• The Retro Project: practicality of adjusting zx81 FPGA implementation t

    From Wayne morellini@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 4 09:38:01 2022
    I wanted to do a milder retro upgrade to the original zx81 design, as a demonstration of how it could be improved
    simply using the technology of the day.

    If the fan base was there, it could justify doing the product financially. , It's going be too hard to find an 6 micron, or
    whatever they used, lab to do an proof of concept update.

    But, it occured to me, how difficult would it be to modify a zx81 fpga implementation, to simulate the improvments,
    approximately as they could have come out of a fab. The FPGA is basically like a simulator as is?

    What does anybody with expertise thought?

    I've had bad liver problems now, and have to cut back daily spend to $10-$20AU a day, to make it through. Fortunately
    I've stocked up on other treatments previously. $10 here, probably buys you $3.33 or something spending power in
    the US. So, this stuff is going into the too much basket If I find somebody who has done a zx81 fpga, who would like
    to implement the mods, that would be sufficient to show things, and you never know, maybe implement a bxx or p16
    or something, as well as the z80.

    I've got some innovative graphic mode and sound ideas. Colour, colour modes, graphic tiling based on real 0% CPU
    graphic mode rendering, a simple graphic object alternative, screen scrolling, native vector line drawing, maybe not,
    512 horizontal resolution, and enhanced sound. The spectrum is really the zx82, but things could have been fine
    better again, with IR control and cheap program card system. Looking at the Zx81 colour adaptor footage and
    various Vic20 games, it's obvious the ZX80 could have been a much better computer and games system, even in the
    mid 1970's. A real opportunity in targeted development was missed in 1980 (before anybody objects, just realised
    that console games of the period had lots of empty space without details, that, with tiling only the tiles used need a
    graphic image, and elements can be reused for game objects and play field construction, using little memory, and
    the cheap cards could store a large read only image.

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  • From Zbig@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 5 06:06:27 2022
    I've got some innovative graphic mode and sound ideas. Colour, colour modes, graphic tiling based on real 0% CPU
    graphic mode rendering, a simple graphic object alternative, screen scrolling, native vector line drawing, maybe not,
    512 horizontal resolution, and enhanced sound.

    If it's about „retro-computing” the better idea will be to acquire
    old XT-clone mobo, ISA 8-bit VGA and AdLib soundcard. You'll get
    a machine you've described — featuring higher capabilities and
    powerful ML. And with plenty of software already available,
    many books that describe the system etc.

    If not — you may want to select something already available at
    Tindie, like RC2014 ( https://www.tindie.com/products/semachthemonkey/rc2014-pro-homebrew-z80-computer-kit/ )
    or anything similar (several designs available there for a few bucks).

    Of course plenty of similar SBCs designs can be found just by googling
    for „SBC computer”, like:
    http://searle.wales/ https://sites.google.com/site/retroelec/retroelecs-electronics-projects/r162 …and many others.

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  • From Wayne morellini@21:1/5 to Zbig on Mon Sep 5 18:04:51 2022
    On Monday, September 5, 2022 at 11:06:30 PM UTC+10, Zbig wrote:
    I've got some innovative graphic mode and sound ideas. Colour, colour modes, graphic tiling based on real 0% CPU
    graphic mode rendering, a simple graphic object alternative, screen scrolling, native vector line drawing, maybe not,
    512 horizontal resolution, and enhanced sound.
    If it's about „retro-computing” the better idea will be to acquire
    old XT-clone mobo, ISA 8-bit VGA and AdLib soundcard. You'll get
    a machine you've described — featuring higher capabilities and
    powerful ML. And with plenty of software already available,
    many books that describe the system etc.

    If not — you may want to select something already available at
    Tindie, like RC2014 ( https://www.tindie.com/products/semachthemonkey/rc2014-pro-homebrew-z80-computer-kit/ )
    or anything similar (several designs available there for a few bucks).

    Of course plenty of similar SBCs designs can be found just by googling
    for „SBC computer”, like:
    http://searle.wales/ https://sites.google.com/site/retroelec/retroelecs-electronics-projects/r162 …and many others.

    Albert reread the thread. It's never about what you said. It's about simulating what
    could actually have been done to a design that has nothing to do with a system at
    10x+ the price (just for the monochrome version probably) and Les capable in the
    Cpu department, once you add a p16 etc in. You can then establish historically what
    Could have been done. A zx spectrum like configuration with enhancements could have been done instead of the ZX80 even. That would have made it difficult for the
    Commodore machines. This is a comparative alternative design history study,
    as well as an authentic new product option. :)

    Commodore actually put in the effort in the Commodore 64. The team had members
    who had been pushing for home computers since the 1960's. They had the right place and the to do it, and actually borrowed from a heap of design ideas in use out
    there (but why they didn't have at least switchable alternative pallets, is a mystery.
    The Commodore had an slightly odd and murky pallet compared to some other lesser systems, robbing them of sales, and keeping others alive. Compared to the
    tile based system I'm advocating (with better case keyboard) the Commodore 64 could have struggled against, with it's tile system and pallet, once you made a 64KB
    version. The second largest selling computer of the time, the ZX Spectrum, whoes sales
    were mainly outside the US, in turn would have struggled, against Commodore 64 if they
    had they made some more low keyed improvements.
    The Vic 20 was cobbled together with an old graphics
    design they had from the 1970's before the Vic 2 chip was ready, from memory. But,
    the subsequent Atari 7800 graphics chip set was way Ahead, and showed what Commodore could have done, as it was done by a professional arcade game
    hardware company (not Atari themselves) incorporating a lot of good design, not a
    smattering of ideas from the industry by outsiders. My understanding is now such, as
    to see how a step ahead of this, on an entirely new design, could have been done,
    and started since the mid 1970's. As Chuck Jeff and me were of a latter period, no
    Palo Alto computer game system. :). It's indeed sad that Chuck's designs did not come
    out in the early 1980's or 1970's, that would be the time to get into the home
    computer market, as it was before requirements got complex coming up to Unix,
    PS2, more advanced Windows, Amiga etc, when things were still a simple
    single program single user flat space programming model. That in turn, means profit,
    to implement more advanced features.

    You could extend all these if you had the knowledge we have now applied to
    processes then, to make a digital video interface over RCA, to put advanced AV equipment, including
    computers, into higher end TV's. Which would have been a major improvement for VCR
    and laser discs too.

    It requires an elegant mind to design anything ahead properly, and the people who
    object should follow.

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  • From Zbig@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 6 06:53:46 2022
    Albert reread the thread. It's never about what you said. It's about simulating what
    could actually have been done to a design that has nothing to do with a system at
    10x+ the price (just for the monochrome version probably) and Les capable in the
    Cpu department, once you add a p16 etc in.
    [..]
    It requires an elegant mind to design anything ahead properly, and the people who
    object should follow.

    In such case you may want to join „8-bit Guy” 's project: https://www.commanderx16.com/

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  • From Wayne morellini@21:1/5 to Zbig on Tue Sep 6 11:44:22 2022
    On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 11:53:48 PM UTC+10, Zbig wrote:
    Albert reread the thread. It's never about what you said. It's about simulating what
    could actually have been done to a design that has nothing to do with a system at
    10x+ the price (just for the monochrome version probably) and Les capable in the
    Cpu department, once you add a p16 etc in.
    [..]
    It requires an elegant mind to design anything ahead properly, and the people who
    object should follow.
    In such case you may want to join „8-bit Guy” 's project: https://www.commanderx16.com/

    I seen his videos. Why would you want to join his project when you are talking about advice
    on the practicalities of realistically simulating customisations of a design on an original fab
    process by extending a seperate image for a different system, as a new entity?

    I see you were here in 2018 with a commodore 64. Then the friction over retro computing?
    You also were talking differently back then. What happened?

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  • From Zbig@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 6 13:55:14 2022
    I seen his videos. Why would you want to join his project when you are talking about advice
    on the practicalities of realistically simulating customisations of a design on an original fab
    process by extending a seperate image for a different system, as a new entity?

    Because his design still isn't „carved in stone” and there are still discussions
    going on about ev. use of FPGA: https://www.commanderx16.com/forum/index.php?/search/&q=fpga&quick=1

    Then, who knows, maybe you'll be able to „redirect” that project?

    I see you were here in 2018 with a commodore 64. Then the friction over retro computing?
    You also were talking differently back then. What happened?

    Differently? Maybe just being somewhat less Commodore-enthusiastic today; since I started
    to learn x86 ML I found out what the gap is between the world of 6502 and x86 — a real rift,
    actually.
    Despite the fact, that — initially — C64 was actually faster than that original IBM 5150.

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  • From Wayne morellini@21:1/5 to Zbig on Tue Sep 6 14:44:58 2022
    On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 6:55:16 AM UTC+10, Zbig wrote:
    I seen his videos. Why would you want to join his project when you are talking about advice
    on the practicalities of realistically simulating customisations of a design on an original fab
    process by extending a seperate image for a different system, as a new entity?
    Because his design still isn't „carved in stone” and there are still discussions
    going on about ev. use of FPGA: https://www.commanderx16.com/forum/index.php?/search/&q=fpga&quick=1

    Then, who knows, maybe you'll be able to „redirect” that project?

    Well, I thought that wasn't about the zx81. I'm not interested in redirecting his project.
    If it was a zx81 only project, maybe I would be interested in "collaboration" to extend
    it's feature set modestly, in a way they could have done in 1981. But, the guy has his
    full wiz bang system already instead. I wouldn't think he would be at all interested in
    anything past a straight up side emulation of the standard zx81 hardware and chroma
    mod etc (which works spectacularly well and is fpga based).

    I see you were here in 2018 with a commodore 64. Then the friction over retro computing?
    You also were talking differently back then. What happened?
    Differently? Maybe just being somewhat less Commodore-enthusiastic today; since I started
    to learn x86 ML I found out what the gap is between the world of 6502 and x86 — a real rift,
    actually.
    Despite the fact, that — initially — C64 was actually faster than that original IBM 5150.

    I knew that already, and it's not relevant to the hobby field. It's like saying why have Apples
    when you can have IBM's, or Oranges. People eat fruit for the flavour they want at the
    moment. This thread is asking for specific technical advice on the difficulties in converting
    such a complex fpga simulation into something new through additions. As such, I expect to
    only hear from people with experience or knowledge about this.

    You'll be happy to know, that the other filter project targets the Commodore 64 pallet and
    Video quality issues (I always hide the depth of any thing significant I want to do
    commercially. So, that is only part of it). The Commodore 64 had a funny pallet, which was
    Redone in latter versions. However, it would be good if changed more. However, I'm taking
    that in a new direction incorporating it with one of my main projects. Which might give the
    latter s bit of a start. Realistically, the best thing would be to go back to when the 64 was
    released, start popping out chips and replacing them with improved ones, or at least put a
    daughter card in the socket with the original chip and an improvement chip, and sell that
    back to Commodore after release. But we only have what we got. The zx81 just represents
    a really basic machine with a sizable historical significance and former user base now,
    which could have come out years before and have been vastly better. So, it shows the
    greatest difference. You can't normally make a living with a succession of sales in complex
    expensive things, without working out where the profit is coming from and how to afford things.

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