I use Emacs since about 25 years.

If I were today in the same situation as at the beginning, using ed and searching for something more comfortable, I would perhaps install emacs,
test it a little, and then say: it is trash. Then continue using ed and searching. Perhaps try vi (that I use a little), perhaps ending using sam.

Yes, it is trash, believe me, as it comes, it is trash. Trash.

Emacs developement reached its climax. Perhaps was the best editor.
What is the best, can only become worse. Worse and fat.

Yes, it is customizable, but even knowing emacs since so long, I spend
so much time to get the old behaviour. A waste of time.

The automatic indentation in fundamental mode, the deleteting whole
regions pressing delete once, blending colours, unsharp fonts, menus,
fat ...

Rodrigo.

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On Friday, 2 June 2017 18:11:21 UTC+1, Roderick wrote:
:

Yes, it is trash, believe me, as it comes, it is trash. Trash.

:

Yes, it is customizable, but even knowing emacs since so long, I spend
so much time to get the old behaviour. A waste of time.

I wouldn't call it 'trash'. I love it, but every time I install a new major version I seem to have a struggle setting it up to act the way the previous version did.

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On Fri, 2 Jun 2017, Bruce Mardle wrote:

but every time I install a new major version I seem to have a struggle setting it up to act the way the previous version did.

I had to compile it to get sharp fonts.

If you see traditional editors like ed, (n)vi, sam, acme, they become
always better, but not fatter, they dont mutate continously in appareance
and behaviour.

I was realy furious with the new default "delete-selection-mode". It is
a trap for people that take serious his work and the text he is editing.

Gnu Emacs become always new "cool features" that perhaps an idiot
finds good, an idiot that needs a text editor more intelligent than him.
I dont want that the text editor takes decisions for me.

Emacs is based on a brocken Lisp. If developers had a sense for
perfection, they would have corrected it long ago instead of
inflating it with "cool features".

Rodrigo.

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On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:16:35 PM UTC+10, Roderick wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jun 2017, Bruce Mardle wrote:

but every time I install a new major version I seem to have a struggle setting it up to act the way the previous version did.

I had to compile it to get sharp fonts.

If you see traditional editors like ed, (n)vi, sam, acme, they become
always better, but not fatter, they dont mutate continously in appareance
and behaviour.

I was realy furious with the new default "delete-selection-mode". It is
a trap for people that take serious his work and the text he is editing.

Gnu Emacs become always new "cool features" that perhaps an idiot
finds good, an idiot that needs a text editor more intelligent than him.
I dont want that the text editor takes decisions for me.

Emacs is based on a brocken Lisp. If developers had a sense for
perfection, they would have corrected it long ago instead of
inflating it with "cool features".

Rodrigo.

About the only thing, I can agree with here is the broken Lisp - it would be nice to have "real" Lisp backing up Emacs, but I don't know the ramifications - presumably, it has been looked at and dismissed due to the amount of work required.

I too have used Emacs for 25+ years. One of the original reasons for choosing it over Vi was that I didn't have to retrain my fingers (sometimes multiple times per day) when moving from working with an editor and working with a word processor. Vi was
never a contender because of its UI differences from the rest of the world.

I don't have a problem with the sharpness of the fonts - I use Emacs on Windows, so maybe that isn't a problem for me?

I'm not sure why you are furious with delete-selection-mode - it is definitely not on by default (at least in my Emacs) and I see it as just a further move to bring Emacs more in line with what has become accepted UI (but "accepted" doesn't have to mean
you have to like it :-)). Personally, I haven't enabled it and I suspect that in Emacs 26 it will move from being off by default to on - which will just have to be one of those customisations that I'll have to explore at that time.

Yes, it is a bit of a pain reconfiguring a startup file when a new major version is released. But Microsoft has trained us over the years to accept complete UI changes with new versions, so it is not like Emacs is any different. Just like it has trained
us that it is "healthy" to reboot (sometimes) multiple times per day/week (oh Unix, why couldn't you have captured the imagination of the business world?).

Looking back at the difference between Emacs 18/19 and Emacs 25 I can only applaud the developers for the work they have done. I wrote a significant piece of code in ELisp under 19 and am now re-working it completely for 25 - a much "happier" experience
than the first time!

Many new editors have been born and evolved in the last 25 years - I don't envy anybody having to make a choice now, it would be a lot of work to evaluate the different offerings. I've never regretted choosing Emacs.

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On Monday, 12 June 2017 22:01:35 UTC+1, Peter wrote:
:

I too have used Emacs for 25+ years. One of the original reasons for choosing it over Vi was that I didn't have to retrain my fingers (sometimes multiple times per day) when moving from working with an editor and working with a word processor. Vi was

never a contender because of its UI differences from the rest of the world.
:

I'm not sure why you are furious with delete-selection-mode - it is definitely not on by default (at least in my Emacs) and I see it as just a further move to bring Emacs more in line with what has become accepted UI (but "accepted" doesn't have to

mean you have to like it :-)). Personally, I haven't enabled it and I suspect that in Emacs 26 it will move from being off by default to on - which will just have to be one of those customisations that I'll have to explore at that time.
:

Funnily enough, one of the things I love about Emacs is that the user interface is so friendly (no, really!). In particular, I never need to move my hands far from the home keys. A lot of developers (I'm looking at you, Microsoft!) seems to think people
have 3 hands: 2 for the keyboard and 1 for the mouse!

I can relate to your frustration with vi. I play Nethack from time to time and, after I've done that, U tebd ti ttoe kuje tgus fir a wguke :-)

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On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Peter wrote:

I'm not sure why you are furious with delete-selection-mode - it is definitely not on by default [...]

Something like that is enabled by default in 25.2 and is very disturbing.
I had to add:

(transient-mark-mode -1)

And also:

(setq inhibit-startup-screen t)
(menu-bar-mode -1)
(tool-bar-mode -1)
(scroll-bar-mode -1)
(blink-cursor-mode 0)

(setq-default indent-tabs-mode t)
(electric-indent-mode -1)

(normal-erase-is-backspace-mode 1)

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Roderick <hruodr@gmail.com> writes:

On Mon, 12 Jun 2017, Peter wrote:

I'm not sure why you are furious with delete-selection-mode - it is
definitely not on by default [...]

Something like that is enabled by default in 25.2 and is very disturbing.
I had to add:

(transient-mark-mode -1)

And also:

(setq inhibit-startup-screen t)
(menu-bar-mode -1)
(tool-bar-mode -1)
(scroll-bar-mode -1)
(blink-cursor-mode 0)

(setq-default indent-tabs-mode t)
(electric-indent-mode -1)

(normal-erase-is-backspace-mode 1)

Wow, 9 customization lines qualify as "very disturbing".

Perspective, my friend, perspective.

--
Dan Espen

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On 20.06.2017 15:44, Dan Espen wrote:

Roderick <hruodr@gmail.com> writes:

Wow, 9 customization lines qualify as "very disturbing".

Perspective, my friend, perspective.

In fact, for me as a relative newbie to emacs, 9 such lines hint at
quite some disturbance. That's because I still do not really understand
lisp, and because I do not even know how to name the changes in the look-and-feel, which means a really lengthy net search until I stumble
across something that helps me restore emacs to my expectations.

The fact that Microsoft and others are wont to change lots does not
necessarily mean it has to be copied by the develpers of emacs ;-)

Just my thoughts,

Julius

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Julius Dittmar <Julius.Dittmar@gmx.de> writes:

On 20.06.2017 15:44, Dan Espen wrote:

Roderick <hruodr@gmail.com> writes:

Wow, 9 customization lines qualify as "very disturbing".

Perspective, my friend, perspective.

In fact, for me as a relative newbie to emacs, 9 such lines hint at
quite some disturbance. That's because I still do not really
understand lisp, and because I do not even know how to name the
changes in the look-and-feel, which means a really lengthy net search
until I stumble across something that helps me restore emacs to my expectations.

The fact that Microsoft and others are wont to change lots does not necessarily mean it has to be copied by the develpers of emacs ;-)

Just my thoughts,

Think again.

The user in question has turned off the Menu Bar.
Turn it on, and you will find everything you need to set those
options to your liking.

Knowledge of Lisp is NOT required.
If you are the OP, shame on you.

--
Dan Espen

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At 22:16 +0200 on Tuesday 2017-06-20, Julius Dittmar wrote:

I do not even know how to name the changes in the look-and-feel,
which means a really lengthy net search until I stumble across
something that helps me restore emacs to my expectations.

Hello Julius,

When a new version of Emacs is released, it comes with a NEWS file
that includes documentation of each change made in the default
behaviour of Emacs, including a recipe for getting back the old
behaviour for people who still want it. This file should answer
your questions without any need for a lengthy net search. View it
with `C-h n'.

(Tip: The NEWS file will open in Outline Mode which has commands
for managing the structure of the document. For even easier
folding and navigation of the document structure, switch the mode
to Org Mode (`M-x org-mode RET'). Then Shift-TAB cycles the
visibility of all headings in the file, and TAB cycles the
visibility of the heading you're in. I mention this because the
file can be quite large.)

If the NEWS file fails to say how to get the old behaviour back,
then report this as a bug (`M-x report-emacs-bug'). This might or
might not result in a change to the documentation, but it should
give you the information you need to get back the behaviour you
prefer, possibly along with some insight into why the change in
behaviour was made.

(Note: Many of those who might respond to Emacs bug reports are
often _very_ overworked, and can sometimes be a bit testy, or at
least overly terse. Don't let this deter you. If you stay
neutral/rational and ask clear questions, you will get the
information you need.)

FWIW it seems to me that the project is extremely conservative
about making changes in behaviour (with a few lamentable
exceptions such as curly quotes). When behaviour is really a
matter of personal preference, they will often choose the default
to be that which will be easiest for new users who are not yet
familiar with Emacs, on the premise that it's much easier for
experienced users to add a customisation. It sounds like you fall
into the crack between these two groups.

N.

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Thanks, N.!
I'll save your post for reference for the next version change :-)
Julius

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On Wednesday, 21 June 2017 14:24:01 UTC+1, N. Jackson wrote:

When a new version of Emacs is released, it comes with a NEWS file
that includes documentation of each change made in the default
behaviour of Emacs, including a recipe for getting back the old
behaviour for people who still want it. This file should answer
your questions without any need for a lengthy net search. View it
with `C-h n'.

(Tip: The NEWS file will open in Outline Mode which has commands
for managing the structure of the document. For even easier
folding and navigation of the document structure, switch the mode
to Org Mode (`M-x org-mode RET'). Then Shift-TAB cycles the
visibility of all headings in the file, and TAB cycles the
visibility of the heading you're in. I mention this because the
file can be quite large.)

If the NEWS file fails to say how to get the old behaviour back,
then report this as a bug (`M-x report-emacs-bug'). This might or
might not result in a change to the documentation, but it should
give you the information you need to get back the behaviour you
prefer, possibly along with some insight into why the change in
behaviour was made.

(Note: Many of those who might respond to Emacs bug reports are
often _very_ overworked, and can sometimes be a bit testy, or at
least overly terse. Don't let this deter you. If you stay
neutral/rational and ask clear questions, you will get the
information you need.)

FWIW it seems to me that the project is extremely conservative
about making changes in behaviour (with a few lamentable
exceptions such as curly quotes). When behaviour is really a
matter of personal preference, they will often choose the default
to be that which will be easiest for new users who are not yet
familiar with Emacs, on the premise that it's much easier for
experienced users to add a customisation. It sounds like you fall
into the crack between these two groups.

N.

TL/DR ;-)
When I recently installed version 25.something, having previously used 23.something I started reading the NEWSes... but realises that
a) it was take a very long time, and
b) I had no idea what most of the entries were about.

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