• Re: Concise refutation of halting problem proofs V59 [ ignorance about

    From olcott@21:1/5 to wij on Tue Feb 1 16:18:54 2022
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math

    On 2/1/2022 4:12 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 05:36:39 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 3:23 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 02:37:17 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 10:33 AM, wij wrote:
    On Tuesday, 1 February 2022 at 23:22:32 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 11:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 1/31/22 11:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 10:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 1/31/22 11:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 10:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/31/22 10:40 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 6:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/31/22 3:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 2:10 PM, Ben wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 8:06 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/30/2022 8:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/30/22 9:05 PM, olcott wrote:


    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    These statements need the conditions, that H^ goes to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H^.Qy/H^.Qn iff H goes to that corresponding state. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is syntactically specified as an input to embedded_H
    in the same way that (5,3) is syntactically specified as an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to Sum(5,3)

    Right, and the


    Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is NOT syntactically specified as an input to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H in the same way that (1,2) is NOT syntactically >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified as an input to Sum(5,3)


    Right, but perhaps you don't understand that from you above >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statement the right answer is based on if UTM(<H^>,<H^>) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts which by the definition of a UTM means if H^ applied to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <H^> Halts.


    The biggest reason for your huge mistakes is that you cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay sharply focused on a single point. It is as if you either >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have attention deficit disorder ADD or are addicted to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methamphetamine.

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    The single point is that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the input to embedded_H and
    Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the NOT the input to embedded_H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    After we have mutual agreement on this point we will move on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the points that logically follow from this one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Holy shit try to post something that makes sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Richard does not accept that the input to the copy of Linz H >>>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded at Ĥ.qx is ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩. He keeps insisting that it is Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩.



    No, but apparently you can't understand actual English words. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The INPUT to H is <H^> <H^> but the CORRECT ANSWER that H must >>>>>>>>>>>>> give is based on the behavior of H^ applied to <H^> BECAUSE OF >>>>>>>>>>>>> THE DEFINITION of H.

    In other words Sum(3,5) must return the value of Sum(7,8)? >>>>>>>>>>>
    Don't know how you get that from what I said.


    Any moron knows that a function is only accountable for its actual >>>>>>>>>>>> inputs.


    And the actual input to H is <H^> <H^> which MEANS by the >>>>>>>>>>> DEFINITION of the Halting Problem that H is being asked to decide >>>>>>>>>>> on the Halting Status of H^ applied to <H^>
    No that is not it. That is like saying "by definition" Sum(3,5) is >>>>>>>>>> being asked about Sum(7,8).

    Again your RED HERRING.

    H is being asked EXACTLY what it being asked

    H wM w -> H.Qy if M applied to w Halts, and H.Qn if it doesn't >>>>>>>>>
    AGREED?


    No that is wrong. embedded_H is being asked:
    Can the simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ possibly transition to ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ?


    If you say 'No', then you aren't doing the halting problem, as the >>>>>>> requirement I stated is EXACTLY the requirement of the Halting Problem. >>>>>> The halting problem is vague on the definition of halting, it includes >>>>>> that a machine has stopped running and that a machine cannot reach its >>>>>> final state. My definition only includes the latter.

    Sounds like a NDTM.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_Turing_machine

    It is not a NDTM, a Turing Machine only actually halts when it reaches >>>> its own final state. People not very familiar with this material may get >>>> confused and believe that a TM halts when its stops running because its >>>> simulation has been aborted. This key distinction is not typically
    specified in most halting problem proofs.
    computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters >>>> a final state. (Linz:1990:234)

    Where did Linz mention 'simulation' and 'abort'?
    I have shown how my system directly applies to the actual halting
    problem and it can be understood as correct by anyone that understands
    the halting problem at a much deeper level than rote memorization.

    The following simplifies the syntax for the definition of the Linz
    Turing machine Ĥ, it is now a single machine with a single start state.
    A copy of Linz H is embedded at Ĥ.qx.
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
    Can ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H possibly transition to
    ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ? (No means that ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt). >>> You are defining POOP [Richard Damon]
    André had recommended many online sites for you to learn or test, I forget which posts it is.
    But I think C program is more simpler.

    Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V3)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358009319_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V3
    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer





    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    André had recommended many online sites for you to learn or test, I forget which posts it is.
    Type it into a TM simulator and prove your claim, your words are meaningless.

    I have already proved that I know one key fact about halt deciders that
    no one else here seems to know.

    No one here understands that because a halt decider is a decider that it
    must compute the mapping from its inputs to an accept of reject state on
    the basis of the actual behavior specified by these inputs.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From olcott@21:1/5 to wij on Tue Feb 1 17:37:19 2022
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math

    On 2/1/2022 4:25 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 06:19:04 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 4:12 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 05:36:39 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 3:23 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 02:37:17 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 10:33 AM, wij wrote:
    On Tuesday, 1 February 2022 at 23:22:32 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 11:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 1/31/22 11:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 10:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 1/31/22 11:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 10:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/31/22 10:40 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 6:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/31/22 3:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 2:10 PM, Ben wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 8:06 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/30/2022 8:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/30/22 9:05 PM, olcott wrote:


    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    These statements need the conditions, that H^ goes to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H^.Qy/H^.Qn iff H goes to that corresponding state. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is syntactically specified as an input to embedded_H
    in the same way that (5,3) is syntactically specified as an
    input to Sum(5,3)

    Right, and the


    Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is NOT syntactically specified as an input to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H in the same way that (1,2) is NOT syntactically >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified as an input to Sum(5,3)


    Right, but perhaps you don't understand that from you above >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> statement the right answer is based on if UTM(<H^>,<H^>) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts which by the definition of a UTM means if H^ applied to
    <H^> Halts.


    The biggest reason for your huge mistakes is that you cannot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay sharply focused on a single point. It is as if you either
    have attention deficit disorder ADD or are addicted to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methamphetamine.

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    The single point is that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the input to embedded_H and
    Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the NOT the input to embedded_H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    After we have mutual agreement on this point we will move on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the points that logically follow from this one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Holy shit try to post something that makes sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Richard does not accept that the input to the copy of Linz H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded at Ĥ.qx is ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩. He keeps insisting that it is Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩.



    No, but apparently you can't understand actual English words. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The INPUT to H is <H^> <H^> but the CORRECT ANSWER that H must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> give is based on the behavior of H^ applied to <H^> BECAUSE OF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THE DEFINITION of H.

    In other words Sum(3,5) must return the value of Sum(7,8)? >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Don't know how you get that from what I said.


    Any moron knows that a function is only accountable for its actual
    inputs.


    And the actual input to H is <H^> <H^> which MEANS by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> DEFINITION of the Halting Problem that H is being asked to decide >>>>>>>>>>>>> on the Halting Status of H^ applied to <H^>
    No that is not it. That is like saying "by definition" Sum(3,5) is >>>>>>>>>>>> being asked about Sum(7,8).

    Again your RED HERRING.

    H is being asked EXACTLY what it being asked

    H wM w -> H.Qy if M applied to w Halts, and H.Qn if it doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>
    AGREED?


    No that is wrong. embedded_H is being asked:
    Can the simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ possibly transition to ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ?


    If you say 'No', then you aren't doing the halting problem, as the >>>>>>>>> requirement I stated is EXACTLY the requirement of the Halting Problem.
    The halting problem is vague on the definition of halting, it includes >>>>>>>> that a machine has stopped running and that a machine cannot reach its >>>>>>>> final state. My definition only includes the latter.

    Sounds like a NDTM.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_Turing_machine

    It is not a NDTM, a Turing Machine only actually halts when it reaches >>>>>> its own final state. People not very familiar with this material may get >>>>>> confused and believe that a TM halts when its stops running because its >>>>>> simulation has been aborted. This key distinction is not typically >>>>>> specified in most halting problem proofs.
    computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it enters
    a final state. (Linz:1990:234)

    Where did Linz mention 'simulation' and 'abort'?
    I have shown how my system directly applies to the actual halting
    problem and it can be understood as correct by anyone that understands >>>> the halting problem at a much deeper level than rote memorization.

    The following simplifies the syntax for the definition of the Linz
    Turing machine Ĥ, it is now a single machine with a single start state. >>>> A copy of Linz H is embedded at Ĥ.qx.
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
    Can ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H possibly transition to
    ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ? (No means that ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt). >>>>> You are defining POOP [Richard Damon]
    André had recommended many online sites for you to learn or test, I forget which posts it is.
    But I think C program is more simpler.

    Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V3) >>>>>>
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358009319_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V3
    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer





    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    André had recommended many online sites for you to learn or test, I forget which posts it is.
    Type it into a TM simulator and prove your claim, your words are meaningless.
    I have already proved that I know one key fact about halt deciders that
    no one else here seems to know.

    No one here understands that because a halt decider is a decider that it
    must compute the mapping from its inputs to an accept of reject state on
    the basis of the actual behavior specified by these inputs.
    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    There is no 'actual TM' until you it into a TM simulator,
    otherwise all empty talks.
    (I would expect to see you 'reinterpret' again)

    The following simplifies the syntax for the definition of the Linz
    Turing machine Ĥ, it is now a single machine with a single start state.
    A copy of Linz H is embedded at Ĥ.qx.

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    Can ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H possibly transition to ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ? (An answer of "no" means that ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt).

    Key elements rewritten today:
    Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V3)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358009319_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V3



    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Richard Damon on Tue Feb 1 19:03:54 2022
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math

    On 2/1/2022 6:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 2/1/22 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 4:12 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 05:36:39 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 3:23 PM, wij wrote:
    On Wednesday, 2 February 2022 at 02:37:17 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 2/1/2022 10:33 AM, wij wrote:
    On Tuesday, 1 February 2022 at 23:22:32 UTC+8, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 11:25 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 1/31/22 11:42 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 10:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

    On 1/31/22 11:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 10:17 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/31/22 10:40 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 6:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
    On 1/31/22 3:24 PM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 2:10 PM, Ben wrote:
    On 1/31/2022 8:06 AM, olcott wrote:
    On 1/30/2022 8:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/30/22 9:05 PM, olcott wrote:


    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    These statements need the conditions, that H^ goes to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> H^.Qy/H^.Qn iff H goes to that corresponding state. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is syntactically specified as an input to
    embedded_H
    in the same way that (5,3) is syntactically >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified as an
    input to Sum(5,3)

    Right, and the


    Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is NOT syntactically specified as an input to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H in the same way that (1,2) is NOT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> syntactically
    specified as an input to Sum(5,3)


    Right, but perhaps you don't understand that from you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> above
    statement the right answer is based on if UTM(<H^>,<H^>) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halts which by the definition of a UTM means if H^ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applied to
    <H^> Halts.


    The biggest reason for your huge mistakes is that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
    stay sharply focused on a single point. It is as if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you either
    have attention deficit disorder ADD or are addicted to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> methamphetamine.

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* embedded_H ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    The single point is that ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the input to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded_H and
    Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩ is the NOT the input to embedded_H. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    After we have mutual agreement on this point we will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> move on
    to the points that logically follow from this one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Holy shit try to post something that makes sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Richard does not accept that the input to the copy of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linz H
    embedded at Ĥ.qx is ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩. He keeps insisting that it
    is Ĥ ⟨Ĥ⟩.



    No, but apparently you can't understand actual English >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words.

    The INPUT to H is <H^> <H^> but the CORRECT ANSWER that H >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must
    give is based on the behavior of H^ applied to <H^> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BECAUSE OF
    THE DEFINITION of H.

    In other words Sum(3,5) must return the value of Sum(7,8)? >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Don't know how you get that from what I said.


    Any moron knows that a function is only accountable for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> its actual
    inputs.


    And the actual input to H is <H^> <H^> which MEANS by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> DEFINITION of the Halting Problem that H is being asked to >>>>>>>>>>>>> decide
    on the Halting Status of H^ applied to <H^>
    No that is not it. That is like saying "by definition" >>>>>>>>>>>> Sum(3,5) is
    being asked about Sum(7,8).

    Again your RED HERRING.

    H is being asked EXACTLY what it being asked

    H wM w -> H.Qy if M applied to w Halts, and H.Qn if it doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>
    AGREED?


    No that is wrong. embedded_H is being asked:
    Can the simulated ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ possibly transition to
    ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ?


    If you say 'No', then you aren't doing the halting problem, as the >>>>>>>>> requirement I stated is EXACTLY the requirement of the Halting >>>>>>>>> Problem.
    The halting problem is vague on the definition of halting, it
    includes
    that a machine has stopped running and that a machine cannot
    reach its
    final state. My definition only includes the latter.

    Sounds like a NDTM.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondeterministic_Turing_machine

    It is not a NDTM, a Turing Machine only actually halts when it
    reaches
    its own final state. People not very familiar with this material
    may get
    confused and believe that a TM halts when its stops running
    because its
    simulation has been aborted. This key distinction is not typically >>>>>> specified in most halting problem proofs.
    computation that halts … the Turing machine will halt whenever it >>>>>> enters
    a final state. (Linz:1990:234)

    Where did Linz mention 'simulation' and 'abort'?
    I have shown how my system directly applies to the actual halting
    problem and it can be understood as correct by anyone that understands >>>> the halting problem at a much deeper level than rote memorization.

    The following simplifies the syntax for the definition of the Linz
    Turing machine Ĥ, it is now a single machine with a single start state. >>>> A copy of Linz H is embedded at Ĥ.qx.
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qy ∞
    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
    Can ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H possibly transition to
    ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ? (No means that ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ does not halt). >>>>> You are defining POOP [Richard Damon]
    André had recommended many online sites for you to learn or test, I >>>>> forget which posts it is.
    But I think C program is more simpler.

    Halting problem undecidability and infinitely nested simulation (V3) >>>>>>
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358009319_Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation_V3

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer





    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    André had recommended many online sites for you to learn or test, I
    forget which posts it is.
    Type it into a TM simulator and prove your claim, your words are
    meaningless.

    I have already proved that I know one key fact about halt deciders
    that no one else here seems to know.

    No one here understands that because a halt decider is a decider that
    it must compute the mapping from its inputs to an accept of reject
    state on the basis of the actual behavior specified by these inputs.


    And the ACTUAL BEHAVIOR of the input <H^> <H^> is EXACTLY the behavior
    of H^ applied to <H^> which does Halt if H goes to H.Qn.


    Can ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ simulated by embedded_H possibly transition to ⟨Ĥ⟩.qn ?

    An answer of "no" means that ⟨Ĥ⟩ applied to ⟨Ĥ⟩ never halts, and nothing
    in the universe can possibly overcome this.

    If your dog bites your leg, then the answer to the question: Did your
    dog bite your leg? is Yes even if everyone else in the universe disagrees.


    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    Talent hits a target no one else can hit;
    Genius hits a target no one else can see.
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)