Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out,
if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but
some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from
scratch.
Yes, way overkill. I think I said the initial units use the Arduino
nano. No OS required, and in fact is a liability.
They are making this with an Arduino nano and a small custom board for
the RS-232 converter, in a 3d printed box. All of that is fine I
expect. But they are having this problem.
Here's what I would like to use. https://www.brainboxes.com/product/usb-to-serial/usb/us-257
There is a ton of idle time to send the headers between the 50 char
messages.
There's always more than meets the eye. I looked at the code and
although it's Arduino code, it is enough like C that I can tell it's
missing a few things.
I don't know if that would cause any problems, but if the /r is missed
from data corruption, the character buffer would likely overflow,
causing who knows what harm....
I'm not even sure why the data is being buffered, it could be sent
through one character at a time...
If I wasn't up to my ears, I would take this on. But I am, so I
can't.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out,There's about a gazillion industrial computers that do this, though they
if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but
some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from
scratch.
are probably overkill and more expensive than one would prefer. This
one is on the front page of cnx-software right now:
https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/01/17/edatec-cm4-sensing-industrial-computer-offers-can-bus-rs485-and-rs232-interfaces/
Note that most of the boxed computers on that blog are quite powerful,
more than you need for this:
https://www.cnx-software.com/news/industrial
You could try a more general web search for "industrial embedded
computer" if that is the sort of thing you want.
Do you need the box to
come from a real manufacturer with customer support? Is the idea to
deploy a moderate number of these, say dozens? A much larger number?
Or is it basically a one-off?
If characters are coming in at the full speed of the 9600 bps port, and going out at the same speed, and more characters are going out than
coming in (because of the headers being added), how is this supposed to
work with no flow control?
Regarding the programming, if it is just as you describe, there is not
much to it, I would have thought.
If there is only one input port to this box, why use a box at all,
rather than have the sensor emit the header every 20 lines?
Once the error is observed, a power cycle is required to fix it. It's
not a one time glitch.
This is actually a patch added when the sensor was changed to an
updated model which no longer outputs the same format or the headers.
The real problem is not the glitch, but that the failure remains until
the translator is reset.
I'd be happy with a solid CPU in a good box. The current units are
hand wired, so who knows how well they are made?
This is the problem when one person designs something, then another
person has to make it work. You never know where the bodies are
buried.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
Yes, way overkill. I think I said the initial units use the ArduinoThe OS won't hurt, but maybe it won't help much if the thing is this
nano. No OS required, and in fact is a liability.
simple. I can say I worked on a much fancier gadget like this using an
ARM Linux board (it intercepted and modified the data stream between a
POS terminal and a receipt printer, doing full duplex comms on both
sides while also getting data from the internet) and it worked fine
using the on-board 16550-style UARTs.
They are making this with an Arduino nano and a small custom board forHmm, I wonder if it can be diagnosed, if they are ok keeping on using
the RS-232 converter, in a 3d printed box. All of that is fine I
expect. But they are having this problem.
the same hardware. Any idea what was going wrong? Flaky hardware? Underpowered RS232 ports?
Here's what I would like to use. https://www.brainboxes.com/product/usb-to-serial/usb/us-257Those look nice. I will keep looking around / asking around.
There is a ton of idle time to send the headers between the 50 char messages.Ah right, I had missed or forgotten that there was just one message per second. Yes, you are fine.
There's always more than meets the eye. I looked at the code andArduino code is C++ with some special libraries and light preprocessing,
although it's Arduino code, it is enough like C that I can tell it's missing a few things.
so it shouldn't be too big a deal to hack it.
I don't know if that would cause any problems, but if the /r is missed from data corruption, the character buffer would likely overflow,
causing who knows what harm....
Fair enough, yes, the program should check for various kinds of errors.
Is it disastrous if an error results in some kind of alert that
temporarily stops operation? The idea is to deploy something that
passes reasonable testing, possibly hit a few unexpected error
conditions during initial production, fix those, and hopefully be
reliable afterwards, but have it not be catastrophic if something goes
wrong after a long period.
What do you want to have happen in case of data corruption anyway? Do
the messages have checksums and should the pass-through box check them?
I'm not even sure why the data is being buffered, it could be sent
through one character at a time...
If this thing is susceptible to later feature creep, the buffering might make things easier.
It seems to me that if you have another person involved with the programming, that person should be close to the customer site in order
to diagnose issues that might come up with the installed systems. Or at least, they should have real sensor hardware that they can test with.
If I wasn't up to my ears, I would take this on. But I am, so IUnderstandable ;).
can't.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
Once the error is observed, a power cycle is required to fix it. It'sGack, yeah. I had been thinking, this isn't my area, but my
not a one time glitch.
understanding is that the RS232 electrical spec requires voltages that
are somewhat above TTL logic levels, and that various crappy devices
skimp on these voltages and mostly work anyway. So that is a thing to suspect if a home-brew RS232 device is acting flaky. It could be that
the device at the other end expects those voltages to be closer to the
real spec.
This is actually a patch added when the sensor was changed to anCan I ask about the device or computer that is receiving this data?
updated model which no longer outputs the same format or the headers.
Does that have software of its own that can be modified? Adding a
hardware box just to deal with a software protocol change seems pretty desperate.
The real problem is not the glitch, but that the failure remains untilHow about including a WDT that resets the circuit? Is it possible to
the translator is reset.
tell if the CPU is even still running when the device locks up?
I'd be happy with a solid CPU in a good box. The current units areAs a test, you could put in a laptop with an FTDI cable and see if that
hand wired, so who knows how well they are made?
is able to keep the system happy. That's how we tested all our stuff
with the POS interception thing that I mentioned.
This is the problem when one person designs something, then anotherYes, that's why getting a remote contractor involved for something this simple sounds like more trouble than it's worth. It's much more hassle
person has to make it work. You never know where the bodies are
buried.
than if the person is already there in your shop and is familiar with
the product.
There's nothing to learn from using a laptop. I believe they
have used a PC running Putty to capture data on the serial ports.
You mean a laptop with an oscilloscope dongle?
"Desparate"? They just don't want to mess with the box that is
receiving the data, not yet anyway.
We have units that work. We have units that fail. I don't know what
we would learn from using a laptop.
If pigs had wings, they would fly. The only trouble is, they don't
have wings.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
"Desparate"? They just don't want to mess with the box that isWell, desperate in the sense that modifying software is usually easier
receiving the data, not yet anyway.
than deploying and maintaining another physical computer, but I guess it depends on how hard it is to mess with that box.
We have units that work. We have units that fail. I don't know whatIf the laptop worked reliably it would show that the basic FTDI
we would learn from using a laptop.
interface was sufficient. It would also allow spotting issues with the incoming data, etc.
Someone on irc suggested using thin clients from ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/125720309804
They are cheap and plentiful, but maybe not the right look, as it were.
If pigs had wings, they would fly. The only trouble is, they don'tI just worry that if this is all special purpose hardware at the
have wings.
endpoints, making the gizmo work may involve checking levels with an oscilloscope and stuff like that, rather than being a pure software
matter. The laptop could help test that theory.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
There's nothing to learn from using a laptop. I believe theyOk, same idea.
have used a PC running Putty to capture data on the serial ports.
You mean a laptop with an oscilloscope dongle?I mean an scope with analog inputs to check voltages, timings, noise,
etc. You have boxes that work and boxes that mostly work. What makes
the boxes different from one another? It sounds like something
somewhere is marginal.
I hope this extreme an approach is not needed, but if custom hardware is involved and you have the final responsibility of getting everything working, you have to be ready for whatever it might take.
I remember on the POS project, we had some kind of multi-channel logic analyzer for this purpose, though I don't remember using it. We also
had some hacked up serial cables that let us monitor the traffic between
two devices by tapping the TX and RX pins and bringing them out to a
third DB9 plug that we connected to another computer. Those cables were
very useful. I think I can figure out how they worked, but I've been
wanting to ask the guy who built them, just to be sure.
Not sure how a logic analyzer would help. That's for digital signals.
You are talking about an analog issue.
Everything I've found is a hulking x86 compatible gadget with all
sorts of high end interfaces, and only one serial port if any.
But there are tons of RS-232 interface boards to use with the Arduino.
I guess the fact that they have the DB-9 connector is a problem.
I'm very surprised Digikey and Mouser don't carry a box device like
this.
Some are like rPi's, with ARM processors, but still too messy dealing
with a complex processor and an OS.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
Not sure how a logic analyzer would help. That's for digital signals.The logic analyzer for the POS thing was probably for debugging timing problems. I think it was able to timestamp more accurately than our
You are talking about an analog issue.
software hack could. You are right that it wouldn't handle analog
issues.
Everything I've found is a hulking x86 compatible gadget with allThere's a number of ARM boards with RS232 but that's just x86 in
sorts of high end interfaces, and only one serial port if any.
minuature, perhaps. Here is one with two RS232's, and again way more
other stuff than you want:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/ARM/NXP/LPC2378-STK/
Actually it looks like they have (had?) an AVR board with RS232 (single port, meh). It is out of stock though, and (who knows) maybe
discontinued:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/AVR/Development/AVR-CAN/
Were you thinking of using a single port and splitting out the TX and RX wires? That is a little bit too hacky imho.
The company is in Bulgaria but some of their stuff is stocked by
Digikey, so you could check there.
Also maybe this?
https://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=3517
Claims to have two uart ports and rs232 tranceiver chip, but uses
JST-like connectors rather than DB9. Same processor as the generic ARM Bluepill though, and no extra ports other than USB.
Hmm, this one has two DB9's:
https://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=743
Anyway you can find other stuff there too.
But there are tons of RS-232 interface boards to use with the Arduino.I think stuff these days tends to use USB, which is its own can of
I guess the fact that they have the DB-9 connector is a problem.
worms, but it is easy to get USB to serial converter cables.
There is this though, 1 port:
https://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=5579
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
I'm very surprised Digikey and Mouser don't carry a box device likeIt is weird, there must be something like that, but product search everywhere is terrible. I notice there is a new stackexchange for
this.
hardware recommendations:
https://hardwarerecs.stackexchange.com/
It doesn't look that great, but who knows.
Some are like rPi's, with ARM processors, but still too messy dealingIf you can power it up and get a linux shell and run gcc, that is pretty easy to deal with.
with a complex processor and an OS.
You don't have to worry about the amount of software
underneath the shell prompt, you don't have to worry about UART device registers since the OS handles that, etc. I do understand that it is hardware overkill despite this.
There's always more than meets the eye. I looked at the code and
although it's Arduino code, it is enough like C that I can tell it's
missing a few things. One is, the files I have are line delimited by
the DOS convention, /r/n. The program counts lines by checking for
/r, ignoring /n. I don't know if that would cause any problems, but
if the /r is missed from data corruption, the character buffer would
likely overflow, causing who knows what harm. The character count
should be checked for bounds. I'm not even sure why the data is
being buffered, it could be sent through one character at a time,
simply monitoring for the end of line.
That's not really true. One way of making an MCU robust, is to reboot
it periodically. If it can reboot in less than a second, it can do
this job while invisibly rebooting. It takes significant time to
reboot an rPi.
No, no reason to worry about any of that, because an OS is not going
to be in the device.
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 6:04:44 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
Gack, yeah. I had been thinking, this isn't my area, but my
understanding is that the RS232 electrical spec requires voltages that
are somewhat above TTL logic levels, and that various crappy devices
skimp on these voltages and mostly work anyway. So that is a thing to
suspect if a home-brew RS232 device is acting flaky. It could be that
the device at the other end expects those voltages to be closer to the
real spec.
They used a MAX3232CPE which generates it's own voltages using
switched capacitor voltage boost. I wanted to check the values of
the caps. Seems the have different minimum values depending on
the Vcc voltage. But they are not in the BoM. I'll ask about
this. It could easily be the cause of the problem.
On 2023-01-17, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 6:04:44 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
Gack, yeah. I had been thinking, this isn't my area, but my
understanding is that the RS232 electrical spec requires voltages that
are somewhat above TTL logic levels, and that various crappy devices
skimp on these voltages and mostly work anyway. So that is a thing to
suspect if a home-brew RS232 device is acting flaky. It could be that
the device at the other end expects those voltages to be closer to the
real spec.
They used a MAX3232CPE which generates it's own voltages usingThat was my first thought as well so I looked it up to double check.
switched capacitor voltage boost. I wanted to check the values of
the caps. Seems the have different minimum values depending on
the Vcc voltage. But they are not in the BoM. I'll ask about
this. It could easily be the cause of the problem.
The MAX3232CPE is 0.1uF across the board so far as I can see. You
do hit problems with MAX232's - the original needed 1uF caps but
the MAX232A and several alternate manufacturers specify 0.1uF as
a minimum. Problems can arise if a MAX232 is put in place of one
of the alternatives but with the 3232 I'd expect people to get it
right.
OTOH the 3232 is a 3.3V compatible part. One thing they all have
in common is the charge pumps are a bit weedy in terms of voltage,
aiming for +/-5.5V regardless of supply voltage. That's within
current specs but the RS232 minimum voltages have dropped over the
years, I suppose it's possible the port of the receiver is an
older design.
In any case it doesn't leave particularly large
headroom for losses. Do you know if the protocol translator is on
a 3.3v or 5v supply? If the latter a MAX232A (note the A) is a
drop-in replacement with typical +/-10V drive. If 3.3V a booster
of some form will eliminate low voltage as an issue - in terms of
off the shelf hardware that would probably be a pair of RS232<>RS422
line extenders back to back.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
That's not really true. One way of making an MCU robust, is to rebootSo have it auto-reboot at night. More seriously, the thing that fails
it periodically. If it can reboot in less than a second, it can do
this job while invisibly rebooting. It takes significant time to
reboot an rPi.
the most on Rpi-style boards is the SD card. If you have a board that
doesn't use an SD card, it can be pretty robust.
No, no reason to worry about any of that, because an OS is not goingOf course the Arduino library is sort of an OS, if you use it.
to be in the device.
I still worry a little about whatever is making your existing box fail.
If you can isolate it to those capacitors or whatever it was, that is
great. Otherwise maybe you have to be ready for the possibility of
installing a ready-made box with properly working RS232 ports and still finding that it occasionally fails the same way.
Regarding the boxed microcomputer, someone on the Forth group might know
of a suitable product? It's the type of thing they might be using.
Acknowledged. MAX232 is the classic part for this application and
where I suspect most people will have gained their initial experience.
It's the one that has the most issue with the cap sizing. It's
also a 5V only part. The MAX2323 is a 3.3V/5V part, at 5V it's interchangable with the MAX232 but the latter has higher output
levels. If thresholds are the marginal factor here that's why I
suggest it as a possible experiment.
The data sheet I saw has a table of minimum capacitance for three
Vcc ranges, 3.3V, 5V and 3.3 to 5V approximately. Only 3.3V was
0.1 uF on all caps. The others were larger on at least one cap.
Table 9-1 on page 12. 1
You mean the RS-232 (TIA/EIAI) specification has changed? I have
not seen this.
5V supply. I don't know why you are talking about the MAX232.
I've said "MAX3232CPE" several times.
On 2023-01-18, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
The data sheet I saw has a table of minimum capacitance for three
Vcc ranges, 3.3V, 5V and 3.3 to 5V approximately. Only 3.3V was
0.1 uF on all caps. The others were larger on at least one cap.
Table 9-1 on page 12. 1
I'm reading Maxim's datasheet, see https://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/73152/MAXIM/MAX3232CPE.html If you're looking at a sheet from another manufacturer that may
change, leading to the same kind of incompatibility as seen with
the MAX232 variants.
You mean the RS-232 (TIA/EIAI) specification has changed? I haveNot recently but over time, yes. From memory the initial spec was
not seen this.
+/-12V. I think it was RS232C that lowered it to +/-9V but don't
hold me to that. It was either RS232E or F that lowered it again
to +/-5V. Even the 'F' revision is fairly old now, but 'C' got so
deeply ingrained it's not unusual to see references to RS232C even
today.
All specify inputs must tolerate up to +/-25V so there is cross-compatibility in terms of avoiding damage at least, but RS232
is one of those standards that often doesn't get implemented rigidly,
e.g. power thieves, discrete implementations that are not strictly compliant, and so on.
5V supply. I don't know why you are talking about the MAX232.Acknowledged. MAX232 is the classic part for this application and
I've said "MAX3232CPE" several times.
where I suspect most people will have gained their initial experience.
It's the one that has the most issue with the cap sizing. It's
also a 5V only part. The MAX2323 is a 3.3V/5V part, at 5V it's interchangable with the MAX232 but the latter has higher output
levels. If thresholds are the marginal factor here that's why I
suggest it as a possible experiment.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if
you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some
of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
Another thought is to find a common 'gender changer' case, a plastic case that would take a DB9 connector at each end, and drop in your own PCB. eg
More seriously, the thing that fails the most on Rpi-style boards isSo potentially lose an entire day of data? LOL
the SD card.
Yes, and I would still need to worry about it being stepped on by a
dinosaur.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
Does that refer to the SD card failing? I didn't realize you were envisioning saving any data on the Pi. If you were using a RPi type ofMore seriously, the thing that fails the most on Rpi-style boards isSo potentially lose an entire day of data? LOL
the SD card.
board presumably you'd upload incoming data (maybe over a network) as it arrived. But that is far away from the Arduino approach.
Yes, and I would still need to worry about it being stepped on by a dinosaur.Ok, so it sounds like you are confident that something is really wrong
with the Arduino boxes that are failing. Seems reasonable.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Another thought is to find a common 'gender changer' case, a plastic case that would take a DB9 connector at each end, and drop in your own PCB. eg
I think the hope is to not build hardware at all, including dropping
boards into things, but instead to buy a complete and packaged box that
you can plug cables into. I'm surprised that it seems this difficult.
Maybe it is an opportunity.
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems
less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.
The secondary question is, if a thing of the right shape exists, whether it can be reprogrammed. That is more common in an RS232-to-X product where
some protocol conversion is involved, but often those are fixed-function chips (eg RS232 to USB). Even if it is reprogrammable, it may be 'unofficially', in which case you're maybe in a lifetime buy situation in case they change the MCU or something that would mean your reprogramming strategy no longer works.
In the latter case I'd hunt around Alibaba looking for things of the right shape, but I think you'd first need to establish a use case that you can search for. Without that, it's just a 'box with MCU and two serial ports' and why would somebody want that?
The alternative is to go for something highly overspecced that just happens to have two serial ports. A PC is an obvious one: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Wholesale-Price-Dual-Band-Soft_1600482484162.html?
or else there are dual RS232 to Modbus/RS485 converters: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/USR-N520-H7-Version-Dual-Port_60593907847.html
and maybe you could reprogram those (it claims an ST Cortex M7).
But it's pot luck whether the next batch will have a different CPU - the listing says they already revved it from a TI Cortex M4.
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems
less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.
On 2023-01-19, Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.The company I work for used to sell a small industrial "shoebox" PC
with 8 serial ports (232/422/485 software selectable) and a small
SSD. It had some slow Intel processor and ran Windows 7 or Linux.
It never came close to breaking even, and was carried mainly as a convenience for customers who purchased a particular large and
profitable software product (that used serial ports) and they didn't
want to configure their own machines. 15 years ago it made sense, but
these days, everybody runs the software product on a VM and uses Ethernet->serial interfaces for the serial ports.
The supplier stopped making the shoebox machines, and nobody had
bought any for a couple years -- so we never bothered to find a
replacement.
We also used to sell a family of small boxes with ARM CPUs, a bunch of serial ports, and an RTOS-based software development kit. The cost of supporting the SDK was way too high to justify for the meager sales to customers who wanted to write their own firmware, so the SDK was discontinued. [The boxes themselves are still sold running propritary firmware for varioius applications.]
Paul Rubin <no.e...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Another thought is to find a common 'gender changer' case, a plastic case
that would take a DB9 connector at each end, and drop in your own PCB. eg
I think the hope is to not build hardware at all, including dropping boards into things, but instead to buy a complete and packaged box that you can plug cables into. I'm surprised that it seems this difficult. Maybe it is an opportunity.I know, but I don't think there are better options.
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems
less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.
The secondary question is, if a thing of the right shape exists, whether it can be reprogrammed. That is more common in an RS232-to-X product where
some protocol conversion is involved, but often those are fixed-function chips (eg RS232 to USB). Even if it is reprogrammable, it may be 'unofficially', in which case you're maybe in a lifetime buy situation in case they change the MCU or something that would mean your reprogramming strategy no longer works.
In the latter case I'd hunt around Alibaba looking for things of the right shape, but I think you'd first need to establish a use case that you can search for. Without that, it's just a 'box with MCU and two serial ports' and why would somebody want that?
The alternative is to go for something highly overspecced that just happens to have two serial ports. A PC is an obvious one: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Wholesale-Price-Dual-Band-Soft_1600482484162.html?
or else there are dual RS232 to Modbus/RS485 converters: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/USR-N520-H7-Version-Dual-Port_60593907847.html
and maybe you could reprogram those (it claims an ST Cortex M7).
But it's pot luck whether the next batch will have a different CPU - the listing says they already revved it from a TI Cortex M4.
On 1/19/2023 3:29 AM, Theo wrote:
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.
The secondary question is, if a thing of the right shape exists, whether it
can be reprogrammed. That is more common in an RS232-to-X product where some protocol conversion is involved, but often those are fixed-function chips (eg RS232 to USB). Even if it is reprogrammable, it may be 'unofficially', in which case you're maybe in a lifetime buy situation in case they change the MCU or something that would mean your reprogramming strategy no longer works.
In the latter case I'd hunt around Alibaba looking for things of the right shape, but I think you'd first need to establish a use case that you can search for. Without that, it's just a 'box with MCU and two serial ports' and why would somebody want that?
The alternative is to go for something highly overspecced that just happens
to have two serial ports. A PC is an obvious one: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Factory-Wholesale-Price-Dual-Band-Soft_1600482484162.html?
or else there are dual RS232 to Modbus/RS485 converters: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/USR-N520-H7-Version-Dual-Port_60593907847.htmlTwo-port terminal server -- with a single PC to service as many as necessary.
and maybe you could reprogram those (it claims an ST Cortex M7).
But it's pot luck whether the next batch will have a different CPU - the listing says they already revved it from a TI Cortex M4.
No changes to the TS. If the TS is redesigned, the i/f (to the network)
will remain the same (excepting, possibly, configuration options if not autobaud). SW resides in the PC -- and can snoop/log/replace/remote the
data if ever necessary without upgrading "firmware" in a device. Secure comms to/from the PC so it's AS IF it was hidden in firmware.
Costly, though. And, adds the need for a PC (which can likely be shared). But, easy-peasy to implement!
As you said, unless there is an existing market, who's going to bother designing it?
There are many, many devices that are MCUs with dual RS232 ports, just
just don't come in boxes.
When the glitch happens, no further data is sent to the recipient,
until the translator is reset. At this point, you have some idea in
your mind as to what has been designed, that seems to not match
reality.
It never came close to breaking even, and was carried mainly as a
convenience for customers who purchased a particular large and
profitable software product (that used serial ports) and they didn't
want to configure their own machines. 15 years ago it made sense, but
these days, everybody runs the software product on a VM and uses Ethernet->serial interfaces for the serial ports.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
There are many, many devices that are MCUs with dual RS232 ports, just just don't come in boxes.It's really weird that there are many catalogs and databases of small computer products for sale. Some of them are board level products and
some are boxed products. But there seems to be no obvious way to select
just the boxed products.
Packaged small computers certainly exist. This one is overkill, but considerably less so than a full-blown Linux box. It just doesn't have RS232:
https://www.seeedstudio.com/Wio-Terminal-p-4509.html
Could something with a USB host port that you can plug an FTDI cable be
ok?
Lol, all this needs is DB9's:
https://www.tindie.com/products/tindiescx/sc131-pocket-sized-z180-romwbw-cpm-computer-kit/
Actually it doesn't say whether the serial ports have RS232 voltages, so maybe not.
Given the willingness to pay $100 per unit in 10+ quantity, maybe it is easiest to get something built out of existing boards and enclosures.
In this device is an Arduino nano, affixed to a purpose built,
perfboard RS-232 converter.... So a shiny plastic, LCD adorned case
with no screwdowns, requiring USB dongles, is not what I'm looking
for.
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
Il 17/01/2023 16:24, Rick C ha scritto:
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
I don't know if the following ideas were already suggested by others in
this long thread.
First idea is to make your own box. I know you asked for a ready-to-use
box, but for low-medium quantities and for not extremely low-cost applications, IMHO making a custom box is not so difficult. There are
many many plastic or metallic enclosures amopng you can choose.
Pick one of your favorite MCU EVB with expansion connector (even an
Arduino with two UARTs), and pick two UART/RS232 converters on PCB (such
as [1]). Put them in the box.
Of course you need to make some holes or apertures in the panels and
assemble some cablings.
The second idea is to use one off-the-shelf box with a host USB port
(based on Linux, such as Raspberry, or a simple MCU with a host USB).
Now you only need a two-ports USB hub and a couple of USB/RS232
converter. Of course this isn't a box, because the USB/RS232 converters
are cables, but as usual you can put them in a custom box.
[2] https://www.digikey.it/short/nqf0tc78
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-5, Theo wrote:
Paul Rubin <no.e...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Another thought is to find a common 'gender changer' case, a plastic case
that would take a DB9 connector at each end, and drop in your own PCB. eg
I think the hope is to not build hardware at all, including dropping boards into things, but instead to buy a complete and packaged box that you can plug cables into. I'm surprised that it seems this difficult. Maybe it is an opportunity.I know, but I don't think there are better options.
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that. Others have extra
ports. But none are programmable. There are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports, but not in an enclosure. Not sure
what you are trying to say. But it's not important, because it's not an advancement toward a solution.
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like this, for
all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never seeing the product or your money again.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 5:29:44 AM UTC-5, Theo wrote:
Paul Rubin <no.e...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Theo <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
Another thought is to find a common 'gender changer' case, a plastic case
that would take a DB9 connector at each end, and drop in your own PCB. eg
I think the hope is to not build hardware at all, including dropping boards into things, but instead to buy a complete and packaged box thatI know, but I don't think there are better options.
you can plug cables into. I'm surprised that it seems this difficult. Maybe it is an opportunity.
I'm not really surprised, because the existence of a piece of hardware depends on a pre-existing market for that hardware. The market for RS232-to-X is well established, for various X. But RS232 to RS232 seems less likely, because it's not clear what people would use it for.
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that. Others have extraYou indicated you wanted RS232-to-RS232, with no extra stuff. Not
ports. But none are programmable. There are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports, but not in an enclosure. Not sure
what you are trying to say. But it's not important, because it's not an advancement toward a solution.
hardwired, not a PC, not a pile of dongles plugged into another thing.
Show me the boxes that do that.
You can of course find boxes that happen to have two serial ports as well as (lots of) other stuff. But they're designed to do some other 'X' (eg Modbus), and aren't (officially) reprogrammable.
What is the use case for a programmable RS232-to-RS232 product?
If you can think of a use case, maybe you can find somebody who makes such a thing.
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never seeing the product or your money again.Alibaba is a good place to answer the question 'if you can think of it, does it exist?'. I would not buy them from there. But, for example, it turned
up the dual RS232 to Modbus converters. Once knowing that as a possible market I might then go and see if there was a sensible supplier of that.
Searching Alibaba did not come up with examples of boxes doing RS232 to RS232, which suggests that specifically is a market that doesn't really exist.
A PLC is one starting point - maybe there's a dual RS232 PLC out there. Alibaba shows various RS232 PLCs - maybe something like that would suffice (from a local supplier)?
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if not
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if notSeems you are 25 years to late. But this company is still selling
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
its device (with a Z180 processor). Seems this is what you are
asking for (but maybe without the price):
https://www.kksystems.com/programmable-protocol-converters/ppc-4-h2-c.html/ >> https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppclft.pdf
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppcman.pdf
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
I bought many things from Aliexpress an nearly never had
any problems.
I'm pleased for you. People safely cross streets outside the crosswalk, yet people are killed doing that every day. Do you tell your kids it's a good thing to do?
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if notSeems you are 25 years to late. But this company is still selling
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
its device (with a Z180 processor). Seems this is what you are
asking for (but maybe without the price):
https://www.kksystems.com/programmable-protocol-converters/ppc-4-h2-c.html/ https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppclft.pdf https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppcman.pdf
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
I bought many things from Aliexpress an nearly never had
any problems.
On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if notSeems you are 25 years to late. But this company is still selling
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
its device (with a Z180 processor). Seems this is what you are
asking for (but maybe without the price):
https://www.kksystems.com/programmable-protocol-converters/ppc-4-h2-c.html/
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppclft.pdf
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppcman.pdf
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
I bought many things from Aliexpress an nearly never had
any problems.
I'm pleased for you. People safely cross streets outside the crosswalk, yet people are killed doing that every day. Do you tell your kids it's a good thing to do?
Buying a $10 or a $100 thing at aliexpress is not that similar
to getting killed, you know.
I have bought a lot of small stuff there and have not yet been killed.
Oh yes, and I do cross streets as I please and I am still alive, but
that's not a very similar matter, as explained above.
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but some
On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote: >>>> On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:Buying a $10 or a $100 thing at aliexpress is not that similar
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if notSeems you are 25 years to late. But this company is still selling
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
its device (with a Z180 processor). Seems this is what you are
asking for (but maybe without the price):
https://www.kksystems.com/programmable-protocol-converters/ppc-4-h2-c.html/
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppclft.pdf
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppcman.pdf
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
I bought many things from Aliexpress an nearly never had
any problems.
I'm pleased for you. People safely cross streets outside the crosswalk, yet people are killed doing that every day. Do you tell your kids it's a good thing to do?
to getting killed, you know.
I have bought a lot of small stuff there and have not yet been killed.
Oh yes, and I do cross streets as I please and I am still alive, but
that's not a very similar matter, as explained above.
My experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end, they
I even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'dtry seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they are
Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but some
On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if notSeems you are 25 years to late. But this company is still selling
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
its device (with a Z180 processor). Seems this is what you are
asking for (but maybe without the price):
https://www.kksystems.com/programmable-protocol-converters/ppc-4-h2-c.html/
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppclft.pdf
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppcman.pdf
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
I bought many things from Aliexpress an nearly never had
any problems.
I'm pleased for you. People safely cross streets outside the crosswalk, yet people are killed doing that every day. Do you tell your kids it's a good thing to do?
Buying a $10 or a $100 thing at aliexpress is not that similar
to getting killed, you know.
I have bought a lot of small stuff there and have not yet been killed.
Oh yes, and I do cross streets as I please and I am still alive, but
that's not a very similar matter, as explained above.
My experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end, they
I even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'dtry seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they are
Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
What is the use case for a programmable RS232-to-RS232 product? If
you can think of a use case, maybe you can find somebody who makes
such a thing.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but some
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:
On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
You aren't making sense. There are literally hundreds if notSeems you are 25 years to late. But this company is still selling
thousands of boxes with two serial ports. Some have only that.
Others have extra ports. But none are programmable. There
are lots of programmable controllers with dual serial ports,
but not in an enclosure.
its device (with a Z180 processor). Seems this is what you are
asking for (but maybe without the price):
https://www.kksystems.com/programmable-protocol-converters/ppc-4-h2-c.html/
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppclft.pdf
https://www.kksystems.com/datasheets/pdf_files/ppcman.pdf
Alibaba is literally the last place I would by something like
this, for all the obvious reasons, including the risk of never
Yseeing the product or your money again.
I bought many things from Aliexpress an nearly never had
any problems.
I'm pleased for you. People safely cross streets outside the crosswalk, yet people are killed doing that every day. Do you tell your kids it's a good thing to do?
Buying a $10 or a $100 thing at aliexpress is not that similar
to getting killed, you know.
I have bought a lot of small stuff there and have not yet been killed. Oh yes, and I do cross streets as I please and I am still alive, but that's not a very similar matter, as explained above.
My experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end, they
try seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they areI even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'd
Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
IIUC Alibaba is intended for larger transactions and has different
rules than Aliexpress. I did only small or very small transactions.
For me problem with Ebay was that with cheap shipping things would
not arrive and there were no way to dispute this.
I can understand
this, without tracking there is no way to know who was to blame:
seller, mail or fraudolent customer. Tracked shipping was
significantly more expensive than goods that I wanted to buy.
OTOH things with cheap/free shipping ordered on Aliexpress were
arriving fine. So my conclusion was that Ebay sellers were at
fault and I stopped buying on Ebay.
There was period when also some shipments from Aliexpress vanished,
but AFAICS Aliexpress got this under control: they have reasonably
cheap tracked shipping and it seem that on all shipments they track
if package leaves China. That probably removes all incentives
for sellers to fail sending things.
Most Aliexpress seller have resonably high volumes. They sell
what customers want to buy. It can not be completely non functional,
there are not enough fools to support this.
The problem is
that most customers are unable or unwillig to fully examine
what they bought. So you get rechargable batteries with
completely bogus stated capacity or USB chargers with inflated
charging current. I bought a lot of things on Aliexpress
but I am trying to keep realistic expectations. I bought
few USB chargers knowing that stated current (2.1 A) is
much bigger than real one (0.85 A), but they were good enough
for my purpose. I bought resistors and small power transistors.
My reasoning was that making something that looks like resistor
or transistor in small/medium volume is probably more expensive
than real resistor/transistor in high volume. And hopefully
there are not enough fools to fund high volume manufacturing
of fake transistors.
Well, I got resistors and resonably
performing transistors. I can not say if there are some hidden
troubles but to the moment I am satisfied with what I bought.
In the past I bought few STM chips from Chinese sellers.
AFAIK those chips were widely used in China, the unit price was
much lower than unit price from western distributors, but
significantly higher that supposed volume price. So it
looked resonable that Chinese seller could sell them at lower
margin and still make a profit. And up to now I had no
problem with those chips.
OTOH if there is advanced/rare western part it would be strange
if Chinese seller had some magic cheap source of the part, so
I am very suspicious of such offers. Power mosfets were
borderline case. Around 2019 I bought packs of 10 from several
sellers. Essentially all were out of specs (too large Rds_on). If
there were moderate discrepancy I made comments stating real paramenter,
in few cases of really large discrepancy I requested partial
refund (and got it possibly after a dispute). To say the truth,
refunds that I got were probably not worth my time, I did this
mostly from feeling of moral duty, to make sure sellers know
that there is problem and to discourage them from selling such
bad parts.
When buying on Aliexpress it is useful to read buyers comments.
Especially Russians tend to measure/test bought parts, so you
can have resonable idea what you are buying.
BTW: classic Arduino boards are supposed to have Atmega 328P.
I have heard that recently a lot of boards instead had Chinese
chip. IIUC such boards also appeared in western distribution
channels, so it is possible that some Arduino boards that you
use is equpped with Chinese chip. On paper Chinese chip should
be better than Atmega 328P, but it has incompatiblities. For
simple use in Arduino it may be compatible enough, but in case
of troubles difference between chips is one of possible reasons.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
What is the use case for a programmable RS232-to-RS232 product? If
you can think of a use case, maybe you can find somebody who makes
such a thing.
The search is not for an RS232-to-RS232 product per se, but for a small computer with two RS232 ports. In the Z80 era, those used to be
plentiful. Of course they were considered full fledged personal
computers, in large expensive boxes, given the technology of time.
The lament is that there doesn't seem to be anything like that being
made today with modern technology. Just a small box with a programmable microprocessor inside, and two RS232 ports. All the available products
add a massive amount of additional complexity. It does seem like an opportunity.
Imagining making something like that for myself makes me feel dismayed. Besides the MCU board and enclosure, you also need a bunch of mounting screws, standoffs, connectors, an enclosure made of sheet metal, tools
to drill holes for the standoffs and make D-shaped cutouts for the DB9 connectors, burn-in testing for everything, yada yada yada. All that
stuff would have to be ordered from someplace, maybe multiple places.
Whenever I try to make anything physical, I invariably discover partway through that I need some 10 cent part that I didn't think of earlier, so
I have to order that and wait N days for its arrival, then repeat this process several times. This is why custom made anything costs so much.
It's not like programming where if I need some chunk of software, I can download it and have it a minute later.
It doesn't seem like THAT outlandish a wish to hope that box described instead exists as an off the shelf product from somewhere. It is weird
that it is so hard to find.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
What is the use case for a programmable RS232-to-RS232 product? If
you can think of a use case, maybe you can find somebody who makes
such a thing.
The search is not for an RS232-to-RS232 product per se, but for a small computer with two RS232 ports. In the Z80 era, those used to be
plentiful. Of course they were considered full fledged personal
computers, in large expensive boxes, given the technology of time.
The lament is that there doesn't seem to be anything like that being
made today with modern technology. Just a small box with a programmable microprocessor inside, and two RS232 ports. All the available products
add a massive amount of additional complexity. It does seem like an opportunity.
Imagining making something like that for myself makes me feel dismayed. Besides the MCU board and enclosure, you also need a bunch of mounting screws, standoffs, connectors, an enclosure made of sheet metal, tools
to drill holes for the standoffs and make D-shaped cutouts for the DB9 connectors, burn-in testing for everything, yada yada yada. All that
stuff would have to be ordered from someplace, maybe multiple places.
It doesn't seem like THAT outlandish a wish to hope that box described instead exists as an off the shelf product from somewhere. It is weird
that it is so hard to find.
ISTM that the entry-level product would be something with an ethernet
(or BT) port and ____________. Like a 1/2/3/etc. port terminal server
to bridge that obsolescent technology (EIA232) to more modern comms.
"You mean you have to connect that device directly to the machine
that USES it???"
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:58:49 PM UTC-5, anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:<snip>
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:
On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but someMy experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end, they
try seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they areI even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'd
<snip>Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
IIUC Alibaba is intended for larger transactions and has different
No, they send something, just not anything of value. Aliexpress can't seem to understand the ICs which don't work, are counterfeit and you don't have to test every one on the reel to know they are all crap. The real issue was the language barrier.They don't speak English, rather use automated translators in both directions, so don't understand half of what you are saying. They also don't understand what an IC is and think counterfeit is only for handbags.
Most Aliexpress seller have resonably high volumes. They sell
what customers want to buy. It can not be completely non functional,
there are not enough fools to support this.
LOL! If they buy counterfeit ICs at $0.05 each, they don't need to sell many at $5.00 to make profit.
transistor has a lot of markup if they only pay $0.001 each for a reject. It might work well enough to light the LED on a transistor tester.The problem is
that most customers are unable or unwillig to fully examine
what they bought. So you get rechargable batteries with
completely bogus stated capacity or USB chargers with inflated
charging current. I bought a lot of things on Aliexpress
but I am trying to keep realistic expectations. I bought
few USB chargers knowing that stated current (2.1 A) is
much bigger than real one (0.85 A), but they were good enough
for my purpose. I bought resistors and small power transistors.
My reasoning was that making something that looks like resistor
or transistor in small/medium volume is probably more expensive
than real resistor/transistor in high volume. And hopefully
there are not enough fools to fund high volume manufacturing
of fake transistors.
I don't think you understand. There are any number of things that look like the thing they are selling you, which will pass a visual inspection if you close one eye and have no idea what you are looking for. But they are fake. Even a $0.10
Well, I got resistors and resonably
performing transistors. I can not say if there are some hidden
troubles but to the moment I am satisfied with what I bought.
Sure, if you only need crap components, then you are good to go!
reviews in both directions and credibility would increase.In the past I bought few STM chips from Chinese sellers.
AFAIK those chips were widely used in China, the unit price was
much lower than unit price from western distributors, but
significantly higher that supposed volume price. So it
looked resonable that Chinese seller could sell them at lower
margin and still make a profit. And up to now I had no
problem with those chips.
OTOH if there is advanced/rare western part it would be strange
if Chinese seller had some magic cheap source of the part, so
I am very suspicious of such offers. Power mosfets were
borderline case. Around 2019 I bought packs of 10 from several
sellers. Essentially all were out of specs (too large Rds_on). If
there were moderate discrepancy I made comments stating real paramenter,
in few cases of really large discrepancy I requested partial
refund (and got it possibly after a dispute). To say the truth,
refunds that I got were probably not worth my time, I did this
mostly from feeling of moral duty, to make sure sellers know
that there is problem and to discourage them from selling such
bad parts.
When buying on Aliexpress it is useful to read buyers comments.
Especially Russians tend to measure/test bought parts, so you
can have resonable idea what you are buying.
I've never found any selling sites with good reviews. Many are made up from whole cloth. I recall when Ebay had some sort of rating system in both directions. There were vendors who would set up buyer accounts and buy things at a penny. Good
Eventually Ebay put an end to it, partly by all but eliminating reviews of buyers. Now, I find very few sellers with fewer than thousands of ratings. If they have few ratings, or are below 99% positive, I avoid them if I have choice. One thing I'velearned is to completely avoid flash drives on any of these sites. 90% of the time, they will fail a good memory test. Seems they use a flash drive 8 or 16 times smaller and flip the bits on the size reporting. They can sell a bunch of these before
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:they said I failed to prove the vendor was lying when he said he shipped the item listed. Photos were not good enough. They wanted a video for some reason. Alibaba simply does not support their customers, so I don't use them. Ebay is worth while, but
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 8:58:49 PM UTC-5, anti...@math.uni.wroc.pl wrote:<snip>
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 4:02:27 PM UTC-5, Dimiter wrote:
On 1/20/2023 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 1:17:59 PM UTC-5, Herbert Kleebauer wrote:
On 19.01.2023 19:06, Rick C wrote:
My experience with Alibaba is not the same as yours. With Ebay, I can dispute a sale and get a refund. Alibaba spent literally months demanding more and more things from me, many which made no sense because of the language barrier. In the end,
d try seeing how far this went. 16 gauge was actually 19 gauge and 12 gauge, was actually 15 gauge. The vendor could not say they didn't know, the wire insulation has *their* name on it! So it's a custom marked product. How could they not know they areI even bought crap wire on Ebay from a vendor relatively local. The actual wire gauge was about three numbers below the claimed AWG. Bought 20 gauge and got 23 gauge. Bought 18 gauge and got 21 gauge, etc. I was getting the refund, so I thought I'
They don't speak English, rather use automated translators in both directions, so don't understand half of what you are saying. They also don't understand what an IC is and think counterfeit is only for handbags.Yeah, they all sell crap. I just find it possible to get a refund from Ebay. Alibaba, not so much.
<snip>IIUC Alibaba is intended for larger transactions and has different
No, they send something, just not anything of value. Aliexpress can't seem to understand the ICs which don't work, are counterfeit and you don't have to test every one on the reel to know they are all crap. The real issue was the language barrier.
My impression was that verndors understood resonably well what I
wrote and answered sensibly.
The things were probably too small to
really involve a person from Aliexpress, communication from
Aliexpress looked like canned text. So really no big problem with
Engish, but potentially could be different if matters got more
complicated (more value at stake and vendor contradicting my claims).
BTW: Aliexpress want very much to translate offers into my native
Polish. Compared to English text that they have translations into
Polish are really funny/misleading.
Most Aliexpress seller have resonably high volumes. They sell
what customers want to buy. It can not be completely non functional, there are not enough fools to support this.
LOL! If they buy counterfeit ICs at $0.05 each, they don't need to sell many at $5.00 to make profit.In general, probably 1 in 100 customers makes comments dealing with
actual performance of given product. So after 100 sales, if thing is non-functional you can expect bad opinion and after that more folks
looking at what they get and cascade of more bad opinions.
Actually
if thing is completely non-functional I would expect complaints
much earlier. So maybe bad guy can collect few hundreds or maybe
some thousends dollars. If one could do such thing without a cost,
then surely, there would be a lot of folks doing this. But there
is probably some cost setting Aliexpress seller account and if
enetrprise is pure fraud, then Aliexpress is likely to take some
action (say via court or police).
My impression is that complete, pure fraud is not big problem.
Rather, problematic are goods that appear to work but are substandard
or have hidden defects.
has a lot of markup if they only pay $0.001 each for a reject. It might work well enough to light the LED on a transistor tester.The problem is
that most customers are unable or unwillig to fully examine
what they bought. So you get rechargable batteries with
completely bogus stated capacity or USB chargers with inflated
charging current. I bought a lot of things on Aliexpress
but I am trying to keep realistic expectations. I bought
few USB chargers knowing that stated current (2.1 A) is
much bigger than real one (0.85 A), but they were good enough
for my purpose. I bought resistors and small power transistors.
My reasoning was that making something that looks like resistor
or transistor in small/medium volume is probably more expensive
than real resistor/transistor in high volume. And hopefully
there are not enough fools to fund high volume manufacturing
of fake transistors.
I don't think you understand. There are any number of things that look like the thing they are selling you, which will pass a visual inspection if you close one eye and have no idea what you are looking for. But they are fake. Even a $0.10 transistor
I was writing about basic transitors like 2N3904, BC237 and similar.
AFAICS $0.10 for such transistor is well above market price.
Few
years ago 2N3904 from big American distributor was $0.0234 per piece when you wanted 500. About 10 years ago reputable local distributor had
basic types for equivelent of $0.015 per piece in quantities of 100.
And BF493 was half of that. This distributor had a warehouse and
same day (if order was early enough in the day) or next day shipping.
Chinese seller had batches of 100, with prices of order $1 per batch,
that is $0.01 per transitor. I was a bit curious so I looked at
availability numbers. Apparently he started from 10000 and counter
went relatively fast down. And then restarted from 10000. So
he was selling milions of transitors (10000 times 100 is milion).
I also looked at Farnell. For similar type they had something like
35000 and counters were slowly changing. So Chinese guy had _much_
larger volume than Farnell and almost surely much lower operating cost.
At prices between $0.10 and $0.20 per piece I got few TO-220
powers MOSFETS. They were out of specs and probably rejects:
both Rds_on and junction capacitance was larger than it should
be, so this was not smaller MOSFET relabeled as bigger one.
I consider them good enough for undemanding uses in experimental
circuits. Certainly I would not allow them to get anywhere
near production (too much risk that they would end up in
critical circuits).
Well, I got resistors and resonably
performing transistors. I can not say if there are some hidden
troubles but to the moment I am satisfied with what I bought.
Sure, if you only need crap components, then you are good to go!If I had extreme requirements, then I would not use 2N3904 or
BC237. But they are good enough for most uses.
in both directions and credibility would increase.In the past I bought few STM chips from Chinese sellers.
AFAIK those chips were widely used in China, the unit price was
much lower than unit price from western distributors, but
significantly higher that supposed volume price. So it
looked resonable that Chinese seller could sell them at lower
margin and still make a profit. And up to now I had no
problem with those chips.
OTOH if there is advanced/rare western part it would be strange
if Chinese seller had some magic cheap source of the part, so
I am very suspicious of such offers. Power mosfets were
borderline case. Around 2019 I bought packs of 10 from several
sellers. Essentially all were out of specs (too large Rds_on). If
there were moderate discrepancy I made comments stating real paramenter, in few cases of really large discrepancy I requested partial
refund (and got it possibly after a dispute). To say the truth,
refunds that I got were probably not worth my time, I did this
mostly from feeling of moral duty, to make sure sellers know
that there is problem and to discourage them from selling such
bad parts.
When buying on Aliexpress it is useful to read buyers comments. Especially Russians tend to measure/test bought parts, so you
can have resonable idea what you are buying.
I've never found any selling sites with good reviews. Many are made up from whole cloth. I recall when Ebay had some sort of rating system in both directions. There were vendors who would set up buyer accounts and buy things at a penny. Good reviews
There may be something like that at Aliexpress. But I meant actual
text of comments. It would take some effort to make up text that
is belivable and it is not clear what seller would gain.
Aliexpress
allow you to view opinions corresponding to given rating, so you
can look up why people give bad rating (while good ratings frequently
came with no text, bad ones usually give some justification).
learned is to completely avoid flash drives on any of these sites. 90% of the time, they will fail a good memory test. Seems they use a flash drive 8 or 16 times smaller and flip the bits on the size reporting. They can sell a bunch of these before theyEventually Ebay put an end to it, partly by all but eliminating reviews of buyers. Now, I find very few sellers with fewer than thousands of ratings. If they have few ratings, or are below 99% positive, I avoid them if I have choice. One thing I've
I never looked at flash drives online. I bought SD cards and at some
time there was flood of fake cards that reported much higher capacity
than they had. But then came programs that tested real capacity
and it seems that problem essentialy vanished. At least for
moderate capacities.
Crap! I posted about this in several forums and got nibbles from a few, including here. I stopped replying because the waters got more murky rather than more clear. So I wanted to wait until I had something more accurate to provide people. I amplanning to reply to you too Paul Rubin. I just have some of my own stuff to deal with first.
Meanwhile, someone sent a reply by a means I don't recall. He specifically mentioned that he had designed a product in a similar enclosure to what I want. I think he even mentioned it being IP67. But durned if I can find it. EEVBLOG has the worstmessaging facility. You get to see the messages coming to you, but not the messages you send. So no conversational context!
If this jogs anyone's memory, please contact me again.
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back after
the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost
track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design in
a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 11:35:18 PM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:custom board design was never needed, except that RS-232 voltage levels are needed at the serial port I/Os. Otherwise, an Arduino of some variation, would be ideal.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks. That is what I meant to say in the post, but I guess I glossed over that. I found a platform that is affordable, even if it is way overkill. A custom board design is not needed. Heck, a
BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back after the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design inYou still want someone to do this custom? What is your budget and how
a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.
many units do you want? Did you ever find out more about the
requirements? I know a good who is good at this stuff. You are
probably looking at $1000 or more of NRE, but spread across a few dozen units it might not be too bad, as the hardware itself should be quite cheap.
I will just write the software myself with the $300 platform I guess. Being a PC type platform, running an OS, updating the software is just a matter of copying a file from an SD card or a USB memory stick. It could even be hooked up through theEthernet port, although I'm not so familiar with that these days.
Years ago, I had a couple of desktop PCs running Win2k and from the info I found on the website World of Windows Networking, was able to connect them so the disk drives were available on either machine. I tried to do the same think a couple of yearsago and it was much, much harder. Microsoft has made networking much more complex now.
I did manage to find my way through management speak and arrive at a very simple set of requirements. In fact, the problem with the guy we currently have working on the effort, is he added requirements of his own, that mess up the operation we intended.We might still use his solution, if he can get it to work for us. But he's in the UK and this is mucking up the debugging.
This device goes between a sensor, and an EDAS, which is just an industrial computer acting as an intermediary, collecting other data and sending it all on to other receivers of the data. A product update in the sensor (third party product) changed thedata format. Before this new sensor was used, the translator was not needed. The translator makes the new sensor output compliant with the old sensor format which is expected downstream.
Serial formats are 9600, 8, N, 1. The input data is 1 line per second, output as soon as converted. A header is appended after each 20th input line. At these data rates, there will be no handshaking and no chance of any collisions.translator buffers. A watchdog timer could be used to reset the unit, if the software is lost in the weeds. The goal here is not for any data error checking, or other optimizations. If the old sensor produced any crap data, it didn't muck up the works
New data format on incoming message example:
# 032023 174930 23.024 6.79 17.37 12.44
Terminated with /r/n
Old data format on output message example:
01/30/23 19:15:28 21.788 6.23 17.41 12.66
Terminated by /r/n
The modifications in the data are removing the "# " at the beginning and inserting '\' and ':' into the date and time fields.
Every 20 lines a header should be inserted and sent to the output. If something corrupts the line count, it's not a problem.
===========================================
Date Time Temp SpCond pH ODO
m/d/y hh:mm:ss C mS/cm mg/L
-------------------------------------------
*** 1-LOG last sample 2-LOG ON/OFF, 3-Clean optics ***
Anything received that isn't in the input format specified above, should be sent on to the output. No other data should be sent to the output, such as boot messages. The only error checking should be that the line does not overflow the internal
I don't know for certain that the input data format is always the same length, so this should not be assumed. I would say an 80 character max length is a safe assumption. The /r/n should be the line delimiter. If garbage is received on the input beforea message, it will prevent detection of the start of the message, which is fine. As soon as the next /r/n is received, it will be back in alignment. That's all that matters.
If I had more free time, I would have this done by now. lol
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
BTW, to those who contacted me about this and haven't heard back afterYou still want someone to do this custom? What is your budget and how
the initial exchange, I'm sorry. I got busy with my own work and lost track of the emails. Of those who did reply, only one had a design in
a box, ready for software. But that is not yet working.
many units do you want? Did you ever find out more about the
requirements? I know a good who is good at this stuff. You are
probably looking at $1000 or more of NRE, but spread across a few dozen units it might not be too bad, as the hardware itself should be quite cheap.
The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20 in a few months. After that, not sure.
If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.
The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20
in a few months. After that, not sure.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
pick some enclosure
out of a catalog, put the stuff together, get the code running on the
board and test everything, etc. Then send the assembled unit to the
actual deployment site for in situ testing before making more units.
There is always some stuff going wrong or consuming time in any process
like that. Thus there will be some NRE.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20You are really willing to spend $300 per box in that quantity? So $6000
in a few months. After that, not sure.
or $12000 depending? This sounds very doable.
Where is the deployment site geographically?
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
The number of units required is initially 20, and probably another 20 in a few months. After that, not sure.We've been here before, but there are many many 'mini PCs' (often Celeron or similar low power CPU) coming out of China that have multiple RS232 ports. There doesn't seem to be much special about this one.
If such a 'mini PC' is within your spec (you were talking about microcontrollers originally), it's just a case of finding a distributor who meets your requirements. Easiest is to just go on Aliexpress [1] and buy them, but if that's not your thing then I'm sure there is a US/wherever importer.
If you're going to need many years worth of supply that's a bit trickier, since they tend to update the product lines every time Intel releases a new chip.
Theo
[1] https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-mini-pc-rs232.html
That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232
support.
Sounds great. Do you have a proposal?
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.
Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them.
Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially,
with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.
Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?
Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them. >> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?
Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBr...@t-online.de> wrote:
Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 11:54:54 AM UTC-4, Paul Rubin wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
If you are talking about someone to build a board, no thanks.No, building a board would be crazy unless you're making 1000s of them. >> Pick an Arduino or similar board with RS232 support,
That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf board.
Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232 level shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford using ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?The problem is that commercial microcontroller boards like Arduinos tend to have TTL level serial ports (or USB ones). If you want a box holding one of those with some RS232 ports, you need to make a PCB with a MAX232 and a DB9, and an enclosure to match. Rick was trying to find a box with all that already done for him and drew a blank.
It's not the design that's the problem, it's the manufacturing.
Although for quantity 20 at these kind of price points, I might be tempted to build something using dev boards, eg: https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1030.html
and maybe a bit of 3D printing for an enclosure. For two of those boards
you might need to hand-patch one to use different pins, but it's not hard and could be done.
If the customer is willing to pay $300 a unit it might be worth Rick's (or somebody else's) time to do it. I'll be happy to take that contract, email address works :-)
I was skimming the web for this again and I think I found something from Aaeon. Not sure why I didn't find this before. Maybe I did, but at that time was really looking for something with a simple CPU, rather than something to run a full OS.Beggars and choosers...
https://eshop.aaeon.com/ultra-slim-box-pc-boxer-6405.htmlin a day or something, as long as it comes
This one is $366, which is more than I'd like, but beggars... It is cheaper than the tailored unit a guy is working on for us. A sample unit doesn't work right and debugging across an ocean is not working very well. I could have this up and running
On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM UTC-4, Theo wrote:
This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the DB9 is the data output?
If the customer is willing to pay $300 a unit it might be worth Rick's (or somebody else's) time to do it. I'll be happy to take that contract, email address works :-)
You will need to post an email address. GG doesn't provide the email. Just HBBr...@t-online.de
https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=33 https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=35
On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 7:45:03 AM UTC-4, Hans-Bernhard Bröker
wrote:
Am 24.03.2023 um 09:02 schrieb Rick C:
That's one of the problems. Boards like Arduinos do not have
RS-232 support. They have serial ports, but that's what was tried
initially, with a home brew RS-232 level shifter added on a perf
board.
Color me puzzled. Why on earth would anyone home-brew an RS232
level shifter, particularly for a project that could clearly afford
using ready-made ICs like MAX232 instead?
That's what they used. I simply meant it was not a commercial
product on a PCB. Half the units have some problem.
Did you think I meant they designed their own level shifter chip?
The problem is that commercial microcontroller boards like Arduinos tend to have TTL level serial ports (or USB ones). If you want a box holding one of those with some RS232 ports, you need to make a PCB with a MAX232 and a DB9, and an enclosure to match. Rick was trying to find a box with all that already done for him and drew a blank.
On 22.03.2023 20:18, Rick C wrote:and choosers...
I was skimming the web for this again and I think I found something from Aaeon. Not sure why I didn't find this before. Maybe I did, but at that time was really looking for something with a simple CPU, rather than something to run a full OS. Beggars
in a day or something, as long as it comeshttps://eshop.aaeon.com/ultra-slim-box-pc-boxer-6405.html
This one is $366, which is more than I'd like, but beggars... It is cheaper than the tailored unit a guy is working on for us. A sample unit doesn't work right and debugging across an ocean is not working very well. I could have this up and running
with Linux installed.
A lot of power consumption for such a task! An Atmel board
would only consume about 0.4 W, for example something like
that:
https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=33 https://www.ledato.de/product_info.php?products_id=35
The price is crazy, but there should be similar
devices for only 1/5 of this price.
This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the
DB9 is the data output?
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on theThe pinout is given here: https://wiki.dfrobot.com/RS232_Shield
DB9 is the data output?
How do you feel about using that board, with an Arduino? Digikey stocks
it, if that helps:
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/dfrobot/DFR0258/6588574
How do you feel about recycling the enclosure from one of those port selector switches discussed a while back?
Here is a Lilygo board which has an ESP32-C3 MCU and RS232 among
other things, for $17.98: https://www.lilygo.cc/products/t-rsc3
It is shipped from China so maybe doesn't fulfill requirements because
of that, but it at least shows that such a product exists.
Article about it with an Aliexpress redirect link (it is also sold
through there):
https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/01/20/lilygo-t-rsc3-esp32-c3-board-features-isolated-rs232-rs485-interfaces-5-to-24v-dc-input/
Direct Aliexpress
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005136988162.html
Here is an Olimex MSP430 board with RS232 for around $32:
https://www.olimex.com/Products/MSP430/Starter/MSP430-5438-STK/
It is available at Mouser, though they only have 9 in stock right now:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Olimex-Ltd/MSP430-5438STK?qs=BoUPAr39LHyy3j%2FN0eUzfQ%3D%3D
It is also on Digikey's site, but out of stock there.
There are more Olimex boards with RS232 that I didn't look up.
You mentioned that you didn't want to use an external FTDI cable on a
USB port. What about having an FTDI dongle inside the box, installed so
that its DB9 connector is panel mounted?
https://ftdichip.com/products/usb-com232-plus1/ https://ftdichip.com/products/db9-usb-f/
TTL to RS232 (?): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/449
Similar: https://www.waveshare.com/wiki/RS232_Board
Regarding the locations: are any in the western US?
Although for quantity 20 at these kind of price points, I might be tempted >> to build something using dev boards, eg:
https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1030.html
and maybe a bit of 3D printing for an enclosure. For two of those boards
you might need to hand-patch one to use different pins, but it's not hard
and could be done.
This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the DB9 is the data output?
You didn't answer the question. Which pin is the data output and
which is the data input?
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/dfrobot/DFR0258/6588574Are you going to make the cable required?
Recycling is not a problem, as long as there is no branding on the box.
Are you going to write the USB stack to run on the simple CPUs you
have linked to?
TTL to RS232 (?): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/449I don't know why you are showing all these devices.
Similar: https://www.waveshare.com/wiki/RS232_Board
I don't know. Why does this matter? You won't be visiting the
customer's site.
You seem to be thrashing around in looking at every little board that
might or might not do the job, rather than finding one that will.
The single port boards you've identified have the DB9 connector, but
you don't indicate how you will split this into the two connectors
required for the job. Do you understand the requirements?
(DCE), rather than data terminal equipment (DTR). If it was DTR, the
two pins would be switched around.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
You didn't answer the question. Which pin is the data output andThe transmit pin (TXD, pin 2 in that table) is the output and the
which is the data input?
receive pin (RXD, pin 3) is the input. Since it is a female connector,
by the standard, the box is considered data communications equipment
(DCE), rather than data terminal equipment (DTR). If it was DTR, the
two pins would be switched around. Is that what you are asking? In any
case, one always has to test to be sure.
A splitter cable? I thought I posted a url to order those from.https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/dfrobot/DFR0258/6588574Are you going to make the cable required?
Recycling is not a problem, as long as there is no branding on the box.There could be a label with your own branding, strategically placed to
cover up any existing branding, if that works for you.
Are you going to write the USB stack to run on the simple CPUs youIt exists already on some of them. I wouldn't write a new one.
have linked to?
There are tons of cpus with built in UARTsTTL to RS232 (?): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/449I don't know why you are showing all these devices.
Similar: https://www.waveshare.com/wiki/RS232_Board
I don't know. Why does this matter? You won't be visiting theSomebody at some point might have to do that. I hope not, but the
customer's site.
saying is, hope for the best and plan for the worst.
Frankly the first thing I would try is taking one of your homebrew boxes that is known to be failing, swapping out the homemade level shifter PCB with one of the ones linked above, and seeing if that works. Or at
least, use a scope to check the voltages coming out of the homemade PCB.
You seem to be thrashing around in looking at every little board that might or might not do the job, rather than finding one that will.It is a two step process: 1) identify possible candidates; 2) pick one.
Posting links to those boards is in part a demonstration that such
boards exist.
The single port boards you've identified have the DB9 connector, butI believe so. There are premade splitter cables that separate pins 2
you don't indicate how you will split this into the two connectors required for the job. Do you understand the requirements?
and 3 from a DB9 into two more DB9's, or such a thing can be made, or (preferable) one can use a CPU with two serial ports (or USB split into
two ports). The splitter cable can be inside the box since IIRC you
don't want it flopping around on the outside. Then the two DB9's would
be on the rear panel.
On 3/24/2023 8:08 AM, Rick C wrote:
Although for quantity 20 at these kind of price points, I might be tempted
to build something using dev boards, eg:
https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1030.html
and maybe a bit of 3D printing for an enclosure. For two of those boards >> you might need to hand-patch one to use different pins, but it's not hard >> and could be done.
This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the DB9 is the data output?"Nominal" signal directions are specified from the standpoint of the *DTE*. Remember that one rule and everything else falls into place. I.e., a DCE *receives* data on the "Transmit Data" pin and transmits on the "Receive Data" pin.
[Null Modem cables came into being because DTEs wanted to talk to DTEs.
So, *both* want to transmit on the TxD signal -- and thus need a pin
swap in the cable to connect out-to-in and in-to-out... even though
both are TxD]
DTE, by convention, use *male* connectors. That's the second thing to remember.
Identify pin #1. Count sideways to the next pin; that will be RxD -- the INPUT for the DTE device. The next pin will be TxD -- the OUTPUT for the
DTE device. (This for a DB9; using a DB25 changes this relative order).
It's not that hard (though folks tend to confuse themselves by getting
the frame of reference wrong -- esp when looking at UART chipsets
that want to label their pins TxD and RxD -- even if they are wired to
RxD and TxD, respectively, on the DB9, as is the case when implementing
a DCE).
Folks have historically bastardized all of these conventions -- for
"good reasons" (or, so they thought). But, a device (module) designed
for general use IN THE 21st CENTURY should have been designed with some adherence to convention (i.e., male connector for DTE, female for DCE;
DTE transmits on TxD, DCE transmits on RxD). It's highly unlikely
that you're going to find a device that handshakes using SRTS or RLSD!
The roles of the control signals can quickly become confused as older
kit uses them in the original *interlocked* fashion of RS232C while
newer interpretations of the standard(s) have altered that behavior
(because most devices aren't as pathetically slow as 103 modems!)
[But, I think TWX, TELEX, et al. are long dead and gone]
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
You are providing links to hardware. I'm asking you which pin is dataDidn't I answer? I wrote:
out and which pin is data in? This is a very simple question, no?
Pin 2 = data out, pin 3 = data in. Is something missing from thatThe transmit pin (TXD, pin 2 in that table) is the output and the
receive pin (RXD, pin 3) is the input.
answer? There is a possibility that it is wrong and that the two are switched, but that would show up immediately during testing.
It sounded to me like it should, but part of the task is to put theA splitter cable? I thought I posted a url to order those from.Do you know if that splitter will work for this application?
stuff together and test it.
Anyway I think it is better to use a board
with two uarts. I checked, and the Arduino Leonardo has two, so it
sounds like that is a suitable board if you want to use the Arduino approach.
Can't use a USB dongle if there's no USB software.The USB software is present in the boards that have USB host ports.
There are tons of cpus with built in UARTsTTL to RS232 (?): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/449I don't know why you are showing all these devices.
Similar: https://www.waveshare.com/wiki/RS232_Board
Having a UART is not sufficient. The interface needs to be a DB9Right, that is the purpose of those boards that I linked. To convert
male, RS-232 voltage levels. One connector for the input data, and
one connector for the output data.
TTL levels to RS232 levels. You connect the UART to the level converter board. That is pretty much the same thing that you already did with the homemade MAX232(?) PCB, thus the idea of swapping in this other board
and seeing if it works where your existing one doesn't.
That is far outside your concern.I am glad to hear this. So what happens if I ship you boxes that I've
tested on my bench and that supply the right voltages as shown on a
scope, but only half of them work at the customer site, like with your boards? Who is responsible?
Have you picked one yet?The Leonardo looks good to me but obviously I would want to test an evaluation unit before settling on it.
Does the splitter cable run a signal to pins 2 and 3 on both cables?I would have to check that. However, disconnecting pin 2 or 3 can in a
I've yet to find one that connects to pin 2 on one connector and pin 3
on the other connector, leaving the other pins 2 and 3 unconnected.
cable like that can be done with a wire cutter.
I think you will find the splitter cable will need to be a customThe suggestion further up is to use that level shifter card.
design. It's probably easier to just use a CPU without a DB9 and
build a cable to run from the header to the two DB9s on the box. But
then you will need a CPU card with RS232 level shifters.
This is why I don't want to do the design. It's messy and far tooYes, that's why nobody else wanted to do it either until you mentioned a figure of $300 per box. That is enough to cover the necessary amount of derping around that always afflicts a project like this. You've done a
much work for something so simple.
lot more hardware stuff than I have, so I shouldn't be the one who has
to explain that.
On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 6:35:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/24/2023 8:08 AM, Rick C wrote:
"Nominal" signal directions are specified from the standpoint of the *DTE*. >> Remember that one rule and everything else falls into place. I.e., a DCEAlthough for quantity 20 at these kind of price points, I might be tempted >>>> to build something using dev boards, eg:
https://www.dfrobot.com/product-1030.html
and maybe a bit of 3D printing for an enclosure. For two of those boards >>>> you might need to hand-patch one to use different pins, but it's not hard >>>> and could be done.
This device is exactly what makes this difficult. Which pin on the DB9 is the data output?
*receives* data on the "Transmit Data" pin and transmits on the "Receive
Data" pin.
[Null Modem cables came into being because DTEs wanted to talk to DTEs.
So, *both* want to transmit on the TxD signal -- and thus need a pin
swap in the cable to connect out-to-in and in-to-out... even though
both are TxD]
DTE, by convention, use *male* connectors. That's the second thing to
remember.
Identify pin #1. Count sideways to the next pin; that will be RxD -- the
INPUT for the DTE device. The next pin will be TxD -- the OUTPUT for the
DTE device. (This for a DB9; using a DB25 changes this relative order).
It's not that hard (though folks tend to confuse themselves by getting
the frame of reference wrong -- esp when looking at UART chipsets
that want to label their pins TxD and RxD -- even if they are wired to
RxD and TxD, respectively, on the DB9, as is the case when implementing
a DCE).
Folks have historically bastardized all of these conventions -- for
"good reasons" (or, so they thought). But, a device (module) designed
for general use IN THE 21st CENTURY should have been designed with some
adherence to convention (i.e., male connector for DTE, female for DCE;
DTE transmits on TxD, DCE transmits on RxD). It's highly unlikely
that you're going to find a device that handshakes using SRTS or RLSD!
The roles of the control signals can quickly become confused as older
kit uses them in the original *interlocked* fashion of RS232C while
newer interpretations of the standard(s) have altered that behavior
(because most devices aren't as pathetically slow as 103 modems!)
[But, I think TWX, TELEX, et al. are long dead and gone]
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which is the data input?
You are providing links to hardware. I'm asking you which pin is data
out and which pin is data in? This is a very simple question, no?
The transmit pin (TXD, pin 2 in that table) is the output and the
receive pin (RXD, pin 3) is the input.
A splitter cable? I thought I posted a url to order those from.Do you know if that splitter will work for this application?
Can't use a USB dongle if there's no USB software.The USB software is present in the boards that have USB host ports.
There are tons of cpus with built in UARTsTTL to RS232 (?): https://www.sparkfun.com/products/449I don't know why you are showing all these devices.
Similar: https://www.waveshare.com/wiki/RS232_Board
Having a UART is not sufficient. The interface needs to be a DB9
male, RS-232 voltage levels. One connector for the input data, and
one connector for the output data.
That is far outside your concern.
Have you picked one yet?
Does the splitter cable run a signal to pins 2 and 3 on both cables?
I've yet to find one that connects to pin 2 on one connector and pin 3
on the other connector, leaving the other pins 2 and 3 unconnected.
I think you will find the splitter cable will need to be a custom
design. It's probably easier to just use a CPU without a DB9 and
build a cable to run from the header to the two DB9s on the box. But
then you will need a CPU card with RS232 level shifters.
This is why I don't want to do the design. It's messy and far too
much work for something so simple.
I'm trying to get you to understand the issues, but you just aren't
getting it. I don't know how a cable I have no info on is wired. But
if pin 3 on the CPU connector goes to pin 2 on both of the cable
connectors, then it's not likely to work properly is it? Two drivers
on the same pin sound like a bad idea to me.
[Arduino Leonardo] Does it have RS-232 driver chips?
I would hope so. Do any of the boards you are talking about have USB
host ports?
When you get the details worked out, and wish to discuss a price, let
me know through email.
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is
the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which
is the data input?
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which
is the data input?
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the
RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on
TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins
these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
I often have this problem with people who don't actually understand
how RS-232 is used. There are people who view the world through data
sheets and specification standards. Then there's the real world,
where you have to toss out some of that, and ask questions like,
"Which pin is output and which pin is input?" If the person you are
talking to gives you anything other than a pin number, you are talking
to the wrong person.
Many years ago I often had to connect up gear with RS232 interfaces, and
it was a pain, as there was often no manual for the gear or the manual
was badly written and the author used the RS232 "standard" terms in a cavalier way.
So I used an RS232 breakout box to try and identify RXD and TXD, and
what the various pins did, and what had to be strapped to what to get
either end to speak! Oh happy days - NOT!
Good luck with the project.
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is
the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which
is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the
RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on
TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins
these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned: <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
On 2023-03-26, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
I often have this problem with people who don't actually understandMany years ago I often had to connect up gear with RS232 interfaces, and
how RS-232 is used. There are people who view the world through data sheets and specification standards. Then there's the real world,
where you have to toss out some of that, and ask questions like,
"Which pin is output and which pin is input?" If the person you are talking to gives you anything other than a pin number, you are talking
to the wrong person.
it was a pain, as there was often no manual for the gear or the manual
was badly written and the author used the RS232 "standard" terms in a cavalier way.
So I used an RS232 breakout box to try and identify RXD and TXD, and
what the various pins did, and what had to be strapped to what to get
either end to speak! Oh happy days - NOT!
Good luck with the project.
On 3/26/2023 11:27 AM, Jim Jackson wrote:
Many years ago I often had to connect up gear with RS232 interfaces, and it was a pain, as there was often no manual for the gear or the manualFolks who haven't designed communications equipment where RS232 (in its various bastardized forms) don't understand that commenting on a product chosen (seemingly) at random from a producer of unknown character is
was badly written and the author used the RS232 "standard" terms in a cavalier way.
pure folly. Simply because the folks who design said pieces of
kit are operating often in ignorance -- trying to make a device that
mates with X instead of a device that conforms to a standard.
On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.And you apparently do neither. <frown>
On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is
the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which
is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the
RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins
these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.Rick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as "guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could
examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
beyond laughable.
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!, >> etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned: <https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server: <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
(I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8> >>
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!, >>>> etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54> >> And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
(I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Hard to believe the long fossilized RS-232 horse can get all that
beating again...
Next thing let's beat the baud rate detection? :D
On 27/03/2023 04:30, Rick C wrote:
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Rick, why are /you/ here? You have been on Usenet for decades, but
still seem to struggle with the basics.
A group like this is a discussion group. It is not your personal
support channel.
You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights
to the thread. If Don wants to post here, he can post here. If he
wants to ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice. Ignore
his posts if you don't like them.
You have spent this thread bullying and insulting people, pushing them
into doing your work for free. When it looks like some here might be possible paid suppliers, you undermine and patronise them.
When you come looking for help and advice, it's fair enough to disagree
- but we can do without the sarcasm and belittlement of your responses.
And if you want to killfile me for writing some hard truths, go ahead.
But first you'll have to figure out how to use Usenet instead of blaming Google Groups for your own problems.
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have >>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function >>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!, >>>> etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
(I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick CRick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is >>>> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which >>>> is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the
RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications
equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on >>> TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins
these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
"guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could
examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
beyond laughable.
The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard. I expect that of you. I don't know George so well.
I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.No, YOU haven't. I twice made the statements about the standard.
You didn't get the hint. Instead, you assumed I would engage you
in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be.
In plain english: THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE THAT *YOU* SELECTED. (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be avoiding in favor of being argumentative)
You're the one who picked the device. Did you *expect* it to adhere
to a standard? ANY standard? If so, why? If not, why not?
Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*)
and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers
from the vendor leave you distraught.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:03:06 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
....
You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights
to the thread. If Don wants to post here, he can post here. If he
wants to ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of
experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice. Ignore
his posts if you don't like them.
Correct that I don't own the group or the thread. I'm simply pointing out that in contrast to convention and courteous behavior, Don is trashing this thread.
On 3/27/2023 17:11, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:03:06 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
....
You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights
to the thread. If Don wants to post here, he can post here. If he
wants to ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of
experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice. Ignore >> his posts if you don't like them.
Correct that I don't own the group or the thread. I'm simply pointing out that in contrast to convention and courteous behavior, Don is trashing this thread.Oh stop it Rick.
Your initial question - about board availability - was
valid, you must have googled, not found anything and asked here; so
far so good.
Then you started talking about signal polarities, RS-232 standards etc., things most people here have leaned how to deal with 30 or so years ago.
It does not get much lamer than that.
And now you complain you got too much detail or whatever, eventually
you discovered that only a wintel PC is your off the shelf option etc.
etc. lame stuff.
It was obvious after the first 2-3 posts you would not find what you initially asked for as being mass produced, why all the whining now.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:03:06 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 27/03/2023 04:30, Rick C wrote:
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far moreRick, why are /you/ here? You have been on Usenet for decades, but
description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of
which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You
have gone completely off topic.
still seem to struggle with the basics.
A group like this is a discussion group. It is not your personal
support channel.
Correct, but it is not appropriate to hijack a thread. Doing that
turns every group into s.e.d.
You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights to the
thread. If Don wants to post here, he can post here. If he wants to
ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of
experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice.
Ignore his posts if you don't like them.
Correct that I don't own the group or the thread. I'm simply
pointing out that in contrast to convention and courteous behavior,
Don is trashing this thread.
You have spent this thread bullying and insulting people, pushing
them into doing your work for free. When it looks like some here
might be possible paid suppliers, you undermine and patronise
them.
LOL! How on earth do you bully anyone in a newsgroup? You are just
being silly now.
When you come looking for help and advice, it's fair enough to
disagree - but we can do without the sarcasm and belittlement of
your responses.
I'm pretty sure Don is the only person I've been anything but polite
to. That's because Don has been anything but polite. Don's posts
have been like walking up to a couple of strangers on the street,
having a conversation, and inviting himself to join in with comments
that have nothing to do with what they were discussing. Not
acceptable there, not acceptable here.
And if you want to killfile me for writing some hard truths, go
ahead. But first you'll have to figure out how to use Usenet
instead of blaming Google Groups for your own problems.
Sounds like you are the one with complaints that would make you want
to kill file someone.
Bye
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:47:28 AM UTC-4, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
On 3/27/2023 17:11, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:03:06 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:Oh stop it Rick.
....
You do not have any rights to the group, or any rights
to the thread. If Don wants to post here, he can post here. If he
wants to ramble or rant (and he does like doing that - he has a lot of >>>> experience and likes to share), that's his right and his choice. Ignore >>>> his posts if you don't like them.
Correct that I don't own the group or the thread. I'm simply pointing out that in contrast to convention and courteous behavior, Don is trashing this thread.
No, YOU stop it!
Your initial question - about board availability - was
valid, you must have googled, not found anything and asked here; so
far so good.
Then you started talking about signal polarities, RS-232 standards etc.,
things most people here have leaned how to deal with 30 or so years ago.
It does not get much lamer than that.
And now you complain you got too much detail or whatever, eventually
you discovered that only a wintel PC is your off the shelf option etc.
etc. lame stuff.
It was obvious after the first 2-3 posts you would not find what you
initially asked for as being mass produced, why all the whining now.
Why do you feel you needed to post any of this? Why are you whining?
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a >>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label >>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have >>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function >>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!, >>>>>> etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
(I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:No, YOU haven't. I twice made the statements about the standard.
On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick CRick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is >>>>>> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this
device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which >>>>>> is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the
RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications
equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on >>>>> TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins
these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
"guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could
examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
beyond laughable.
The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard. I expect that of you. I don't know George so well.
I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
You didn't get the hint. Instead, you assumed I would engage you
in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be.
In plain english: THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE >> THAT *YOU* SELECTED. (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be
avoiding in favor of being argumentative)
You're the one who picked the device. Did you *expect* it to adhere
to a standard? ANY standard? If so, why? If not, why not?
Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*)
and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers
from the vendor leave you distraught.
Don, you very clearly have no understanding of the posts I have made. Please don't bother to reply until you do.
Thank you,
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with >> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how >> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a >>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label >>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have >>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function >>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT >>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard >>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
On 3/27/2023 7:05 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:No, YOU haven't. I twice made the statements about the standard.
On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick CRick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is >>>>>> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this >>>>>> device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which >>>>>> is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the >>>>> RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications >>>>> equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on >>>>> TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins >>>>> these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
"guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could
examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
beyond laughable.
The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard. I expect that of you. I don't know George so well.
I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
You didn't get the hint. Instead, you assumed I would engage you
in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be.
In plain english: THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE
THAT *YOU* SELECTED. (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be >> avoiding in favor of being argumentative)
You're the one who picked the device. Did you *expect* it to adhere
to a standard? ANY standard? If so, why? If not, why not?
Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*)
and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers
from the vendor leave you distraught.
Don, you very clearly have no understanding of the posts I have made. Please don't bother to reply until you do.I suspect it is you who don't understand what you're saying.
"Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which is the data input?"
I gave you a very deliberate and accurate answer to this explicit question.
To paraphrase:
"If the person you are talking to gives you a pin number, you are talking to the wrong person."
Think about it.
Thank you,
Ah, Officer Rick has spoken! I;m shaking in my boots!
Here's a guy who rules out "a board and a box to be assembled"...
but is only making *20* of them!
Would plugging in a wall wart be too high of a burden, as well?
What about taking it out of the packing material?
Grow the f*ck up, "ricky". By *your* admission, you're neither an
engineer nor a technician. So, wander back to accounting school
and juggle some numbers in a book -- MAYBE you might have a
proclivity for that! Engineering? Not.
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:18:15 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:doubt you will review the thread. Even if you do, I expect you will continue to not understand the question.
On 3/27/2023 7:05 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:I suspect it is you who don't understand what you're saying.
On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:No, YOU haven't. I twice made the statements about the standard.
On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick CRick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is >>>>>>>> the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this >>>>>>>> device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which >>>>>>>> is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE).
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the >>>>>>> RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications >>>>>>> equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on >>>>>>> TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins >>>>>>> these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
"guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could
examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
beyond laughable.
The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard. I expect that of you. I don't know George so well.
I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
You didn't get the hint. Instead, you assumed I would engage you
in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be.
In plain english: THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE
THAT *YOU* SELECTED. (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be >>>> avoiding in favor of being argumentative)
You're the one who picked the device. Did you *expect* it to adhere
to a standard? ANY standard? If so, why? If not, why not?
Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*)
and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers
from the vendor leave you distraught.
Don, you very clearly have no understanding of the posts I have made. Please don't bother to reply until you do.
"Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this device, which pin on >> the DB9 connector is the data output and which is the data input?"
I gave you a very deliberate and accurate answer to this explicit question.
Exactly. You gave a dissertation to answer a question that has not been asked. The worst part is, you can't understand why your answer is not relevant. That's because you are doing a great job of talking, but a crap job of listening. I seriously
To paraphrase:
"If the person you are talking to gives you a pin number, you are talking to >> the wrong person."
Even though, that is what I'm asking for, a pin number. See how you fail to comprehend the question?
Think about it.
I'm trying to get you to do just that. But you are in output mode, and have ceased all input activities.
Thank you,
Ah, Officer Rick has spoken! I;m shaking in my boots!
Now, you are just being weird.
Here's a guy who rules out "a board and a box to be assembled"...
but is only making *20* of them!
Again, you are projecting. You know virtually none of the facts, but you feel you know more about the problem than I do. Can you not understand your error?
Would plugging in a wall wart be too high of a burden, as well?
What about taking it out of the packing material?
Now you are just being silly, a silly, silly boy.
Grow the f*ck up, "ricky". By *your* admission, you're neither an
engineer nor a technician. So, wander back to accounting school
and juggle some numbers in a book -- MAYBE you might have a
proclivity for that! Engineering? Not.
Wow! Such a defensive attitude. Rather than ask a single question, to learn what you don't know, you insist on being silly.
So what do you think my background is, exactly?
Err... maybe I shouldn't be feeding the troll? Or can you actually answer the question with a reply intended to communicate?
Looking forward to your reply.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with >>>> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how >>>> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a >>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label >>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have >>>>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function >>>>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT >>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to
have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard >>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted
AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to
one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
On 3/27/2023 10:09 AM, Rick C wrote:doubt you will review the thread. Even if you do, I expect you will continue to not understand the question.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:18:15 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:05 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:I suspect it is you who don't understand what you're saying.
On 3/26/2023 7:25 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:25:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:No, YOU haven't. I twice made the statements about the standard.
On 3/25/2023 6:42 PM, George Neuner wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2023 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick CRick doesn't understand how the Standard is interpreted solely as >>>>>> "guidance", in the real world. The idea that someone ELSE could >>>>>> examine *his* choice of device from *his* chosen vendor and
<gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
Excellent Don. Now, please tell me which unit is the DCE and which is
the DTE? Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this >>>>>>>> device, which pin on the DB9 connector is the data output and which >>>>>>>> is the data input?
"Terminal Equipment" (TE) vs "Communications Equipment" (CE). >>>>>>>
DTE is the computer (terminal), DCE is the modem. To adhere to the >>>>>>> RS-232 conventions, your external device has to be "communications >>>>>>> equipment".
Don explained the cables and how the signaling works. DTE transmits on
TxD, and receives on RxD. DCE does the reverse. Which physical pins >>>>>>> these are on depends on the form factor: DB9 or DB25.
RS-232 pinout diagrams are very easy to find. Try Google.
comment, in any meaningful way, suggests a naivite that's
beyond laughable.
The comedy here, is that both of you think I was saying anything about RS-232 being useful here, as other than a voltage level standard. I expect that of you. I don't know George so well.
I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
You didn't get the hint. Instead, you assumed I would engage you
in a pointless discussion about what the pinout *could* be.
In plain english: THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE HERE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT THE DEVICE
THAT *YOU* SELECTED. (unless they want to do the work that you seem to be
avoiding in favor of being argumentative)
You're the one who picked the device. Did you *expect* it to adhere >>>> to a standard? ANY standard? If so, why? If not, why not?
Spend a few dollars (as you've likely spent that much in *time*)
and buy one to examine -- if your attempts at getting answers
from the vendor leave you distraught.
Don, you very clearly have no understanding of the posts I have made. Please don't bother to reply until you do.
"Or better yet, just answer the question asked, on this device, which pin on
the DB9 connector is the data output and which is the data input?"
I gave you a very deliberate and accurate answer to this explicit question.
Exactly. You gave a dissertation to answer a question that has not been asked. The worst part is, you can't understand why your answer is not relevant. That's because you are doing a great job of talking, but a crap job of listening. I seriously
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
And, if you DID find such a person (to have done your work for you
so YOU wouldn't have to shell out a few bucks to do your own
exploration), would you then have asked about some OTHER board?
Or, inquired as to whether it supported XON/XOFF flow control?
Or, whether the vendor supplied driver could control the direction
of a transceiver?
Or...
I.e., all of the questions you should be able to answer FOR YOURSELF?
You're that client who invites you to lunch to discuss a project.
And then just wanders around trying to sort out what he actually
*wants* -- expecting YOU to be able to read his mind. And, guarantee
success in *his* market.
Best bet, enjoy the meal. Toss him a few bones. Help yourself to
a big slice of pie. Thank him as you depart. And, when he calls
about starting the project a week or two later, "be unavailable".
To paraphrase:
"If the person you are talking to gives you a pin number, you are talking to
the wrong person."
Even though, that is what I'm asking for, a pin number. See how you fail to comprehend the question?See how you fail to understand the answer?
Did you not understand the reference to the "box with a DB25 on it"?
Think about it.
I'm trying to get you to do just that. But you are in output mode, and have ceased all input activities.I've already showed that I understand the problem. I've acknowledged how
*I* have addressed the problem over the years. Do you think I would
build "widgets" for a problem that didn't exist? Instead of just using
an RS232 patch box?
Clearly I've faced this issue more times than you have as I seem to have
the skills to get to the answer I need without whining to USENET for
someone *else* to do that homework!
Thank you,
Ah, Officer Rick has spoken! I;m shaking in my boots!
Now, you are just being weird.Well, it was YOU who declared this to be YOUR thread and set about
creating policy for who can and who can't post, here...
Would you prefer to be called USENET Bouncer?
Here's a guy who rules out "a board and a box to be assembled"...
but is only making *20* of them!
Again, you are projecting. You know virtually none of the facts, but you feel you know more about the problem than I do. Can you not understand your error?No, can you not see how your "Give me a cookie cuz I'm too lazy to get up and get it for myself" attitude comes across?
I volunteered an accurate answer to a specific question that you asked.
I previously offered up the idea of one/two-port terminal servers
controlled by a (remotable) PC. Also, not acceptable.
You want a box, sitting on a shelf, that says "For Rick". And,
will probably complain of the color scheme chosen!
Would plugging in a wall wart be too high of a burden, as well?
What about taking it out of the packing material?
Now you are just being silly, a silly, silly boy.Exactly! That's how you come across. "Mommy, can you get me
a cookie?"
"The cookie jar is right on the counter, ricky. Help yourself"
"But I'm eating my lunch..."
Grow the f*ck up, "ricky". By *your* admission, you're neither an
engineer nor a technician. So, wander back to accounting school
and juggle some numbers in a book -- MAYBE you might have a
proclivity for that! Engineering? Not.
Wow! Such a defensive attitude. Rather than ask a single question, to learn what you don't know, you insist on being silly.You're the one asking the question -- about something you can sort out
for yourself. Did you recently break both arms in an auto accident?
Are you typing with a mouthstick?
So what do you think my background is, exactly?
Err... maybe I shouldn't be feeding the troll? Or can you actually answer the question with a reply intended to communicate?You've not sorted out who the troll is in this thread, rick.
Most others apparently have!
How long are you going to hang around waiting for an answer that
is more to your liking?
Why not call the vendor? (use the mouthstick to dial the phone)
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.And you apparently do neither. <frown>
You seem to have gone off the weird end. I wish GG had a kill file feature. At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers. You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do.
Thanks for keeping this one brief.
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for
you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
for you, eh?
I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
You just keep repeating the same stuff over, and over, without any idea of how to answer the question asked, "which pin is output"?
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!And my answer fits that dfescription.
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT SOMEONE HERE to have that information.
Do you think one of us designed the board?
Do you think the vendor watches s.e.d for questions that might be pertinent?
Do you think our accesses to the site serve up DIFFERENT information?
Do you want one of us to buy a board and 'scope the pins?
Do you want us to consult a Quija board? Seer? Tea leaves?
HOW do you expect one of us to answer this -- when you clearly can't (won't)?
You just keep repeating the same stuff over, and over, without any idea of how to answer the question asked, "which pin is output"?See above. It's been answered -- as correctly and thoroughly as can be done WITH THE INFORMATION THAT *YOU* PROVIDED!
You keep asking the same question without telling us how you expect US
to have the answer when we have LESS THAN the information that YOU have.
Or, do you just want someone to get that cookie for you?
Soon, the need will have passed and it will be a moot point, eh?
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with >>>>>> *no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how >>>>>> a responsible design would pin the connectors.
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a >>>>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label >>>>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have >>>>>>>>>> one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function >>>>>>>>>> it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT >>>>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to >>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), >>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard >>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted >>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to >>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of
one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months >> for you, eh?
Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and
Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a >>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label >>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT >>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to >>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!),
wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard >>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such
a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted >>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to >>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that
was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside.
Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like
it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually
a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE
SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months for you, eh?
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:39:06 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 7:28 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:Says a guy who spawned a 2.5 month long thread OVER A PINOUT!
On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work.And you apparently do neither. <frown>
You seem to have gone off the weird end. I wish GG had a kill file feature. At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers. You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do.
Wow! I wonder how long the thread will be about power supply voltages...
What is the power supply voltage?
On 2023-03-27, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for
you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two monthsThat was my thought wwwwaaaayyyy back!
for you, eh?
On 2023-03-27, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for
you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put
a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
for you, eh?
That was my thought wwwwaaaayyyy back!
On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to >>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), >>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard >>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such >>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted >>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to >>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that >>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside. >>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like >>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually >>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2
keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it
seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely
confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE >>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something
about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo
of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of
one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put >> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your >> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
for you, eh?
Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and
"Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!
Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a >>>>>>>>>>>> pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label >>>>>>>>>>>> telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT >>>>>>>>>> network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to >>>>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), >>>>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard >>>>>>>>>> (I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm)
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such >>>>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted >>>>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to >>>>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that >>>>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!).
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside. >>>>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would
be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like >>>>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor
and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually >>>>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2 >>>>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it >>>>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely >>>>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen
(which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE >>>>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS,
THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR
DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something >>>>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her
to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market)
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it.
Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo >>>>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump of
one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice. >> "Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels andWow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put >>>> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your >>>> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
for you, eh?
Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and
dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!
You continue to not understand the application, yet you feel qualified to recommend solutions. Yes, you are very much the sort of consultant that gives the group as a whole, a bad name.
Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
I can't waste your time. That is entirely up to you. I'm finding the rather entertaining. Nothing technical arising from the discussion with you, but at this point, it's exploring your compulsive responses to everything I post.
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:39:06 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/26/2023 7:28 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:Says a guy who spawned a 2.5 month long thread OVER A PINOUT!
On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work. >>>> And you apparently do neither. <frown>
You seem to have gone off the weird end. I wish GG had a kill file feature. At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers. You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do.
Wow! I wonder how long the thread will be about power supply voltages...
What is the power supply voltage?Blue. No, maybe a light shade of violet.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:09:01 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:39:06 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:Blue. No, maybe a light shade of violet.
On 3/26/2023 7:28 PM, Rick C wrote:What is the power supply voltage?
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:37:45 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:Says a guy who spawned a 2.5 month long thread OVER A PINOUT!
On 3/25/2023 7:26 PM, Rick C wrote:
Engineers design stuff. Technicians figure out how to make it work. >>>>>> And you apparently do neither. <frown>
You seem to have gone off the weird end. I wish GG had a kill file feature. At least you managed to post without overflowing everyone's input buffers. You seem to have a penchant for using 100 words, when 20 will do.
Wow! I wonder how long the thread will be about power supply voltages... >>>
Indeed. I think you are learning... rather slowly, but learning nonetheless.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:answered, which was the point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.And my answer fits that dfescription.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT SOMEONE HERE >> to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question. It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the realization that the question could not be
On 3/27/2023 3:24 PM, Rick C wrote:of every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server:
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
<https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to >>>>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), >>>>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
(I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm) >>>>>>>>>>
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such >>>>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted >>>>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to >>>>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that >>>>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!). >>>>>>>>>
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside. >>>>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would >>>>>>>> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like >>>>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor >>>>>>>> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually >>>>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2 >>>>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it >>>>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely >>>>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen >>>>>>>> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE >>>>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS, >>>>>>>> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR >>>>>>>> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something >>>>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her >>>>>>>> to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market) >>>>>>>
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it. >>>>>> Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo >>>>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector...
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump
one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice.Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put >>>> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards >>>> into boxes!
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
for you, eh?
Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and
"Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and
dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!
You continue to not understand the application, yet you feel qualified to recommend solutions. Yes, you are very much the sort of consultant that gives the group as a whole, a bad name.
Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
I can't waste your time. That is entirely up to you. I'm finding the rather entertaining. Nothing technical arising from the discussion with you, but at this point, it's exploring your compulsive responses to everything I post.I'm enjoying showing others your silliness. I seem to be doing a pretty good job at it!
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:37:02 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:of every stray thought that you encountered while writing the post.
On 3/27/2023 3:24 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 6:07:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 2:50 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:08:12 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 9:56 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:52 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 7:04 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:31:18 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 7:30 PM, Rick C wrote:You still fail to see how this applies to "determining which
You are off topic in this thread. Why not start your own thread, rather than polluting this one?On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:52:48 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/26/2023 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:To show that if you buy something (or, in my case, RESCUE something with
Wow! He's gone from making overly verbose posts with far more description than needed, to making replies to himself, neither of which are needed.On 3/26/2023 1:23 PM, Don Y wrote:And this is the COTS *PC* that I use as a name server: >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://mega.nz/file/Fi4hEACJ#YgVZ5tdZBjTcwW76gXC2vdgv5M6u4lTpUDAwu53Z9n8>
I build these into connector shells that are designed to support a
pair of back-to-back connectors (DB9 or 25) and then affix a label
telling me the device that it is intended to normalize (e.g., I have
one at my feet that "fixes" APC's UPS serial port) *or* the function
it is intended to perform (gender change, NULL modem, NULL 'terminal'!,
etc.)
This is the APC widget mentioned:
<https://mega.nz/file/J35SBBob#FtQznCDovhBZHJdA5OspHdMo6_DiDMjQwtCqnh3Oa54>
Note the *two* serial ports (DTE as the standard dictates), 100BaseT
network connection (it's just a name server, it doesn't need to >>>>>>>>>>>> have high throughput), PS/2 keyboard and VGA (cuz it's a PC!), >>>>>>>>>>>> wifi and USB. The four mounting holes visible are the VESA standard
(I have these mounted between my monitor and support arm) >>>>>>>>>>>>
As an ISA PC, it will run damn near any OS intended for such >>>>>>>>>>>> a platform (I run NetBSD on this box). So, all of the PC hosted >>>>>>>>>>>> AND TARGETED tools are available (I have a LFC monitor wired to >>>>>>>>>>>> one of the serial ports to discipline my time service as that >>>>>>>>>>>> was easier/cheaper to implement than any other solution!). >>>>>>>>>>>
Don, why are you here? Why are you posting in this thread? You have gone completely off topic.
Thanks,
*no* markings at all on it) for a KNOWN MARKET, then you can *infer* how
a responsible design would pin the connectors.
I rescued this item. I had no idea what sort of CPU was inside. >>>>>>>>>> Nor memory. Nor pinouts of the DB9's (which I *assumed* would >>>>>>>>>> be serial ports -- why? because the rest of the box LOOKED like >>>>>>>>>> it was trying to be a PC, albeit in a very small form factor >>>>>>>>>> and with a wonky power connector). Or, if the 8P8C was actually >>>>>>>>>> a network port. Or, if the circular DIN was intended as a PS/2 >>>>>>>>>> keyboard. Or, the DE15 as a video port.
The markings by the connectors *suggested* these uses. And, it >>>>>>>>>> seemed more likely than not...
With *no* documentation, I opted to plug in a monitor (largely >>>>>>>>>> confident that the resolution would be supported by this
"unknown" box) and keyboard and poke around the SETUP screen >>>>>>>>>> (which I *also* assumed would be available... somehow).
Why was I *not* surprised with that outcome?
You've posted a link to a device selected from a vendor
that I'm unfamiliar with and, you infer, insufficiently
documented (hey, at least you KNOW who made/makes your
device! That's more than *I* had to go on!).
Then, expect "us" to give you a definitive answer about
specifics related to that device. And, frown on those of
us that point this out to you as being "not helpful".
ALL ONE CAN TELL YOU ABOUT A RANDOM DEVICE THAT APPEARS TO HAVE >>>>>>>>>> SERIAL PORT(S) IS WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS ABOUT THOSE PORTS, >>>>>>>>>> THEIR GENDER AND THE SIGNALS ASSIGNED TO THE PINS AND THEIR >>>>>>>>>> DIRECTIONS. I suspect more than a few people learned something >>>>>>>>>> about the standard, here. And, the approach I have taken
to handle pinning differences (my "widgets").
Why aren't you talking to the vendor? Do you expect him/her >>>>>>>>>> to be reading your posts, here?
Buy something that appears to be a PC. It won't succeed
in that ubiquitous market if it differs radically from
other devices that also claim to be PCs. So, you can,
/with a high degree of confidence/, expect the connectors
to be pinned the way a PC would pin them.
Or, buy from Joe's Garage Shop -- ask for Joe.
THIS example is a testament to how I was able to make use
of a COMPLETELY undocumented device simply by making a
good assumption about the intent of the product and the
logical conclusions that flow from that assumption. The
only examination required was trying to deduce the
connections to the power connector and the associated
voltages (but, I had a pretty good feeling it wouldn't
be 7.293VDC or 28V or... again, because of the likely market) >>>>>>>>>
pin is the output".
Wow, can a person get any denser?
No, you can't. You completely fail to understand what is going on with this issue.
Hey, rick, I've got a box here. It's got a DB25 connector on it. >>>>>>>> Is it for a printer? Serial port? SCSI interface? I'd post a photo >>>>>>>> of it but the only distinguishable feature is the connector... >>>>>>>>
Surely you should be able to answer this question!
What does YOUR box have to do with my project? You are projecting your imaginings, onto a conversation that is very different from what you are talking about. But that's typical of you. At least your last few posts have not been a complete dump
one from another group. I expect one of them will turn out to be a good choice. >>>> "Multi-million dollar job". And you're dicking around with nickels and >>>> dimes? Buy 20 BRAND SPANKING NEW pc's and be done with it!Wow, had you put this much effort into YOUR problem, you could have put >>>>>> a SoC on a board and written the page of code it would take to suit your >>>>>> problem. The BALANCE of the time, you could have ASSEMBLED the boards >>>>>> into boxes!
BTW, Joe is still waiting for your call...
I'm sure he will wait a long time to come. He's probably waiting for you to stop posting off topic in this thread.
It's now 27 March. Your initial post was 17 January. A productive two months
for you, eh?
Some people think small. I'm currently negotiating a multi-million dollar job. This design is actually for my brother who needs a gadget and so far, has not been able to find anyone to help him. There are a few people who have contacted me here and
I'm enjoying showing others your silliness. I seem to be doing a pretty good >> job at it!
You continue to not understand the application, yet you feel qualified to recommend solutions. Yes, you are very much the sort of consultant that gives the group as a whole, a bad name.
Wow, what a great businessman -- not!
Thanks for your concern about the use of my time.I'd hate to see you waste it -- as you have, ours!
I can't waste your time. That is entirely up to you. I'm finding the rather entertaining. Nothing technical arising from the discussion with you, but at this point, it's exploring your compulsive responses to everything I post.
Yeah, you are good at your job I guess. Does it pay much?
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
Which is exactly the point. YOU can't answer the question, because there is not adequate information. It has been all this time that you've been spouting about DCE/DTE and convention this and all manner of formality, which is of ZERO value, because theboard is not documented as to whether it's DTE or DCE wired!
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.And my answer fits that dfescription.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question. >>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had
explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 0:05:07 UTC+2, Rick C wrote:the board is not documented as to whether it's DTE or DCE wired!
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:[snip]
Which is exactly the point. YOU can't answer the question, because there is not adequate information. It has been all this time that you've been spouting about DCE/DTE and convention this and all manner of formality, which is of ZERO value, because
Don't want to disturb your argument, but:
If it has a male connector, it's most likely DTE wired, if it has a female one, it's most likely DCE wired.
There's a ~3% chance that this guess is wrong, but whoever designs comms equipment has heard about RS-232, DCEs and DTEs, and tries to get things straight...
On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.And my answer fits that dfescription.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question. >>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had >>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead >>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in >>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than >>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed. >>
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still
fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.And my answer fits that dfescription.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question. >>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had >>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead >>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!"
You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a
board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in >>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY
ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than >>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed. >>>>
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still >>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question.
It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the
realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the
board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought
was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.And my answer fits that dfescription.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a >>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in >>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY >>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had >>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead >>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!" >>>>>>
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than >>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still >>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question. >>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the >>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the
point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the >>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought >>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:understand the issues.
On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes >>>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out.And my answer fits that dfescription.
I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question. >>>>>>>>> Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had >>>>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead >>>>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!" >>>>>>>>You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a >>>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in >>>>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY >>>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than >>>>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT
SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed. >>>>>>
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still >>>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question. >>>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the >>>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the >>>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the >>>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought >>>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own
incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David
Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.
Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly
On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own incapacities...
even the excellent and succinct feedback from David Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
On 28/03/23 14:41, Rick C wrote:understand the issues.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote: >>>> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes >>>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him >>>> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own >>>> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David >>>> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian??
what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out. >>>>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.And my answer fits that dfescription.
Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND hadYou still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a >>>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in
explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead
of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!" >>>>>>>>
response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY >>>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than
3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT >>>>>>> SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still >>>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question. >>>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the >>>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the >>>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the >>>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought >>>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display.
Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly
It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
exactly the way you seem unable to.
On 2023-03-28, Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:possibly understand the issues.
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01???AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't
It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer >> you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two >> decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
exactly the way you seem unable to.
Still misunderstanding the conversation. I wasn't asking for help
with the RS-232 signals. Never was. I was trying to make a point
that the RS-232 interface circuit did not document the I/O well enough
to know which was input and which was output.
Even though I've explained this several times now, some people aren't getting it.Maybe you didn't explain it well enough. Or maybe you attempted sarcasm/irony/innuendo/whatever and it failed :-)
You wouldn't know would you :-)
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01???AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:understand the issues.
Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly
It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
exactly the way you seem unable to.
Still misunderstanding the conversation. I wasn't asking for help
with the RS-232 signals. Never was. I was trying to make a point
that the RS-232 interface circuit did not document the I/O well enough
to know which was input and which was output.
Even though I've explained this several times now, some people aren't
getting it.
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:22:01 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:understand the issues.
On 28/03/23 14:41, Rick C wrote:
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 9:58:27 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 28/03/23 11:59, Rick C wrote:Which completely changes because you don't understand the issues being discussed.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:36:33 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote: >>>>>> On 28/03/23 09:40, Don Y wrote:I have precisely zero interest in your question or the foregoing
On 3/27/2023 3:05 PM, Rick C wrote:I long ago gave up trying to answer Ricky, though my resolve sometimes >>>>>> stumbles. He has a kind of willful incomprehension that prevents him >>>>>> from receiving input, either on technical subjects or about his own >>>>>> incapacities... even the excellent and succinct feedback from David >>>>>> Brown. I suspect it's a flavour of autism.
On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:17:29 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 3/27/2023 1:03 PM, Rick C wrote:
-------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\I was playing the game, where questions are asked, until the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person sees the absurdity of
Ah, so you're not an engineer. Not a technician. Comedian?? >>>>>>>>>> what they were saying. You still haven't figured that out. >>>>>>>>>>> I gave the only answer that anyone COULD give to your silly question.
And my answer fits that dfescription.Were you hoping someone here was USING the exact same board AND had >>>>>>>>>>> explored that issue in enough detail to yield a pin number? Instead >>>>>>>>>>> of just "Gee, I dunno. It worked WHEN I PLUGGED IN THE CABLE!" >>>>>>>>>>You still don't get it. In the post you replied to, there was a >>>>>>>>>> board referenced. It even gave the same general info YOU provided in >>>>>>>>>> response, about TXD, RXD, DTE and DCE. BUT IT DIDN'T SAY DIDDLY >>>>>>>>>> ABOUT WHICH PIN WAS INPUT AND WHICH WAS OUTPUT!
Here, Master Rick. Please, in clear English sentences of no more than >>>>>>>>> 3 syllables, explain what you want from us. And, WHY YOU EXPECT >>>>>>>>> SOMEONE HERE
to have that information.
I don't expect anything from you, and so far, you have not disappointed.
Do you think one of us designed the board?
What board? The one with insufficient information? No, but you still >>>>>>>> fail to understand that I never expected an answer to the question. >>>>>>>> It was a question that would have led any intelligent person to the >>>>>>>> realization that the question could not be answered, which was the >>>>>>>> point I was trying to make to the person who posted the link to the >>>>>>>> board. But, in your usual way, you jumped in to fix what YOU thought >>>>>>>> was the problem, while you knew no more than anyone else.
Ah, so now we know -- you're just here to waste our time.
I'm so glad you admitted that! I'm sure people will keep
that in mind as they consider whether or not to answer
future questions that you pose!
Rick, no need to answer. I'm not talking to you, but about you.
Oh, dear god. Another one who can't understand, no matter how carefully I explain it.
discussion, which I haven't read and do not wish to understand.
I'm only commenting on some of the various personality defects on display. >>>
I'm happy to receive input. But I also expect to be able to give feedback when people don't understand what is being discussed.
Interestingly, no one has provided any feedback at all, on the technical issues I've pointed out. Only that I'm wrong. DCE/DTE is what it's all about and that my personality is defective. If they don't listen to what I'm saying, they can't possibly
It is *your behaviour* that has made it impossible for anyone to answer
you to your satisfaction. Nothing else. RS232 signals bored me over two
decades ago, when I last had to worry about how things should be. We
encountered equipment that was made with every possible combination of
errors, and we all just figured it out and got on with our lives, in
exactly the way you seem unable to.
Still misunderstanding the conversation
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports. One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50 chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start over from scratch.
The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 4:53:51 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more
convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports.
One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no
handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50
chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines
and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There
are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in
a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google
hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't
useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted
out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino
nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start
over from scratch.
The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro
https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"
Thank you for the link. I can't find a way to use English on the
site. itsco.com brings up an english version of the site, but it
doesn't seem to include any equipment sales. Maybe it's not the same company?
I see companies selling these on Ebay. Do you know if they will boot
up and operate with no keyboard, mouse or video connected? I would
run these on Linux and they would have to boot stand alone.
On 2023-03-29 2:12, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 4:53:51 PM UTC-4, Uwe Bonnes wrote:
Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
The unit only really needs one serial port, but it is more
convenient to have two connectors, so I guess it needs to ports.
One port will only receive and the other only transmit, no
handshaking.
The function is pretty simple. A sensor sends a line of about 50
chars, at 9,600 bps, once per second. This box counts 20 lines
and adds a header. So nothing fancy is required of the MCU. There
are parameters set when starting operation.
The main thing I'm having trouble finding, is this needs to be in
a box as a unit, not a board and a box to be assembled. Google
hasn't been much help returning all sorts of things that aren't
useful.
Anyone know of such a box? The programming might be contracted
out, if you are interested. There's a prototype using an Arduino
nano, but some of them are flaky and it would not hurt to start
over from scratch.
The boxes sell refurbed at 49 Euro
https://www.itsco.de/thin-client-lenovo-thinkcentre-m625q-amd-7th-gen-e2-9000e-2x-1-5ghz.html
and have "2x seriell RS-232 Tiny"
Thank you for the link. I can't find a way to use English on the
site. itsco.com brings up an english version of the site, but it
doesn't seem to include any equipment sales. Maybe it's not the same company?
I see companies selling these on Ebay. Do you know if they will bootOne of the customer reviews on the site says "Das Ganze wird am LAN ohne Monitor, Tastatur und Maus betrieben" = "All of it runs on LAN without video, keyboard and mouse", under Debian 11. I would assume that also
up and operate with no keyboard, mouse or video connected? I would
run these on Linux and they would have to boot stand alone.
means it can boot up in that configuration, but the review does not say
that explicitly.
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