• MS going to rust (and Linux too)

    From Dmitry A. Kazakov@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 24 09:52:34 2022
    Apparently Microsoft does not want to use C/C++ anymore:

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-its-time-to-stop-using-c-and-c-for-new-projects-says-microsoft-azure-cto

    and going to Rust. No word about glorious VBA and illustrious C#,
    though. The best ever inventions of computing era deserve no mention...
    (:-))

    Ah, GC does not sit well with them, who might think? (:-))

    BTW, It seems that Linux kernel will rust as well...

    --
    Regards,
    Dmitry A. Kazakov
    http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

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  • From Luke A. Guest@21:1/5 to Dmitry A. Kazakov on Sat Sep 24 09:50:33 2022
    On 24/09/2022 08:52, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
    Apparently Microsoft does not want to use C/C++ anymore:

    Yeah, they're 20 years behind, I came to that conclusion then.

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/programming-languages-its-time-to-stop-using-c-and-c-for-new-projects-says-microsoft-azure-cto

    Well, people and companies will follow like sheep.

    and going to Rust. No word about glorious VBA and illustrious C#,
    though. The best ever inventions of computing era deserve no mention...
    (:-))

    They'll stay as they are but likely will move to being implemented in rust.

    Ah, GC does not sit well with them, who might think? (:-))

    Go is weird.

    BTW, It seems that Linux kernel will rust as well...


    There was conversation about using zig as well a while ago.

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  • From Dmitry A. Kazakov@21:1/5 to Luke A. Guest on Sat Sep 24 11:13:07 2022
    On 2022-09-24 10:50, Luke A. Guest wrote:

    and going to Rust. No word about glorious VBA and illustrious C#,
    though. The best ever inventions of computing era deserve no
    mention... (:-))

    They'll stay as they are but likely will move to being implemented in rust.

    I bet MS-Rust gets written in QBasic... (:-))

    BTW, It seems that Linux kernel will rust as well...

    There was conversation about using zig as well a while ago.

    This one is from Linus himself.

    Anyway, as expected, since computing resources begin actively
    stagnating, damn, even a used rusted (no pun intended (:-)) 3 years old
    HDD is twice more expensive now, the SW industry slowly turns away from
    well established practices of not caring about performance, efficiency,
    quality etc. I wonder, who will first dare proclaim that Agile was
    trash... (:-))

    --
    Regards,
    Dmitry A. Kazakov
    http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

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  • From Gautier write-only address@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 24 04:09:48 2022
    Sounds like "U.S. Department of Defense going to Ada" :-) ...

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  • From G.B.@21:1/5 to Dmitry A. Kazakov on Sat Sep 24 13:41:24 2022
    On 24.09.22 11:13, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
    On 2022-09-24 10:50, Luke A. Guest wrote:

    and going to Rust. (...)
    I wonder, who will first dare proclaim that [xyz] was trash... (:-))

    Won't it be the presenter to use [xyz] in an economically informed
    speech about a new trendy replacement that is already a thing.

    Trash in systems obeys a universal law, familiar to every consultant.
    That it piles up, and while leading to stagnation, trash also
    creates opportunities
    - for oblivion,
    - for cleaning out and
    - for rebuilding.
    A fresh start.

    As a starting point, Rust has the fine mechanisms that will
    facilitate turning the language into a generator of
    consumable goods, including itself. It is, therefore,
    economically viable.
    By design, Rust meets many a business demand, since it doesn't stop
    at just technical ideas, of which it inherits many.


    Write a really good driver for Linux using Ada 2012 and do not use
    capital letters in the source text, at least where Linux doesn't.
    Be silent about the language. Can an Adaist do that, to save the
    language?

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  • From Dmitry A. Kazakov@21:1/5 to G.B. on Sat Sep 24 14:31:38 2022
    On 2022-09-24 13:41, G.B. wrote:

    Write a really good driver for Linux using Ada 2012 and do not use
    capital letters in the source text, at least where Linux doesn't.
    Be silent about the language. Can an Adaist do that, to save the
    language?

    The song remains same. No, Python need not to have Linux drivers in
    order to be hugely popular, like the Herpes virus need not to be...

    And it is not about Ada. It is about a potentially turning point as the
    SW developing process hits certain limits one ignored before. Selling
    hot air is a very respectable and profitable activity, but in this case
    the reality begin showing its ugly bigotry face. Though Ada could
    provide some answers, it is not in the game anyway. Nevertheless, things
    become interesting...

    --
    Regards,
    Dmitry A. Kazakov
    http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

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  • From Nasser M. Abbasi@21:1/5 to Dmitry A. Kazakov on Sat Sep 24 07:46:46 2022
    On 9/24/2022 2:52 AM, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:


    BTW, It seems that Linux kernel will rust as well...


    fyi;

    This is a link that talks about using rust in linux kernel

    "Linux embracing Rust will boost robotics community"

    "Linus Torvalds mentioned that the Rust programming
    language would be used in the upcoming Linux 6.1 kernel"

    <https://www.therobotreport.com/linux-embracing-rust-will-boost-robotics-community/>

    What I do not understand is, why not Ada instead of rust?
    I thought Ada was designed for embedded low level software.

    May be it is just more verbose than rust, and do not use {}.

    --Nasser

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  • From Luke A. Guest@21:1/5 to G.B. on Sat Sep 24 14:05:14 2022
    On 24/09/2022 12:41, G.B. wrote:

    Write a really good driver for Linux using Ada 2012 and do not use
    capital letters in the source text, at least where Linux doesn't.
    Be silent about the language. Can an Adaist do that, to save the
    language?

    The biggest problem is that the compiled runtime is compiler version
    dependent and the pain of making a runtime for linux kernel dev
    available for each and every compiler version, remember these things can
    also change on a version change too.

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  • From Dmitry A. Kazakov@21:1/5 to Nasser M. Abbasi on Sat Sep 24 15:36:07 2022
    On 2022-09-24 14:46, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

    What I do not understand is, why not Ada instead of rust?
    I thought Ada was designed for embedded low level software.

    Look it this way. If Linus was not aware 30 years ago that there were
    better OSes than UNIX and better languages than C, why should he
    suddenly do now?

    May be it is just more verbose than rust, and do not use {}.

    It is never technical. You can try to rationalize your preference
    afterwards, but in reality it is free will at play, even in the case of choosing Ada.

    --
    Regards,
    Dmitry A. Kazakov
    http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

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  • From G.B.@21:1/5 to Dmitry A. Kazakov on Sat Sep 24 19:56:02 2022
    On 24.09.22 15:36, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

    Look it this way. If Linus was not aware 30 years ago that there were better OSes than UNIX and better languages than C, why should he suddenly do now?

    Why not? He is actually talking about Rust, given C.

    It is never technical.

    It needs to be technical to some extent.
    Suggesting to write a kernel in Python would
    encounter some technical opposition.

    You can try to rationalize your preference afterwards, but in reality it is free will at play, even in the case of choosing Ada.

    The point is that it's not free will.
    It seems about choice and about what drives choice.
    Some very old job descriptions very sincerely
    include "manipulating public opinion".

    Think "Ada mandate"... Or better, don't, just don't.

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  • From Emmanuel Briot@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 24 10:29:54 2022
    There is also a lot more emphases on performance in the Rust world than in the Ada world. Part of this is due to resources, but a lot has to do with how the language itself is defined unfortunately.
    People working on the linux kernel are definitely interested in performance (and remember they are using any programming language is a significantly different fashion than other programmers).
    People coming from C++ likely initially chose that language because it was advertised as the most performant.

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  • From G.B.@21:1/5 to Luke A. Guest on Sat Sep 24 19:49:19 2022
    On 24.09.22 15:05, Luke A. Guest wrote:
    On 24/09/2022 12:41, G.B. wrote:

    Write a really good driver for Linux using Ada 2012 and do not use
    capital letters in the source text, at least where Linux doesn't.
    Be silent about the language. Can an Adaist do that, to save the
    language?

    The biggest problem is that the compiled runtime is compiler version dependent and the pain of making a runtime for linux kernel dev available for each and every compiler version, remember these things can also change on a version change too.

    Won't the Ada run-time need very little?
    Even the full Ravenscar profile seems to offer too much,
    as, for example, Linux kernel drivers need no Ada tasking
    at all. Would I want Ada exceptions in drivers?
    And to hell with Ada Strings and non-kernel I/O ;-)

    If a "kernel-profiled" flavor of protected types will be
    an interesting approach to handling events and race
    conditions, by basing protected objects on kernel primitives,
    then I imagine their implementation to be another nice one
    _not_ to brag about, but to just use. Every language is adding
    "await" and "async", Java has gone lower than "synchronized"
    many versions ago. Every language is not just catching up,
    from users' POV...

    Ada 2022 is full of popular niceties (cf. "Ada 2022 Overview posted").
    Combine them with added insight into program properties
    when using SPARK and similar features. The resulting language
    needs no mention of the name "Ada" at all in order to be convincing.

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  • From Dmitry A. Kazakov@21:1/5 to G.B. on Sat Sep 24 21:07:01 2022
    On 2022-09-24 19:56, G.B. wrote:
    On 24.09.22 15:36, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

    Look it this way. If Linus was not aware 30 years ago that there were
    better OSes than UNIX and better languages than C, why should he
    suddenly do now?

    Why not? He is actually talking about Rust, given C.

    He is just growing old... (:-))

    It is never technical.

    It needs to be technical to some extent.

    To some very infinitesimal extent. Actually my point was that the extent
    has an obvious tendency to grow now. Which is why we observe knee-jerk reactions from some weaklings... (:-))

    Suggesting to write a kernel in Python would
    encounter some technical opposition.

    Honestly? The next generation will fully embrace Python as soon the last
    of the old farts retire. Linux held way too long, IMO... (:-))

    You can try to rationalize your preference afterwards, but in reality
    it is free will at play, even in the case of choosing Ada.

    The point is that it's not free will.
    It seems about choice and about what drives choice.

    Huh, in not so distant future I expect drivers using HTTP to communicate
    inside the kernel encoding data in JSON and XML and written in Java
    script... I am almost serious. This garbage triumphally marches across
    embedded world right now, so no smiley.

    --
    Regards,
    Dmitry A. Kazakov
    http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

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  • From Luke A. Guest@21:1/5 to G.B. on Sat Sep 24 21:38:03 2022
    On 24/09/2022 18:49, G.B. wrote:
    On 24.09.22 15:05, Luke A. Guest wrote:
    On 24/09/2022 12:41, G.B. wrote:

    Write a really good driver for Linux using Ada 2012 and do not use
    capital letters in the source text, at least where Linux doesn't.
    Be silent about the language. Can an Adaist do that, to save the
    language?

    The biggest problem is that the compiled runtime is compiler version
    dependent and the pain of making a runtime for linux kernel dev
    available for each and every compiler version, remember these things
    can also change on a version change too.

    Won't the Ada run-time need very little?

    You would need to generate bindings to the linux header files per release.

    1) I guarantee you he will have a hissy fit over having to have a
    bootstrap compiler.
    2) Likely another hissy fit because gcc's binding generator has a
    propensity for stripping out names and replacing them with useless
    "arg*" type identifiers.

    There are likely some small parts you might want, maybe a small
    secondary stack? Partial interfaces.c packages.

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  • From Simon Wright@21:1/5 to Luke A. Guest on Sat Sep 24 22:18:32 2022
    "Luke A. Guest" <laguest@archeia.com> writes:

    2) Likely another hissy fit because gcc's binding generator has a
    propensity for stripping out names and replacing them with useless
    "arg*" type identifiers.

    g++'s binding generator makes a (somewhat) better job, I found

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  • From G.B.@21:1/5 to Dmitry A. Kazakov on Sun Sep 25 09:13:23 2022
    On 24.09.22 21:07, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:

    Huh, in not so distant future I expect drivers using HTTP to communicate inside the kernel encoding data in JSON and XML and written in Java script... I am almost serious. This garbage triumphally marches across embedded world right now, so no smiley.

    Example:
    DNS over HTTP. Done because when HTTP is secured using TLS,
    it still allows for proxy servers to intercept in an already
    sanctioned way.

    If the technically minded were to speak against this setup,
    then a convincing argument is required.
    Specifically, the argument needs to present an alternative
    solution to be economically and politically more valuable
    than DNS-over-HTTP whilst also preserving the proxies'
    capabilities (economically and politically).

    In case you have a suggestion in favor of DNSSEC, say,
    please disseminate.

    There is a tricky bit, though. DNSSEC must look better on
    all accounts than buying DNS-over-HTTP appliances.
    Given some background noise generated by complaints about
    performance, speed might become an influential factor.

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?C=C3=B3il=C3=ADn_Niocl=C3@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 19 18:28:17 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, G.B. wrote:
    "[. . .]

    Write a really good driver for Linux using Ada 2012 and do not use
    capital letters in the source text, at least where Linux doesn't.
    Be silent about the language. Can an Adaist do that, to save the
    language?"

    Hi,

    Many Linux drivers have code clones. Code cloning saves nothing.

    With best regards.
    Nioclás Pól Caileán de Ghloucester

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Niocl=C3=A1s_P=C3=B3l_Cai@21:1/5 to Nasser M. Abbasi on Sat Apr 20 14:32:12 2024
    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    On Sat, 24 Sep 2022, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
    "On 2022-09-24 14:46, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

    What I do not understand is, why not Ada instead of rust?
    I thought Ada was designed for embedded low level software.

    Look it this way. If Linus was not aware 30 years ago that there were better OSes than UNIX and better languages than C, why should he suddenly do now?

    May be it is just more verbose than rust, and do not use {}.

    It is never technical. You can try to rationalize your preference afterwards, but in reality it is free will at play"

    Dear Dr. Kazakov and Dr. Abbasi,

    I positively cite you in e.g. HTTPS://SalesForce-EU.123FormBuilder.com/upload_dld.php?fileid=8f38e2adbd433c5d12509c99f1733db8

    G. B. wrote:
    "[. . .]
    Suggesting to write a kernel in Python would
    encounter some technical opposition.

    [. . .]

    [. . .]
    It seems about choice and about what drives choice.
    Some very old job descriptions very sincerely
    include "manipulating public opinion"."

    With best regards.
    Nioclás Pól Caileán de Ghloucester

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