel-enabled terminal.
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular. DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modernThere are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you?
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
Ron AARON schrieb am Dienstag, 18. April 2023 um 05:18:12 UTC+2:
8th also has built-in graphics using OpenGL for output, so it mostlyOkay. Also SDL2 offers a simpler interface on top of OpenGL ...
"just works" on the common OSes and hardware.
Move a mountain to draw a line into sand ...
The time of using just 2 simple matrices as alternating framebuffers
for simple 2D output seems to have passed away for good ...
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
How?
In the olden days graphics with or without turtle had been very popular.
DOS with its simple interfaces made it easy. I don't know any modern
Forth taking at least 2D graphics support seriously.
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 5:38:08 PM UTC+2, minforth wrote:
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
How?
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 5:52:43 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you?When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done.
It was old, had the Pascal window look. It included many scripts for generating
just about any kind of graph, from the spreadsheet data, that one could think of.
I thought to myself if they're throwing away software this well done, then programming
is no longer relevant.
On 18/04/2023 9:36 pm, S Jack wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 5:52:43 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:When researching DOS BGI graphics in the mid 2000's I found plenty of technical
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you?When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done. It was old, had the Pascal window look. It included many scripts for generating
just about any kind of graph, from the spreadsheet data, that one could think of.
I thought to myself if they're throwing away software this well done, then programming
is no longer relevant.
info, geeks writing new drivers etc but very few examples of average programmers
doing graphical apps. Beyond implementing graphics and replicating others' plots
and animations, I can't say I've touched it since. Programming graphics isn't
trivial and, as you say, chances are someone has already done it better. Like
games programming, I'm happy to leave graphics to those who have the patience.
dxforth schrieb am Mittwoch, 19. April 2023 um 05:17:10 UTC+2:
On 18/04/2023 9:36 pm, S Jack wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 5:52:43 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:When researching DOS BGI graphics in the mid 2000's I found plenty of technical
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you? >>> When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done. >>> It was old, had the Pascal window look. It included many scripts for generatingjust about any kind of graph, from the spreadsheet data, that one could think of.
I thought to myself if they're throwing away software this well done, then programming
is no longer relevant.
info, geeks writing new drivers etc but very few examples of average programmers
doing graphical apps. Beyond implementing graphics and replicating others' plots
and animations, I can't say I've touched it since. Programming graphics isn't
trivial and, as you say, chances are someone has already done it better. Like
games programming, I'm happy to leave graphics to those who have the patience.
Requirements for plotting are minimal: lines, text and colours.
Given graphics in forth have been available from at least mid-80's (LMI PC/Forth),
how would you explain the lack of take up?
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:
Given graphics in forth have been available from at least mid-80's (LMI PC/Forth),Been on my list long time; don't think will get to it
how would you explain the lack of take up?
in the life time. Xterm's have a graphic mode that I
never played with to see if it's worth while. For me
when I think of graphics I think of SVG markup and
display in browser, the browser being a universal
graphic display. But again, something I haven't done
much of.
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:
Given graphics in forth have been available from at least mid-80's (LMI PC/Forth),Been on my list long time; don't think will get to it
how would you explain the lack of take up?
in the life time. Xterm's have a graphic mode that I
never played with to see if it's worth while. For me
when I think of graphics I think of SVG markup and
display in browser, the browser being a universal
graphic display. But again, something I haven't done
much of.
On 19/04/2023 7:01 pm, minforth wrote:
dxforth schrieb am Mittwoch, 19. April 2023 um 05:17:10 UTC+2:
On 18/04/2023 9:36 pm, S Jack wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 5:52:43 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:When researching DOS BGI graphics in the mid 2000's I found plenty of technical
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you?When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done. >>> It was old, had the Pascal window look. It included many scripts for generating
just about any kind of graph, from the spreadsheet data, that one could think of.
I thought to myself if they're throwing away software this well done, then programming
is no longer relevant.
info, geeks writing new drivers etc but very few examples of average programmers
doing graphical apps. Beyond implementing graphics and replicating others' plots
and animations, I can't say I've touched it since. Programming graphics isn't
trivial and, as you say, chances are someone has already done it better. Like
games programming, I'm happy to leave graphics to those who have the patience.
Requirements for plotting are minimal: lines, text and colours.Given graphics in forth have been available from at least mid-80's (LMI PC/Forth),
how would you explain the lack of take up?
When researching DOS BGI graphics in the mid 2000's I found plenty of technical
info, geeks writing new drivers etc but very few examples of average programmers
doing graphical apps. Beyond implementing graphics and replicating others' plots
and animations, I can't say I've touched it since. Programming graphics isn't
trivial and, as you say, chances are someone has already done it better. Like
games programming, I'm happy to leave graphics to those who have the patience.
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 10:24:37 AM UTC-4, dxforth wrote:
On 19/04/2023 7:01 pm, minforth wrote:
dxforth schrieb am Mittwoch, 19. April 2023 um 05:17:10 UTC+2:
On 18/04/2023 9:36 pm, S Jack wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 5:52:43 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:When researching DOS BGI graphics in the mid 2000's I found plenty of technical
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you?When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done.
It was old, had the Pascal window look. It included many scripts for generating
just about any kind of graph, from the spreadsheet data, that one could think of.
I thought to myself if they're throwing away software this well done, then programming
is no longer relevant.
info, geeks writing new drivers etc but very few examples of average programmers
doing graphical apps. Beyond implementing graphics and replicating others' plots
and animations, I can't say I've touched it since. Programming graphics isn't
trivial and, as you say, chances are someone has already done it better. Like
games programming, I'm happy to leave graphics to those who have the patience.
Include MacOS MacForth and Neon (1984), both with full support for graphics and GUI (windows, pull down menus, controls, fonts, mouse, related events).Requirements for plotting are minimal: lines, text and colours.Given graphics in forth have been available from at least mid-80's (LMI PC/Forth),
how would you explain the lack of take up?
Perhaps graphics and GUI capability in Forth are like strings, arrays, objects, and other
constructs: Anyone who wants them does it for themself, and in their own way.
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 10:24:37 AM UTC-4, dxforth wrote:
On 19/04/2023 7:01 pm, minforth wrote:
dxforth schrieb am Mittwoch, 19. April 2023 um 05:17:10 UTC+2:Given graphics in forth have been available from at least mid-80's (LMI PC/Forth),
On 18/04/2023 9:36 pm, S Jack wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 5:52:43 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:When researching DOS BGI graphics in the mid 2000's I found plenty of technical
There are no applications today that take your data and plot it for you? >>>>> When first on internet, I found a DOS spreadsheet very very nicely done. >>>>> It was old, had the Pascal window look. It included many scripts for generatingjust about any kind of graph, from the spreadsheet data, that one could think of.
I thought to myself if they're throwing away software this well done, then programming
is no longer relevant.
info, geeks writing new drivers etc but very few examples of average programmers
doing graphical apps. Beyond implementing graphics and replicating others' plots
and animations, I can't say I've touched it since. Programming graphics isn't
trivial and, as you say, chances are someone has already done it better. Like
games programming, I'm happy to leave graphics to those who have the patience.
Requirements for plotting are minimal: lines, text and colours.
how would you explain the lack of take up?
Include MacOS MacForth and Neon (1984), both with full support for graphics and GUI (windows, pull down menus, controls, fonts, mouse, related events).
Perhaps graphics and GUI capability in Forth are like strings, arrays, objects, and other
constructs: Anyone who wants them does it for themself, and in their own way.
On 20/04/2023 9:31 pm, Doug Hoffman wrote:...
Perhaps graphics and GUI capability in Forth are like strings, arrays, objects, and otherGraphics, GUI, HTML etc make for great eye-candy but that's not what drew me to
constructs: Anyone who wants them does it for themself, and in their own way.
computing or keeps my interest. While the general public loves this stuff, it's
incredibly tedious and boring to program. Why one has to pay people to do it.
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 9:26:11 PM UTC-4, dxforth wrote:
On 20/04/2023 9:31 pm, Doug Hoffman wrote:...
A GUI (and often graphics) can greatly benefit those using non-trivial programs written by others.Perhaps graphics and GUI capability in Forth are like strings, arrays, objects, and otherGraphics, GUI, HTML etc make for great eye-candy but that's not what drew me to
constructs: Anyone who wants them does it for themself, and in their own way.
computing or keeps my interest. While the general public loves this stuff, it's
incredibly tedious and boring to program. Why one has to pay people to do it.
Often the software, written to a standard interface, won't even require (much) documentation.
I agree that programming this stuff can be painful which is why I appreciate a Forth that makes it
as easy as possible.
I remember the command-line vs GUI debates back in the mid 1980s. Most software on the
market seem to have a GUI these days. No?
Most software these days runs on smartphones. Everything is GUI'ing there.
GUIs and science graphics are completely different issues. Matlab/SciPy/Octave/Julia don't sport
real GUIs, but engineers/scientist couldn't go far without visualization of results e.g. through
MatPlotLib.
BTW I also found Dislin. It provides a cross-platform plotting library that seems rather easy to use:
https://dislin.de/examples.html
It shouldn't be too difficult to link with and use it from Forth. When I have more time.....
Graphics, GUI, HTML etc make for great eye-candy but that's not what drew me to
computing or keeps my interest. While the general public loves this stuff, it's
incredibly tedious and boring to program. Why one has to pay people to do it.
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 9:26:11 PM UTC-4, dxforth wrote:
On 20/04/2023 9:31 pm, Doug Hoffman wrote:...
Perhaps graphics and GUI capability in Forth are like strings, arrays, objects, and otherGraphics, GUI, HTML etc make for great eye-candy but that's not what drew me to
constructs: Anyone who wants them does it for themself, and in their own way.
computing or keeps my interest. While the general public loves this stuff, it's
incredibly tedious and boring to program. Why one has to pay people to do it.
A GUI (and often graphics) can greatly benefit those using non-trivial programs written by others.
Often the software, written to a standard interface, won't even require (much) documentation.
I agree that programming this stuff can be painful which is why I appreciate a Forth that makes it
as easy as possible.
I remember the command-line vs GUI debates back in the mid 1980s. Most software on the
market seem to have a GUI these days. No?
Is anybody doing (simple) scientific/engineering plotting in Forth?
How?
On Thursday, April 20, 2023 at 8:26:11 PM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:
Graphics, GUI, HTML etc make for great eye-candy but that's not what drew me to
computing or keeps my interest. While the general public loves this stuff, it's
incredibly tedious and boring to program. Why one has to pay people to do it.
For me HTML is fine, without the JavaScript. It and XML
are my second choice after plain text; PDF and PS are
third and fourth. On occasion when I surf, I turn off
JavaScript to look for quality sites.
HTML as a tool for the Everyman to assemble text and pictures ended when FrontPage Express did. Tools today are so complicated they require a
degree to operate. Not that we're expected to ... any more than we're expected to use a word processor today.
Jos Ven showed SVG-made plots too. Control a web server and display the curves anywhere, like a remote terminal. There is some charm to it.
Although on a desktop workstation or laptop it seems like overkill, but
for simple 2D graphics SVG command strings are much easier to use than full-fledged graphics systems like OpenGL.
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