• Does the call from P() to H() specify infinite recursion?

    From olcott@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 11 10:00:36 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, comp.lang.c, comp.software-eng

    #define ptr uintptr_t

    void P(ptr x)
    {
    H(x, x);
    }

    int H(ptr x, ptr y)
    {
    ((void(*)(ptr))x)(y);
    return 1;
    }

    int main()
    {
    H((ptr)P, (ptr)P);
    return 0;
    }

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Marcel Mueller on Thu Nov 11 12:52:52 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, comp.lang.c, comp.software-eng

    On 11/11/2021 12:01 PM, Marcel Mueller wrote:
    Am 11.11.21 um 17:00 schrieb olcott:
    #define ptr uintptr_t

    void P(ptr x)
    {
       H(x, x);
    }

    int H(ptr x, ptr y)
    {
       ((void(*)(ptr))x)(y);
       return 1;
    }

    int main()
    {
       H((ptr)P, (ptr)P);
       return 0;
    }

    Besides the fact that there is no good reason to write that type unsafe
    code in C++ did you test it? The code will never compile because of the forward reference to H.

    And well, H calls P and P calls H. What do you expect?


    Marcel

    Yes the code does compile and I did test it.
    This is the pure C part of my halting theorem refutation. I wanted to
    get some C experts to weigh in on the the analysis of the C code.

    I won't be discussing anything besides the pure C aspects here because
    people here get upset.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Thu Nov 11 14:16:33 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, comp.lang.c

    On 11/11/2021 2:11 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 11/11/21 2:59 PM, olcott wrote:


    I embedded the above in a whole other program so these "errors"
    were corrected in code that I did not know about.

    In other words, you don't know how to do a controlled experiment so we
    really need to deman FULL disclosure of exactly what you are doing
    before we can accept any 'experimental' evidence.

    You are writing your obituary here.

    Don't say that. I have terminal cancer in its advanced stages.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From Ben Bacarisse@21:1/5 to Jeff Barnett on Thu Nov 11 20:25:40 2021
    XPost: comp.lang.c

    Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> writes:

    On 11/11/2021 11:01 AM, Marcel Mueller wrote:

    The code will never compile because of the forward reference to H.
    And well, H calls P and P calls H. What do you expect?

    However many programing languages allow 'mutual recursion" and it's
    very useful.

    Just in case there is any confusion, both C and C++ allow mutual
    recursion.

    --
    Ben.

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  • From Juha Nieminen@21:1/5 to NoOne@nowhere.com on Fri Nov 12 07:37:40 2021
    In comp.lang.c++ olcott <NoOne@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 11/11/2021 6:47 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
    Marcel Mueller <news.5.maazl@spamgourmet.org> writes:

    Besides the fact that there is no good reason to write that type
    unsafe code in C++ did you test it? The code will never compile
    because of the forward reference to H.

    And well, H calls P and P calls H. What do you expect?

    He's imagining he can solve the Halting Problem if he uses the x86
    instruction set instead of a Turing Machine. Many people have tried to
    explain the flaws in his argument; he doesn't listen. There is nothing
    to do but killfile him.


    Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one
    else can see.

    Arthur Schopenhauer

    People that cannot see the target are unqualified to judge hits from
    misses.

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and someone
    solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics? Pretty much every
    single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can be expressed as a
    computer program could be solved just like that. The Riemann hypothesis? Solved. The Collatz conjecture? Solved. All the Millenium Prize Problems? Solved. You becoming a millionaire by merely solving all these problems
    would be peanuts compared to the mathematical revolution that this would
    cause.

    Of course mathematicians are not stupid. When they have proven that the
    halting problem is unsolvable, they know what they are talking about.
    No amount of Dunning-Krugerisms is going to change that.

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  • From wij@21:1/5 to Juha Nieminen on Fri Nov 12 02:41:01 2021
    On Friday, 12 November 2021 at 15:37:56 UTC+8, Juha Nieminen wrote:
    In comp.lang.c++ olcott <No...@nowhere.com> wrote:
    On 11/11/2021 6:47 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
    Marcel Mueller <news.5...@spamgourmet.org> writes:

    Besides the fact that there is no good reason to write that type
    unsafe code in C++ did you test it? The code will never compile
    because of the forward reference to H.

    And well, H calls P and P calls H. What do you expect?

    He's imagining he can solve the Halting Problem if he uses the x86
    instruction set instead of a Turing Machine. Many people have tried to
    explain the flaws in his argument; he doesn't listen. There is nothing
    to do but killfile him.


    Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one
    else can see.

    Arthur Schopenhauer

    People that cannot see the target are unqualified to judge hits from misses.
    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and someone solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics? Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can be expressed as a
    computer program could be solved just like that. The Riemann hypothesis? Solved. The Collatz conjecture? Solved. All the Millenium Prize Problems? Solved. You becoming a millionaire by merely solving all these problems
    would be peanuts compared to the mathematical revolution that this would cause.

    Of course mathematicians are not stupid. When they have proven that the halting problem is unsolvable, they know what they are talking about.
    No amount of Dunning-Krugerisms is going to change that.

    I think he won't understand. Because I saw his arguments indicating that
    he even get the truth table of logical AND/Implication wrong.

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  • From Tim Rentsch@21:1/5 to Juha Nieminen on Sat Nov 13 10:24:24 2021
    Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.
    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Tim Rentsch on Sat Nov 13 12:34:07 2021
    XPost: comp.theory

    On 11/13/2021 12:24 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.

    I do understand that is simply not the way it works.
    If you want to continue discussing this reply to the follow-up group.

    Flibble agrees that I am correct:
    [Why has the argument with Olcott gone on for so long?]
    On 11/13/2021 10:57 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
    Because the halting problem as defined is a category error: only
    Olcott sees this and the rest of you are blind to it. Classic outcome
    of failing to recognize a category error is an argument that goes
    nowhere and never ends.

    /Flibble




    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?



    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

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  • From Tim Woodall@21:1/5 to Tim Rentsch on Sat Nov 13 19:09:15 2021
    On 2021-11-13, Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
    Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.
    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?

    #include <halting.h>

    auto collatzN = [](int i) {
    while (i != 1) {
    if (i&1) i = 3 * i + 1;
    else i /= 2;
    }

    auto collatz = []() {
    int n = 1;
    while(1) {
    if (!HALTS(collatzN(n)))
    return n;
    ++n;
    }
    }

    int main() {
    if (HALTS(collatz())) {
    std::cout << "conjecture is false." << std::endl;
    std::cout << "finding smallest counterexample" << std::endl;
    std::cout << collatz() << std::endl;
    } else {
    std::cout << "conjecture is true." << std::endl;
    }
    }


    Obviously there are much more efficient ways of finding the smallest counterexample if you have HALTS but I think this answers your question.

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  • From Richard Damon@21:1/5 to Tim Rentsch on Sat Nov 13 16:04:30 2021
    On 11/13/21 3:48 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Tim Woodall <news001@woodall.me.uk> writes:

    On 2021-11-13, Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:

    Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.
    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?

    #include <halting.h>

    auto collatzN = [](int i) {
    while (i != 1) {
    if (i&1) i = 3 * i + 1;
    else i /= 2;
    }

    auto collatz = []() {
    int n = 1;
    while(1) {
    if (!HALTS(collatzN(n)))
    return n;
    ++n;
    }
    }

    int main() {
    if (HALTS(collatz())) {
    std::cout << "conjecture is false." << std::endl;
    std::cout << "finding smallest counterexample" << std::endl;
    std::cout << collatz() << std::endl;
    } else {
    std::cout << "conjecture is true." << std::endl;
    }
    }


    Obviously there are much more efficient ways of finding the
    smallest counterexample if you have HALTS but I think this
    answers your question.

    Nice formulation. The idea of nested calls to HALTS did not
    occur to me. Also the idea of being able to call HALTS on
    a particular function, rather than the program as a whole,
    is a useful one, and not one I remember seeing before (at
    least not so clearly).

    A hearty round of applause and thank yous.


    The key is you call Halts on what could be A program (and each function,
    when combined with HALTS is able to be a 'program')

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  • From Tim Rentsch@21:1/5 to Tim Woodall on Sat Nov 13 12:48:47 2021
    Tim Woodall <news001@woodall.me.uk> writes:

    On 2021-11-13, Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:

    Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it, it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.
    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?

    #include <halting.h>

    auto collatzN = [](int i) {
    while (i != 1) {
    if (i&1) i = 3 * i + 1;
    else i /= 2;
    }

    auto collatz = []() {
    int n = 1;
    while(1) {
    if (!HALTS(collatzN(n)))
    return n;
    ++n;
    }
    }

    int main() {
    if (HALTS(collatz())) {
    std::cout << "conjecture is false." << std::endl;
    std::cout << "finding smallest counterexample" << std::endl;
    std::cout << collatz() << std::endl;
    } else {
    std::cout << "conjecture is true." << std::endl;
    }
    }


    Obviously there are much more efficient ways of finding the
    smallest counterexample if you have HALTS but I think this
    answers your question.

    Nice formulation. The idea of nested calls to HALTS did not
    occur to me. Also the idea of being able to call HALTS on
    a particular function, rather than the program as a whole,
    is a useful one, and not one I remember seeing before (at
    least not so clearly).

    A hearty round of applause and thank yous.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Tim Rentsch@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Sat Nov 13 13:49:27 2021
    Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:

    On 11/13/21 3:48 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:

    Nice formulation. The idea of nested calls to HALTS did not
    occur to me. Also the idea of being able to call HALTS on
    a particular function, rather than the program as a whole,
    is a useful one, and not one I remember seeing before (at
    least not so clearly).

    A hearty round of applause and thank yous.

    The key is you call Halts on what could be A program (and each
    function, when combined with HALTS is able to be a 'program')

    Right. Obvious in retrospect. Now if I could just figure
    out a way to get my foresight as good as my hindsight....

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Tim Rentsch on Sat Nov 13 16:29:17 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, comp.lang.c

    On 11/13/2021 12:24 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it,

    Because I didn't see these last three words my reply was incorrect.

    I am not trying to solve the halting problem merely show how this
    simplest possible equivalent to the halting theorem counter-examples can
    have its halt status correctly decided by H.

    int H(ptr x, ptr y)
    {
    x(y); // direct execution of P(P)
    return 1;
    }

    // Minimal essence of Linz(1990) Ĥ
    // and Strachey(1965) P
    void P(ptr x)
    {
    H(x, x);
    }

    int main(void)
    {
    H(P, P);
    }

    H simulates its input and as soon as its input calls H with the same
    parameters that H was called with H aborts this simulation and returns 0
    for not halting, infinite recursion detected. It took me 16,000 hours
    since 2004 to get it this simple.


    it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.
    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?



    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

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  • From wij@21:1/5 to olcott on Sat Nov 13 21:21:43 2021
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 11/13/2021 12:24 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
    Juha Nieminen <nos...@thanks.invalid> writes:

    [..wanting to solve the halting problem..]

    You do understand that if the halting problem were solvable, and
    someone solved it,
    Because I didn't see these last three words my reply was incorrect.

    I am not trying to solve the halting problem merely show how this
    simplest possible equivalent to the halting theorem counter-examples can have its halt status correctly decided by H.
    int H(ptr x, ptr y)
    {
    x(y); // direct execution of P(P)
    return 1;
    }

    // Minimal essence of Linz(1990) Ĥ
    // and Strachey(1965) P
    void P(ptr x)
    {
    H(x, x);
    }
    int main(void)
    {
    H(P, P);
    }

    H simulates its input and as soon as its input calls H with the same parameters that H was called with H aborts this simulation and returns 0
    for not halting, infinite recursion detected. It took me 16,000 hours
    since 2004 to get it this simple.
    it would be the Holy Grail of mathematics?
    Pretty much every single unsolved mathematical hypothesis that can
    be expressed as a computer program could be solved just like that.
    [...] The Collatz conjecture? Solved. [...]

    Can you explain what program would serve to provide a solution to
    the Collatz conjecture?

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott
    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    POOP, Pete Olcott's Own Problem (Also, Pete Olcott's Other (Halting) Problem [Richard])
    ---
    halt decider (Olcott 2021)
    A halt decider accepts or rejects an input on the basis of whether or
    not the direct execution or (possibly partial) pure simulation of this
    input would ever reach a final state of this input.

    I claim that the halt status for a specific H(P,P) is never halting
    therefore every correct rebuttal must show that one of these instances
    halts.
    https://groups.google.com/g/comp.theory/c/i4yGvWzg9gE
    ---

    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar

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  • From Keith Thompson@21:1/5 to wij on Sun Nov 14 02:31:23 2021
    wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar

    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in comp.lang.c++
    and are not interested in seeing replies here. Post in comp.theory if
    you want to engage with him.

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
    Working, but not speaking, for Philips
    void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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  • From wij@21:1/5 to Keith Thompson on Sun Nov 14 06:09:29 2021
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in comp.lang.c++
    and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as defined is erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++ people.

    Post in comp.theory if you want to engage with him.


    Anyone is of the same right posting message on any google forum one think appropriate, is that correct? Has olcott the right? I think so. Do you?
    That said, I don't really enjoy engaging with olcott, he is sometimes very cunny.

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.T...@gmail.com
    Working, but not speaking, for Philips
    void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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  • From Mr Flibble@21:1/5 to wij on Sun Nov 14 14:18:47 2021
    On Sun, 14 Nov 2021 06:09:29 -0800 (PST)
    wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you
    are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in
    comp.lang.c++ and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as
    defined is erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++
    people.

    The halting problem as defined is erroneous: it is effectively a
    category error.

    /Flibble

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  • From wij@21:1/5 to Mr Flibble on Sun Nov 14 07:29:19 2021
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 22:19:01 UTC+8, Mr Flibble wrote:
    On Sun, 14 Nov 2021 06:09:29 -0800 (PST)
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you
    are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in
    comp.lang.c++ and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as
    defined is erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++
    people.
    The halting problem as defined is erroneous: it is effectively a
    category error.

    /Flibble

    That is what I am worried about.
    If a long C++ debate to find out the problem is rooted in something so basic, that would be awkward.
    There was a C++ fever time, C++ people (esp. standard making people) though it might surpass TM (that is I guess the reason why standard C++ is so abstract and, in Go-Game term, 'heavy')

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  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to wij on Sun Nov 14 16:58:41 2021
    On 14/11/2021 15:09, wij wrote:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in comp.lang.c++
    and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as defined is
    erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++ people.


    Mr. Flibble does not speak for "C++ people". In fact, Mr. Flibble often
    does not speak for himself, but posts things just to provoke a reaction.
    I don't really know what he means by his comments on the halting
    problem, but they are certainly not C++ related - I'm sure if he
    actually wants to discuss it, then comp.theory is a better place.

    Post in comp.theory if you want to engage with him.


    Anyone is of the same right posting message on any google forum one think appropriate, is that correct? Has olcott the right? I think so. Do you?
    That said, I don't really enjoy engaging with olcott, he is sometimes very cunny.


    Usenet is a bastion of free speech - there is no sensor of who posts
    here, or what they post. Yes, Olcott has the right to post anything
    here. Equally, people who would prefer that a C++ newsgroup is for C++
    topics have the right to ask others to refrain from off-topic posting or encouraging impolite and disruptive posters.

    Olcott is delusional. He is not the first, nor the last, to believe
    that he has found a proof or counter-proof that contradicts a long
    established mathematical theorem. Like all such people, rational
    arguments bounce off him with no effect, except perhaps to strengthen
    his resolve. Replying to and encouraging him does not help anyone - not
    him, nor anyone else interested in computational theory, nor other
    people frequenting these newsgroups. There is a famous essay "beware
    the trisectors" that can be found on the net, which covers the
    difficulties in dealing with those like Olcott.

    Despite using a limited subset of C and C++ as his programming language
    (rather than more traditional choices such as Turing machines), Olcott's
    posts are not remote topical here - just as they are not topical in a
    newsgroup for English Literature despite being written in English.

    Olcott is never going to listen to anyone else's advice or suggestions, including the suggestion to take his ramblings elsewhere. But perhaps
    you might.

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Mr Flibble on Sun Nov 14 11:46:20 2021
    On 11/14/2021 8:18 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
    On Sun, 14 Nov 2021 06:09:29 -0800 (PST)
    wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you
    are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in
    comp.lang.c++ and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as
    defined is erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++
    people.

    The halting problem as defined is erroneous: it is effectively a
    category error.

    /Flibble


    You are the only one else in the world that realizes this.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

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  • From Ben Bacarisse@21:1/5 to David Brown on Sun Nov 14 17:31:58 2021
    David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

    ... There is a famous essay "beware
    the trisectors" that can be found on the net, which covers the
    difficulties in dealing with those like Olcott.

    It's called "What To Do When the Trisector Comes" by Underwood Dudley.
    But it's pre-Usenet so have very little relevant advice.

    --
    Ben.

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  • From Keith Thompson@21:1/5 to wij on Sun Nov 14 13:46:23 2021
    wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in comp.lang.c++
    and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as defined is
    erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++ people.

    I was referring to olcott, not Mr Flibble.

    Post in comp.theory if you want to engage with him.

    Anyone is of the same right posting message on any google forum one think appropriate, is that correct? Has olcott the right? I think so. Do you?
    That said, I don't really enjoy engaging with olcott, he is sometimes very cunny.

    This is a Usenet newsgroup, not a Google forum. Google has created a
    clumsy interface to Usenet, making newsgroups appear as Google forums.

    That being said, yes, anyone can post to unmoderated newsgroups. I am
    *asking* you to refrain from arguing with olcott here in comp.lang.c++.

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
    Working, but not speaking, for Philips
    void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Keith Thompson on Sun Nov 14 22:53:26 2021
    On 11/14/2021 3:46 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyniijj@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in comp.lang.c++
    and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as defined is
    erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++ people.

    I was referring to olcott, not Mr Flibble.

    Post in comp.theory if you want to engage with him.

    Anyone is of the same right posting message on any google forum one think
    appropriate, is that correct? Has olcott the right? I think so. Do you?
    That said, I don't really enjoy engaging with olcott, he is sometimes very cunny.

    This is a Usenet newsgroup, not a Google forum. Google has created a
    clumsy interface to Usenet, making newsgroups appear as Google forums.

    That being said, yes, anyone can post to unmoderated newsgroups. I am *asking* you to refrain from arguing with olcott here in comp.lang.c++.


    Please just review my snippet code C code and I will go away again.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

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  • From wij@21:1/5 to David Brown on Mon Nov 15 00:43:47 2021
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 23:58:59 UTC+8, David Brown wrote:
    On 14/11/2021 15:09, wij wrote:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 18:31:39 UTC+8, Keith Thompson wrote:
    wij <wyn...@gmail.com> writes:
    On Sunday, 14 November 2021 at 06:29:57 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    [...]
    Basic truth: No one can duplicate your 'experiment'.

    Although you showed some C/C++/x86/TM codes, no one is real, you are also a liar
    Which is why most of us don't read anything he posts in comp.lang.c++
    and are not interested in seeing replies here.

    Is it? As I knew, not so.
    I used to see Mr Flibble in comp.c++. He posted "Halting problem as defined is
    erroneous" in comp.theory, which made me worry about C++ people.

    Mr. Flibble does not speak for "C++ people". In fact, Mr. Flibble often
    does not speak for himself, but posts things just to provoke a reaction.
    I don't really know what he means by his comments on the halting
    problem, but they are certainly not C++ related - I'm sure if he
    actually wants to discuss it, then comp.theory is a better place.
    Post in comp.theory if you want to engage with him.


    Anyone is of the same right posting message on any google forum one think appropriate, is that correct? Has olcott the right? I think so. Do you? That said, I don't really enjoy engaging with olcott, he is sometimes very cunny.

    Usenet is a bastion of free speech - there is no sensor of who posts
    here, or what they post. Yes, Olcott has the right to post anything
    here. Equally, people who would prefer that a C++ newsgroup is for C++
    topics have the right to ask others to refrain from off-topic posting or encouraging impolite and disruptive posters.

    Olcott is delusional. He is not the first, nor the last, to believe
    that he has found a proof or counter-proof that contradicts a long established mathematical theorem. Like all such people, rational
    arguments bounce off him with no effect, except perhaps to strengthen
    his resolve. Replying to and encouraging him does not help anyone - not
    him, nor anyone else interested in computational theory, nor other
    people frequenting these newsgroups. There is a famous essay "beware
    the trisectors" that can be found on the net, which covers the
    difficulties in dealing with those like Olcott.

    Despite using a limited subset of C and C++ as his programming language (rather than more traditional choices such as Turing machines), Olcott's posts are not remote topical here - just as they are not topical in a newsgroup for English Literature despite being written in English.

    Olcott is never going to listen to anyone else's advice or suggestions, including the suggestion to take his ramblings elsewhere. But perhaps
    you might.

    No one likes to see what is not wanted to see. But, 'suppressing' other speeches should not be what the 'free speech' we recognized.
    An example of your case: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.programming
    That communication function of that site is sabotaged by "garbage posts" is definitely not the essence of free speech.
    There are also many similar cases, particularly involving political issues.

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  • From David Brown@21:1/5 to wij on Mon Nov 15 10:12:19 2021
    On 15/11/2021 09:43, wij wrote:

    No one likes to see what is not wanted to see. But, 'suppressing' other speeches should not be what the 'free speech' we recognized.
    An example of your case: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.programming
    That communication function of that site is sabotaged by "garbage posts" is definitely not the essence of free speech.
    There are also many similar cases, particularly involving political issues.


    comp.programming is a Usenet group, not a "site" or a "google group".
    And yes, it has been destroyed by vandals - people who irritate others
    and hinder other people from using a place for its intended function.
    That is a misuse of free speech - just as talking loudly in a cinema or
    theatre is a misuse. It is extremely difficult to create and enforce a
    set of rules that do not hinder or censor free speech, while at the same
    time stopping misuse and abuse.

    The best that can be done in an open group like this is to ask people
    politely to respect other people. Sometimes it works - I've seen
    posters mature from annoying and egotistic to understanding that working
    /with/ people in a group, rather than against them, is better for
    everyone. Often, it does not work. Some people (such as at least one
    person in comp.programming) prefer to destroy communities and vandalise
    common areas - that is something that most people find difficult to
    understand, but it happens. Others (including a long-term poster to comp.programming and other groups, including occasionally this one) have serious psychological issues and I think are unable to understand things
    from other peoples' viewpoints. I suspect Olcott falls into this
    category - his plan to annoy people such as Keith until they review his
    "code" shows a serious inability to understand other people.

    Now, despite the rule that "discussions about topicality are always on
    topic", is it possible to agree on the following points?

    1. Olcott's posts contribute nothing of use or interest to groups such
    as comp.lang.c and comp.lang.c++, and are not topical there.

    2. No replies to Olcott's posts in these groups help him in any way -
    most replies are complaints about the posts, and those that address the technical aspects are invariably dismissed by Olcott himself.

    3. While ignoring Olcott will not stop him entirely, replying to him
    encourages most posts. Unfortunately, that also applies to replies in
    the topical group comp.theory, since he often cross-posts back to
    off-topic groups.

    4. No one can stop Olcott or any others from posting what they want.
    All that can be done is ask people to stop, and appeal to basic human
    decency.

    5. Further discussion here will not help. Either you get the point, or
    you don't.

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  • From wij@21:1/5 to David Brown on Mon Nov 15 03:58:59 2021
    On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 17:12:36 UTC+8, David Brown wrote:
    On 15/11/2021 09:43, wij wrote:

    No one likes to see what is not wanted to see. But, 'suppressing' other speeches should not be what the 'free speech' we recognized.
    An example of your case: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.programming
    That communication function of that site is sabotaged by "garbage posts" is definitely not the essence of free speech.
    There are also many similar cases, particularly involving political issues.

    comp.programming is a Usenet group, not a "site" or a "google group".

    Sorry that I don't really distinguish "site" "google group/forum" "usenet" "newsgroup", sometimes I refer it to "link" "webpage",...,etc.

    And yes, it has been destroyed by vandals - people who irritate others
    and hinder other people from using a place for its intended function.
    That is a misuse of free speech - just as talking loudly in a cinema or theatre is a misuse. It is extremely difficult to create and enforce a
    set of rules that do not hinder or censor free speech, while at the same
    time stopping misuse and abuse.

    The best that can be done in an open group like this is to ask people politely to respect other people. Sometimes it works - I've seen
    posters mature from annoying and egotistic to understanding that working /with/ people in a group, rather than against them, is better for
    everyone. Often, it does not work. Some people (such as at least one
    person in comp.programming) prefer to destroy communities and vandalise common areas - that is something that most people find difficult to understand, but it happens. Others (including a long-term poster to comp.programming and other groups, including occasionally this one) have serious psychological issues and I think are unable to understand things
    from other peoples' viewpoints. I suspect Olcott falls into this
    category - his plan to annoy people such as Keith until they review his "code" shows a serious inability to understand other people.

    Now, despite the rule that "discussions about topicality are always on topic", is it possible to agree on the following points?

    1. Olcott's posts contribute nothing of use or interest to groups such
    as comp.lang.c and comp.lang.c++, and are not topical there.

    2. No replies to Olcott's posts in these groups help him in any way -
    most replies are complaints about the posts, and those that address the technical aspects are invariably dismissed by Olcott himself.

    3. While ignoring Olcott will not stop him entirely, replying to him encourages most posts. Unfortunately, that also applies to replies in
    the topical group comp.theory, since he often cross-posts back to
    off-topic groups.

    4. No one can stop Olcott or any others from posting what they want.
    All that can be done is ask people to stop, and appeal to basic human decency.

    5. Further discussion here will not help. Either you get the point, or
    you don't.

    From Olcott's Incident I learned quite several things. From my eye, you just rejected a chance to lean new things for you.
    Those had debated with him should have learned something they missed in the process, nothing really that negative.

    It all depend on the viewer.

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  • From Juha Nieminen@21:1/5 to David Brown on Tue Nov 16 07:00:40 2021
    David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
    And yes, it has been destroyed by vandals - people who irritate others
    and hinder other people from using a place for its intended function.
    That is a misuse of free speech - just as talking loudly in a cinema or theatre is a misuse. It is extremely difficult to create and enforce a
    set of rules that do not hinder or censor free speech, while at the same
    time stopping misuse and abuse.

    While the concept of "free speech" can be divided into its legal definition
    and the *principle* (ie. the ideal that one supports philosophically and
    tries to not to infringe as a matter of principle), in either case I would
    say that the concept of "free speech" entails three main rules:

    1) You should be able to express your opinions in a public forum to
    anybody who is willing to listen, without impediment, and without negative
    repercussions or pusnishment. (Nobody has to actively provide you the means
    to do this, but neither should anybody actively stop you from doing it by
    deliberately putting barriers in your way.)

    2) You should be able to listen to any opinions you want, by anybody
    you want, in a public forum without impediment, and without negative
    repercussions or punishment. (Again, nobody has to actively provide you
    the means to do this, but likewise should nobody actively stop you from
    doing so by deliberately putting barriers in your way.)

    3) You should not be forced to say something you don't want to say
    (ie. compelled speech), and you should not be forced to listen to any
    opinions you don't want to listen to (as long as this this does not
    infringe on the other rules above.)

    When it comes to disruptive behavior, that usually infringes on the first
    and second rule above, as disruptive behavior often hinders people expressing their opinions and other people listening to them. It is acceptable to limit disruptive behavior (to a reasonable extent) in order to protect the rules above.

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