• Re: H(P,P)==0 is correct for every simulating halt decider H --- V2 [ u

    From olcott@21:1/5 to Ben Bacarisse on Wed Nov 3 10:47:14 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 11/2/2021 10:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> writes:

    On 11/2/2021 12:25 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

    On 11/2/2021 11:15 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

    As long as H(P,P)==0 is correct none of my other "errors" are of any >>>>>> consequence what-so-ever.

    That's why I said one error really count: H(P,P)==0 is not correct
    because P(P) halts. How is it that you can keep ignoring this?

    It is a verified fact that for every possible (abort / do not abort)
    behavior of every possible encoding of simulating halt decider H that
    the input to H(P,P) never reaches its final state.
    H(P,P)==0 is wrong because P(P) halts. You keep trying to explain some
    other decision problem that you think H is getting right. For the
    halting problem -- the one you've been "studying" for more than 14 years >>> -- H(P,P)==0 is only correct if P(P) does not halt and you've told us
    that is does.

    It is like I am telling there are no integers between 1 and 2 and you
    just don't believe it.
    No, its like you are tell me that H(P,P)==false is the right answer from >>> a halt decider when P(P) is a halting computation. In fact it's very
    much like that. Almost exactly like that in fact.

    It seems to be intuitively true that H(P,P) should report that its
    input halts because P(P) halts.
    No. I have no intuition about what you even mean because inputs don't
    do anything. What is true by definition (no intuition required) is that >>> H(P,P) should be false only if P(P) does not halt.

    This intuition
    I don't have that intuition. What "the input" does is meaningless.

    Every halt decider is ONLY tasked with determining the behavior of its
    input.

    No. Every halt decider is tasked with determining the behaviour of the computation represented by its input. That's why H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
    The arguments in that call represent the halting computation P(P).


    THE IS THE MOST RECENT UPDATE TO THE CRITERION MEASURE
    A halt decider only need answer whether or not the correct pure
    simulation of its input would ever reach a final state of this input by
    a simulating halt decider.

    This addresses two issues, it focuses analysis on the correct point in
    the execution trace.

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
    It does not matter whether or not the halt decider at Ĥ.qx halts or not
    the only thing that matters is whether or not the simulation of the
    input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ever reaches a final state.

    It acknowledges that inputs themselves only have behavior while they are simulated.

    That you say otherwise is very stupid.

    I say otherwise because I know what the halting problem is, and because
    I want to be careful about the details. You are deliberately not
    talking about what the input represents because you know H is wrong
    about that computation. This shift in wording is all you have left
    after 14 years of being wrong about halting.



    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 3 11:14:12 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic, sci.math

    On 11/3/2021 11:00 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 09:47, olcott wrote:

    THE IS THE MOST RECENT UPDATE TO THE CRITERION MEASURE
    A halt decider only need answer whether or not the correct pure
    simulation of its input would ever reach a final state of this input
    by a simulating halt decider.

    The halting problem already defines what the criterion used by a halt
    decider must be. You don't get to update it if that's the problem you
    want to work on.

    André


    No one here seems capable of understanding is that when a halt decider
    does correctly decide the halt status of its input then its input has
    had its halt status correctly decided.

    Even Linz got confused about this.

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn
    It does not matter whether or not the halt decider at Ĥ.qx halts or not
    the only thing that matters is whether or not the simulation of the
    input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ever reaches a final state.

    The mistake is just like putting Bill Smith in jail for robbing a liquor
    store because Bill Jones did Rob a liquor store.

    As long as a halt decider does correctly decide the halt status of its
    input nothing else in the universe can show that the halt decider is
    incorrect.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Ben Bacarisse on Wed Nov 3 11:25:27 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 11/3/2021 11:15 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

    On 11/2/2021 10:17 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> writes:

    Every halt decider is ONLY tasked with determining the behavior of its >>>> input.

    No. Every halt decider is tasked with determining the behaviour of the
    computation represented by its input. That's why H(P,P)==0 is wrong.
    The arguments in that call represent the halting computation P(P).

    THE IS THE MOST RECENT UPDATE TO THE CRITERION MEASURE
    A halt decider only need answer whether or not the correct pure
    simulation of its input would ever reach a final state of this input
    by a simulating halt decider.

    The halting problem is already defined, thank you. H(P,P) == false is
    wrong because P(P) halts.


    So in other words when H correctly determines that its input never
    reaches its final state the fact that some other entirely different
    computation does reach its final state proves that H is wrong?

    H1(P,P) is computationally equivalent to P(P)
    H(P,P) is NOT computationally equivalent to either P(P) or H1(P,P).


    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to Ben Bacarisse on Wed Nov 3 11:33:20 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 11/3/2021 11:25 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
    olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> writes:

    No one here seems capable of understanding is that when a halt decider
    does correctly decide the halt status of its input then its input has
    had its halt status correctly decided.

    Don't be silly. No one disputes that (thought the wording is poor).
    The only disagreement is on what the correct answer is. Since P(P)
    halts and H(P,P) == false, H is not deciding correctly.


    THE MOST RECENT UPDATE TO THE CRITERION MEASURE
    A halt decider only need answer whether or not the correct pure
    simulation of its input would ever reach a final state of this input by
    a simulating halt decider.

    Even Linz got confused about this:

    Ĥ.q0 ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn

    It does not matter whether or not the halt decider at Ĥ.qx halts or not
    the only thing that matters is whether or not the simulation of the
    input to Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ever reaches a final state.

    Top of page 320
    https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_315-320.pdf

    Linz believes that when Ĥ.qx ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⟨Ĥ⟩ ⊢* Ĥ.qn because its input never
    halts this is nonsense because Ĥ does halt.

    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 3 13:23:36 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 11/3/2021 12:44 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 11:19, olcott wrote:
    On 11/3/2021 12:09 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 10:14, olcott wrote:
    On 11/3/2021 11:00 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 09:47, olcott wrote:

    THE IS THE MOST RECENT UPDATE TO THE CRITERION MEASURE
    A halt decider only need answer whether or not the correct pure
    simulation of its input would ever reach a final state of this
    input by a simulating halt decider.

    The halting problem already defines what the criterion used by a
    halt decider must be. You don't get to update it if that's the
    problem you want to work on.

    André


    No one here seems capable of understanding is that when a halt
    decider does correctly decide the halt status of its input then its
    input has had its halt status correctly decided.

    Right. And since yours doesn't correctly decide the halt status of
    its input then its input has not had its halt status correctly decided.


    The only criteria for correctly deciding the halt status of the actual
    input is whether or not the correct pure simulation of this input
    would ever reach a final state.

    Every other criteria changes the subject to an entirely different
    comutation.


    Both 'halting problem' and 'halt decider' were defined before you were
    born by people who actually UNDERSTOOD the topic.

    The definitions of these things are precise, unambiguous, and clearly indicate the actual criterion which a halt decider must use in making
    its decision. That criterion makes no reference to pure simulations. It refers only to whether the computation represented by the input string
    halts.


    It is impossible for any halt decider to be incorrect when the correct
    pure simulation of its input never halts and it reports not halting.




    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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  • From olcott@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 3 16:18:51 2021
    XPost: comp.theory, sci.logic

    On 11/3/2021 4:03 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 14:02, olcott wrote:
    On 11/3/2021 2:02 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 12:23, olcott wrote:
    On 11/3/2021 12:44 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 11:19, olcott wrote:
    On 11/3/2021 12:09 PM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 10:14, olcott wrote:
    On 11/3/2021 11:00 AM, André G. Isaak wrote:
    On 2021-11-03 09:47, olcott wrote:

    THE IS THE MOST RECENT UPDATE TO THE CRITERION MEASURE
    A halt decider only need answer whether or not the correct >>>>>>>>>> pure simulation of its input would ever reach a final state of >>>>>>>>>> this input by a simulating halt decider.

    The halting problem already defines what the criterion used by >>>>>>>>> a halt decider must be. You don't get to update it if that's >>>>>>>>> the problem you want to work on.

    André


    No one here seems capable of understanding is that when a halt >>>>>>>> decider does correctly decide the halt status of its input then >>>>>>>> its input has had its halt status correctly decided.

    Right. And since yours doesn't correctly decide the halt status
    of its input then its input has not had its halt status correctly >>>>>>> decided.


    The only criteria for correctly deciding the halt status of the
    actual input is whether or not the correct pure simulation of this >>>>>> input would ever reach a final state.

    Every other criteria changes the subject to an entirely different
    comutation.


    Both 'halting problem' and 'halt decider' were defined before you
    were born by people who actually UNDERSTOOD the topic.

    The definitions of these things are precise, unambiguous, and
    clearly indicate the actual criterion which a halt decider must use
    in making its decision. That criterion makes no reference to pure
    simulations. It refers only to whether the computation represented
    by the input string halts.


    It is impossible for any halt decider to be incorrect when the
    correct pure simulation of its input never halts and it reports not
    halting.

    Not if it contradicts the actual correct answer as determined by the
    criterion which defines the halting problem since that criterion
    alone determines which answer is correct.
    It is impossible for any halt decider to be incorrect when the correct
    pure simulation of its input never halts and it reports not halting.

    But your halt decider doesn't implement a 'pure simulation' under any reasonable definition of the term.

    _P()
    [00000c36](01) 55 push ebp
    [00000c37](02) 8bec mov ebp,esp
    [00000c39](03) 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08] // 2nd Param
    [00000c3c](01) 50 push eax
    [00000c3d](03) 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08] // 1st Param
    [00000c40](01) 51 push ecx
    [00000c41](05) e820fdffff call 00000966 // call H
    [00000c46](03) 83c408 add esp,+08
    [00000c49](02) 85c0 test eax,eax
    [00000c4b](02) 7402 jz 00000c4f
    [00000c4d](02) ebfe jmp 00000c4d
    [00000c4f](01) 5d pop ebp
    [00000c50](01) c3 ret
    Size in bytes:(0027) [00000c50]

    Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c36

    machine stack stack machine assembly
    address address data code language
    ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= [00000c36][002117ca][002117ce] 55 push ebp [00000c37][002117ca][002117ce] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00000c39][002117ca][002117ce] 8b4508 mov eax,[ebp+08] [00000c3c][002117c6][00000c36] 50 push eax // push P [00000c3d][002117c6][00000c36] 8b4d08 mov ecx,[ebp+08] [00000c40][002117c2][00000c36] 51 push ecx // push P [00000c41][002117be][00000c46] e820fdffff call 00000966 // call H(P,P)

    We can perfectly know that H(P,P) does precisely simulate the first
    seven instructions of P when it simulates the first seven instructions
    of P.

    We can also know that when it perfectly repeats this sequence again that
    it has acted as a pure simulator for the execution of these two sequences.


    --
    Copyright 2021 Pete Olcott

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre
    minds." Einstein

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